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Marvel Mythology Surgery

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00:55 / 17.04.04

Explaining Iron Man: "Event" comics at their worst. Kurt Busiek later explained away the entire thing as a really complicated fakeout.

Where are they now?

Luke Cage: In Bendis's new book THE PULSE.

Iron Fist: Just got a new title.

Deathlock: Reinvented twice, a third version was scheduled during the Jemas regime, but never saw the light of day.

03:56 / 17.04.04

Why does the Watcher of Earth keep interfering with stuff? Shouldn't he have been fired by now or something?

05:41 / 17.04.04

just for fun, i'm going to throw in the fact that Nate, himself, was the child yet another alternate timeline Jean Grey, and was in some sense an alternate version of Cable himself. Cable being Scott and Maddie's son, sent into the future as a baby to be raised by a cult founded by Rachel. if i recall correctly, the main timeline Scott and Jean went forward into the future on their honeymoon or something to raise baby Cable, that is before he was sent back in time to the present to fight Apocalypse, who used to be Mr. Sinister's boss and gave baby Cable the disease which forced Scott to send him into the future in the first place.

Holy crap. The sad thing is this stuff is all so contrived, and yet I really want to read it now. I'd like to see Marvel pick up the pace of Essential X-Men, and get a lot more of at least the Claremont run back in print.

And about Mr. Sinister, yes the name is awful, but he was one cool looking mofo.

Sure, he's got a flat head, but you've still got to respect the look.

11:12 / 17.04.04

Well, Warlock (the technorganic alien, not Adam Warlock) came back in a Doug Ramsey-like form during the Ellis Excalibur run

That same figure was seen in the Days of Future Present storyline as a team member of Franklin Richards.

If memory serves Warlock was killed during X-tinction Agenda and his ashes were sprinkled over Doug's grave. Like none of the super brains would of thought "Technorganis alien body parts over organic material. Nah it will be fine".

And I was also going to mention Bucky as the head of the Pantheon but Flowers beat me to it.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

11:57 / 17.04.04

>Why does the Watcher of Earth keep interfering with stuff? Shouldn't he have been fired by now or something?

He was put on trial by other Watchers back in the 70's, in the post-Starlin Captain Marvel. At the end of the trial, Uatu re-affirms his pledge not to interfere, but most writers who use him either use him as a "This is a big deal" road sign or a Deux Ex Machina.

12:07 / 17.04.04

As I recall, the Watcher WAS put on trial, in an issue of Captain Marvel, but managed to get put on probation. Like many details, it's been quietly ignored.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

12:31 / 17.04.04

And didn't they kill off all the Watchers bar Uatu in Fantastic Four a few years back?

Matthew Fluxington

13:06 / 17.04.04

I'd just like to point out that most of the stuff in this thread was already covered in the Geeky X-Men Thread.

Also: I'm surprised that no one has given the simple NXM answer for why Jean is the Phoenix - it's her extreme telekinesis, which gives her godlike control over all matter.

Matthew Fluxington

13:08 / 17.04.04

And whoever thinks that "Mister Sinister" isn't a great name is nuts. That name is so classic! It's so much more like what a real villain would call himself, were he to have any selfawareness. Do you seriously prefer names like "Stryfe" or "Wildklaw"?

17:04 / 17.04.04

That is sort of true. I don't think many villains would be so concerned with the spelling that they'd want to specify, "and that's Wildklaw with a K."

18:25 / 17.04.04

Perhaps they're just poorly educated.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

20:56 / 17.04.04

When they brought Mister Sinister back after Claremont left (by cunningly saying that Mister Sinister wasn't vulnerable to Cyclops at all, that was just a clone which he let get destroyed because he was bored), I think it was implied that he chose the name because he was deliberately taking the piss out of the heroes and their silly names.

03:54 / 18.04.04

Whatever happened to Shang Chi, Master of Kung Fu? I used to seriously dig the run by Doug Moench and Gene Day.

And speaking of Moench, where's Moon Knight?

And what's Thundra up to?

08:06 / 18.04.04

Why does Mr Sinister look like Colossus in drag ?

12:25 / 18.04.04

Right I'm a big spiderman fan, but however have no idea what the fuck was the deal with the whole clone saga thing. So what the fuck was that all about?

Dan Fish - @Fish1k

12:38 / 18.04.04

Cloce saga questions are answered HERE.

I never read the clone saga, but still found this 35 part summation very interesting, if only for the insight into Marvel editorial practices.

13:10 / 18.04.04

Lets see:

Shang Chi had a mini a year or so ago.

Last I saw Moon Knight was in the short-lived MARVEL KNIGHTS title.

Thundra got married and settled down to have a bunch of little barbarians.

And (according to Earth X) Sinister IS Colossus in drag

16:35 / 18.04.04

And (according to Earth X) Sinister IS Colossus in drag

Seriously? I must know more.

And in general, how is the whole Earth X series?

17:30 / 18.04.04

Earth X, the first book, was amazing. It was an intelligent look at synthesizing the different gaffes that Marvel calls "continuity". The Earth X trilogy seemed to be going somewhere weird and new with Universe X, but fell apart thematically by the time it got to Paradise X.

I DID NOT LIKE the evil-ing of various X-Men characters... Kurt's Belasco-ing was explained in detail, but Colossus was implied to have had his "soul" saved by Illyana somehow and transported back to Victorian England(?), but it was never followed up on. There were a lot of non-followed up things, which flew in the face of what made the stories cool in the first place... the fact that things GOT EXPLAINED.

06:58 / 19.04.04

A: Wasn't Galactus a herald at one point as well, who usurped his master and took his power (and his hunger).

Q1: Seeing that almost all the founding members of the Avengers have lame spin-off characters, Captain America has The USAgent, Thor had Thunderstrike, Iron Man has War Machine, Hulk has She-Hulk and Ant-Man has...Ant-Man. Who was or is The Wasps lame-o offshoot?

Q2: During the Secret Wars, Magneto was grouped with the heroes even though he was dressed in is classic villain costume (not his peace-loving reformed Purple and white number). I even remember him being a villain before they were whisked away. What was the deal?

Q3: Is it true that the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are the High Evolutionary’s grandchildren?

Q4: What is the difference between Carol Danvers and Sharon Venture? Do they have exactly the same powers (apart from the obvious Binary thing) and did they get them from in the same way?

Q5: In Earth X, was that Clea that became the female Dr. Strange (I didn't read it but I saw the pages)? What was here super-power anyway, was she a sorcerer like Stephen Strange?

10:01 / 19.04.04

To Metal Jesus:

1) For the same reason Max Zorn had a thing for May Day. Evil dudes love mean-looking black boy ladies...

2) *

3) *

To kovacs:

The DCU has no continuity and is comparable to someone eating a few crap stories and tacky comic art and vomiting it onto glossy paper. The DCU is soulless and would not be around today if Superman and Batman weren't successful. The DCU has characters like the Elongated Man and Despero and that starfish villain. It also had twelve different Hawkman's with the same name and different histories. A Vertigo thread perhaps but one dedicated to Booster Gold and Green Flame and the rest of that man glue...maybe not.

Q: Is Adam X (the supposed third Summers brother) a secret love child that Christopher Summers had with some random Shi'Ar lady? Was that ever revealed? He is a Summers and he's got the Shi'Ar face tattoo thing going for him so it would make sense. If he isn't the third then who, pray tell, is this precocious third Summers (and it's not Rachel, I know that)?

Q: Is Madelyne Pryor what Jean would have turned into if she didn’t have parents and if she didn’t join the X-Men (and found a place to belong)? Was Madelyne Pryor an aspect of Jeans personality that she kept suppressed? This mean, psychic girl that Sinister took and named Madelyne. Is that what happened when the Dark Phoenix emerged? The Phoenix found this locked door in Jean’s head and kicked it down….

10:59 / 19.04.04

A: Wasn't Galactus a herald at one point as well, who usurped his master and took his power (and his hunger).

No.

Q1: Seeing that almost all the founding members of the Avengers have lame spin-off characters, Captain America has The USAgent, Thor had Thunderstrike, Iron Man has War Machine, Hulk has She-Hulk and Ant-Man has...Ant-Man. Who was or is The Wasps lame-o offshoot?

Yellowjacket II (Rita DeMara)

Q2: During the Secret Wars, Magneto was grouped with the heroes even though he was dressed in is classic villain costume (not his peace-loving reformed Purple and white number). I even remember him being a villain before they were whisked away. What was the deal?

No mutants among the villains?

Q3: Is it true that the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are the High Evolutionary’s grandchildren?

No...they were raised by Bova (one of his creations) but neither Mags nor his wife were related to the Evolutionary.

Q4: What is the difference between Carol Danvers and Sharon Venture? Do they have exactly the same powers (apart from the obvious Binary thing) and did they get them from in the same way?

Sharon Ventura (aka Ms. Marvel II, and She-Thing) was a female pro-wrestler who gained super-powers (strength, mostly) from this guy called the Power Broker. She had no connection to Ms. Marvel I.

Q5: In Earth X, was that Clea that became the female Dr. Strange (I didn't read it but I saw the pages)? What was here super-power anyway, was she a sorcerer like Stephen Strange?

Yeah, that's Clea. She's a sorceress, and daughter to Umar (Dormammu's brother).

10:59 / 19.04.04

I think it was implied that he chose the name because he was deliberately taking the piss out of the heroes and their silly names.

Mr. Sinister's real name is Nathaniel Essex.

I think that's a pretty good villian-name...

11:03 / 19.04.04

Q: Is Adam X (the supposed third Summers brother) a secret love child that Christopher Summers had with some random Shi'Ar lady? Was that ever revealed?

Fabian Niceza (who started the whole "third Summers" mess) revealed that D'Ken (Lilandra's brother) fathered a child on Cyke's mom, in CAPTAIN MARVEL v2. That's Adam X.

Q: Is Madelyne Pryor what Jean would have turned into if she didn’t have parents and if she didn’t join the X-Men (and found a place to belong)? Was Madelyne Pryor an aspect of Jeans personality that she kept suppressed? This mean, psychic girl that Sinister took and named Madelyne. Is that what happened when the Dark Phoenix emerged? The Phoenix found this locked door in Jean’s head and kicked it down….

I always assumed Maddie was a brainwashed clone (leaving aside the X-Man Maddie, who is just confusing).

11:14 / 19.04.04

Why aren't there any mutant pensioners (apart from sinister, apocalypse and xavier), you know, kinda like "mom, granma's restructuring matter again"

11:28 / 19.04.04

Mutants eat their old...

11:56 / 19.04.04

My question is about Cassandra Nova and all the recent stuff in New X-Men about her being Ernst.
I was re-reading Morrison's run last night and came across the part where Cassandra Nova is tricked into going back into what she thought was her body. But it wasn't it seemed to be Stuff ( one of the Imperial Guard ) .
She is then seen in a classroom ( astral plane ? ) being re-educated.. Do I take it that Ernst is Stuff who is also Cassandra Nova.. ? And that is how she can take her place in the X-Men of the future as a goodie cause she is a shapeshifter ?
Sorry to be geeky but its been bugging me...

12:05 / 19.04.04

Q: Is Madelyne Pryor what Jean would have turned into if she didn’t have parents and if she didn’t join the X-Men (and found a place to belong)? Was Madelyne Pryor an aspect of Jeans personality that she kept suppressed? This mean, psychic girl that Sinister took and named Madelyne. Is that what happened when the Dark Phoenix emerged? The Phoenix found this locked door in Jean’s head and kicked it down….

I always assumed Maddie was a brainwashed clone (leaving aside the X-Man Maddie, who is just confusing).

I realize that but seeing as clones are exact copies of the person they're based on, couldn't Jean have this mean streak running through her that Xavier helped her suppress and keep in check. Maddie didn't have this help and as such, it overwhelmed her and she became the Goblin Queen. Sort of like Jean's Mr. Hyde (but where as Jekyll had to share a body with Hyde, Jean and Maddie didn't have to).

You have to see clones as twins for this to work. Jean and Maddie are twins right. The one "twin" is raised in a giant mansion in West Chester with mutant pals that love her and a teacher who also has telepathy. The other "twin" is raised by a pale-faced, genetic vampire in some hole in the ground, where she's brainwashed and tortured. For thirty they live their respective lives until one day fate conspires for the one to replace the other. At first Maddie's overwhelmed with the change of environment, she's suddenly the popular one and everything goes fine. Until Jean shows up again. This triggers the same personality switch that Mastermind triggered in the Phoenix. All I'm saying is that Jean may or may not have this dark side that she’s kept under her thumb and that Maddie couldn't or wouldn't.

Also, I think Sinister is the greatest villain ever. He isn’t some random loon who wants to destroy the world for some random reason, he is a eugenicist who has dedicated his life to a project that somehow involves Scott and Jean and just because they happen to have joined a super-mutant team, he is forced into situations where he as to defend his interaction with his test subjects and thus constantly comes into scuffles with said team. Just like a real life villain, self-serving and egomaniacal.

12:32 / 19.04.04

This thread is really great, I just wish someone would answer the questions that have been posted. Questions like: What is Scarlet Witch's tie to a golden age character named the Whizzer? Cassandra got put into Stuff, her brain got retrained and she was on her way to being rehabilitated. She was on her way to becoming a good old lady and the first step in this transformation was Ernst (the child in an old womans body). Ernst is probably how Cassandra looked like when she was a teenager/fourty, in a 150 years she'll look like when she first introduced as an adult (in 114). The whole thing with Madelyne and Jean is interesting but what's more interesting is the theory that Xavier just like his son had Multiple Personality Disorder and he also had a few people occuping his psychic basement. One of the was a teenage girl. Xavier used to go into his own mind and have day-long conversations with this girl and they eventually became close friends. When he met Jean Grey he slipped this multiple personality into Jean's mind and set her loose. She weaved herself into Jean's psyche and became a part of Jean. Kooky mad rambling, I guess.

12:33 / 19.04.04

Another question...

Did Xorn appear in continuity before Grant Morrisons run.. ? Why does Xorn refer to Scott as " old friend " ?

12:35 / 19.04.04

No, he didn't. He's trying to be witty, he's Scott's oldest enemy trying to be tongue in cheek. The bastard!

miss wonderstarr

12:38 / 19.04.04

The DCU has no continuity and is comparable to someone eating a few crap stories and tacky comic art and vomiting it onto glossy paper. The DCU is soulless and would not be around today if Superman and Batman weren't successful. The DCU has characters like the Elongated Man and Despero and that starfish villain. It also had twelve different Hawkman's with the same name and different histories. A Vertigo thread perhaps but one dedicated to Booster Gold and Green Flame and the rest of that man glue...maybe not.

Thanks for the advice! I will be burning all my DCU comix promptly and immersing myself in the hi-lit of Marvel Secret Wars.

12:46 / 19.04.04

No, he didn't. He's trying to be witty, he's Scott's oldest enemy trying to be tongue in cheek. The bastard!

I'm probably just being too picky but you know when the Xorn/MAgneto thing was revealed , I just wanted to see whether it all fitted together... and as I had never heard of Xorn before and it seemed Scott had ...

Dan Fish - @Fish1k

13:18 / 19.04.04

Q2: During the Secret Wars, Magneto was grouped with the heroes even though he was dressed in is classic villain costume (not his peace-loving reformed Purple and white number). I even remember him being a villain before they were whisked away. What was the deal?

When the Beyonder read everyones minds, he interpreted Magneto as being someone who wanted to protect Mutantkind, and thus put him with the heroes (or something like that). This eventually led to the subplot in X-Men that led to him reforming for a while, but this was due to Moira MacTaggart messing with his mind back when he was regressed to infant form. When this was discovered, his evil streak came to the fore.

13:48 / 19.04.04

What is Scarlet Witch's tie to a golden age character named the Whizzer?

I don't really know the answer to this.

It was an injection of Mongoose venom that made Robert Frank into The Whizzer, the fastest man on Earth. For a time, Wanda and Pietro thought that he was their natural father, due to a complicated maguffin.

For details, check this shit out:

Secret origins of Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch

Eventually, Bob Frank met his death at the hands of an "old enemy". This was in the Bill Mantlo penned 4-issue series, The Vision and the Scarlet Witch, which in the UK was reprinted along with parts of the Claremont-Byrne X-Men run in Might World Of Marvel. The first issue I picked up (aged 8 or so) was the issue where the Whizzer gets it, and I still remember the cover tagline: "No matter how fast the Whizzer runs, he can't escape the past!" and then off to the side "This issue: X-Men: Everybody dies!" as indeed they (sort of) did.

It was this stuff, reprints of the Miller Daredevil and the Moore/Davis Captain Britain run the melted my mind as a child and made me into the drooling Marvel fanboy that I was for about a decade.

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