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Advice really needed...please

  
  

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angel
20:43 / 05.01.04
Keith, I think that really just supports everything stated above.

Strength to you hon. Make sure you have some good friends around, do lots of things that you like doing and maybe even some that you have neglected to do while you have been occupied with your present/absent girly.

It will pass, you know this, just be gentle with yourself and stay strong. Accept nothing less than you deserve.
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:54 / 05.01.04


Been there sort of... amidst a 3 year "friendship" where either She or I where "currently occupied" with another other. Dispite any misgivings about any of these other relationships, we could never quite muster the courage to act on the feelings we had for our special-friendship. By the 3rd year I broke off any other "relationships" to focus on winning her heart.

The thing was that we both had sort of fallen "in Love" with the ideas about these other people.

Are you sure you love her?
Might you be more in love with the Idea of what she could be?

Sounds the same with her... I imagine she has some ideas about this absent Guy of her's which she may well "love" more than she would the person himself; where he to return. Assuming it's not just a matter of convience for this fellow to have an available lady waiting for him upon his return visits, would it be in your nature to carry on a sort of cladestine relationship with her in the even she opted to "give you" what you wanted but still keep this other boyfriend?

Getting back to my story:
By the 4th year of knowing this person we eventually consumated our "relationship." The Honey-moon phase may have lasted 6 months (perhaps less for her) but that bliss faded and was replaced with nearly a year of sliding into some hellish insanity.

Ultimately it took the brave love of some friends to unveal the flaws in this illusionary world She & I had created for/with each other. It took another 6 months to reassemble any kind of personhood based on reality. Some 2 years later (and a move accross the country) I ran into her while visiting my home town... it was one of those bizarre yet tender reunions that lead to a dinner spent asking and answering those last nagging would'a-should'a-could'a questions. That "epilogue" seemed to free me to persue another "long term relationship" make other mistakes but recognise the opportunity to not repeat these errors with another "friend" who, to this day, remains a dear friend dispite the fact that she's now married and I'm very happily involved with my own significant other.

VERY BAD ADVICE:
Get her drunk, seduce her, and see what happens the morning after... (she'll either hate you or be relieved)

Not really advice but probably much more useful:
  • Have courage,
  • Be patient (not for your "not-girl-friend" but for that someone who you'll encounter free this baggage)
  • Take care of your emotional self
  • pay close attention to why you do what you do


either way it'll probably NOT be easy, but you can learn lots...

good luck & better decisions.
 
 
Turd
23:01 / 05.01.04
Fuck her in the ass.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
01:42 / 06.01.04
angel, i will try...i'm trying hard right now to be strong. thanks for the encouragement.

mr. tricks, thanks for that organized and thoughtful answer. to be perfectly honest, i really do think i am actually in love with her. even though we don't have an open and physical relationship, to this point, it has been like a relationship, and it has made me feel at a loss without her. being away from her so much lately has really made me miss the mere presence of her...the companionship of her. i get sad when i think that she is with someone else, that she may never be with me, that i could lose her. i'm not sure how you define love exactly, but there you go. that's how i feel. all i know, is that it took awhile for me to admit to myself that that is how i feel, and it took a longer time for me to be able to tell her. it feels real.

as for would i be able to handle a clandestine relationship with her if she stayed with her boy but messed around with me...jeez...I don't know, but I kind of think that I would go for it at first, because...well, to be honest again, to be pathetically honest, i want her bad. it's driving me nuts. before the non-physicalness of the relationship didn't bug me...i was frustrated by that part. but lately, since we have be open with each about how we feel and we have recognized (she pointed this out one night) that the only thing we don't have right now is a physical relationship...since that realization...i've been insanely fixated on that aspect. so i think my needs would win out. however, it would probably slowly destroy me if she were to stay with her boy and mess with me.

your very bad advice: yeah...we've been drunk on my couch before, side by side...it kind of freaked her out after a bit...that's when she told me she later on that she holds herself in check more than i know and that she would never cheat on her boy.

trying to be patient...sitting at home right now, though...it's really hard to not pick up the phone and call her...i keep second guessing myself thinking that's what she wants me to do, and if i do it, she will fall for me more...totally stupid. that's why i'm messed up about this.

thanks, mr. tricks (and everyone!)...please continue to post if you want. i'm listening to everything and taking support from it! i will post more if things develop...

turd...er, if it were that easy, i wouldn't need this topic....
 
 
foot long subbacultcha
10:00 / 06.01.04
Keith - I assume you're not friends with her bloke aswell?
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
11:08 / 06.01.04
hell, no. i barely met him before he moved, and I RARELY ever see him when he is in town. in a show of "just friends" just had him help me move on a weekend he was visiting. that was pretty funny. tense, but funny. everyone thought it was insane.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:20 / 06.01.04
trying to be patient...sitting at home right now, though...it's really hard to not pick up the phone and call her...

HOLD FAST.

As for it feeling "like a relationship" - again, please trust me when I say I have been there, and trust me again when I say "no, it's not". It's not a romantic relationship, anyway.

Thinking about it... Keith, please don't take offence at this, but have you ever been in a (sexual/romantic) relationship? I say this not to be condescending, but because it occurs to me that when I was in an extremely similar situation (some of the things you've quoted this person saying are eerily familiar, and by the way did I mention RUN FOR THE HILLS yet?), it had a lot to do with the fact that I *hadn't* ever been in a real relationship, I *hadn't* had a proper girlfriend, and I thought that what I had was an adequate substitute because all I had to compare it with was, well, nothing. But it really *doesn't* compare.

Hold fast, my friend. We're all rooting for you. As far as the frustration is concerned - do you go out much? If not, maybe you should start. Get out there and have some fun and you're likely to meet at least one or two people who help take your mind off this person.
 
 
foot long subbacultcha
11:56 / 06.01.04
As confusing as this all is, at least it's just down to you two. There's no danger of other mutual friends getting hurt. Likewise, it's also easier to be her friend because you don't have to deal with her chosen man being someone else close to you.

I reckon you've heard enough from us by now, don't you?

Good luck. Let us know how it goes. Let me know, at least. I'd really care to know what happens here, out of selfish curiosity if nothing else.
 
 
illmatic
12:34 / 06.01.04
It had a lot to do with the fact that I *hadn't* ever been in a real relationship, I *hadn't* had a proper girlfriend, and I thought that what I had was an adequate substitute because all I had to compare it with was, well, nothing.

Ditto. Or near as damnit, in the situation I refered to above. I'd had a couple of girlfriends but hadn't had the big luurrve situation, so I was desperate to make it happen and ended up - well, acting like a cock. I was only half joking when I said there should be a self help book for young blokes about this type of thing. I post on another forum, completely different subject matter (martial arts) and there's loads of guys going dealing with the same sort of issues. I almost wonder if it's some kind of essential stage you have to go through. Hang on in there, Keith! You are not alone!

Listen to your friends - not us, people who know you IRL. They'll have your happiness at heart. Most of mine (m + f) HATED the girl I was chasing because I was allowing it to make me so miserable. If they're doing the same, pay attention!
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
13:48 / 06.01.04
I held fast and did not call. Have been trying to be out of her life today as well...

I've basically come to the realization that I need to give her her requested space for the time being, but if this lasts for more than a couple days, I need to sit her down and talk to her one final time. Lay it completely on the line, and take the pieces from there. If it ends in us not being able to hang out and try being friends, well, then, it just does, I guess.

I have not been in many relationships, no, and I've always known this is part of my problem...however, I have been in relationships before, so I know when I emotionally experience one... it's not a real relationship, but it's like a half evolved one, some mutant strain. that's why it sucks so much.

i do go out, but i need to go out more...i like to, but i've been spending most of my time with this girl, so haven't been going out as much... going to try to do it more. i need to.

a lot of friends of mine say i need to run as well...it's just hard. i've fallen too deep, and she gives me enough to keep me interested. it's the eternal strong possibility that keeps me tethered to her...but now, i want more, and if she can't provide it, it's gotta be over...i've been thinking about what to say for a final last ditch talk, and gearing myself up to being strong for it...it's gonna have to happen very soon, like this week, by next weekend.

i keep thinking about the idea that we could never be hanging out again, that nothing could happen between us...and it makes me well up every time...i want to go home and cry right now. i'm probably going to break down when i tell her that i can't be friends anymore.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
14:14 / 06.01.04
just got an email from her. how is everything with you today? you seemed bummed out? boss riding your ass?

WTF? so everything is ok now? jesus, i just should say i'm not ok. i am bummed out.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:21 / 06.01.04
Actually the most difficult and sensible thing for you to do and something you might not be able to manage is to wait a day and then answer the email.
 
 
gravitybitch
14:23 / 06.01.04
A casual email asking how you're doing? "You seem bummed out"???

That sounds like a huge failure to acknowledge the situation... or a gloss to make nice, see if there's still bait on the hook.

My recommendation? Be angry with her. Stay angry with her...

She's already told you you're not a possible partner "because of the work thing". And because of the pseudo-boyfriend. And I suspect there are a few other excuses lying in wait...

She's already told you you're not a possible partner.

Be angry with her for wasting your time and breaking your heart.

I'm actually not as bitter as I sound, but I am pissed off... This is an ugly situation.
 
 
Ex
15:00 / 06.01.04
Such a situation (I think) never feels as urgent, as difficult and as central to the person with the lukewarm feelings. Which is probably why your inamorata can send you an email like that. However well-intentioned she is, sorting out her relationship with you may not be pressing for her; the indecision isn't as painful for her, and she gets good stuff during any delay and obfuscation - an affectionate and admiring co-worker and friend.
Liking to be liked is not eeviiiil, but it can shade over into persistant stringing along. Anger may indeed be appropriate. Only you can decide when she's started taking the piss.
This post is in part penance for unfairly stringing along a perfectly pleasant person in the past.

And if anyone's still watching The Office Christmas special on freezeframe, stop it.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
15:37 / 06.01.04
i ended saying that was not very good, i guess. and left it at that. i'll see if this precipitates a talk...which we seemingly need to have. a final talk, maybe.

i'm going between being angry and being really upset about completely losing her. god, this sucks.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
17:00 / 06.01.04
sorry that reply was completely garbled. i mean to say I ended up replying to her that I was not very good. and left it at that. 2 hours later, no reply.
 
 
■
17:35 / 06.01.04
Wow. Long thread. Haven't read it all but I think I need to get this bit of "been there" advice. Do not ever get so close that she leaves him for you.
Two reasons:
1. If she can leave someone for you, she can just as easily leave you for someone else.
2. If she does leave him for you, both of them will always harbour a "what if?" about what would have happened if they had stayed together. The corollary is that anything that goes wrong between you will allow her to blame you for breaking them up.

I don't quite go with the run fast advice, but keep a clear distance until she leaves him for long enough to be sure she is over him. It'll probably never happen, though. Good luck, and remember relationships ain't everything. There's a big world out there that looks a lot better on your own.
 
 
The Apple-Picker
18:05 / 06.01.04
1. If she can leave someone for you, she can just as easily leave you for someone else.

Whatever, dude. People leave their significant others for new ones all the time. And if she did do that... "Just as easily"? It obviously hasn't been easy at all!

Is every relationship you enter into supposed to be forever?
 
 
The Apple-Picker
18:12 / 06.01.04
And there are always what-ifs, too. If she does have strong feelings for Keith and stays in the relationship with her boyfriend, that will be a what-if, too.

I think Keith has probably received the best advice we can give him by now. Be completely honest about what kind of relationship you want and what kind of relationship you're capable of if you can't have what you want. Then stick to what you've said.

Not to say that this thread is over. If Keith needs the support that everyone is offering, I think y'all are doing a great job.
 
 
+#'s, - names
18:27 / 06.01.04
Keith, have you ever tried to make her love you? A few hits of LSD, some spinning spirals and 48 hours could make a world of difference.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
18:30 / 06.01.04
i agree with that completely, apple. everyone here has been extremely helpful, and reading this advice and these insights have made me feel very sure of what i need to do. i need to talk to her very soon, state my stuff, and if she doesn't decide to fully come to me, i have to stay away from her. i'm much too miserable and frustrated right now to continue.

if something happens soonish, i will report back, of course...not sure when this will be, but probably very soon.

i just need this to change somehow, one way or another.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
20:49 / 06.01.04
got an email...she wants to get a drink and chat with me. no idea what this is about...but i'm sort of scared.

i thought about saying no, but i think i have to hear what she says...any new info is good at this point...

i think it will be bad, though, because of the tension...this is gonna suck. plus, a public place...ugh...
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:12 / 06.01.04
Delay IT

Really... if it's important she'll remember what she has to say... otherwise it could just as easily be another
gloss to make nice, see if there's still bait on the hook.
as 'belle so keening observed upthred...

It will also allow you to develop fortitude, you will need plenty of it as S P A C E figures more prominantly in the dynamic between the 2 of you.

Iit's erie how the dynamic you're experiencing now, seems to parrallel personal history of mine (your posts read like year 2.5 of my own version) as well as others. More & More I suspect this is a fundimental process one must go through in learning how to relate to others as well as how to . . . er, FIND LOVE?

So take the rist of just posponing this impromptu meeting... just push it back a day if not towards the weekend. Give yourself time to compose what you'd like to say... you can always write it down (several times even). Even if you don't present her with a "note" the process can be very helpful.

Beyond that... work-out... there's nothing like good old-fashioned (or HHi-tech) excorsize to pass the time, ease the feeling of longing and it may well help in making you that much more attractive to all those others you've yet to meet.

They ARE out there!!!
 
 
w1rebaby
22:29 / 06.01.04
I'd go and meet her this once, but don't change your mind.

There's no way you want to continue this poisonous state of affairs. None whatsoever. Whatever you do, don't continue it in any way. If necessary (and I think it might be) break off all contact to let you get your head together.
 
 
gravitybitch
01:22 / 07.01.04
Now that I'm a little less rushed, and a little less offended...

For the record, I like being liked, really enjoy flirting and such at parties (and I'm a cuddle-slut, so the opportunities for causing all sorts of trouble are huge and numerous), but I'm pretty up-front about my intentions (if not at the party with the party in question, then at the next contact) in hopes of preventing situations like this.

I understand where your co-worker is coming from - with or without her malice aforethought, you make her feel good. You feed her ego, keep her company, give her something to do in the evenings other than wonder what her pseudo-boyfriend is up to... I actually don't blame her for wanting to keep you around. What pissed me off so thoroughly this morning is that she apparently doesn't have the conscience/guts to come to the conclusion that the damage she's doing to you is not worth the good she gets out of this set-up.

(grr...)

Anyway, I wish you luck in talking to her "one last time." I don't know that making your case to her one more time will make much difference, but we can hope... If it were me, I'd probably go in and say (and stick to) "I can't do this anymore. It hurts too much, it's driving me crazy, it has to stop. Something has to change."

This gives her the opportunity to volunteer what she might be willing to do differently, gives you the opportunity to ask for something you need (two chances for her to change things); and a strong finish, if you need it, to really shut things down between the two of you.

Good luck!
 
 
■
01:24 / 07.01.04
Is every relationship you enter into supposed to be forever?
No, but it'd be nice to think that you could get one that was, and (v. important) that also worked.
And there are always what-ifs, too. If she does have strong feelings for Keith and stays in the relationship with her boyfriend, that will be a what-if, too.
Yeah, agree totally, but that would be a what-if which is clearly her decision. It was something to bear in mind rather than a rule.
Still holding firm to that 'nothing wrong with single' line, though.

Vives les celibataires manques!
 
 
■
01:26 / 07.01.04
oops. for 'vive' read 'vivent'.
and for 'tuba' read 'tuber' throughout (old Martin Rowson gag).

God luck Keith, geezer, hope it works out.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
03:45 / 07.01.04
ugh, ugh, double ugh, triple ugh. but i have to get this out of my head (at least somewhat) so i can get some sleep tonight...

that was the most awful thing i've ever been through. i've been dumped, i'd had people mad at me, i've lost friends, this is was actually worse than breaking up with someone. at least when you are breaking up with someone, one person is mad, and the other person isn't crying...right? i mean, it's much worse for both people to be crying and to not want to do what they are doing, right?

so, yes, i went out for the drink (i didn't get the replies in time....just ran out of time). we met, sat down, ordered drinks and dinner. she wanted to talk to me because of 2 things: 1) she was upset with me for trying to kiss her that day last week and 2) she had felt really guilty about all the time we had spent together before xmas after having such a fabulous f**king time with her boyfriend during that time. to this, i was not sorry, and didn't give her the satisfaction...it didn't bother me much...fine, that's how she felt, ok, whatever.

then, we eventually got on the topic of she can't give me what i want and i don't think we can be friends.

this is when it got truly awful. I thought before tonight that this was ultimately a good idea, that i could handle this idea, not being friends anymore, completely cutting off this pseudo-relationship. not until i was actually faced with the reality of it did it register with me. i was SO upset...i just couldn't bare to think about not being hanging out, not doing friend stuff. she basically said she didn't think she could be friends in the way that we had been acting...i said i don't think i could deal with anything less than that. that i just couldn't do it.

i made my mushy statement of "i love you and i would spend the rest of my life with you in a second, without reservation." that stung her a bit and she asked if that was a throw back in her face about her marriage/commitment-scared boyfriend. i said no, i just need her to understand that is how i feel.

we talk about all kinds of stuff for a bit, and then it becomes clear that we are headed towards "can't be friends" territory and that it was basically over. i started welling up like a little pathetic wuss, and told i couldn't have this conversation there, i just couldn't do it. we decide to go to my place and continue the talk.

it quickly gets into mutual and constant crying. us constantly saying we don't want this. that we can't believe it.

she says i am her best friend, she loves hanging out with me, loves being friends, that she is happy with me, but that she wants to be with her boyfriend. that she needs me to be happy, because i mean so much to her, that she can't bare seeing me upset. that she is sorry, that it's her fault.

there was tons and tons of stuff. lots of discussion of her feelings for me, my feelings for her, how sad we are. a little holding at the end. more crying. "i can't believe i'm not going to email you tomorrow, not see what you are doing, not see what you are doing this weekend." it was so damn awful...so so awful.

she said how amazing she thinks i am, how she thinks i will be ok. she said i will be ok and she won't. i said, you are losing a friend, but you get to be with the one you love. i don't. she said "no i don't." well, then dump him, damn it! i'm right here...

there was some waffle-ing at the end where she said she hoped this wasn't totally over, that it just will take some time. i honestly was hoping so as well. maybe i'm just completely hopeless, that all this advice is all for naught. cause i cannot live with the idea that i'm never going to be friends with her again. we said at the end that we will try to talk, that we just need some space for awhile.

i know this isn't what should be happening...but...damn, i would like to save the friendship...her emotion, tears, words...they just made me realize that she does care about me, at least as a best friend to her...that she genuinely cares for me.

ugh, this is going to be so hard.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
04:11 / 07.01.04
one other thing: i pointed out that we aren't just friends anymore, that we definitely have this serious emotional relationship...that it's been going on for awhile. she said she knows, but that she doesn't know if she can keep having this emotional relationship with me all the time, and having this physical one with her boyfriend every couple weeks.

i don't understand why she doesn't end it with him...she clearly has a deeper connection with me...she admits it...uadhalkjhfdlajdljafldkjafljdlk;ajughhhhh.....
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
05:45 / 07.01.04
Today is the first day of the rest of your life.
 
 
Cat Chant
08:56 / 07.01.04
this is was actually worse than breaking up with someone.

Yes! It is! I went through this a couple of years ago - I "broke up" with the woman who had been my best friend for fifteen years and it's horrible. The only advice I can give you is to be really, really kind to yourself and remember that you're grieving, so you'll need to put time and energy into that - I used to schedule days off to watch bad movies and cry and write in my journal, but I hear other people can be more spontaneous about that stuff... Best of luck, dude.
 
 
foot long subbacultcha
08:59 / 07.01.04
Wow. I actually think you're quite lucky. And she finally took responsibility. You got what I reckon you needed. You got closure. Not sure you'd agree, though, Keith?
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
10:10 / 07.01.04
ugh, this is going to be so hard.

Yeah, but that was pretty inevitable. Sounds like a nasty job done well, though, you can take a little pride in that.

Good luck, mate, don't be a stranger.
 
 
bjacques
10:27 / 07.01.04
Well, at least you got some catharsis and maybe it'll allow you to think more clearly. You had common interests, but those aren't enough to make or sustain a relationship. You had an intense emotional relationship, but an unequal and non-complementary one. It started off wrong and didn't improve; it only intensified.

Had you poured your heart out to her as much as she had to you (about anything besides how much you wanted her, that is)? Would she listen to details about your girlfriend if you'd had one? You *will* get another girlfriend soon enough, and if the answer to the above is yes, you'll have a valuable friendship that will last for years if it doesn't eventually lead to romance. If no, then she just wanted an emotional tampon, in the words of the late comedian Sam Kinnison. There are plenty of "nice guys" who will provide that. I've been there and now just chalk it up to emotional inexperience. To her credit, she seems aware enough to feel a little guilty about it, but it's up to her, not you, to sort that out.

As others have said, if you two were going to be a couple--that is, if she were attracted to you as much as you were to her--she would have dumped the other guy quickly. The odds that after all this she'll dump him for you are very long since she'd feel she opened herself up to you too much to start a (real) romantic relationship. It could still happen, but don't wait around for it.

There's a book with a title like EQ: Emotional Intelligence. It's mostly about not getting into fights, but it's definitely worth a read.

All this making me feel a little guilty...
 
 
Squirmelia
11:28 / 07.01.04
I am feeling guilty too. I'm sure I have been that girl, and many a time have my friends declared that I "mess with people's minds", although it's never been intentional. My friendships with people can initially be intense (like a lust period, I suppose), even though I don't intend anything other than friendship. People often mistake it for something else and become confused, especially those who have not had much experience with relationships.

In some cases, it's worked out okay, after a stretch of avoiding each other for a while, we've become good friends again, often when they've got a girlfriend. In some cases, it hasn't, and we've very only exchanged a few words since.
 
  

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