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Whoever it was that said that the barbelith could use some speed injected into the pacing....

 
  

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The Return Of Rothkoid
03:11 / 19.04.03
Elijah, your everything-on-Barbelith forgot just one thing. You forgot what the world needs now.



Oh, and you forgot to mention piracy, too. Arr.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
06:16 / 19.04.03
I don't think there really is a clique, mainly because that term has become so loaded with negative terms, but also because there's a Venn diagram going on with an overlap between people that post a lot and people that live in certain geographical areas so can get together easily, so there is a group that has certain clique-like characteristics, which contains people like me, Haus, Flyboy, Anna... but this group has ever changing boundaries and doesn't really achieve much except allowing people to have arguments which everyone else only finds out about when it spills over onto an argument here.

I find it ironic that I'm now lurking more in The Magick than I am reading in the Head Shop. I know that Haus is doing his best to try and keep that alive but for me it's that current events have resulted in the Switchboard being busier, but also the cultural studies ethic that people like Bengali in Platforms and Haus use, which is a turn off. Almost always as soon as someone like them posts in a thread it has immediately been elevated out of my reach and, fuck it, I'm not going back to university for three/four years just so I can take part in a little forum on a board somewhere!
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
06:24 / 19.04.03
Anyway, let me get my wok out and then someone can ask, is Barbelith frying?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:37 / 19.04.03
Re: the elitism/cliquism debate. I think one of the reasons this keeps coming up is that there are certain arguments that have never been resolved, and never will be because of the investment that certain people on both sides have in the issue - eg, "political correctness", hate speech v. freedom of speech, etc. What seems to happen after such an argument has been thrashed to death in a thread or two, is that people on one side of the debate decide that the people on the other side are unfairly and inaccurately presenting their opinion as being the default one on Barbelith (by virtue of having been here for longer, or being more prolific posters, or Moderators, or whatever). These people, it is decided, are in a ruling elite.

This line of thinking doesn't really stand up to analysis, but it is a pattern that's reasonably easy to identify.
 
 
The Falcon
13:04 / 19.04.03
I don't think there's any ruling elite. Just general consensus, which some posters take it upon themselves to enforce. How that consensus forms is another matter entirely.

JF: if you're inappropriately socialized, you won't be welcome? You think? My idea of being 'appropriately socialised' may differ somewhat from yours, then. Is this a class thing?

Oh, you can use 'high-mindedness' as a synonym for 'elitism'. Perhaps that clarifies.

Look - I enjoy this board, for the most part. I think it's incredibly interesting, therapeutic, fun, etc. When I enjoy things, I'd like other people, specifically my friends (real or potential) to enjoy them too. This, on the whole, doesn't seem to be happening - because of certain predominant attitudes, among which is a certain smug superiority.

It's a messageboard, yeah? A good one, but surely the point is communicating, not showboating. If that means talking down to the level of (us?) peons, well, it's not that difficult. [Insert W.B. Yeats quote]
 
 
Jack Fear
13:36 / 19.04.03
My idea of being 'appropriately socialised' may differ somewhat from yours, then. Is this a class thing?

I doubt it. By that phrase (and I apologize for using a term which was not clearly defined in context) I meant "cognizant of generally appropriate social codes of behavior."

For instance: it's generally inappropriate, in social settings, to attempt to completely dominate a conversation, or to lead off a conversation with a twenty-minute oration, or to engage in personal abuse, or come into a roomful of strangers and right off the bat tell them how useless and hypocritical you think they are—or even to tell off-color jokes in mixed company, or to assume intimacy with people you do not know well, or to talk disparagingly of religion, politics, or, yes, social class.

Or, for that matter, to stalk people, or to perform home lobotomies on strangers, or to kill and cannibalize.

These distinctions, I think, hold true across class lines: good manners are golden whether in the drawing room or daaaahn the pub.

Every parent knows that children crave attention, and most children eventually learn to distinguish between appropriate and inappropriate ways of seeking and holding attention—e.g., empathy, courtesy, wit vs. screaming, bullying, shit-flinging—and between desirable and undesirable types of attention—e.g., affection vs. approbation.

When a child or adult person is inappropriately socialized, s/he may not recognize commonly-recognized inappropriate social behavior in hirself or in others, or be able to distinguish between (again, commonly-recognized) appropriate and inappropriate attention,

Does that clarify things? I admit there's some wiggle room for what constitutes "appropriate" in a particular environment, but it seems to me that appropriate speech is the real issue here, not "free speech" per se.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:45 / 19.04.03
On the opposite side to Crimes we have another new member who started a questionable jokes forum which other members complained about and ze took the complaints without bitterness and asked for the thread to be deleted. Which it now is. A victory for common sense I feel.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:59 / 19.04.03
Flowers- Thank you- I was about to post the same thing. That's how this shit's supposed to work, and I for one am glad to see it do so. I don't think the poster in question had judged the initial post well (to put it mildly) but the fact that SHe, when confronted, DIDN'T react by calling everyone wankers or the like, raises HIr in my estimation, at least.
 
 
The Falcon
15:16 / 19.04.03
Does that clarify things? I admit there's some wiggle room for what constitutes "appropriate" in a particular environment, but it seems to me that appropriate speech is the real issue here, not "free speech" per se.

Absolutely right, Jack. I couldn't agree more. However, if one has, for whatever reason, behaved inappropriately, this can normally be redeemed. Ever initially disliked someone, only to change your mind? I have. And, while I can't really defend Crimes' actions here, he'd earned a few points in my book elsewhere; enough to forgive the misbehaviour of someone fairly heavily under fire.

Incidentally, to clarify (if necessary,) I've not called anyone a wanker, but accused them of wankery, which is quite different. And the backslapping that followed Crimes' exit was hardly, to these eyes, a pretty sight.
 
 
Hugh_DeMann
15:27 / 19.04.03
olulabelle says: I have found that being able to feel part of the board here has enriched my life a great deal,
hmmm... what does that mean we all wonder?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:48 / 19.04.03
I've not called anyone a wanker, but accused them of wankery, which is quite different.

Sorry, Duncan. I didn't actually have you in mind, I just used "calling everyone wankers" as a general example of a bad thing to do. No personal offence meant.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:02 / 19.04.03
Duncan: [I]f one has, for whatever reason, behaved inappropriately, this can normally be redeemed. Ever initially disliked someone, only to change your mind? I have.

Yes and yes. I am a firm believer in giving people time and room to sort themselves out—explain themselves firmer, take the opportunity to clear up any misunderstandings. I'd venture to say Haus is, too: he very rarely attacks unprovoked—or without at least a warning shot of the Ah-but-how-do-you-account-for-this variety (indeed, to be fair, Haus is probably more patient than I, in this regard).

But if the person in question only digs in further—if, for instance, instead of explaining hir position in any substntive manner, s/he simply takes vague or specific shots at those who dare to disagree with hir, or at the board itself—it only serves to reinforce the initial negative impression, rather than dispell it.

[W]hile I can't really defend Crimes' actions here, he'd earned a few points in my book elsewhere; enough to forgive the misbehaviour of someone fairly heavily under fire.

Maybe so, maybe no; I'll have to take your word for it. While Crimes had proved faintly amusing—in an attitude-laden trendy nihilistic Look-how-shocking-I-can-be kind of way—I personally had not seen from him a great capacity for sustained systematic thought. Maybe I was looking in the wrong places; I don't read every thread here.

And again, when attacked, Crimes did not evidence the qualities that had earned him whatever goodwill he'd earned: he got nasty, he got personal, he evaded, he distorted, and finally he played the victim card. When he called me a bully for pointing out (helpfully, I thought) the rather obvious fact that he'd just made a post that didn't make a goddam lick of sense, he lost my sympathy.

However, that said
[T]he backslapping that followed Crimes' exit was hardly, to these eyes, a pretty sight.

Nor to these eyes. While we may be well shot of him, triumphalism is uncalled for.
 
 
Char Aina
18:38 / 19.04.03
All the same, I don't equate bad spelling and poor grammar with being stupid, just the same as I don't assume that posts which contain little (if any) capitalisation are not worth reading.


[breathes melodramatic and exceptionally unconvincing sigh of relief]




i would say, in resonse to this;

I'd venture to say Haus is, too: he very rarely attacks unprovoked—or without at least a warning shot of the Ah-but-how-do-you-account-for-this variety

that often the warnings seem also to contain just enough of a dig to make anyone who is not as 'appropriate' in their responses, or intelligent enough to run with some of his points feel small. very small.

when made to feel small, most people react badly.
 
 
Char Aina
18:45 / 19.04.03
i would aslo venture that losing another member who had come here not knowing the sites background, we have lost a valuable asset.


we need to spread the word, dont you think?



i personally think i was in a very similar situation, and only because i was aware of the potential here and dont like my movements being compelled did i stay.(similar except that i read the invisibles)

and now, well now i just avoid the headshop, as i dropped out of philosophy and like looking at the pictures in books.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:46 / 21.04.03
Look - I enjoy this board, for the most part. I think it's incredibly interesting, therapeutic, fun, etc. When I enjoy things, I'd like other people, specifically my friends (real or potential) to enjoy them too. This, on the whole, doesn't seem to be happening - because of certain predominant attitudes, among which is a certain smug superiority.

I think this probably covers off the problem Duncan is having. He likes Barbelith, except for the bits that he doesn't like, and the bits that he doesn't like are bits that his friends don't like either, so we should change them so that his friends can enjoy Barbelith as well.

Personally, I'd suggest that labelling as undesirable anything that might stop more people like oneself joining Barbelith is comically smug and astonishingly superior, but I already get that Duncan, for all his many good points, does not have much of a toolkit for analysing his own attitudes. That's basically cool, but I'd rather not be the fall guy for his lack of self-awareness.

I'm noting here that, leaving aside for a moment the questions of "clique" (and I would agree with Fridge that clique depends on having power - there are certainly people on Barbelith I like going for a pint with, but I wouldn't feel obliged to follow their advice on how to moderate the Head Shop), the same couple of people are basically raising the same complaints, which makes it difficult to work out whether the board has already processed the objections or whether this is just an attempt to win by attrition.

Speaking of which - It's already become clear that Duncan did not read or understand my post on how moderation worls and why, but it looks like Crimes of Fashion's thread on the Hacker Manifesto has not been deleted, thanks to the wonders of distributed moderation, and may yet with the help of Mister Disco evolve into something vaguely interesting. If the clique could not pull together three votes for a thread deletion, including the arch-clique administrators Grant and "Mr. PC" Ganesh, then clearly it's a bit of a shit clique. See under "the joy of distributed moderation".

Still, I am kind of resigned to the fact that Duncan, Lupus, Toksik et al are going to divert an awful lot of time and attention into complaining about either their treatment or, more ambitiously, the way people on Barbelith think, far more in fact than they seem to be able to channel into actually adding anything of value to Barbelith. That's unfortunate but borne out by history, and the misfortune is that any valid points they may raise will probably be written off as lost in the wave of carping, and any support likewise seen only as the usual alliances. Hey ho. In fact, by endlessly backing each other up over a series of claims for which they never seem willing or able to substantiate, it strikes me that some of our more lacrimose members are something of a clique in themselves.

However, a serious point has been raised here, which is dyslexia. If Duncan will forgive me for referring to past events on Barbelith, which is apparently on the Big List of Things King Duncan Feels Are Not Desirable in Duncalith, the one time somebody did take the piss out of somebody's spelling, not knowing that they were dyslexic, they were promptly and rather brusquely set right. Isn't Political Correctness a wonderful thing? Personally, I'll correct spelling is the word being misspelled is a technical or philosophical term, or the name of an author, since the misspelling would make it harder for people to track down more information. I might correct spelling if somebody is being rude and insulting, as a reminder that everyone has weak points and thus flaming is not a great idea. Where somebody's spelling or language usage is so garbled that it makes their writing incomprehensible I will ask for clarification. That pretty much covers it, and I've seen about the same approach applied by moderators throughout Barbelith.

So, if Lupus' friend feels able to cope with that without losing it, getting abusive, storming off and devoting the rest of their Barbelife to whining about it, they are of course more than welcome. Assuming, that is, that Lupus has not just made them up, as seems reasonably likely, in order to continue to prosecute a grievance against the Head Shop the origins of which I cannot even recall, but which no doubt follows the same "They dared to disagree with me! The bitches!" pattern that we have come to know and love so well.
 
 
Char Aina
13:01 / 21.04.03
Still, I am kind of resigned to the fact that Duncan, Lupus, Toksik et al are going to divert an awful lot of time and attention into complaining about either their treatment or, more ambitiously, the way people on Barbelith think,

i was not complaining, i was putting forward my opinion on what was being discussed.

change you r ways to suit me, dont change your ways to suit me... i dont really mind. obviously i am still here. i CAN see how there are those who might not stick with barbelith, and i would like for some of them to stay. i can also see how there are those who would hate a board i deemed perfect, and who stay because the 'lith is as it is.



far more in fact than they seem to be able to channel into actually adding anything of value to Barbelith.



thank you.





In fact, by endlessly backing each other up over a series of claims for which they never seem willing or able to substantiate, it strikes me that some of our more lacrimose members are something of a clique in themselves.




its not endless agreement. it'll not be because i like the fictionsuit that i agree, it'll be because i like their point.

but hell.
put me in whatever clique makes you happy.
 
 
The Falcon
13:40 / 21.04.03
You make some fair points, Haus. Unfortunately, by choice or not, you are something of a figurehead here, with a large presence, and I'm more inclined to direct animosity with 'the board' at yourself, perhaps unfairly.

My friends are not necessarily particularly like me, or I like them, you know. In your quotation, note the use of the word 'potential', too, which is what I'm really driving at. And, hey!, I disagree with my friends a lot, anyway, so I don't think that's it. I've used a little supposition in accordance with the hard facts clearly available on the member list. If you disagree with that particular supposition, then you're welcome to explain why. I really don't think I've centred this discussion around myself, and that certainly wasn't the intent, though, naturally, what I have to say is informed by my experiences here, and I have phases of frustration, one of which was brought on by the gloating here.

I understand distributed moderation perfectly, btw.

And I'd like to apologise for my previous comments about the Head Shop, as I spent some time last night perusing two or three threads, all of which were quite fascinating, though one used some Mathematical terminology I'm not particularly au fait with. I am able to look this up, though.

losing it, getting abusive, storming off and devoting the rest of their Barbelife to whining about it I don't really think I do this, either, because only two people 'called' me on my supposed misdemeanour, and they were roughly as useful as turds in my drink to me before doing so. So I don't like them, but they're not you, Haus, or Ganesh, or grant. I even barbiecrushed grant, so... I've written over a thousand posts, you know, and I'd estimate about 20-30 or so were complaining about my own or others' treatment. I don't like complaining at all.

As Kelley Deal might say, before imbibing some hard drugs, "I just wanna get along". And I'd like this place to be a giant, happy, friendly clique. Perhaps that's not possible?
 
 
Quantum
09:56 / 04.11.03
Yay! A real live tiger! *bump*
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:05 / 04.11.03
Erk. Could we not have left this in the archives, I hate reading posts wot I wrote months ago. And I say, shouldn't someone adapt the summary so that real live tiger is in there?
 
 
_Boboss
13:28 / 04.11.03
there is a load of smug fuckos here but, and they chase people off. only ten% of the blith's registered types ever post here, and new members hardly have membership made easy, so anything that discourages boisterous new folk from enjoying the party is unwelcome i reckon.

plus none of them ever the balls to hold their hands up and admit'i love being smug facetious and negative me, and won't quit even when it makes the blith an emptier place' why don't they get over themselves and try to be nice? shurly they're shuitably shoshalished: who doesn't hear Comic-Book Guy's voice when they read ****'s posts?
 
 
_Boboss
14:46 / 04.11.03
ramble ramble

o course, there's the non-toxic cliques to think of too, the thelemen and qobblers in the Magick, hermes, chris23, cusm, lep and that who just spend their time being nice and encouraging each other in their work.

and there's me, the runqpig, boboss, celebrity, fraely and occasionally even sauron who all live within twenty mins stroll of each other [alright not sauron but his sister does], all knew each other irl before we met here and all regularly socialise outside the computer-room. that said far as i'm aware we don't follow each other round the board, encourage each others' useless in-jokes, back each other up when some twat's having a pointless pop, talk down to folk [well...], gang up when someone else says something we don't agree with, or any o' that really. so you can have a clique, but it doesn't have to make you a prique.

obviously we're the best. duncan f and yawn the mono-clique are the best too

and that's who i like mostly.

met flybers the other month, lovely chap in the flesh, never messaged him to say what a pleasure it was actually, sorry bout that sun if you're there.

and bip, always a pleasure, but i knew her online [dig] before real-life too so she doesn't count

oh and memebuggerer too, he seemed real nice. actually, i bet pretty much all of you would be.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:55 / 04.11.03
Oh, shut up you Brightoner. You've got queer taste in shoes. And by queer I mean odd. Bloody coastal freaks coming in here and thinking they run the place.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:58 / 04.11.03
I think I might lock this thread for the sake of posterity, unless someone can persuade me in a rhyme using the word 'albatross' not to...
 
 
William Sack
17:09 / 04.11.03
Whether it's locked or nay, I couldn't give a toss,
 
 
The Falcon
17:17 / 04.11.03
This thread remains an albatross
'Pon the neck of this fine board
A potential 'lither left'n'lost
Instead of facing typists swords

Everything CharlemagneXIVtryst has said was fairly accurate, but I haven't seen any 'bad Barbelith' behaviour like the above for some time. Except when the Knodge came back, and everyone recognised him except me. And we had a minor redux there.

But, mostly, happy 'lith. For ages.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:34 / 04.11.03
I'm not sure there's much of a negative message here. Tell people that they are all fat and ugly, and that you have a real live girlfriend and went to see a REAL! LIVE! TIGER! and people will think you're an idiot. Normally I'd assume that if you weren't bright enough to work that out you wouldn't be able to figure out how keyboards work, but as usual technology is easier to master than basic social skills.
 
 
_Boboss
08:08 / 05.11.03
oop, i forgot sleaze on my list of real livers and true troopers. good old sleaze, the blith one is most likely to bump into at bristol
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:25 / 05.11.03
and there's me, the runqpig, boboss, celebrity, fraely and occasionally even sauron who all live within twenty mins stroll of each other [alright not sauron but his sister does], all knew each other irl before we met here and all regularly socialise outside the computer-room. that said far as i'm aware we don't follow each other round the board, encourage each others' useless in-jokes, back each other up when some twat's having a pointless pop, talk down to folk [well...], gang up when someone else says something we don't agree with, or any o' that really. so you can have a clique, but it doesn't have to make you a prique.

Khaologan, it was lovely to meet you in the flesh too, but c'mon - I've seen you guys do ALL these things at some point or another. Not that I mind, 'cos with the exception of talking down to people (which funily enough is the one that I DON'T think ya do much) I don't think any of them are particularly bad or avoidable things to do, but I think it's a bit short-sighted to say "these are terrible things these other groups of friends do: my group of friends never does them, or when we do it's okay", which is what that '[well...]' seems to be hinting. No one sets out to be nasty, everyone always thinks "ha, xxx will laugh at this" or "hmmm, xxx didn't deserve that, I will back them up", and y'know, fair enough, surely?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:42 / 05.11.03
[channeling the bbc] Hey, someone named their clique! BURN THEM ALL! [/channeling the bbc]
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:31 / 09.11.03
that said far as i'm aware we don't follow each other round the board, encourage each others' useless in-jokes, back each other up when some twat's having a pointless pop, talk down to folk [well...], gang up when someone else says something we don't agree with, or any o' that really.

It seems, then, that we were all hallucinating dryinsidegate, or this little beauty.

No offence, kidder, I love you lots, but you guys are more prone to treating Barbelith as your living room than any other group I can think of.
 
  

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