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The Geeky X-Men Thread

 
  

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Matthew Fluxington
16:37 / 06.05.03
Spinning off from the X-Men 2 movie thread, it may be a good idea to have a thread to cover any and all X-Men questions, trivia, and geeky fan stuff that does not fit into our regular New X-Men threads and the movie discussion.

Do you have an X-Men question? Ask it. Surely one of us will know the answer.

To kick off this thread, I'd like to ask a question that I've been curious about - aside from Frank Quitely, who is your favorite X-Men illustrator?

Mine would have to be Paul M Smith. Like Quitely, he only drew ten issues of the series, but his streamlined, graceful drawings have a big place in my heart. Smith came from a background in animation, and it shows - he has an incredible gift for gesture and implication of physical motion, as well as a genuine talent for layout and design. His drawings are very stylized without being too warped, and everything always looks crisp and clean, devoid of unnecessary lines.
 
 
somavee
16:50 / 06.05.03
I don't have a a favorite penciller, but I would have to say I prefer Kordey to Quitely, as least as far as the New X-Men are concerned. There is something a bit sterile bout Quitely's faces, I'm not sure how to pin it.
 
 
Persephone
16:59 / 06.05.03
Can I put my question from my livejournal here, then? Here it is:

"Hey Flux, I know this is sort of a huge request... but could you give me a thumbnail of X-Men history? They started as just "X-Men," right? When did all this "Uncanny" and "Extreme" and "New" business get started? Not including stuff like Wolverine, how many X-Men lines are out there now?"

Geeky X-Men could be the next big thing...
 
 
MojoJojo
17:07 / 06.05.03
Hi

After Quitely, I'd pick John Romita Jr. (second run during the mid '90s).

Nice gritty and violent lines.

There are artists I'd like to see draw Morrison's x-men. Much like Quitely, I think Brendan McCarthy, Seth Fisher, or Geof Darrow could all add a paranoid & surreal touch to the books.

Small chance of that happening, of course.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:08 / 06.05.03
I did this once before on Barbelith, but I really don't want to try to find it. Here it goes, basic X-Men history.

The original series was simply titled X-Men, and started in 1963. (The series would eventually be retitled The Uncanny X-Men a few years after Chris Claremont takes over the series in the mid-70s.) The original X-Men were Cyclops, Jean "Marvel Girl" Grey, Beast, Angel, and Iceman, led by Professor Xavier. The original X-Men series isn't anything too special, really - compared to other Marvel series of the same era like The Fantastic Four or The Amazing Spider-Man, it pales in comparison. Either way, many key concepts and characters that have remained with the X-Men to this day are introduced during this original period, such as Magneto and the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, the Sentinels, and the Juggernaut. Other characters and places introduced during this period include Cyclops's brother Havok and his girlfriend Polaris (who may or may not be the daughter of Magneto), the Irish mutant Banshee, The Multiple Man, and the Jurassic Park-meets-Tarzan Ka-Zar and the Savage Land.

In the late 60s, the X-Men get a second wind when Neal Adams becomes the artist of the series with writer Roy Thomas, but sales are low, and the title is effectively cancelled. It becomes a reprint series from somewhere in the #60s until issue #94.

In 1974, Marvel decides to give the X-Men another chance, and writer Len Wein and artist Dave Cockrum introduce a new generation of X-Men in the special Giant-Size X-Men #1. Wein and Cockrum's characters are an international lot and included Wolverine (who appeared previously in a Wein-penned issue of The Incredible Hulk), Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Thunderbird, as well as two obscure characters from the original series, Banshee and Sunfire.

For reasons I am not aware of, Len Wein decides not to continue on with the X-Men after that special, and a young relative newcomer to Marvel named Chris Claremont is assigned to the series. Thunderbird is killed off in the Claremont's first story, and Sunfire leaves the group. Cyclops, Jean Grey, and Professor X stick around, while the rest of original group pop up here and there, and appear in other Marvel series. Angel and Iceman were part of the misfit superhero group The Defenders, and Beast was a member of the Avengers.

The most notable event of the original Claremont/Cockrum run was the reintroduction of Jean Grey as the Phoenix. After a plane crash into the ocean near Jamaica Bay in Queens during which she was exposed to deadly levels of cosmic radiation, Jean miraculously emerges from the water with exponentially increased powers.

Cockrum leaves after a few years, and John Byrne becomes the new artist on the series. The original Cockrum run, along with Giant Size #1 is collected in The Essential X-Men volume 1.

Byrne and Claremont's partnership is a more involved collaboration, and Byrne is frequently listed as co-plotter/co-writer with Claremont. Many people consider this to be the greatest era of the X-Men, and nearly 30 years on, it remains the basis for many of today's storylines.

During the Claremont/Byrne period we are introduced to the Canadian superhero group Alpha Flight, the X-Men's ally (and Charles Xavier's ex-girlfriend) Dr. Moira McTaggert and her dangerous god-like mutant son Proteus, The Hellfire Club (and Emma Frost), Kitty Pryde, the mutant disco diva Dazzler, Lilandra, the Shi'Ar empire and the Imperial Guard. During the seminal Dark Phoenix storyline, Mastermind and the Hellfire Club corrupt Jean Grey, who eventually goes mad and becomes Dark Phoenix. Dark Phoenix goes on an intergalactic killing spree, destroying entire worlds. The Shi'Ar empire want her destroyed, but during a showdown on the moon between the X-Men and the Imperial Guard, Jean commits suicide to stop herself from doing any more damage.

Cyclops leaves the X-Men, but Angel rejoins the group along with teenaged newcomer Kitty Pryde. The next major storyline takes place in the first of the numerous dystopian futures in X-Men continuity, Days Of Future Past. In this story, we see the dark future that happens as a result of Mystique's Brotherhood Of Evil Mutants murdering Senator Robert Kelly. In this future, we meet an adult Kitty Pryde, as well as the adult children of this reality's Cyclops and Jean Grey, Rachel Summers. She has all of the power of her mother, as well as an ability to tap into the Phoenix force. We also meet the adult Franklin Richards, son of Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman from the Fantastic Four. In this future, the X-Men have been mostly wiped out the Sentinels, many mutants are placed in concentration camps, and some mutants are used as "hounds" to hunt down other mutants. Luckily the X-Men stop Mystique's Brotherhood, but that is not the last we see of that particular alternate future reality.

Pretty much the entire Byrne X-Men run can be found in the Essential X-Men volume 2 compilation.

Byrne leaves the series, and Cockrum returns for a second run. Nothing particularly memorable occurs during the second Cockrum run, it is mostly just a string of forgettable superhero stories. Magneto makes a comeback during this period, and it is revealed that he was a Holocaust survivor around this time. This is the beginning of grey-morality Magneto. All of this can be found in the Essential X-Men volume 3.

After that valley, the series is about to hit another peak in the early 80s when artist Paul M Smith takes over the series for a year. During this period of time, there is an extended storyline featuring an X-Men version of the Aliens of the Sigourney Weaver movies, The Brood. During the Brood storyline, Charles Xavier is given a new clone body by the Shi'Ar and is once again able to walk.

Cyclops meets and falls in love with a human woman named Madelyne Pryor, who bears an uncanny resemblence to Jean Grey. Everyone who meets Madelyne remarks on the amazing resemblence, and very few people trust her completely. Cyclops himself isn't 100% certain about it - he is suspicious about the fact that he cannot find any trace of Madelyne's existence prior to her being the sole survivor of an airplane crash on the day that Jean Grey died on the moon. Nevertheless, Scott and Madelyne eventually marry one another despite the machinations of Mastermind, who tries to convince Madelyne that she is the second coming of Dark Phoenix.

During the Smith run, we also meet the Morlocks, a community of hideously deformed mutants living in the tunnels below Manhattan. They come into conflict with the X-Men a few times over, but they are not villains. Storm wins leadership of the Morlocks from the Morlock leader Callisto, who becomes a reluctant ally of the group.

Rogue joins the group, and then the X-Men head off to Japan. Wolverine is about to wed a Japanese woman named Mariko, but it doesn't happen. While in Japan, Storm (who has slowly been changing, becoming more reckless, violent, and more in touch with her street-thief roots) changes her look radically - she becomes a mohawked street punk.

....I'll come back and carry on with this in a little bit. I need to take a breather!
 
 
Optimistic
18:17 / 06.05.03
Carlos Pacheco is my favourite X-Men penciller, I think he's as good as Quitely. His drawings have so much energy and emotion. Something I love about both artists is that they never cut any corners, everything is fully realised and perfectly drawn. A lot of poorer pencillers seem to have a stock of images that they repeat, they have about four or five hands they can draw, they can draw faces from three angles etc.

And a Seth Fisher drawn Morrison project would be incredible, he's exclusive (I think) to DC but that doesn't rule out a vertigo project. Did anyone else read the two Doom Patrol issues he drew recently? Absolutely Brilliant!
 
 
Quimper
18:24 / 06.05.03
Flux, when did Smith draw the book? Which book?

I'd have to recognize Seinkewicz's New Mutants. He's the master at making exaggeration believable. Plus it always looks like someone bled all over his pages.

But there's a special place in my heart for Silvestri's Outback pages. The man was so adept at capturing the sweltering desert heat and freezing nights in which the team survived. His women were pure sex and his men who realistically carved out of marble. This run probably had the most emotion attached to it as far as the trials and drama and "we're such a family" moments in every issue. His facial expressions were always on one end of the spectrum, never mediocre or ineffective.

The X-Men became The Uncanny X-Men in the 60s or 70s. Around the Mutant Massacre in the late 80s, Nightcrawler, Kitty and Rachel Summers all left the team due to issues and injuries. In the Fall of the Mutants, the remaining X-Men seemingly died in Dallas. So the three members listed above formed Excalibur, the Euro X-Men, in their stead. The Original Five reunited with the "dead" X-Men in Inferno once they felt lonely in their own book, X-Factor. Soon, after the Muir Island Saga, the Original Five would return to the fold (as would Jim Lee) and X-Factor became a different team sponsored by the government. Here, Xavier formed the Blue and Gold Teams. The Blue Team was led by Cyclops and featured the more marketable characters of Wolverine, Rogue, Gambit, Beast and Psylocke (with Jubilee for good measure). The Gold Team was Storm's team and featured Jean Grey, Archangel, Iceman, the newbie Bishop and soon Colossus. Well, the stringent separation didn't last too long and then we were stuck with Uncanny X-Men, X-Men, X-Factor and Excalibur. The first two having no definition and the last two soon to be cancelled. After some crap stories, Storm took some team members away from the mansion to look for Destiny's Diaries, thus X-Treme X-Men was born. The real story with X-Treme X-Men is that Claremont's second coming failed, so he was given his own book to play with. Uncanny X-Men remained just that. X-Men was given to Grant Morrison, who renamed it New X-men because he came up with a funky logo.

Wait, did that question even need answering or did I just manifest the geek raptor?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:22 / 06.05.03
Alright. This is where things start getting more complicated.

During the Brood storyline, Charles Xavier believes the X-Men to be dead, and takes in a new group of teenaged students who are called The New Mutants. They get their own series, and live in the mansion with the X-Men. The cast of the New Mutants during its first few years include Cannonball, Mirage, Wolfsbane, Sunspot, Cypher, Karma, Magma, Colossus's sister Illyana (aka Magik) and the alien robot Warlock. I'll gloss over the events of their series as I go along with the X-Men chronology.

After Paul Smith leaves, John Romita Jr. takes over as the artist on The Uncanny X-Men. The focus of the series during the Romita years is increasingly "street level" and dark. During the beginning of Romita's run we get a mixed bag of adventures which range from stories featuring Mystique's Brotherhood to a Doctor Doom storyline to this crazy story about an ancient magical villain who remakes the world. Nothing too special at first, but things do start to get interesting when Rachel Summers pops up in regular X-Men contuinity. She joins the X-Men as a junior member, but keeps her identity a secret from Cyclops and Madelyne, who is pregnant with Scott's child. Rachel Summers is a very angsty character, and is very selfdestructive. She eventually is nearly killed by Wolverine and disappears.

Magneto is tried by an international tribunal, and Charles Xavier is hurt and sent off into space to live with Lilandra and the Shi'Ar. He decides to make the reformed Magneto the new headmaster of the Xavier School, which no one is very happy with.

Scott and Madelyne have their child, Nathan Christopher Summers. Within a year, Scott finds out that Jean did not die on the moon (she is found in a cocoon beneath Jamaica Bay by the Fantastic Four), and abandons his wife and child to form a new group called X-Factor with Iceman, Angel, and Beast. The original premise of the X-Factor series was convoluted and mis-guided - the original X-Men were pretending to be a group of mutant hunters, but were actually seeking out mutants and taking them in to be trained.

And then everything changes...

During the final story of the Romita Jr era, a group of vicious mutant assassins called the Marauders appear in the Morlock tunnels and mercilessly wipe out nearly every mutant in their path. The X-Men attempt to stop them, but Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Kitty Pryde are severely wounded in the battle. X-Factor also encounters the Marauders while investigating the attacks, and Angel is wounded so badly that his wings must be amputated. Magneto decides to join the Hellfire Club, and the British telepath Psylocke joins the X-Men.

Over the next year (during which Marc Silvestri takes over the art on The Uncanny X-Men), the X-Men search for the Marauders and pick up some new members to replace those who were hurt during the Massacre. Havok, Dazzler, and a character named Longshot join the group. We find out that the Marauders were working for a mysterious villain named Mr. Sinister (aka Nathaniel Essex), but we still don't know why.

Eventually, the X-Men (at this point: Storm, Wolverine, a recovered Colossus, Rogue, Havok, Psylocke, Dazzler, and Longshot, along with Madelyne Pryor) sacrifice their lives to save the world in Dallas, but are brought back to life by the mystical being Roma. The X-Men decide that it is for the best to let the world believe them to be dead, and relocate to an abandoned town in Australia. During the Australian period, the X-Men visit an island off the coast of Africa called Genosha ("A green and pleasant land...", says the travel brochures), which unknown to the rest of the world is enslaving mutants and benefiting from their labor. The X-Men liberate Genosha.

Around this time, Nightcrawler, Kitty Pryde, and Rachel Summers start a new British version of the X-Men called Excalibur with Captain Britain and his girlfiend Meggan. You don't need to know much about Excalibur, really. Almost nothing of consequence occurs during the entire run of the series, except for when Rachel Summers leaves the group and goes back to the future.

Meanwhile, Madelyne Pryor is changing. She is slowly developing psychic abilities, and strikes an alliance with demons. Yes, demons. Demons who have some kind of aliance with Mr. Sinister. This all leads up to a big crossover event called Inferno about which I honestly cannot recall all of the details. It's sooooo convoluted and difficult, it is exactly the kind of thing that people are talking about when they put down late-80s X-Men comics.

Anyway, Madelyne becomes the "Goblin Queen" and tries to get her child back from Cyclops and Jean Grey. In the process, she and the demons corrupt the X-Men, turn Manhattan into a demonic nightmare landscape, and X-Factor and the X-Men are reunited. X-Factor believed the X-Men to be dead, and the X-Men thought that Jean was dead, if you've been keeping track. Madelyne dies at the end of the story, and things kinda go back to normal for a brief period of time.

The most important thing about the Inferno story is the revelation that Madelyne Pryor is indeed the clone of Jean Grey, created by Mr. Sinister, who has a scientific interest in the offspring of Jean Grey and Scott Summers, and created her in hopes that Scott would sire a son by her. We learn later on that Mr. Sinister has a history working for Apocalypse, and that Sinister had the Morlocks killed because they were mostly the failed results of his scientific experimentations with mutation.

After the X-Men return to Australia, they slowly fall apart but not before meeting the obnoxious teenage mutant Jubilee. Longshot leaves the group to find himself, Storm appears to be murdered, Wolverine runs off, and the rest of the group are sent off through this mystical device given to them by Roma, the Siege Perilous. The Siege Perilous transports the X-Men to different places on earth with no memory of who they are, and often transforming them.

This next period of the X-Men is a really shitty time for the series - it mostly involves Banshee and Forge (a mutant who can invent anything who we met back during the Romita period) searching for the missing X-Men while Wolverine and Jubilee have some small adventures. Wolverine and Jubilee find Psylocke, but she has somehow come to possess the body of an Asian ninja woman. Yeah. It's pretty dumb, but Psylocke gets waaaay more confusing later on.

Rogue turns up in the Savage Land, and begins a romance with Magneto. Now, if you're ever confused as to why Rogue can fly and has super strength in the comics, it's because she stole those powers from a superhero named Carol Danvers, along with significant chunks of her personality. When Rogue was sent through the Siege Perilous, Danvers was cast out of her mind, but Rogue somehow retains those superpowers, which is unfortunate, I really think Rogue is better off conceptually with only the absorption powers.

As for the rest of the group, Colossus pops up as an artist in Manhattan, and Dazzler ends up in Hollywood or something like that.

Around this time, after a long period of fill-in artists, Jim Lee takes over as regular artist on The Uncanny X-Men. As it turns out, Storm has been reverted to a child state by two villains called (I kid you not) Nanny and The Orphan-Maker. She meets up with the Cajun mutant Gambit. One thing leads to another, and a new group of X-Men is formed - child Storm, Wolverine, Jubilee, ninja Psylocke, Gambit, Forge, and Banshee. They go off into space, and are reunited with Charles Xavier.

Meanwhile, artist Rob Liefeld has taken over on New Mutants, and that comic is changed fairly radically with the introduction of the gun-nut soldier from the future, Cable. Cable becomes the New Mutants new mentor, and molds them into a paramilitary strike force.

Over in X-Factor, the group is fighting an incredibly powerful villain named Apocalypse (aka En Sabah Nur). Apocalypse is the man responsible for transforming Angel into Archangel - he turned Angel's skin blue and gave him new living metal wings with razor sharp feathers. Apocalypse captures Cyclops's son Nathan, and in the end of the story, Nathan is infected with techno-virus and sent off into the far future with a red haired woman named Askani. We don't find this out for a while, but when Nathan is in the future, he is raised by the Askani cult (led by Rachel Summers), and becomes Cable. Cable goes back to our time in an attempt to stop Apocalypse.

The next big crossover storyline between the X-Men, X-Factor, and the New Mutants is called The X-Tinction Agenda, in which the X-Men are attacked by the Genoshans and the X-Men once again liberate Genosha.

After this, another storyline reunites the X-Men on Muir Island, Xavier is one again crippled, and X-Factor and the X-Men unite as one large group of X-Men. They fight and defeat Magneto and his Acolytes, and so ends the original Chris Claremont run on the X-Men.

For the next year, Jim Lee and fellow artist Whilce Portacio come up with a series of truly forgettable stories before they leave to form Image Comics with Rob Liefeld, Marc Silvestri, Erik Larson, Jim Valentino, and Todd McFarlane.

The next three years or so are absolutely horrible, and I will write about them a little later on.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:27 / 06.05.03
Paul Smith drew Uncanny X-Men #165-170 and #172-175. He also drew the second-to-last issue of Claremont's original run, but it's not quite as good as his art on the original run.

If y'all don't mind, I'm going to keep sumarizing things in detail up until when Grant Morrison takes over, so I'm going to ask you all to step back until I'm done, so that we can keep confusion to a minimum.
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:28 / 06.05.03
History Continued...

Durring the Byrne era:
Flash back story of Charles first meeting Ororo as a child & his first battle with the Psychic Monster known later as The Shadow King

Banshee looses his powers...

Arcade is introduced...

Magneto fight this team of X-men for the first time. The battle take place in his Antartica Base. The base collapses Jean & Beast are seperated from the reast of the team who is presumed dead. Bummed, Charles goes to live with Lilindra in space, the mansion is mothballed while the rest of the team make their way home via THE SAVAGE LAND, JAPAN and finally make it home in time to run off to Ireland and stop Proteus. Jean & Scott are reunited, Banshee (now Powerless) reveals his love for Moiria and help her rebuild...

Charles will not return to earth until the Dark Phoenix mess...

Cockrum Era v2:
We're also introduced to Illyania Rasputin (Colossus's younder sister) as well at the extra dimensional LIMBO with it's demon lord Balasco. Illyania it trapped in limbo for what seems like a moment to the X-men but turns out to be years in limbo. She's now a teenager & secretly a Demon-sorceress.

Also around this time ROGUE is introduced in Avenger's Annual #10. Avengers vs. The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants...

They Fight Dr. DOOM...
& go back into space to fight the BROOD & flying sharks...

While the X-men where out in Space fighting the Brood... Professor X creates the New Mutants... the first X-men Spin-off comic.
Team is Cannon Ball, Sunspot, Karma, Wolfsbane & Psyche. Later Magma is introduced.

SMITH ERA:
Wolverine & Rogue Bond after a convoluted battle in Japan with Viper & the Silver Samurai.
It turns out Mastermind was behind Mariko's not Marrying Wolverine.



After 175... Smith's last issue John Romatia Jr. take over art...

John Romatia Jr:
Forge is Introduded as the inventor of a ray gun designed to neutralize Mutant power. It's intended for use against Rogue who's new (flash Dance-esque) costume has gotten her in trouble with the government. The Ray intended for Rogue hit storm. Powerless she is taken in by Forge, a romance begings & it is revealed Forge is a Mutant, a Vietnam Vet and a Shaman on the run from his duties.
Classic Life Death storyline illustraited by Barry Windsor-Smith... leads into 2 marvel universe crossovers. Over in Thor Ragnarokk has started and it's winter in July. Meanwhile the Dire-Wraiths... shapeshifting, soul-sucking Aliens from the ROM comics show up and start trouble. The "Adversary" is introduced...

Cyclops & Madyline have a honymoon fighting a giant squid before returning to the mansion. where Cyclops is defeated by an unpowered Storm in a bout for X-leadership.

a special Afpha Flight/X-men series penciled by Paul Smith comes out. Loki is offered ultimate power if he does a favor for humanity. His favor is a magical fountain that appears in the Canadian Tundra. It has the power to give normal humans superpowers. Madelyne & Cyclops' plane crashes during the fountain's appearance she's given super healing powers, His eyebeam issues are cured. X-men & Alpha flight team up to investigate uncovering the dark secret behind the fountain... the "gift" has strings attached... everyone fights Loki who swares revenge!!!

Mystique, Blob, Pyro & Avalance have their sentances commuted and are now hired by the government to become... Freedom Force The official Government Mutant team.
Additional WWII era mutants STONEWALL (big strong immovable), SILVER SABER (Fast guy) & Scarlet something or another (mutant superfighter ala captain America) join the team after Storm breaks up a Sir Miles like Human hunting game.

Professor X begings lectures at N.Y.U. or some other collage.

Old school Conan villian appears & turns Manhattan into a Conan the Barbarian area fantasy world. Avenger, Spiderman & such become his guards in chainmail, swords & everything. Ilyania's sorceress powers are revealed, the X-men somehow stop him and return manhattan to...er normal.

Morlocks return, Kitty is supposed to marry one of them... it's resolved.

Bill Seinkewhat'shisname takes over art for New Mutants:
Illyania is brought into the team (as Magik) after a Mini-series telling of her life in Limbo as a Demon Lolita. WORLOCK is introduced as is Cypher.

By issue 200 magneto has decided to repent his ways and surrenders to the world court for his crimes against humanity.
Fenris a pair of Mutant twins(how many are there?) show up to kill magneto. Revenge for a flashback battle that took place when He & Charles where friends the foe was some leader of Hydra.

Charles is mugged & beaten with bricks to the head. The Shai'r appear to save the criticilly wounded Charles by bringing him into space. Charles gives magneto his school & responsibility over the New Mutants.

X-men are pissed...

Sometime around here Emma Frost pulls a mind switch with Storm.

We get the Secret Wars
Peter breaks up with Kitty...

A (much too long & horribly drawn)Wolverine/Kitty Pryde Miniseries has Kitty brainwashed into a Ninja Assassin. Wolvie saves herbut she retains all her martial training and renames herself ShadowCat.
 
 
gergsnickle
19:35 / 06.05.03
John Byrne is the only x-artist (and plotter too, judging by the radical increase in quality of stories during his tenure [and subsequent drop-off after he left]) for me.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:42 / 06.05.03
Ah, thanks Mr. Tricks. You added in some important things that I glossed over - I feel very silly for forgetting to mention the bit about Storm losing her powers! Aside from that, most of what Mr. Tricks is mentioning are fairly minor details that I've been leaving out to make things seem a little more streamlined.
 
 
Persephone
19:51 / 06.05.03
Flux, I'm picturing you as having a Phoenix manifestation.

Go on!
 
 
abstractgeek
19:55 / 06.05.03
for me it would have to be john byrne. x-men was some of his best art and terry austins inking was incredible. there has rarely been a penciller inker team that worked so well together and still expressed their respective styles. i recently purchased x-men essentials volume 2 and the artwork is even better without the shitty printing that late 70's early 80's comics had. admittedly much of this may be due to the fact that his run was when i started reading comics, but many other artists from that era dont hold up for me now as well as the byrne stuff
 
 
bio k9
20:15 / 06.05.03
The Geeky X-Men Thread

The?

 
 
at the scarwash
20:54 / 06.05.03
Hey grandpa, when do we get to hear about the Age of Apocalypse?
 
 
Optimistic
21:19 / 06.05.03
He'll get to it testpattern, it isn't too far along now, but first he'll tell the wonderful story about Fabian Nicieza and Psylocke. There are reasons why he called the next three years horrible.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:19 / 06.05.03
I'm going to gloss over most of the X Dark Ages if no one minds. To get a complete run through each issue of the worst period of the X-Men, you can read The X-Axis's Uncanny X-Men index. It is only an index of the Uncanny title, but for most of the 90s X-Men and Uncanny X-Men were in a state of near constant crossover, so you do get a sense for what was happening in X-Men.

Where I left off, I did not mention what was happening in the other X-comics. As someone else says, X-Factor becomes another thing altogether, a government organized mutant group featuring Havok, Polaris, Quicksilver, Multiple Man, and some other characters. Nothing in the entire run of X-Factor from here on out til the end of the series is of any particular importance.

New Mutants is cancelled and becomes X-Force. It's still more or less the same cast as Liefeld's New Mutants, but some characters leave/die and others join. X-Force is easily the worst X-series from this period, and unless you specifically want to know about Cable and Stryfe and Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister, I'll just skip over X-Force stuff and the X-cutioner's Song storyline. It is both confusing and entirely meaningless, so let's not bother.

Anyway.........let's see. Lots of stupid stories that I can't remember too well and have mostly forced myself to forget. For no apparent reason, the Morlocks return and are killed again by Colossus's thought-to-be-dead brother. Lots of bad shit happens to Colossus - his parents are killed, and later on his sister Illyana is one of the first victims of the Legacy Virus. The Legacy Virus is a clumsy AIDS stand-in - it's just a disease that kills mutants. The Legacy Virus is eventually cured just before Grant Morrison and Joe Casey take over the X-Men, and Colossus sacrifices his life to end the disease. It is an amazingly bad idea, totally implausible, and a waste of a great character.

More later.
 
 
Optimistic
21:46 / 06.05.03
Okay, so he didn't. Anyway, the story goes like this:

Psylocke was the sister of Captain Britain who, in a Cgris Claremont story called "Acts of Vengence" was physically altered by the Hand and trained as one of their assasins. She was now an asian woman with darker hair, and suddenly felt she needed to wear nothing but a leotard...

When Fabian Nicieza came onboard the X-Men he wrote a story which featured the return of the original Psyloke, who had no eyes (something to do with Mojo, is that right?), and some other nonesense involving a third person or mind etc.

Nicieza explained that at some point there had been a body switch because he didn't have the issue where the change in the character's physical appearence happened.

At the time I think the X writers and editors had little idea what they were doing. It seemed as though they had some vague ideas for a possible plot, but a good idea for scene or a line of dialogue which might set it up.

This was the worst phase of the X-Men, truly the Dark Age. Ever other issue featured some kind of story gimick, promised to reveal some long hinted secret.

Look at Gambit, does anyone else remember X-Men 45 which promised to reveal the link between him and Mr Sinister?

Most of the stuff from the time is, as Flux says, utterly pointless and forgettable.
 
 
Optimistic
21:49 / 06.05.03
I have a question:

What was in the vial that Mr Sinister gave Gambit in UXM 350?

I lost interest in the title shortly after Kelly and Seagle left, and never found out.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:21 / 06.05.03
Okay. Let's see.

X-Men writer Fabian Nicieza wastes a lot of time making Psylocke even more pointlessly complicated, but I can barely explain that and it's not very important.

At the start of the post-Claremont era we meet a man named Bishop, who is a crazy cop/soldier from a mutant paramilitary group called the XSE from the future. In Bishop's time, the X-Men were destroyed by one of their own. Bishop suspects Gambit, for good reason. Bishop is extremely violent and self righteous, and the rest of the X-Men are very wary of him. They should be - he's a powerful, musclebound gun nut, and quite possibly a total maniac.

Colossus ends up quitting the X-Men after he loses his family, and he joins up with Magneto. Post-Claremont Magneto is a raving lunatic, and every bit of subtlety and nuance that Claremont had added to the character had been pissed away. Anyway, in a big showdown with the X-Men, Magneto removes the metal from Wolverine's body. As it turns out, Wolverine's claws were part of his skeleton all along, so he now has bone claws. In response, Xavier completely erases Magneto's mind.

The next big thing is something which can be loosely described as a story called Legion Quest. Legion is David Haller, Xavier's bastard son. He is extremely powerful, and very much insane. For some reason, he goes back in time and murders Xavier before he starts up the X-Men, and rapes his own mother while he's at it, I KID YOU NOT.

This leads us into yet another alternate reality - for four months, all of the X-Men comics are temporarily cancelled and replaced with comics taking place in the Age of Apocalypse, a world without Charles Xavier. It's a pretty dire dystopian future - Apocalypse rules the world, Magneto is the leader of the X-Men, good guys are bad guys and bad guys are good guys. It's a world gone maaaaaad! Apocalypse is overthrown by Magneto and the X-Men, and somehow history is rearranged so that everything is back to normal. A few characters from the Age of Apocalypse find their way over to the regular X-Men world, but they aren't very important.

Cannonball from the New Mutants and X-Force graduates to the X-Men, and another mutant who appears to be a young musclebound amnesiac version of Magneto joins the X-Men. His name is Joseph, and he is an example of everything that was wrong with the X-Men in the mid-90s. Scott Lobdell admits that he introduced him to the story without working out his backstory or giving ANY thought to how the character may fit into ongoing plots that he'd already introduced without having any endings in mind.

As time goes on, we find out that somehow when Xavier erased Magneto's mind, some bizarre hybrid of the two was created, the evil being known as Onslaught. Onslaught took over Xavier's body, and he ended up being the X-Traitor that Bishop was talking about for all of that time. Onslaught causes a lot of trouble, but he's eventually stopped. This sets in motion the Operation Zero Tolerance storyline in which the US government brings back the Sentinels, and hunts down the X-Men. Xavier is captured, the mansion is destroyed (Again! I haven't mentioned it every time, but this is at least the third time that the mansion is destroyed.) There are more details to this story, but it isn't necessary to get into them. You get the idea, trust me. Do you really need to know that the head of Operation Zero Tolerance is a pink-skinned guy with glowing eyes that everyone for some reason believe is a human being, and he turns out to be Nimrod (a special super sentinel from Rachel Summers's future) reincarnated after being sent through the Siege Perilous waaaaaaaaaay back when the X-Men were still in Australia? No. Not at all.

Psylocke changes yet again, this time after being wounded by Sabretooth. She somehow develops mystical powers having to do with something called the "Crimson Dawn." She gets a facial tatoo, and can now teleport. Why? No particular reason, really. I think Lobdell was bored and the artist at the time, Joe "Playstation" Madureira just wanted to make her look more like a video game character than she already did. Poor Psylocke. When Claremont finally kills her off in the second issue of X-Treme X-Men, it is definitely something like euthanasia.

Anyway, while this is going on, some other X-Men are out in space, but eventually end up on earth and meet up with Magneto (but they don't know it is Magneto, and besides Joseph is with them and they assume that he's Magneto even though he's much younger and can't remember being Magneto). The disguised Magneto gives Gambit a "trial" and it is revealed that Gambit was working for Mr. Sinister and was involved in the Morlock Massacre. The X-Men kick him out, and the Lobdell/Nicieza era comes to an end.

Steven Seagle takes over Uncanny X-Men with artist Chris Bachalo, and Joe Kelly takes over X-Men with artist Carlos Pacheco. The small handful of Kelly/Pacheco X-Men comics are excellent, but a completely insane editorial staff comandeers the series, and starts dictating the direction of the stories to the writers, even though Seagle and Kelly have spent several months setting up storylines in their respective series which they must now abandon even though they've ALREADY BEGUN.

Anyway, the X-Men at this point are Storm, Wolverine, Scott, Jean, Beast, Archangel (who for no apparent reason has his feather wings again, courtesy of Scott Lobdell), Iceman, Cannonball, Joseph, Rogue and three new characters that Lobdell introduced just before he left - Maggott, Marrow, and Dr. Cecilia Reyes. Marrow is an angry Morlock survivor, Maggott makes little to no sense, and Reyes is a pacifist doctor who didn't even know that she was a mutant until Operation Zero Tolerance outed her. She can project a small force field around her body, and desperately does not want to be around the X-Men, and hates the fact that she is a mutant. She's a pretty interesting character, but she is unfortunately swept under the rug by the moronic editorial staff.

When we talk about the Seagle/Kelly issues, we can only really consider what they were working towards - Seagle was working on reintroducing the Phoenix to Jean Grey and Cyclops was about to come up with his own redefined version of Xavier's dream. Kelly was going to focus his X-Men series on the newer members (Maggott, Marrow, Reyes, Cannonball, Joseph plus Beast in a Prof X role). They stick around for a little while and play along with their editors in the interests of being professional. They are forced to eliminate nearly all of the characters in their casts, bring back Gambit even though it doesn't make any sense, and bring Kitty Pryde, Colossus, and Nightcrawler back into the cast. At least that last thing is a good thing - poor Nightcrawler and Kitty had been wasted over in Excalibur for about a decade. So at this point the X-Men are Storm, Wolverine, Rogue, Kitty, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Gambit and Marrow. Xavier returns to the cast as well.

After Seagle and Kelly finally quit, Alan Davis is brought in to write the two series for a year and illustrate the X-Men series while Adam Kubert draws Uncanny X-Men. During his storylines, Magneto becomes the president of Genosha and declares war on the world. The Joseph thing is finally sorted out, but I can't remember exactly what he was. Joseph dies, so it's not very important.

There's a big Apocalypse storyline that makes good on a stray line of dialogue that was written in the early 80s and analyzed to death by X-Men fanboys. The storyline is called The Twelve, and it is only notable for a) having Apocalypse putting the adamantium on Wolverine's skeleton again b) getting rid of Apocalypse once and for all and c) apparently killing Cyclops, who Apocalypse possesses before being killed. As it turns out, Cyclops survived, but it did his head in and that's where Grant Morrison takes over the character.

Before Cyclops returns, Chris Claremont returns to the X-Men for a year of some of the worst X-Men stories ever written. Somewhere along the line, Claremont lost it. Completely. His writing from the mid 90s til fairly recently is unbearably awful, and there's really nothing like it. It's this special unique kind of bad writing that only Claremont can do. There is almost nothing worth mentioning about Claremont's first year back on the X-Men - Nightcrawler becomes a Catholic priest, Cable joins the X-Men, for some weird reason Gambit and Rogue are leading the teams (even though several characters far more qualified are still in the group - Storm, Jean, Wolverine, Beast, Nightcrawler). A new guy named Thunderbird joins the team (though he has nothing at all whatsoever to do with the Thunderbird from Giant Size X-Men #1), Xavier returns again, Moira McTaggert is killed by Mystique, a new species called The Neo pop up but they are just pointless and confusing. Besides, they are all murdered by Magneto in the last story before Morrison and Casey take over the franchise.

After Claremont is removed from the series and given his own X-Treme X-Men title, Scott Lobdell returns to the X-Men to wrap up some storylines before Grant comes in. During this brief period, Colossus dies as I mentioned earlier, Cyclops returns to the X-Men, Kitty quits the team and goes off to college, and the X-Men battle Magneto in Genosha AGAIN. This story is especially awful given the pacing and the circumstances of Magneto's defeat, but hey, let's not bother with that. The story ends with Wolverine apparently disembowling Magneto, who of course dies again two issues later in E Is For Extinction.

That brings us up to Grant Morrison's New X-Men (which is retitled from just plain X-Men with Grant's first issue), Joe Casey's terrible Uncanny X-Men, and Chris Claremont's messy X-Treme X-Men.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:28 / 06.05.03
Psylocke was the sister of Captain Britain who, in a Cgris Claremont story called "Acts of Vengence" was physically altered by the Hand and trained as one of their assasins. She was now an asian woman with darker hair, and suddenly felt she needed to wear nothing but a leotard...

Yeah. I just want to point out that Acts Of Vengeance was a company-wide Marvel crossover gimmick thing - the premise was that all the big Marvel villains got together and decided that they would try fighting someone other than their archnemesis for a change. I can't remember how it went, but someone other than the Fantastic Four fought Doctor Doom, Magneto fought the Avengers, and The X-Men had a story involving Iron Man's archnemesis The Mandarin. It's a very stupid idea, but probably not Chris Claremont's. If anything, Claremont managed to integrate the concept into his ongoing storyline a lot better than anyone else at the time could.

When Fabian Nicieza came onboard the X-Men he wrote a story which featured the return of the original Psyloke, who had no eyes (something to do with Mojo, is that right?), and some other nonesense involving a third person or mind etc.

Yeah, it is established sometime during the original British Psylocke's time with the X-Men that she has artificial eyes given to her by Mojo, and they were being used as surveillance cameras to spy on the X-Men and the footage was broadcast on Mojo's crazy tv world.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
23:26 / 06.05.03
Where does Generation Next (is that even right or is it Generation X?) fit in to all this? I haven't seen very much of it, but IIRC it's Colossus and Kitty (?) in charge of a new group of mutants including Mondo, Husk (bizarrely with red hair in the tpb I've got) and Chamber. Colossus is looking for Illyana. Humans have been enslaved by some monstrous mutants in a great big mound, and Husk goes in to seduce the head monstrous mutant. There's some gigantic cock-up and some of the mutants get locked in the mound - Colossus tries to hold the doors open but can't. Is this anything to do with the age of apocalypse stuff?
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
00:37 / 07.05.03
"For reasons I am not aware of, Len Wein decides not to continue on with the X-Men after that special, and a young relative newcomer to Marvel named Chris Claremont is assigned to the series."

Marvel was a complete mess, both financially and editorially at this time, and went through a major editorial change between Giant Size X-Men #1 and X-Men 94. In fact, X-Men 94 and 95 were supposed to be Giant Size X-Men #2, but both it and the Invaders were made into regualr sized comics as Marvel shifted into "battle mode" with a new company called Atlas, started by their former owner's son, who felt he should been made the CEO of Marvel. Marvel turned their Giant Size books into reprint volumes, tripled their output by started a ton of reprint series (at one point there were 25 different books reprinting pre-hero monster and horror stories).

Wein, who was a trusted creator, was being pulled more and more into editorial, as well as writing Spider-Man, Thor and a few other books a month (he also was helping Marv Wolfman with editoial on Marvel black and white magazines).

So. Why did the X-Men go to the unproven Chris Claremont? Simple, Marvel had no faith in it. Roy Thomas directed Wein to create the book with an international cast so as to have product aimed at the new international market for Marvel books. It was felt at the time that they could publish it at a loss and make up the cost in Europe and South America. Claremont was given a plot for 94 and 95 where Thunderbird was killed (and Wein said he did it to shock the readers so that they were off-balance. Thunderbird was created to die, since he was pretty much a knockoff of Wolverine) and while he wanted to think of a way to save Thunderbird, the book was so late that he decided to go with the death and hope to bring him back later. That would be a theme that ran through the book, however, and in a lot of ways, made the X-Men the fan favorite it is today.

Wein had planned for Colossus to be the Big Star of the book (which is why his costume was primary colors). Cockrum, however, wanted Nightcrawler to be the star of the book. Claremont was pretty attacked to the old X-Men and kept the focus on Jean and Scott because those were the stories he liked best in the old series. Wolverine would have been written out of the book around issue #112 if not for John Byrne saying he wanted to use the character, as it was the only Canadian in the comic.

As for my favorite artist on the book.

Kirby.

The whole damn thing is still feeding off the remains of Kirby's ten issues.

Anyone want the backstage story of why Phoenix was killed?

And the fact that the X-Men didn't become the #1 selling book at Marvel until Cockrum came back, which John Byrne STILL complains about in interviews to this day?
 
 
makeitbleed
01:38 / 07.05.03
First of all, Flux - thank you. I read all those and still have them and can't even imagine writing it all up so succinctly.

Secondly,
My favorite x-Men artist is Paul Smith. I'm surprised to hear he's someone else's as well because despite all the excellent qualities of his art (described by Flux previously) he's not a superstar like someone like Jim Lee or John Byrne. No idea why.

Aside from being a talented artist, he is an incredibly nice guy. I met him when I was 8 and showed him some artwork I had done especially to show him. Now, the work was good for an eight year old, but it was still pretty poor compared to the art he was used to seeing. It was on typing paper and done with felt-tipped markers. Not my best work. But he looked at me and with a straight face told me it was good.

Only years later did I understand that the look on his face and inflection in his voice indicated he was being polite. But it meant enough to keep me drawing and eventually painting and now I sell my work.

He even gave me some great advice about how to make it in comics. (Didn't pursue that by the way. The work's too intense for me.)

Anyway, here's to Flux, Paul Smith and completely ignoring the Lobdell era. It was painful hoping every month, "maybe this one will be better."
 
 
Brigade du jour
01:53 / 07.05.03
Can I just give a big thanks to Flux for outstanding devotion to the cause of synopsis high above and way beyond the call of duty. Have a biscuit on me, dude.
 
 
LDones
02:38 / 07.05.03
Bravo. I suddenly feel as though I HAVEN'T completely missed out on decades of X-Men stories.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
02:51 / 07.05.03
Astonishing, Flux. Uncanny. Someone come up with a prize for Flux for the Pride of Barbelith thread.

I'm working on my synopsis of Fallen Angels, the X-Factor era 8-issue limited series featuring a runaway Sunspot, Warlock, a bunch of forgettable X-Factor secondaries (I think a couple of them don't even have superpowers) and Bill and Don, two mutant lobsters who speak in pictures. It's the willingness to be completely bizarre for the simple pleasure of it that makes the X-ouvre so strong.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
03:02 / 07.05.03
Where does Generation Next (is that even right or is it Generation X?) fit in to all this? I haven't seen very much of it, but IIRC it's Colossus and Kitty (?) in charge of a new group of mutants including Mondo, Husk (bizarrely with red hair in the tpb I've got) and Chamber.

This is one of the Age Of Apocalypse alternate reality comics. It takes place entirely within the context of the Age of Apocalypse world.

I forgot to even mention Generation X, I'm sorry. Generation X comes in about halfway through the Lobdell era, spinning off from a very forgettable crossover storyline called The Phalanx Convenant. Generation X is nothing more than an updated version of the New Mutants, but with Banshee and Emma Frost as the headmasters of Emma's Massachusetts Academy. Emma's been headmistress there since her introduction back in the Dark Phoenix saga - when we first meet Kitty Pryde, Emma is trying to enroll her. During the original New Mutants run, Emma's students were called the Hellions and were the New Mutants rivals. The Hellions were eventually slaughtered by Sentinels in the story which introduces Bishop in the post-Claremont era.

Nothing very important happens in the entire Generation X series, which is pretty common for X-Men spinoff series in the 90s. Some characters from the series have been popping up in the core X-Men titles in the past two years of Uncanny X-Men where Husk, Chamber, Jubilee, and M have had significant roles.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
03:27 / 07.05.03
I'm glad that I could help. The X-Men thing is very, very complicated and dense, and it definitely helps to have a map. I've been reading/following the X-Men since I was six years old (I started reading during the end of the original Romita Jr run in the mid-80s), and so it's just something that I've known for nearly my whole life. (This was the cover of my first issue, by the way.) I recently re-read the Morlock Massacre issues, and fuck, that was some dark, violent stuff for a kid that young to be reading. Though I don't think I fully understood everything at the time, I definitely was attracted to the bleakness of it all. I was a pessimistic kid, I guess.

As for Paul Smith - I think there were a few strikes against him becoming a big superstar. He only drew Uncanny X-Men for one year, and didn't have another major comics project (aside from some Dr. Strange comics...) for quite a long time, and that was an indie non-superhero project. I'm not really up on Smith, but I think that he spent a lot of his time working on commercial projects and in animation. There are a lot of people out there who are huge fans of his X-Men work, and it isn't uncommon to see his name pop up on lists like these.
 
 
straylight
03:45 / 07.05.03
Damn. I feel very informed now.

And so of course I have questions. Well, one, mainly: are many of the storylines in the cartoon lifted directly from the comics? I know the Dark Phoenix one is (apart from the cop-out at the end when Phoenix destroys an unenhabited planet, which figures for a kids' cartoon but bugs me anyway) but what about the others? The only ones that come to mind are "Night of the Sentinels" which I always managed to see part two of and which I imagine doesn't align with the books as we meet Jubliee in it - in a mall, and the one where there's that...um...names fail me...green lizard guy who is a human who turns lizard-mutant when he drains mutant powers, and he and the...um...weird witch/stone idol worshipping lady make Storm go kind of evil.

Any written precedent, or no?

And is or is not Mastermind Jason Wyngarde and if so then, er, how does Jason in X2 relate to possible movie stories yet to come? (I tried to phrase that without any spoilers, just in case.)

What's the Scarlet Witch's power?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
04:11 / 07.05.03
Scarlet Witch controls probability in really goofy ways, like she makes it increasingly probable that a billboard will suddenly fall on you, until it actually happens. This is one of those silver-age concepts that is kind of brilliant but rarely gets the gonzo treatment it deserves. If I'm remembering correctly, her best scenes are actually with the Avengers.

There are two X-Men cartoons. The first one is terrible cheap drivel with lots of shrieking and garish animation. The second, X-Men Generations, I believe, is actually pretty good. I think it's on the Cartoon Network now. Neither one follows the comics continuity, which I think is completely appropriate. They mix the characters and events around to suit their own purposes.

Further asides on Paul Smith: his indie project (I should say "an indie project of his," since he could have others I'm not aware of... and it's an Image book. Is Image still "indie"?) was called Leave It To Chance, written by James Robinson, who describes it as "Nancy Drew meets Kolchak the Night Stalker." Rather Buffiesque, and if you're just interested in Smith's art it's definitely worth 15 bucks for the luscious Image hardcover (Flux, it might even be on sale at Jim Hanley's). The art is true blue. The writing left me a little cold, though I guess it's successful in what it sets out to do. It's fun and fluffy and has a great concept with some cool bits.

Anyway, here's what Smith says in connection with leaving Marvel (one presumes):

"I fell out of comics a few years ago. It wasn't until I'd figured out why, that I could come back. I'd stopped believing. Not in comics per se but, in what they'd become. Dark, misogynist, convoluted... mean. No more heroes. No more fun. ... Thinking, "If you want something done...", I set about reworking the story of a young dragon and his little girl that I'd started before my comics days. It's where Lockheed came from, for those of you who remember him."

And then some other stuff. Smith seems to have a little problem with commas.
 
 
videodrome
04:40 / 07.05.03
Flux, next time you're in Manhattan, stop by the Marvel offices to pick up your No-Prize.
 
 
Hieronymus
05:01 / 07.05.03
Yeah, Flux. Mad props and applause to you, man. You made me misty-eyed with nostalgia for the Claremont days when I first read X-Men (the Australia stuff was always my favorite) and glad to know I didn't miss anything by skipping the 90's claptrap.
 
 
DaveBCooper
09:57 / 07.05.03
Flux, you’ve put a lot of work into what is a very readable summary of years and years and pages and pages there. Thanks.
Can I just ask you – you (rightly, I’m sure) say certain storylines and the like were irrelevant overall – did you have any kind of feeling that that was the case when you were reading them ? Just wondering how you felt about them at the time, as it were – you talk about the series generally with obvious affection.
And whilst I probably should check out other threads to see this, am I right in thinking you’re currently happy with the way the X-Books are being handled ?
Just being nosey, so feel free to tell me to shaddap.
 
  

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