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This Planet Earth (You'all may never speak to me again)

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18:55 / 05.07.04

bengali- don`t worry it`s very common. Book learning isn`t good enough though. You need to collect your own and leave it to rot. The rush you get from seeing your first blue flame is incredible.

18:57 / 05.07.04

not bengali but mr.
but you knew that.

ahem.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:22 / 05.07.04

*Clue Fairy rushes up in sparkly blue pinafore, waving pompoms and twirling baton*

Clue Fairy: Did we get to the part where they get a clue yet? Did we? Did we?

*Clue Fairy looks around thread and slumps in despair, pompoms visibly wilting. She dawdles off, hyacinth curls bowed, a little tear trembling bravely at the corner of her eye.*

See what you've done? See what you've done? You've made the Clue Fairy cry! Poor Clue Fairy.

20:05 / 05.07.04

Sorry clue fairy.
I don`t have a clue.
I`ll listen and try to learn.
I suspect I`ll never have a clue. ( the blue flame requires experience)
But given the hostility on this thread if I turned up at a pride march bearing a " I`m white, rich and straight but think these people are right" then I`d be torn apart by the march even before the NF reached me.
I`m wrong. I know I`m wrong. I`ll put time and effort into learning why. It might take a little patience coz I`m a little stupid.
NOOOOOOOOO
*claps hands as fast as possible*
(btw `Will and Grace` is as annoying as `friends` )

20:23 / 05.07.04

I`m white, rich and straight but think these people are right.

Less circularly, if this thread had opened discussion with a similar sentiment, it might not have produced the same level of "hostility"...

20:42 / 05.07.04

20:52 / 05.07.04

Damn, that is beautiful, IAO.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:00 / 05.07.04

Way-ull, that doesn't exactly mean that gay men and lesbians (bwhahaahah!) should be removed from our screens, now, does it? Maybe it just means that that particular TV show is not to your taste? Especially given that the actor playing Will is not in fact gay.

These are quite big issues, Mr S, and I don't think Will and grace is in itself a sufficient critical grounding. Fortunately, I've linked to whole *bunch* of threads you might want to take a look at which will add to your knowledge.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:10 / 05.07.04

Oh, and a lot of people at Pride are white and straight, and rich in the greater scheme of things. They fit in just fine. A T-shirt saying "I don't mind what you lot do to each other, but why do you expect me to live in a world where Pride parades exist?" might not do so well.

21:10 / 05.07.04

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:15 / 05.07.04

Especially given that the actor playing Will is not in fact gay.

You mean that someone off of Will and Grace *is* in fact gay?

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:24 / 05.07.04

No idea, sorry. I only know that Willdy McWillWill is apparently avowedly not. My point was, I guess, that it isn't a documentary. Nor is it any more unavoidable than any Pride March not scheduled for one's living room.

21:36 / 05.07.04

*puzzled* Are you suggesting that television ,might not give an accurate portrayal of non-hetro culture?

21:45 / 05.07.04

Does television give an accurate portrayal of anything?

22:04 / 05.07.04

Yes.

Terry Nutkins really does know a lot about animals.

22:12 / 05.07.04

Fair point. Since I don`t have experience or television (and all my illusions about shrek are destroyed) I`ll just have to take my examples of non-hetro interaction from this thread.

quote

points.

JAMM -2
non hetro -1
lith -4
spong -7

22:15 / 05.07.04

Well, Jack Hargreaves used to be very accurate about drainage in low lying areas, and vintage agricultural implements.
That was a while ago, though.

Damn. Wasn't going to get sucked in here. While I'm here, let me state that I can understand JAMM's simplistic "wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice" philosophy, but it doesn't work. I think solipsistic is the word I'm looking for.

Even as a hetero-male who has been effectively celibate for nngh[cough] years (due to the fact that I seem to only be attracted to women who turn out to be lesbian or happily married), I understand that sexual identification is extremely important in self-definition whether you like it or not. I do tend to refer to lesbian friends as 'gay' (one prefers 'queer', one 'lesbian', another 'Steps fan'), but I recognise I'm using lazy shorthand.

I would be happy to hear myself described as 'straight', 'celibate', 'desperate', 'a bit effeminate', 'gossipy old queen' and so on by people in differing situations, but to tell me that all these are synonymous with some other term would be a big slap in my face, let alone kinda stupid. Yup. Solipsism. That's the word.

22:46 / 05.07.04

Nor is it any more unavoidable than any Pride March not schedule for one's living room.

*switches on TV*

fucking will and grace again

fucking will and grace again

definitely less unavoidable

In fact, if anyone wants to schedule a Pride march for my living room RIGHT NOW, please do. Bring on the penis costumes.

23:01 / 05.07.04

hold on, I mean "less avoidable"

Regrettable Juvenilia

08:15 / 06.07.04

Here's a thought: how about the people who have represented JAMM's point of view as "wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice" and "I'm rich, white and straight but agree with these people" go back and actually read the last couple of paragraphs of his original post?

08:15 / 06.07.04

I feel the same way as JAMM if I watch more than 30 seconds of `Will and Grace` (or Graham Norton...or big brother).

Well, but then most TV makes me feel the same way as JAMM, except about heterosexuals ("Fuck off! I know you're straight, you've demonstrated it at some length, now leave me alone!"). I mean, if you really want to see a sexual group shout and shout and shout and shout about how legitimate and normal they are, pathetically and panickedly begging for acceptance in the face of an ill-defined threat, watch a random advert break, in which you will see - for example - heterosexual teddy bears advertising Velux windows ("Yes, I know, they're teddy bears. They have neither genitalia nor chromosomes. But they cuddle, so we'd better give one of them a pink hair ribbon and the other one a bowler hat or something, in case anyone could for a MOMENT think that non-heterosexuality was taking up air space in the form of teddy bears").

Anyway, so yeah, I get pissed off by people with a different sexual orientation from mine loudly and repeatedly demanding my benevolent attention and support. I just tend not to go on and on about it - in part because if I mentioned it every time it happened I would die of exhaustion within a week. (Damn, I wish I could remember where Mister Disco posted that brilliant rant about not liking penis-in-vagina sex but not feeling the need to say "Eww! Icky!" every time it was alluded to.)

given the hostility on this thread if I turned up at a pride march bearing a " I`m white, rich and straight but think these people are right" then I`d be torn apart by the march even before the NF reached me.

Um... the hostility on this thread is mostly directed towards homophobia. I mean, you might be clueless, but you do know there's a difference between heterosexuality and homophobia, don't you? That not all heterosexuals consider that their sexual orientation entails having to defend their right to be homophobic wankers? Some of them - I"m sure I've been told - think heterosexuality is about having sex with opposite-sex people, not about making sure they never have to acknowledge the existence of queers (or, of course, in JAMM's case, trans people, animals, plants, or any other life form than himself... did someone say solipsist?)

We're The Great Old Ones Now

08:35 / 06.07.04

Yes. Actually, I think I deleted the part where I used the word itself. In fact, it's a weird involuted egocentrism; JAMM perceives and acknowledges the world, but it has interest for him only in so far as it makes him feel bad. So he finds ways to poke it with sharp sticks. A few months ago, he was contemplating suicide as the ultimate guilt trip. Now he's playing 'kick the tiger'.

Look, I know you're all very pissed off, but you're kinda putting mashed potatoes in the blender here.

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:51 / 06.07.04

Yes, Mink. However.

It can reasonably be said that Skeletor is his own worst enemy. His plans are often over-complex, he makes poor use of the resources at his disposal, and his poor industrial relations give his minions little incentive to go the extra mile for him, or his allies to remain his allies.

However, he is also in a very real sense He-Man's worst enemy as well. With the trying to conquer Eternia, lay open the secrets of Castle Grayskull and enslave King Randor stuff. Yes? The two can coexist.

So, if JAMM has some mental problems or issues that make him find things about the world that make him unhappy, that is terribly sad. However, if in doing so he feels the need to spill half-witted homophobic and transphobic bullshit across Barbelith, and then cry "PC gone mad" when his bullshit is called, I don't think we owe him a duty of care not to point out a) that this is further bullshit or b) that we are not necessarily compelled to allow this bullshit to go unchallenged out of pity.

If you feel that JAMM has insurmountable mental problems, and as such should be treated as a gibbering uncle in the corner, indulged and ignored in equal measure, I think that is a perfectly noble personal decision. However, it is not the course we have adopted with many other people who have turned up here with mental problems or personal issues that have made them spout racist, homophobic and other bullshit - Laila, the Fetch and others - and I do not imagine it is our only justifiable response.

09:07 / 06.07.04

I know you're all very pissed off, but you're kinda putting mashed potatoes in the blender here.

Yeahyeahyeah, but oddly enough, Celibate, JAMM isn't the only person whose motivation in posting in this thread is determined by extratextual considerations. I'm too tired and have too little headspace left over from my evil thesis to contribute anything to any of the many, many, interesting and worthwhile threads on the board, so I'm just ranting here occasionally instead of playing Minesweeper in the breaks between paragraphs. Barbelith has room for more than one fuck-up at a time goddamnit!

Hmm. I seem to have become a late-blooming fuckwad.

pointless and uncalled for

09:13 / 06.07.04

Hmm. I seem to have become a late-blooming fuckwad.

Dammit, now I'm going to have to run up another T-Shirt.

09:58 / 06.07.04

Tannce, I don't believe you used Skeletor to make a point.
What's even worse is that is was a good point.
As for Jamm, I'm not even going to bother dignifying his rant with a response especially when other people have already done so much more eloquently than I could.

pointless and uncalled for

10:05 / 06.07.04

Tannce is very good at using children's cartoons of the late eighties/early nineties do illustrate points and arguments.

I understand he uses a combination of Lost Cities of Gold and Dogtanian & the The Muskahounds to demonstrate corrollaries between Jungian contexts and Theocrates.

10:31 / 06.07.04

heh. Now that's a lecture I'd pay to see.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

10:48 / 06.07.04

Tannce - to continue the analogy, the question is whether He-Man's strategy for dealing with Skeletor is particularly useful. Skeletor evolves an evil plot, calls on his minions, and seeks his enemy's destruction - albeit with a somewhat half-hearted approach to final victory which suggests he has begun to define himself in terms of conflict with He-Man and connives in his own defeat to avoid the loneliness of success.

He-Man, who has once again been content to allow Skeletor to fester until this new crisis, meets the charge headlong, fights his nemesis to a standstill, and with the same unhealthy attachment to conflict displayed by his antagonist, makes no effort to find the root of the problem or put in place any kind of long term solution. He humiliates the foe and drives him off to fester some more.

The thing is that Skeletor is a preventable disaster. As you say, he's shockingly inept. The reason He-Man has such trouble with him (and He-Man's friends get hurt) is that his approach is just as futile. They're both in love with big gestures. (I feel I should point out that He-Man's symbol is a Sword which transforms him from a wimp into a muscle-bound steroid abuser, and that he spends his time manfully astride an enlarged pussy.) It ought to be possible for Greyskull folks to befriend Skeletor's sidekicks on a permanent basis - most of them don't like Skeletor, and by and large they're ugly and dumb and afraid rather than evil. It's entirely possible that Skeletor himself is beyond redemption - but we'll never know, because He-Man never spends any time finding out why Skeletor is so intent on taking him down. He just beats up on him, because Skeletor's apparently irredeemably evil. Even if that's so, however, it's far safer to be talking to him than it is to drive him off, because he just goes and finds some new arcane secret with which to threaten the world.

I think that about wraps it up for He-Man analogies for me...

Deva: I prefer 'Mink', I think. And of course, I take your point. Try to remember that you are a goddess, a babe, and a Wise One - I imagine it's easier for the rest of us to see that than it is for you under the guns of the PhD.

11:07 / 06.07.04

I prefer 'Mink', I think

Sorry; noted. Wasn't trying to wind you up, btw.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

11:23 / 06.07.04

Never even crossed my mind!

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:33 / 06.07.04

But that analogy doesn't work, because the majority of responses to JAMM haven't been about beating him up: Tance of Disrespect, for example, has offered lots of suggestions of reading material, other people have invited JAMM to unpack his opinions, and suggested in a far from aggressive manner why he is being perceived as intolerant and why he might want to rethink his intolerance. Those of us who just reached for our revolvers are in a minority...

We're The Great Old Ones Now

11:55 / 06.07.04

Qualitative sampling:

Why do twats post this kind of shit on Barbelith in the first place?

Your post is the most stupid thing I've read from someone who I thought was intelligent for a long time.

Just be a nice chappie and fuck the hell off, eh?

Now, we could try to explain why you are being cretinous, but I really don't see much point.

Quantitative sampling:

Number of responses before bengali gave the first one which wasn't actually a direct attack: 8

First constructive response by Seldom Killer after: 11 posts not including JAMM's own.

Number of posts following Killer's lead: 3

Number of posts excoriating JAMM immediately thereafter: 7

...And so on. I couldn't be bothered to count the uses of the terms "halfwit", "cockdrip" and "bollocks", but there are quite a few even among the reasonable posts. The vast majority of the thread is devoted to slamming JAMM. Now, JAMM's wrong. Okay? JAMM is entirely, grievously mistaken and I strongly suspect is well aware of this. But this is, no question, more the He-Man approach to conflict res. than anything more effective or dignified.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

12:06 / 06.07.04

Flyboy:

as a matter of interest, did you actually mean to respond to this thread with a remark about JAMM being too ugly to fuck? Crissakes, mate, that's pretty wild, even for you in rant mode.

12:36 / 06.07.04

But, CM, given that JAMM started this thread in a deliberately combative and controversial way, shouldn't people be allowed to respond in a similar fashion? I think his inital post merited the disgust it met, and don't see why people should be expected to take a softly-softly approach every time someone posts such a rant. Moreover I don't think that's necessarily the reponse that JAMM wanted - as the thread title makes clear, he knew that his post was likely to meet with a negative response, and went ahead and posted it anyway.

Having said that, I thought that some of the responses have been well over the top; but most people have explained exactly why they are so pissed off.

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