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Advice really needed...please

 
  

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Keith, like a scientist
01:57 / 05.01.04
Hi all,
Would you mind giving me some girl/work/relationship advice? I've noticed that things like this get good responses from everyone here, and I'm kind of at the end of my wits here...going completely crazy this holiday season.

I'll try to make it short, but it's kind of complicated.

A little over a year ago, this girl started working at my office. Small office, 14 or so people. Totally pretty, she had a boyfriend. However, boyfriend moved away for his job a couple months later. However, they decide to stick it out and stay together, do the long distance thing. Girl and I strike up a friendship over love of comics and movies, most especially Lord of the Rings (I was pretty much in love the first time she mentioned her adoration of LOTR). So, we started hanging out, going to movies once in awhile, going to the gym together. Then it started in on dinners, drinks, renting movies, etc. Then it started becoming very obviously relationship territory. No physical stuff started happening, she is a good girl in that respect.

At one point, the flirting, the obvious relationship-ness of our thing started bothering me and I decided to come right out and say I like her, etc. She knew, of course. It was obvious. But, she was dedicated to her boy. I said I didn't know how much more of this I could take...just being friends. She became very upset when it looked like she might be losing me as a friend. We try to keep some distance after this, but things just got more intense after awhile.

Things continue from this point, and she starts flirting more heavily, treating me as if I am her boyfriend. Examples are many. Eventually, one night she admits that that she likes me as well, but still loves her boy. Tells me that she thinks about why is she still with this boy who doesn't know if he wants to marry her, when there is another boy who is great sitting next to her. And that she even likes this boy. We hold hands, get emotional, etc.

After this, we have many conversations about it. Many nights of extreme flirting/couple-ness. End up laying on the couch together a lot at my place. Making dinner, going out for drinks 3-4 times a week. She stays over some nights (separate beds). One night it was intense, and I said to her as we were hugging good night that I sometimes really want to kiss her. She says she knows, but that she can't, that maybe we aren't handling this mutual attraction very well. She admits things like it's really hard for her to be in this position, of loving one person and really liking another. That she holds herself in check more than I know. That she shouldn't tell me what she really feels for me. She says we couldn't date even if there wasn't her boyfriend, because of work. That we walk a thin line. That the only thing we don't have in our relationship is a physical thing. That she likes me a lot.

Right before Christmas, we had a particularly intense couple of weeks with lots of cheek kissing, missing you, obvious sexual frustration. Lots of couple activities, but no hanky panky. Finally, she is getting ready to visit her boyfriend, then he is coming home for xmas, then she is visiting again for new years. I realize this is an important time, so I ask her to stop by before she leaves (not uncommon, she is at my apartment 3-4 times a week), and she takes a little nap on the couch. I sit down, and she asks me what I wanted. I tell her I love her. She takes me hand in hers and says that I make it really hard for her. I say I don't mean to. I say I know she loves her boyfriend, but that I wish she would consider other possibilities. She says that considering is thinking and that thinking is easy, that she thinks about it, but that doing it is harder.

She called me Christmas night to say hello. We did a little exchanging of gifts day the week after when her boy was gone. I told her I had missed her, and I tried to kiss her at the end of the night, but she backed away. She called New Year's night to say Happy New Year. Not being with her so much lately has really bummed me out. I really don't know what to do anymore. I like her, she likes me, her boy doesn't really plan on coming back, she isn't hot to move to him, she wants to marry him, but he says he doesn't even know if she is the girl he will marry. And she stays with him.

She was a bit distant since she has been around him so much. That will change, of course, when she doesn't see him and sees me for the next couple weeks.

I can't really see giving up right now, since she is so close to coming to me, but is holding back. What should I do? How can I make this happen?

Any advice you have would be much appreciated...Thank you very much.

Keith
 
 
illmatic
08:45 / 05.01.04
Hi Keith

That sounds like a very unpleasant situation to be in, I feel sorry for you. I've been there, or someplace similar. The only advice I would have to offer is that if things don't change and she's still set on seeing him after the Xmas break, then break away. I suppose these holidays, the New Year etc are a time for getting things into perspective and looking forward, and if she's still set on seeing him, then cut out for a bit and save yourself the heartache. Until it comes to this crunch time just RELAX and be as normal and then mention how you feel when it seems right but do not beg, nag or cajole her. Believe me, there's nothing more unattractive than a desperate man, I know, I've been one several times. But if it comes to it, be prepared to break off for awhile, after a while you might find that you can take up a normal friendship, but if nothing is going to happen then it's worth letting things cool off in the meantime.
 
 
foot long subbacultcha
09:04 / 05.01.04
Putting yourself aside for a while, it does sound like you're making things quite tough for her. One thing you should consider figuring out is how hard it would be to get over her. Illmatic's advice makes sense. You never know, she may realise that she does actually want you.

The worst part is the whole how-can-we-stay-friends-when-that's-not-enough-for-me part. That is bloody tough. I've been there too, and have no idea how to deal with it.

Bugger this I'm gonna join Keith's club. Someone give us some advice.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:22 / 05.01.04
Dude, I have one simple piece of advice for you: run.

This is not to put this other person down at all - I'm sure their intentions are entirely benign. But that doesn't matter, what matters is that the pattern of behaviour in which the two of you are engaged is depressingly familiar to me, and ultimately destructive. It's gone on for too long as it is: get out while you still can, while the damage to you, her and him can still be minimized.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:32 / 05.01.04
I have a confession to make. I have been that girl and as someone who was once that girl and on reading this- She says we couldn't date even if there wasn't her boyfriend, because of work-

I have one piece of advice.

Run For The Hills.

She thinks you're sweet and she kind of likes you but she's playing with you and she's going to make you cry and she'll feel guilty for 5 minutes because she knows she's making you cry.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:35 / 05.01.04
To clarify: if everything is the way you've described it, then whether she knows it or not, however unconsciously, she is stringing you along. Either she is unwilling to tell you that nothing's going to happen as bluntly as you need to hear it, or she is unwilling to choose between the relationship she's currently in and a potential relationship with you. You have to ask yourself what it is that you want from this girl, what the realistic likelihood is of achieving what you want, and what kind of effect the current situation is having on your headspace and your chances of happiness...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:42 / 05.01.04
Tryphena = so 100% on the fucking money it's untrue. So now you have someone who's been that girl and someone who's been that boy agreeing that you need to walk away, Zellwegger.
 
 
Jub
11:43 / 05.01.04
definitely. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but do you really want someone who wants someone else more?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:47 / 05.01.04
Hmm, the psychobabble parlance would be emotional surrogate, which means you get to be the receiver of her displaced desires, projected your way in the absence of the intended target...see? Like, your boss yells at you and gives you shit all day, you go home and kick the dog...safer than kicking the boss, and much easier.


OK, nothing like that, but you get the idea, I'm sure. Time to flee.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
11:49 / 05.01.04
I've not been there, Keith, but I've glimpsed the shoreline and ouch. I feel for you. Hope it works out somehow.
 
 
Linus Dunce
11:59 / 05.01.04
I've been there, twice. She is a mentalist. If you are brave, stick around but stop trying to kiss her -- see her self-confidence and interest in you crumble. Otherwise, run.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
12:17 / 05.01.04
I knew that if I posted my problem here, I would recieve some very good and advice from a wide range of people...thanks, Tryphena, especially, from giving me your take from the other side of the fence...that is very helpful.

I have to grudgingly accept that everything you say is true...I need to get away from her. For my sanity, and, really, if she changes her mind, and decides she wants me, she knows where I am and how I feel. I'm sure she will start asking soon why I have been distant or whatever, and that will start another conversation about stuff...I can always make my last ditch speech at that point.

I need to re-read some of these responses to process things more, but my plan this morning is to back off as much as possible without being a total jerk. We'll see if I'm strong enough when she wants to start hanging out...

Thanks everyone. Please if anyone else has something to add, I'm all ears. I really appreciate this.
 
 
foot long subbacultcha
12:23 / 05.01.04
Yeah I think it's worth seeing if, when you run away, she runs after you. That doesn't necessarily mean victory for you, though. Remember what Money said about "emotional surrogate". See how important you are while she has her bloke at her side.

Sigh - it's almost enough to make you wanna give up on women for good.
 
 
illmatic
12:23 / 05.01.04
I'd just add we've all been there. I wasted two years chasing someone who was pissing me around. It ain't worth it, believe me. If she feels strongly enough to have dumped him over Xmas then you're a lucky man. If not, get outta town.

There's a self help bestseller waiting to be written dealing with this sort of thing as applied to young guys.
 
 
.
12:25 / 05.01.04
"Dude, I have one simple piece of advice for you: run [...] Run For The Hills [...] she is stringing you along [...] emotional surrogate [...] run"

My god, you're a cynical bunch! My advice is that it is perfectly possible to have a close, exciting and non-destructive relationship with a member of the opposite sex in a situation like this. The trick is to understand where the boundaries lie and appreciate what you do have, rather than what you don't. Which is a good friendship. Look to someone-else for partner material.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:31 / 05.01.04
I don't think it's that gender specific, though. I think anyone is capable of falling into either role, given the 'right' circumstances...

And ., we're not being cynical! The point is that as he's described it up to this point, Keith has not been having a "close, exciting and non-destructive relationship with a member of the opposite sex", nor have boundaries been healthily defined. I think backing off is a wise move, because it's a hell of a lot easier to start defining those boundaries from a place which gives you a bit more perspective. Maybe the two of them can then become good friends, but that's not going to suddenly happen overnight unless they give it a bit of space first.
 
 
illmatic
12:36 / 05.01.04
I'd agree with you up until the point about "in a situation like this". The build up to the situation has been pretty emotionally charged and it's best to step back and cool off for awhile. In my own experience, the other party certainly got some sort of thrill out of having me hang around, and it didn't do me any good to indulge it.

This and some other stuff lead me to speculate on what women find attractive...I came to the conclusion it's not normally "nice guys".. topic for another thread maybe...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:40 / 05.01.04
Either she is unwilling to tell you that nothing's going to happen as bluntly as you need to hear it, or she is unwilling to choose between the relationship she's currently in and a potential relationship with you

Actually you're wrong, I know exactly what she's thinking...
she doesn't like her boyfriend all that much but he's kind of attractive and she wants to stay with him. She's getting attention and really big vibes off you and she's slightly addicted to it, the thrill of the chase is making her feel good and she is actually incapable of saying no. It's not unwillingness. She likes you but not enough and it's making her unsure. The thing is, if she was in the right place than she would have dumped him by now and she's be dating you but I'm afraid you've caught this girl about two years too early.

My advice is that it is perfectly possible to have a close, exciting and non-destructive relationship with a member of the opposite sex in a situation like this

If you're both single. If you've known each other for years, enough to finish each others sentences for instance and if you know nothing's going to come of it. Not in this situation, relationships are big, old balancing acts and this looks like an uneven relationship.
 
 
foot long subbacultcha
13:04 / 05.01.04
Keith pretty much said friendship isn't enough for him. That's the nasty confusing bit. Annoyingly, even if he could handle friendship, would it even be possible to have that with her? Perhaps, as Tryphena is helping us see, she has him exactly where she wants?

Anyone in this situation ever asked the if-only-significant-other where they wanted you? If they wanted you to be closer or futher away?
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
13:14 / 05.01.04
Heard this story once before. Nightmare. My only advice then, as now, is simple, if not very decisive. She owes you this decision, to stay with boyf or switch to you. It's hurting you, she claims to care about you, so she owes you. If she can't or won't make it, you have to look after yourself.
Without knowing either of you well, I can't be more definite than that. Do you care for her enough to wait? Would it hurt less to play at being friends than to play this game?
At a pinch, I'd join the "backing away" crowd. If nothing else, it will shake things up a little. Give both of you a fresh perspective on what's at stake.

Just don't ask me how. I'm lousy at this stuff.
 
 
gingerbop
14:02 / 05.01.04
Likewise, I would (grudgingly) join the backing away crowd. It probably doesnt help that you may well logically think we're right, but in reality its a lot more difficult than us sitting on our arses typing it.

Last year I went out with a guy, who everyone, and I mean everyone, told me not to. And yes, it ended...not nicely. Likewise my brother was very strongly advised not to get married to the girl he was in love with, when he was 17. Course, we were wrong and our friends were right, but neither of us regret it. So this will be so unhelpful, but its totally your call.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
16:05 / 05.01.04
scoobyjah...we've had the conversation about what she wants. after a particularly intense evening, she got a little freaked, and said again that maybe we aren't handling this very well. i asked her what she wanted. and her response was something like "what i want...i should probably keep what i want to myself. but it would really suck if we weren't friends anymore. what do you want?" i told her i couldn't think of the possibility of not being around her.

tryphena, your last post...really effected me. it seems so true. even down to the part about her not liking her boyfriend very much...it's like she is scared to give him up.

i guess there is nothing to it but to back away...what if i back away, and she comes after me, asking questions and being her old flirty self...what should I do? what would be the advice in that instance?
 
 
+#'s, - names
16:40 / 05.01.04
Keith, you poor sorry sick bastard.
 
 
Ariadne
17:06 / 05.01.04
If she does change her mind - I don't know, you'd have to judge it for yourself and whether it was real or just more games.

Perhaps she's not being intentionally cruel but I think you would do well to get away from the whole situation for a while, because it sounds like she's enjoying the attention and drama, and will keep twisting the knife as long as you let her.

But, you know, I've been in your shoes and I know it's not that simple. Just - be as good to yourself as you can.
 
 
pomegranate
17:32 / 05.01.04
number nun, that was neither nice nor helpful. but i suppose you know that.
keith, i have been in a somewhat similar situation. as the girl. my sister told me that some people, together, are like isotopes...i.e., unstable. you can't be friends and you can't be in a relationship. (for whatever reasons.) so yr in this weird limbo w/both people longing, often for different things. like for me i longed that my boy-space-friend would get over me (cos i wanted to save the friendship), and he longed to have me as his g.f. we tried different things, like trying to be casual friends, but that didn't happen, we were too close, we talked and hung out all the time. many times he said he couldn't be my friend anymore, and that hurt me deeply, and then a week later we'd be friends again, and i got so tired of being on that rollercoaster. he would always come back to being my friend because, as he once wrote, "when i was with you it hurt cos i wasn't yr guy, but now i can't even see you and i'm miserable." this is a pull the band-aid off quick, not slow, situation, i'm afraid. if you stop hanging out w/her, you will miss her, but that's not reason enough to start again. i think it's much more honest to say, "i have strong feelings for you, and it is too hard for me to be just yr friend." cos my friend told me, "no, it's okay, i'm fine w/being only yr friend," but when it was all said and done i was bitter cos i felt he was lying all along: he said he was fine w/it, but really, he was just *waiting*. which i also found insulting, at the end of it all, cos it was as if he didn't believe that i could know what i really wanted, as if i would "come around" or something. at least that's how i took it. but anyway good luck and be glad that you haven't made out w/each other or anything, cos that makes things worse, trust me.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
17:46 / 05.01.04
mantis, number nun is a friend of mine who knows my whole sob story...he was just being cheeky. but thanks for sticking up for me!

as for your comments...i think you (and others) are ultimately right. get away from her, pull the band aid off quick. it's what i'm moving towards now, or at least trying it out.

the only thing is that...this situation is different from yours because of her feelings...it didn't sound like you were into this guy at all as more than friends...my friend is, by her own admission, and she gets confused about it...it's like she is 2 steps away from dumping her boy and being with me...that's what it has felt like up until this xmas time when she saw him quite a bit...now she is sort of distant from me. at least today she is, ignoring a simple "are you ok?" email, and not calling me when she said she was going to call last night. kind of annoying.
 
 
+#'s, - names
17:48 / 05.01.04
Praying Mantis:

Actually I am good friends with Keith, it was a joke and I guarentee he took it that way. I have been hearing about his situation for months now. Sorry if I hurt your feelings, pm.

I have told keith repeatedly that I think this girl is nuts and to drop her, but if he is not willing to do that, he needs to turn the tides. A true isolationist approach is the only way it could ever turn around, if he runs, or at least gives her the idea that he is running, she will get the fear of lonelyness, not having someone here in nameless american city for her, and from that she will be clay for him to form in his image. Trouble with this approach is will he really want her love when its been manipulated? I say he should find out. But then I am known in some circles as a shallow bastard with hundreds of women in the greater nameless american city area who want me dead. Oh well. Such is the life of Number Nun. Nobody said pimping is easy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:00 / 05.01.04
I'm afraid you seem to be her emergency non-partner, Keith. She knows that, no matter how unattractive she may feel, no matter how much she dislikes herself or how badly she has ben rejected, you will be around to shower her with affection, tell her how wonderful and important she is, and generally make her seem and feel terrific.

People do not go out with their emergency partners. If they did, they might cease to be their emergency partners, and an emergency partner, along with the comforting knowledge that, were you to express the slightest interest, that emergency partner would be there in a shot, is far more valuable than a boy or girlriend. I'm very much afraid that if she *does* break up with her boyfriend, it is unlikely to be because of you and it is unlikely that she will than get together with you. If she has managed to avoid kisisng you for a year, you are onto God's own loser.

I hope I'm wrong, but... how about if you try getting some space? If she does come after you asking questions and flirting, explain gently that you have made your feelings for her clear, and it seems that circumstances are such that it is not possible for her to reciprocate, either by making her feelings clear or retunring your emotion. Although this is an unfortunate state of affairs, it is no reason why you should not be friends. You see each other at work, and could hang out outside it if it was not too awkward, perhaps after a sorbet period (but for God's sake, man, abandon the sleepovers and the hugging). However, it is clearly inappropriate for you to continue to press your case while she is involved with another man, and as such you are going to need to spend more time looking for somebody who is prepared to have the kind of relationship that you are looking for, id est one that exists.

It's not perfect, but you're in a bad place right now, which will end in all probability either in total abjection, apalling vitriol or getting into a fistfight with her boyfriend. If she dumps the boyf and gets with you, so much the better, but right now you're in a decaying orbit.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:03 / 05.01.04
But then I am known in some circles as a shallow bastard with hundreds of women in the greater nameless american city area who want me dead.

Yes... if only they knew what your name was, where you lived and that it was you nicking their pants from the washing line, you'd be in dead trouble.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
18:10 / 05.01.04
Haus, you rock. That's a really good read on the situation. Makes me feel much better about my current desire to back off. All of these posts are just making me feel emboldened to get this crap on track. I have to accept that you are probably right, she will probably never go out with me, especially since she has avoided hanky panky all this time...that always makes me doubt her claims of deep affection for me. That's a good simple point. There has been ample opportunity.
 
 
+#'s, - names
19:39 / 05.01.04
No, Haus, it isnt an Arnold Layne situation here, they hate me due to my addiction to stealing pies off of window sills.
 
 
pomegranate
19:41 / 05.01.04
number, it's all good. except you being an asshole in...cleveland. that's not good at all!
 
 
+#'s, - names
20:06 / 05.01.04
Damn! My super secret location was revealed by my once close and trusted friend, My Profile! PROFILE! HOW DARE YOU SELL ME OUT!?
 
 
Lilly Nowhere Late
20:23 / 05.01.04
Just one little thing. Keith, sugar, have you stopped to consider what
lovely things you have been missing out on all the while this chick has
been using you as her stand-in-but-stay-out boyfriend?
Don't keep missing out...
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
20:35 / 05.01.04
yeah, i have certainly thought about it...but she is just so damn perfect for me. not perfect, of course, but we have a lot in common, she's fantasticly gorgeous, and tons of fun.

however, she also makes me miserable. it's just really hard to give up on her.

anyway, she sent me this weird email to say she isn't ignoring me, that she is dealing with personal issues and needs 'me time.' to not be offended by her distant attitude.

ugh.
 
  

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