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The Geeky X-Men Thread

 
  

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Persephone
11:20 / 07.05.03
*lights cigarette on the last flickering flame of Flux's Phoenix manifestation*

That was great, baby.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
11:22 / 07.05.03
While events in, say, Excalibur may have been fairly irrelevant to X-Continuity on the whole, I would argue that that their relative irrelevance doesn't necessarily diminish the quality of the stories. I think, for instance, that Claremont and Davis' Excalibur was pretty top-notch stuff, even if not the most crucial bit of the overall X-Men saga.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:34 / 07.05.03
Right. When I say that the events of some of these ancillary X-Men series aren't of any particular consequence or relevance, it should not be read as a dismissal of those series. My aim in giving the synopsis above was to cover the major events of the series, the ones that have some sort of lasting effect on the characters. I skimmed over a lot of things, but I feel that most of those things are ultimately just footnotes and would just make things more confusing. It's a question of emphasis, really - I could give a very detailed summary of the New Mutants, but a lot of it would just take away from the focus of where the overall X-Men franchise was at any given time.

Can I just ask you ā€“ you (rightly, Iā€™m sure) say certain storylines and the like were irrelevant overall ā€“ did you have any kind of feeling that that was the case when you were reading them ?

Well, it depends. Through the 90s I definitely had a feeling of "oh, what now..." when I followed the series - I had lost a significant chunk of interest in the series following the departure of Chris Claremont, and grew very pessimistic about the series though I kept following it out of equal measures of loyalty and morbid curiousity. In a way, I guess I didn't think things like X-Ecutioner's Song very seriously mostly because of how awful it was. At that time, I was pretty heavy into Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol, Shade The Changing Man, Keith Giffen's Legion of Super Heroes and Justice League, so my heart was in that stuff.

The horrible period of the 90s came at a good time for me, I guess - most of it happened during a period during which I was becoming less invested in comics as a whole, so I didn't care too much. I did buy and/or read it all, but with almost nonexistant expectations. Once Lobdell started showing some glimmer of talent towards the end of his run and Joe Kelly took over, I started getting back into the X-Men again - this was in my first year of college, I think. At that time, Uncanny X-Men and X-Men were the only comics I was bothering with, mostly because I was spending most of my spending money on music at the time. Then it all went bad again, and I just kinda kept tabs on the series by reading it at newstands and comics shops up until Grant Morrison took over.

I guess I can say that I'm happy with the X-line right now, it's definitely the best it has been since 1988 or so. That long period of time between Chris Claremont's departure and Grant Morrison's arrival is funny, cos as much as what has happened, not all that much of it really added to the franchise at all and any continuity that must be observed by current writers from that time can be easily swept under the rug.

I obviously really love New X-Men and X-Statix, and I approve of (but don't really enjoy) X-Treme X-Men. I think Uncanny X-Men is a mess under both Joe Casey and Chuck Austen, but I suppose they haven't done too much to muck things up. It seems like Uncanny X-Men is like the backseat of the X-Men franchise now, all of the major characters and plot developments are in the hands of Claremont and Morrison. I think that Claremont has improved greatly after his nearly unreadable first year back on the X-Men and the first year or so of X-Treme. He seems to have taken a hint and cut down on the text he's been putting on page, he's playing nice with Morrison, and he's come up with a coherant and logical reason for the X-treme group to exist, so that's great. It seems like X-Treme may be getting somewhat interesting now that Igor Kordey has taken over the art, I'm definitely going to keep my eye on it. I think I'm going to check out the upcoming revival of the New Mutants, but mostly because I really loved the New Mutants as a little kid.

As for the non-core series - I've never really read Wolverine's solo stuff. I can't think of a single thing that's ever been particularly relevant that ever happened in that title. Same goes for Cable, Gambit, etc - solo series are almost invariably worthless.
 
 
Dan Fish - @Fish1k
12:47 / 07.05.03
Mopping up a few questions:

Generation Next was set in the Age of Apocalypse alternate world


Gambit / Sinister
I was curious about this too, and got more or less this answer from the Gambit yahoogroup:
The vial that Sinister gave Gambit in UXM 350 contained a portion of Gambits powers - He is naturally capable of travelling through time, but could not properly control his powers, so Sinister altered his DNA and stored it in the vial. Apparently this was explained in the issues of Gambit's own title leading up to #25. These should be reprinted in the UK over the next year or two, in the panini reprint title 'Wolverine & Gambit'.
 
 
The Strobe
13:00 / 07.05.03
Come on then: could you elaborate on what the Hellfire Club was? It's being referenced in lots of NXM and X2 threads, and I have no idea about it or its seeming hierarchy.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:01 / 07.05.03
Qal Yn and Solitaire Rose - thank you very much for the information about Paul Smith and Len Wein.

Smith's remarks seem very right-on to me. Going back to the 80s Claremont X-Men, one thing that really made the X-Men series stand out from the other superhero comics was in how the female characters were portrayed. The women are always crucial characters, and Claremont went out of his way to make them strong, self-reliant characters with pride and depth. The women in the X-Men and the New Mutants were never tokens, and more often than not were the key characters in storylines rather than the male characters. I think that the fact that the X-Men had such progressive attitudes in the portrayal of female and minority characters is a major part of why the series became so successful. It reached out to an audience that may well be very put off by a series like the Avengers.

For those who may be interested in seeing some images by Paul Smith, you can view some of his covers on the following links. However, his interior pages are what really floor me, and I think his art looks better without the dated coloring techniques of the early 80s. If you really want to see his art and appreciate his amazing technique, you really need to check out the black and white Essential X-Men Volume 4. You get some really excellent Romita Jr. art at the end of the book too, including the issue that John Romita Sr. inked, which is very beautiful and striking.

165

166

167

168

170

172

173

174

175
 
 
DaveBCooper
13:02 / 07.05.03
Thanks, Flux - understand your approach completely (felt that way about the Bat-titles over the years). No intention to stickybeak, honest.

To answer the question posed earlier, Byrne might well be my fave X-artist overall - loved his work with Austin, though I now find Claremont's style a bit text-heavy when I re-read the stories. Great art, though, and as someone noted, the Essential volume reprinting this run looks great.
 
 
gergsnickle
13:23 / 07.05.03
Flux, your fantastic summary of the X-1990s almost makes me want to go back and wade through those issues I missed - as it is I believe I will be re-reading the issues I do have from the 80s. Thank you.

Question: what is the deal with Jean Grey in New X-Men? I mean, is she a) the Jean Grey pulled from the pod shortly before X-Factor #1 b) the original Jean Grey (as if the whole Phoenix thing never happened) or c) something else entirely? I have been wondering about this since the start of New X-Men and I'm sure one of you out there knows the answer.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:32 / 07.05.03
Ye gods. I feel dirty and yet somehow sated...Gambit has time-travelling powers? That wer kept in a vial? Fuck me...

Yeah, it is established sometime during the original British Psylocke's time with the X-Men that she has artificial eyes given to her by Mojo, and they were being used as surveillance cameras to spy on the X-Men and the footage was broadcast on Mojo's crazy tv world.

Psylocke lost her eyes while filling in as Captain Britain, I think to Slaymaster, during one of Brian Braddock's periodic time-outs. Brian Braddock, by the way, along with Meggan, the warpies, Linda McQuillan (Captain UK) and various other characters, appear in Excalibur, which I would argue was probably the most consistently interesting X-title going, excepting Lobdell's diabolically poor stint, for its combination of the lunacy of Alan Moore's Captain Britain universe and the convalescent X-Men (oh, and - briefly - Marvel UK's answer to the Days of Future Past).

She (Psylocke) then got given her eyes back by Mojo, to helm his new show on the Wildways (New Mutants Anuual). A number of other minor characters were also manipulated into idealised versions of themselves, but the day was saved by young Cipher. Despite knowing they must be dodgy, she could not bear to blind herself, and the eyes broadcast "Real World: Greymalkin Avenue" back to Mojoverse (do we need to do Mojoverse? It's *really* shit). This stopped being a problem when Psylocke's cosnciousness was placed in the body of (ahem) the ninja assassin Kwannon by Spiral (Mojo's henchman, specialising in body modification surgery), although Psylocke's old body, possessed by Kwannon, turned up, eyes and all, as Revanche, and spent a schizophrenic period at the X-mansion before tearing out her eyes and disappearing off to die of the Legacy Virus. It is a mark of how shit the Legacy Virus actually was that "Psylocke's old body inhabited by a generic ninja" was one of its major casualties.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:37 / 07.05.03
The Jean Grey who appears in New X-Men is the one pulled from the pod in Fantastic Four and starred in the X-Factor series and everything else from there on out. She is also the same Jean Grey from the original X-Men series of the 60s. She is not the Jean Grey who appeared as Phoenix in the late 70s in Chris Claremont's X-Men, though as I understand it, she has recovered many of those memories somehow. It would be very easy for Grant to explain that there was only one Jean Grey along, and that the Jean who died on the moon is the same being as the one found in Jamaica Bay, but that's just speculation.

As for the Hellfire Club - I'm not really prepared to give a full explanation off the top of my head about it, but they are basically a group of wealthy mutants from priveleged old-money families, and the club dates back to Victorian England. They are like a cabal of industrialists, politicians, and generally very powerful people who all have a taste for very decadent and kinky lifestyles. They are all prone to in-fighting, and nearly everyone in the group is looking to murder and usurp another.

There's a fairly high turnover rate in Hellfire Club membership, but the major members were Sebastian Shaw (the head of the club, the Black King), Emma Frost, Jason "Mastermind" Wyngarde, Jean Grey as Dark Phoenix, Tessa (aka Sage from X-Treme X-Men), Donald Pierce, Harry Leland, Selene, Friedrich von Roehm, and Magneto for a time during the mid 80s. They all have their names taken from chess pieces, which give you a sense of their rank - Black King, Black Queen, White Queen, Black Rook, etc
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:41 / 07.05.03
This may help you understand the Hellfire Club.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:07 / 07.05.03
The Hellfire Club, for what it's worth, is based on a real organization.

Benjamin Franklin was a member.
 
 
Uatu.is.watching
14:32 / 07.05.03
Wow! This is great! Thanks Flux. If X2 hadn't already gotten me in X-mania mode, I'm certainly there now.

I'd love to see a recap of the New Mutants, either here or in another thread. I'm still not sure that I understand all of the permutations of Warlock (and/or other members of his race?)I had stopped reading the X-titles soon after Wolverine had his skeleton removed, and a few years later I picked up the Phalanx Covenant, and I was completely lost. How were those guys connected to Warlock?

Also, to veer even more off topic, I sampled a bit of the Onslaught storyline when that was coming out. That led into the whole Heroes Reborn deal, right? What was the story there? Are the heroes that were reborn the same as the old standbys?

While I'm at it, I have a couple "where are they now" type questions. Whatever happpened to Lockheed? What's Gambit up to these days? How about Selene? And weren't Team America hanging around with the New Mutants for a while?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:34 / 07.05.03
I'd love to see a recap of the New Mutants, either here or in another thread.

If someone else would like to try doing that, I think that would be a great idea, and should definitely be a part of this thread to keep things neat and tidy. My memory on the New Mutants is sort of patchy - I read it in on and off spurts as a kid for some reason. I'm actually kinda confused by Warlock, Magus and their techno-race myself, and it only gets more headache-inducing when the Phalanx and (groan...) Douglock come into the picture.

The Onslaught story did create the "Heroes Reborn" pocket continuity universe thing (how very DC of them...), but I really don't know the specifics of it all. I won't touch those Heroes Reborn comics, man. All you need to know about them is that they don't really take place in the "real" Marvel Universe, and that all of those characters eventually come back to mainstream Marvel continuity as if nothing had ever happened.

Lockheed's still around. I think he was in the Kitty Pryde "Mechanix" miniseries that Chris Claremont did this year, but I might be wrong. Paul Smith drew a little back-up story that Claremont wrote about Lockheed that was printed in the X-Men Unlimited anthology this year, in the same issue with a New Mutants reunion story by Claremont and Bill Sienkiewicz. That issue came out last month, I think.

Gambit is currently in the X-Treme X-Men comic, but he and Rogue went off to do something or other, and haven't been in the past several issues. They both will be returning to X-Treme X-Men later in the year.

I have no idea about Selene - I think she was used as a villain in the X-Man series for a while.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:23 / 07.05.03
Smith's remarks seem very right-on to me. Going back to the 80s Claremont X-Men, one thing that really made the X-Men series stand out from the other superhero comics was in how the female characters were portrayed.

Actually, Flux, I think this is just the stuff Smith is talking about. Claremont had a real noir, S&M approach to writing women, where everything they achieved was at the cost of the souls/potency/happiness of the men associated with them. Marvel Girl couldn't just be the kicky chick in the mini skirt with the big brain powers, she had to be a planet-eating harridad who breaks Scott's & Logan's hearts; Rogue was introduced (subtextually) as a voracious lesbian in a love/power struggle with Mystique, Oracle and Carol Danvers; the type can be found in his approach to Rachel, Storm, Callisto and Emma, and probably lots more. I think it's the between-the-lines kinkiness of Claremont's X-Men that really powered it, and Smith wanted to draw Kitty having fun adventures.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:36 / 07.05.03
Face = Red

I'm so embarassed about misreading Paul Smith's comments so badly - I didn't for a moment stop to consider that his experience on Uncanny X-Men shaped his feelings, I thought that he was reacting to the rest of the industry. Though I do agree about Claremont having some odd issues with women, I don't think his work was really misogynistic, certainly not in comparison to the rest of the comics industry at that time.

It is odd how it works boths ways at least most of the time during that period of time, particularly if you're just a naive kid.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:39 / 07.05.03
It's also interesting in that as much as Grant Morrison and Joe Casey talked about wanting to bring the sexuality back to the X-Men, neither of them have come close to being even half as subtextually kinky as Claremont was in his prime.

Claremont is a dirty, dirty man!

I know that there have been a lot of rumors about Claremont's sexuality that have come up on Barbelith, but does anyone know about any interviews where he speaks frankly about his sexuality, or about the sexual subtext of his X-Men?
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
17:18 / 07.05.03
"It would be very easy for Grant to explain that there was only one Jean Grey along, and that the Jean who died on the moon is the same being as the one found in Jamaica Bay"

Claremont already did that. He did a great job of cleaning up the Phoenix Mess in some back up stories in Classix X-Men.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:27 / 07.05.03
For real?

Wow. I'd been under the impression that they hadn't cleared that up for well over a decade now.
 
 
doctorbeck
12:34 / 08.05.03
i stopped reading in a fit of geek boy discgust at the end of Inferno, all those loose ends being tied up just got too Dynasty for me in the end, then they went to Australia.

however i did buy the Imperial tbp this week on the strength of really enjoying x2 and discussions of morrisons work on nxm on this list and it looks like the intervening 13 years of not reading were just some big daft dream and we've picked up where classic claremont (pre-issue 200)left off, which is not bad thing.

however my inner geek is wondering about what happened to Pheonix-from-the-future-who-ended-up-in-excalibur. and how did they BOTH get possessed by the pheonix force.

andrew
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:18 / 08.05.03
Question: what is the deal with Jean Grey in New X-Men? I mean, is she a) the Jean Grey pulled from the pod shortly before X-Factor #1 b) the original Jean Grey (as if the whole Phoenix thing never happened) or c) something else entirely? I have been wondering about this since the start of New X-Men and I'm sure one of you out there knows the answer.

There was actually a point where I believe PAUL SMITH was drawing X-Factor. One storyline actually brought them out into space where Jean Grey & "the Phoenix" where reunited. From that point on they were consider one person as she had to deel with all the memories & subsiquent guilt associated with the actions of Phoenix/Dark Phoenix...

WORLOCK:
in short worlock was a mutant because he was the only member of some techno-organic race that had no desire to

  1. Kill his father Magnus adn replace him.
  2. Spread his techno-organic virus everywhere.

it turns out the race of "Phalanx" converts organic mater to techno mater so sa to absorb it's "energy" to live. With the New Mutants Worloc realized the value of life in all it's forms and learned to absorb alternative forms of energy.

At one point Magnus showed up on earth and was defeated by getting thrown into the Limbo of Illyania/MAGIK. Her mutant power being the ability to create disks-of-light that would open portals into "limbo" and through limbo access space/time & alternate dimensions.

With Magnus falling into limbo he converted almost all of the demon population into technot-organic demons before being killed or some such. IT was a war between the techno-organic demons & the remainding "puritian" Demons that spilled out into normal space as the INFERNO storyline.

Douge ramses/Cypher and Worlock had many intimate relations as He was the major factor in enabling Worlock to comunicate & er, develop humanity. Eventually this resulted in team-ups where Worlock would become a sort of Mecha-suit for Dogue & they would fight together.

Dogue was killed before he found out he was inadvertantly infected with the "technorganic" virus & Douglock was born when the "dead" remains of worlock were placed on Doug's grave. A worlock type creature was born with the mental imprint of Doug...

One of the great things abouit Excalibur where the explainations of mutant powers. A thorough exploration of Nightcrawler's powers, including primary & secondary mutations. Revealed his appearance & wall crawling where inherated traits while HIS true mutant power was his teleportation. His secondary ability to turn almost invisible in darkness was a result of lightbending properties that where a side effect of his ability to teleport... fun geek stuff.

A similar exploration of Phoenix occured which included her Whupping Galactus's but in single combat. The explaination, Galactus's power is derived from all the dead-end civilasations/planets he's consumed. Phoenix draws her power from the unlimited potential of life that has yet to take shape... again fun Geek stuff with beautful Alan Davis art.

He also did an excellent resolution of the DAYs of the FUTURE PAST Universe as well...

Pheonix-from-the-future-who-ended-up-in-excalibur. and how did they BOTH get possessed by the pheonix force.

Racheal got in touch with the phoenix force when she touched a Sha'ir crystal that was designed as a gift for Jean Grey's parents. The Crystal would resonate with the person's (Jean's) soul and anyone touching the crystal would sort of make contact with the departed soul. As this happend in the space between the "death" ofthe 1st Phoenix & the re-emergance of Jean Grey. Racheal became the new earthly manafestation of PHOENIX.

This continued to be the case until she departed for her future. At around that same time Jean (already back in the picture) had her opportunity to reclaim the Phoenix as I mentioned above.
Racheal remained in the distant future as an "ASKANI" raised her half-brother (who would be Cable). She actually arranged for Scott & Jean's consciousness to be pulled into the future to inhabit custom cloned bodies So they could participate in Raising Cable in preperation of his conflict with a very old Apocolyps/El Sabin Nur. Racheal dies in this future... After raising Cable for a bunch of year Scott & Jean are retuned to their 20th century bodies at the exact moment they we ulled from them. Of course with the memories & knowlage of who Cable really is.

there where some recurring Villians that I tought where also significnat to the X-mythos:

SHADOW KING:

HELLFIRE CLUB:

Reavers/cyborgs:

Sauron:
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:25 / 08.05.03
Just to make things more clear, these are the proper spellings of the names from Mr. Tricks's post:

Doug Ramsey
Warlock
Magus
Illyana Rasputin
Rachel Summers
Shi'Ar
Apocalypse
En Sabah Nur

Also: Though he pops up a few times over, I really don't think Sauron is a significant part of X-history.
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:56 / 08.05.03
Tankz fore da spelt tchek...

Though he pops up a few times over, I really don't think Sauron is a significant part of X-history.

Well Sauron stuck me as interesting in that he seemed like a forerunner of Cassandra Nova. He was a Human infected with some sort of virus that turned him into a sort of energy Vampire. Touching people he would syphon a portion of their energy... However he found his true calling when he first attempted to syphon energy from a mutant. This resulted in him mutating as well... into a winged dinoaur being with wings & such.
From that point on he became one of the few being that actually preyed on mutants. What was that illness about & how did he catch it? I rememember the launch of MARVEL FANFARE which included a Savage Land set story featuring Sauron & climaxed with Art by non other than PAUL SMITH...

I thought he was a cool charactor and certainly not over-used...
 
 
Ethan Hawke
19:27 / 08.05.03
Slugged - "How the X-Men comic book series abandoned integrationsim in favor of Al Sharpton-style racialism [sic]"

Heh.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
20:24 / 08.05.03
"For real?

Wow. I'd been under the impression that they hadn't cleared that up for well over a decade now."

Yeah, I'll try and hunt down the specific story, but basicly Jean/Phoenix made a back up body and transfered her own consciousness into it and left her original body to heal and promptly forgot about it in the trauma of her rebirth.

So it WAS Jean who killed herself on the moon and it was the same Jean in her original body that was pulled out of the pod in Jamaca Bay.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:49 / 08.05.03
The proper spelling of "Apocalypse" is, btw, "Apocalypse".

Oh, and if anyone has evidence of Claremont's sexual preferences and tastes, could they FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BURN IT?
 
 
Mr Tricks
21:23 / 08.05.03
Yeah, I'll try and hunt down the specific story, but basicly Jean/Phoenix made a back up body and transfered her own consciousness into it and left her original body to heal and promptly forgot about it in the trauma of her rebirth.

That took place in one of John Byrne's later issue of FANTASTIC FOUR #286
After the Avengers found her cocoon in jamica Bay & followed by X-factor #1.
 
 
Gary Lactus
22:16 / 08.05.03
Thankyou everyone for the useful information, especially Flux. I only have one question: When and how did Beast turn blue and furry?

ANSWER ME NOW, GEEKS!
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
22:33 / 08.05.03
The Beast turned blue and furry in the first issue of his own series in Amazing Adventures 11 when he drank a liquid that caused him to mutate again...he was grey and furry for a couple of issues until he turned blue. These were written by Steve Englehart and drawn by Tom Sutton who did a LOT of horror work for Charton and porn work for Fantagraphics.

This led to his appearances in The Avengers (which was my favorite version of the charater) where he was "the bouncing Beast" who was incredibly popular with women due to a side effect of his mutation that emitted powerful phermones. He was de-furred in the first issue of X-Factor (or maybe the last issue of the Defenders) but was made furry again within a year or two.
 
 
Mr Tricks
23:27 / 08.05.03
He was de-furred in the first issue of X-Factor (or maybe the last issue of the Defenders) but was made furry again within a year or two.
actually it was like the 3rd issue of X-factor...

Beast was a member of the Defenders along side Angel & Iceman both of whome where also members of The Champions
 
 
videodrome
00:58 / 09.05.03
The Defenders: best worst superhero team ever.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
01:20 / 09.05.03
3rd issue? Really? Hm....

The first 5 issues of X-Factor are prolly the biggest trainwreck of Marvel during the 80's. It was pretty painful.
 
 
moriarty
02:14 / 09.05.03
Champions vs. Defenders.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
04:15 / 09.05.03
I always disliked X-Factor as a kid. X-Factor was pretty much always a lifeless, unnecessary comic book. The only issues of the original X-Factor which were even close to enjoyable (or noteworthy) were the Claremont/Whilce Portacio issues towards the end of the run before Peter David took over. The Peter David issues were amusing, but I tend to think of X-Factor as being a totally different (and entirely pointless) thing from there on out.
 
 
Dan Fish - @Fish1k
07:47 / 09.05.03
The whole phoenix thing was explained in an issue of Excalibur (52?) drawn by Will Simpson. I don't have it to hand right now, or I would summarise it.
 
  

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