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Advice really needed...please

  
  

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Keith, like a scientist
05:45 / 10.01.04
awwwwwwww....that's so nice, Mr. Tricks.

olulubelle, thanks very much...this has definitely helped me through this week...it's been an insanely touch week. i don't think i've made a huge amount of positive progress lately, lots of backsliding, but i think that armed with the advice i've gotten, i was able to express what i needed on tuesday night, and at least admit for the first time to her that i couldn't go on as we have.

this has definitely put a slow down on what's been going on. before all this, she probably would have been over my apartment this cold friday night, and very probably sleeping in the spare room. she mentioned wanting to go out and get a drink with a group of people. i replied that some friends were in from out of town and some of their friends were going out tonight. she came back with a oh no since we've talked about cutting back, i didn't think we should hang out tonight. whatever. she was fishing, i'm sure.

anyway, i'm still having trouble with the quick Band-Aid course of action, so I think the slow down is the only route i can take, especially because of work. we have to be able to be friendly and show no big change in the workplace.

not sure what the weekend will bring. we have talked about talking this weekend to just stay in touch...but to not commit to getting together or anything. see what we both think. i know this isn't a great idea, but maybe we won't get together and just say hello how are you for a couple minutes on the phone. maybe.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
09:27 / 10.01.04
Keith, it sounds to me like you're trying, that's good isn't it? I think Deva hit it on the nail about "backsliding." Let's just say I've done my fair share of backsliding and can't really throw any stones. You're human, you're not a robot, you can't just turn your feelings off, at least you're making an effort.

Hang in there.
 
 
40%
12:01 / 10.01.04
The worst thing about this kind of situation is the way you lose touch with yourself. That's what can really mess you up. Getting so used to bending over backwards to accomodate someone else that you no longer seem to know or care how you feel or what you want.

This girl may not be acting maliciously, but she's dangerously confused. And I'm nobody to judge her harshly for that, I know I've hurt people in the past by being confused. But it's no reason for feel sorry for her. Those are her issues to resolve, not yours.

One bit made me particularly angry, which was when you said that she got upset with you for trying to kiss her. I mean, WTF? Surely that's par for the course given the way she is acting. She seems to be trying to control you. She doesn't want you too close, but she doesn't want you too far away either. And whenever you show signs of moving in either direction, she puts emotional pressure on you to stay where you are.

She doesn't seem to be much of a friend to you, so why should you be so concerned about being the perfect friend to her? A friend is someone who wants you to be who you are and wants you to feel comfortable around them, not someone who wants you to be something to them and tries to stop you from changing. And a friend is someone who can give you a straight answer about things, someone who lets you know where you are with them.

we've had the conversation about what she wants. after a particularly intense evening, she got a little freaked, and said again that maybe we aren't handling this very well. i asked her what she wanted. and her response was something like "what i want...i should probably keep what i want to myself. but it would really suck if we weren't friends anymore. what do you want?" i told her i couldn't think of the possibility of not being around her.

To me, that just sounds plain shifty. You asked her a legitimate question, and rather than telling you how it is, she dodges the question and turns it back on you. Don't you have a right to a straight answer? What the fuck does this girl want? Maybe she wants to keep everything vague so that she can have her cake and eat it. But she's doing so at your expense, my friend.

All of which I'm sure you already know. Don't feel too bad about it man, your story made me think of a situation I've been in. We've all had girls make a sap of us at one time or another. Just learn from it, and hopefully your future will be happier for it.
 
 
Char Aina
17:08 / 10.01.04
...learn from it, but try to remember that she is only one girl. i know a few folks (stupider than you seem, to be fair) who have bad attitudes towards women due to one BadGirlWithIssues clouding their judgement.
 
 
Mr Tricks
21:17 / 10.01.04
Seems like you should try treating this situation similar to quitting smoking or whatever.

Weither she's doing these things with malice or not is really secondary. What matters now is how you behave as you wheen yourself from this rather toxic addiction. Not that she's "toxic" but the dynamic between the 2 of you certainly is.

You've simply gotta be smarter than the both of you in this case. You'll end up more effectively helping her by helping yourself out of this situation. The half measures and backslides (while totally human and NOT a cause for self punishment) will ultimately just slow down the growth you (and perhaps she) are already moving towards.

So...

Are you journaling?
Have you made your to do wish list?
Will you be visiting any old friends (out of town or not)?
Taken up any new Hobbies?
Done any Charitable services?

if you don't fill the void with something fresh then of course the temptation to slide back into the more famuliar modes of behavior will be stronger.

How about subletting that spare bedroom for a month?

Or check out the "personals" just for exposure to new people?

any luck on a mercy fuck?
 
 
Squirmelia
08:33 / 15.01.04
How is the situation now? It's been a few days since we heard anything!
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
02:02 / 16.01.04
major backsliding...but i'm happy about it. a little confused, but happy.

basically, we got together saturday and had dinner and snuggled and got drunk all night. ended haviing a little nap in the same bed together the next morning...but we slept in separate beds. no hanky panky, just lots of lying together with my arms around here...

she tells me thinks she needs to break up with her boyfriend.

talk for an hour and 40 minutes sunday night. she talks to boyfriend for ten minutes. says she had a great time saturday night. that she thought about me a lot the whole day. that she doesn't want to visit her boy in 2 weeks.

tuesday night, we decide to get drinks. she tells me she doesn't think there will be a boyfriend at valentine's day. we sit in her car for a bit afterwards and chat. she tells me how much she appreciates me, that she likes me a lot. she leans over and kisses me on the cheek. then she leans in again and KISSES ME ON THE LIPS. i say she's funny. she says "why, cause i kissed you?" "yeah" "well, i wanted to."

tonight, she takes me to drop my car off at a mechanic. we get a drink afterwards. not much. she starts talking about vacationing with her boy. i say i thought there wasn't going to be a boy next month. she says she doesn't know.

she takes me home. i tell her i appreciate this, and give her a peck on the cheek. she snuggles her head next to me, so i give her a light peck on the lips, and she kissed back.

the kissing + the boyfriend dumping talk has me wondering...has she come to some conclusion? she said she talked to her sister about me on sunday (after our night of sleeping next to each other, snuggling) and has been very...affectionate since then.

so, major backsliding...i'm not sure i can get out of this situation...it just keeps getting closer and closer. she applied for another job, so the job thing might be a moot point soon...
 
 
foot long subbacultcha
08:06 / 16.01.04
Erm.. I just went back to your posts from the seventh, remembering what you said she said - not much more than a week ago. Things sound like they've been going all over the place in such a short amount of time. I can guess that a week feels like an age in current Keith time, Keith, but it's not really. Gods know I've done sod all in the last week.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
12:54 / 16.01.04
Keith, I really, really hope this thing works out for you, but try to bear one thing in mind.

Maybe she'll dump boyf in the next month. But until she does, the relationship between the two of you has not really changed, and it is just as precarious as it was when you started this thread.

With everything that's happened over the last few days, how will you feel if she turns you down after all? Until she makes her final decision, inasmuch as any of this is ever final, she's still gambling with your feelings. Worse now than she was before. Guard them, please?
 
 
Bear
13:02 / 16.01.04
Sounds like your having quite a difficult time Keith, but does anyone else feel a little sorry for the boyfriend - does he know any of this is going on? Does he love this girl as much as you do?
 
 
Whisky Priestess
17:06 / 16.01.04
Haven't time to read the entire thread (will later - full of good advice) but has anyone yet suggested getting interested in another laydee - not only to save your sanity, but to see whether, when it looks as though your affections may be directed elsewhere, she is prepared to get off the fence?

Best cure for love is love, after all ...
 
 
Char Aina
17:16 / 16.01.04
Maybe she'll dump boyf in the next month. But until she does, the relationship between the two of you has not really changed, and it is just as precarious as it was when you started this thread.



well, yeah.
but one thing may have changed.
she may have realised subconsciously that she is losing you, and needs to up the ante slightly.
maybe she snuggles and pecks cheeks now to keep you hingin', and if so, i would say that is much worse than it was before.

as usual, take my advice as you will, and remember i don't really know either of you two.
 
 
Mr Tricks
17:57 / 16.01.04
Hmmm... The Boyfriend is either
  1. Totally Fucked over
  2. Totally capable of taking care of himself


If it's the first, then you may be heading for problems... not that you may ever know.

just be warry of the "sweetening the Hook" phonomina that was mentioned earlier...
 
 
Cherry Bomb
14:55 / 02.02.04
Just wondering what's happening now, if you don't mind sharing. If you do, je comprends...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:42 / 02.02.04
It seems so far that all you've had from everyone is very sensible, honest, and fairly G-up advice. I do think as well you should possibly leave this - though it's going to be painful, it'll hurt less in the end, but then you've heard that already.

So here's the other kind anyway, of advice, of advice...

The next time you see her, just show up drunk. And when I say drunk I mean totally shitfaced. Being " mildly tipsy... " is for vicars and children, not the likes of you. You've been a rock to this girl, reliable, steady, always there when she needs you, but what would happen if for once you just weren't ? If you'd had, you know, ten or so pints of disastrous alcohol - If she does really love you, she'll get you back home.
And if not...
Oh well.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:44 / 02.02.04
in " Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid " Steve Martin's character makes an immortal comment abou relationshps. love and how it's all going to be. What he says, metaphorically, I'm assuming not literally, and this would just as easily apply to some guy, to some guy, is thimply this - " Shit on her. "
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:01 / 04.02.04
Just to reiterate something (and there's a lot of wonderful advice in this thread) that Deva said.

Don't expend energy beating yourself up. You're a human being with emotioans, there's nothing to beat yourself up for.

This is a really really hard situation (and like several people here, I've been This Girl. And you.) We make it sound clear-cut because it's not happening to us this minute, and was a while ago.

It's not, its messy and difficult and won't be linear.

Something else. Though it may seem like every moment is precious atm, *if* (and if i'm honest, I'm with the doubters on this, from how you've described it, the co-dependence/addiction model seems pretty accurate and is not a constructive one) it's going to work out and be all happily ever after, then taking some time away won't do any harm.

And almost certainly a lot of good. You'll be able to bring each other a bit of stability, she won't be fresh out of something else. Time is a healer....

And if it isn't going to work out, you'll be saving yourself more grief. And tbh, couldn't agree more with the person who said *you* are the last person who should be her listening ear. (I've definitely done this. It comes out of loneliness and insecurity but is a low trick and extremely fucked-up.)

And keep talking to us, K, if it helps. we're not here to tell you off/be disappointed in you. Value yourself, you're the most important thing. And maybe ask yourself how you'd feel if it was your best friend in this situation.
 
 
40%
17:35 / 04.02.04
And maybe ask yourself how you'd feel if it was your best friend in this situation.

Also, ask yourself whether you would feel right about treating her the way she treats you. These two tests always give me some perspective, between them.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
21:02 / 04.02.04
hmmm....well...what's happening now?

it's still pretty strange and messed up. she told me something last weekend that i don't feel comfortable revealing here...about her and her boy. basically, i should give up is what it amounts to.

it was odd...wasn't sad about it or anything, but i woke up the next morning and just didn't care much...i decided i'd like to still be friends with her, but i might as well back off and just be a normal friend. see if i can do it. and surprisingly i can and have been doing it. i still am very nice and close to her, but i just have stopped caring about it so much.

of course, the more i pull away the more she gets closer to me. after a week or so of purposely not touching her, purposely not getting into situations. not calling her, letting her call me, letting her make plans, etc. letting her email. she came over last night and we had a nice fun time. as she was getting ready to leave, she sat back down and laid on the couch...i got up and went to the kitchen. came back and she was still there. lying on the couch. i sat back down, and she ended up moving up closer to me and putting her hand and head on my leg...i just patted her on the back and waited for her to get up. i purposely didn't try to hug her and she didn't do anything.

she's confusing, but she's made her decision, i just have to live with being friends. i have female friends, quite a few...no reason i can't be just friends with this one...

anyway, that's my current mindset...that i just don't care as much. it doesn't depress me or prey on my mind...i just let it flow...if i feel like calling her, i do. if i feel like hanging out, i do. otherwise, i just leave it alone.

thanks for asking...if things get insane again...it's good to know i have a great community to talk to about this. right now...i'm just kind of "blah" about it.
 
 
Mr Tricks
23:29 / 04.02.04
well congratulations keith,

blah is not the worst place to be... and from all indications you really haven't embarressed, humiliated or done any physicial damage to yourself...

I'm still of the opinion that you could enjoy some new habits and perhaps a vacation out of town, hell, come out to California!!!
 
 
pomegranate
00:49 / 05.02.04
keith, good for you! i'm glad that you've stayed strong and not played along w/her little tokens of affection!
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
02:44 / 05.02.04
well, it's taken some news from her to get to this point, and the past couple weeks have been a cat and mouse game with our emotions...things are still a bit tense (sexually, intimately, emotionally, whatever), but this week i've just not thought about the misery of not being with her (which is what was on my mind heavily when i started this thread).

i still love her, and would still like things to go forward, but fretting about it and fixating on it wasn't really helping that...and one night the scales just fell from in front on my eyes and i just didn't want to care so much anymore...

thanks...who knows when the next inevitable backslide will be...
 
 
_Boboss
09:19 / 05.02.04
she sounds like a naughty nightmare. but the apathy is a good sign i think. say a few prayers for her poor boyfriend and let the whole thing settle into no - thing.
 
 
Ex
09:49 / 05.02.04
Good on you, Keith - it all sounds very functional and cool of you. I hope it's relatively smooth from hereon in.

As to her couch-lying activities; it looks as though you'll be the one guarding the border between friendship and dodgyotherstuff, then. I think she should be pulling at least equal shifts.

When I gave up on someone I liked, I was suddenly barraged with hugs and cheek kissing. Fortunately, on the - fourth? - occasion, I lost my poise and flapped at the cheek-kisser, shouting "What are you doing? What's all this bollocks? Get off!". Immediate cessation.
I think your friend's behaviour is fairly standard - the much-liked partner tries to regain past intimacy while not being prepared to deal with any of the confusion and pain it causes. Because it's nice to be liked, even by people you don't see yourself having a future with. IF YOU'RE EVIL. Sorry, personal issues bubbling.

I suppose the only solution is to stick rigidly to what you're comfortable with. It's a shame she isn't helping you with that. And you're doing an impressive job, so - just congrats, really.
 
 
gornorft
09:59 / 05.02.04
My GOD I wish I'd found this thread earlier!

I just read through the whole thing and it looks like I've found it too late... but I'm sure I haven't really. As long as you have anything to do with this lovely, desirable girl that you want to do nasty, fun things to, your life will be a never ending series of heartaches and tortures. I've been there. In fact, I've been both of you.

I have been royally fucked around and I have royally fucked around another. Neither was much fun (but the latter actually hurt me more).

When I was playing your part though, I ended up causing a scene at work that was so embarrasing that she quit the company and went away, supposedly forever. I myself quit and left a few months later.

Years later, like FIFTEEN years layer, I got a Christmas card from her signed 'Your Friend Forever" and with those few words she still managed to rip my heart in two, after all that time.

I know this isn't a nice thing to say, or helpful, or constructive, but Keith, you are marked for life with this girl. You are doomed.

DOOOOOMED!
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
10:35 / 05.02.04
Ever considered being an agony uncle, JAMM?

Dear JAMM,
At school, I often find it difficult to make friends. All the other kids...

YOU'RE DOOMED!!! DOOOOOOOMED!!!
 
 
Cat Chant
12:30 / 05.02.04
I lost my poise and flapped at the cheek-kisser, shouting "What are you doing? What's all this bollocks? Get off!".

Ex, I love you. Have you copyrighted this move or can we all try it?
 
 
illmatic
13:55 / 05.02.04
I think Keith should try it next time she pulls that thoughtless manipulative shit! Go Keith!
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
16:53 / 05.02.04
yeah...but it's nice to be liked...or touched. that's my weakness, but so far, so good. i've avoided any kind of reciprocation lately...just seeing if i can make the strictly platonic friendship work.

either it will or it won't. or it will drive her mad/closer to me. which is certainly possible based on past experience with her.

it's been pleasant just hanging out and not really caring whether things go anywhere. i'm still insanely attracted to her, though. but i'd like to stay friends.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
15:49 / 11.03.04
So, how are things these days? Any better? J'espere que oui
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:23 / 11.03.04
well things have been pretty busy, my girlfriend and I are moving into a new victorian duplex built in 1910 (well it's not new but it new for us). We've been spending the whole week painting and repairing it while our dogs run around the yard playing with the 3 other dogs that will share the back yard. It's . . . Oh!!! you where asking Keith.

so sorry,

I hope the relative quiet on this thread means he's been out and about traveling, making new friends, and getting laid in a variety of exotic new encounters . . .

well what's the word then?
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
22:32 / 10.04.04
hi...sorry i didn't respond to the last couple posts asking how things were....

well, let's see, i think "fucked up" is a good phrase.

i could talk forever about this, but i just give the salient points leading up to today's miserable post:
february
-lived with me for a week
-lived in hotel with boyfriend for a week. was miserable. he deserted her constantly.
-moved into new apartment 2 min walk from my apartment
-hung out every night/day afterwards.
-asks me to be her "backup" - you know, that thing where if we turn 35 and aren't married, we get married
-then tells me she has been thinking about me a lot since the week she stayed with me. "fantasy" is one word she uses. she doesn't know what to do regarding me versus her boyfriend. she cried one night when she slept with him. because of me.
-we have some drunken half make out sessions.
-comes over the other night and tells me she really wants to kiss me. we kiss, she says she has to go home so she can be respectful of her relationship
-i tell her i don't understand this anymore. i really want to be with her and it seems she wants to, as well. we are practically dating.
-she gets mad, tells me she doesn't need me questioning her feelings.
-right after that, she gets on phone with boyfriend. they start arguing about commitment, she brings up the statement he made in january about getting engaged in 4 months. he says he isn't ready. she tells him she can't do it anymore. says to get another ride from the airport, find somewhere else to stay this weekend.
-he says he is sorry, he is ready now, the next day. she worries that he will talk her into getting back together again, and the same thing will happen.
-they are talking today. the breakup was 3-4 days ago.
-i'm going out of my wits today. i think he will give in and propose to her. things will be over with us after being so damn close and loving the past couple months.

since she moved in, we have become so incredibly close. just ridiculously close. i have no idea what is going to happen now.

argh.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:44 / 10.04.04
Oh Keith, can you not read what you've written?
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
22:59 / 10.04.04
i can read it...i just can't understand it. or i refuse to understand it.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
14:27 / 11.04.04
yep, they are back together. he convinced her with some promises, apparently. no idea what they are.

"i thought you didn't want to get back together?"

"i never said that. i said i didn't know if it was the right decision."

fine. fuck this. happy fucking easter.
 
  

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