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Whoever it was that said that the barbelith could use some speed injected into the pacing....

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20:12 / 16.04.03

ZING!

yeah, but sometimes i'm not an illiterate ho-hating, fag-bashing darkie hunter...

sometimes i just want to be friends...

03:42 / 17.04.03

07:56 / 17.04.03

Gaylord, Doomlord, which is more offensive?

17:04 / 17.04.03

i wanted to be doomlord when i was a kid; never wanted to be a gaylord.

just saying, is all. i mean, i've pretended to be both, on several occasions, i just prefer the ring of a doomlord.

17:50 / 17.04.03

*spits drink over keyboard*

bwaaah-hahahaha!... oh stop!

22:05 / 17.04.03

"i just prefer the ring of a doomlord."

Oh precious--my precious!

14:34 / 18.04.03

I really don't care about Head Shop; it doesn't serve any discernible purpose to my eyes. I choos to make my 'contribution', such as it is, elsewhere.

Put simply, check the member list under posts and you'll see very few people, myself excluded, who joined after 2001 have accrued any large number. That suggests a closed shop and stagnation, I think.

Referring to old events at the mb is a particular Haus-trick, which engenders exclusivity, not inclusivity, right? Also, me = not afraid of PC - your word Haus, not mine - matelots (?!), but irritated by wankery.

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:48 / 18.04.03

Tristy me, Duncan, your lack of involvement in the Head Shop is one of the things that has me weeping tears of blood every night.

So, does Doomlord Falconer have a case? Is Barbelith dying?

18:00 / 18.04.03

Could somebody do us all a favour and just cut and paste the time-honoured answers to that? Thank you.

23:46 / 18.04.03

This really isn't about grinding axes, as far as I'm concerned. There's a great deal to like here, both in people and topics of discussion. Yet, as I've said above, very few people appear to have joined and made a noteable contribution in the last year and a half.

I've personally encouraged a few people to join, but they've been put off by the elitist nature of a number of people here (their words, not mine.)

Does this not bother anyone else?

And, Haus - instead of crying tears of blood, why not just use the Headshop exclusively for arguments with yourself? Invent another suit if you like, and duel it out with pithy bon mots and destructive logic. Rename the forum "The House of Haus". I'd probably read it, occasionally.

Nietzsch E. Coyote

23:56 / 18.04.03

I've tried to get people to join up but as one friend told me, "All my interests are in Headshop and they are not nice in there." She was worried about being called stupid because of her spelling. She is dyslexic.

23:58 / 18.04.03

Duncan, as has been mentioned, could you either cut & paste your previous posts or link to old threads on this subject? My battered old temporal lobes can't stand this degree of deja vu.

Tryphena Absent

00:00 / 19.04.03

they've been put off by the elitist nature of a number of people here (their words, not mine.)

What precisely do you mean by 'the elitist nature'? I'm actually enthralled by this, I think that every member of this board deserves an actual definition of those words instead of just the usual spouting out. Is it an intellectual thing? The way trolls are treated or the requirements of other members towards language use?

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

00:00 / 19.04.03

i avoid the headshop because my opinions are not seen a very kind light sometimes, and i have been compared to hitler once or twice there way back when. it doesnt really bother me, as the headshop isnt really my bag anyway, and i seem to have plenty of posts without getting all theory bitchy.

as far as the gay comment goes, please, no one be offended if i use the phrase "smoking a few fags" as i am referring to tobacco, and not a drive by at the local fag bar...of course i mean fag in an ironic way....see im really a smart guy, and i just use these words because of growing up the only white kid in a negro neighborhood...also, i would like to say that i think everyone on barbelith is to busy talking and not actually doing anything, its time for the revolution. oh, and women are evil.

THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY EVERY POST EVER ON BARBELITH

(ok, i admit, that was a silly post, but man, this whole topic gives me the chuckles)

Nietzsch E. Coyote

00:03 / 19.04.03

How many times HAVE we had this argument?

Tryphena Absent

00:08 / 19.04.03

Does it matter?

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

00:13 / 19.04.03

as far as the elitist nature of the head shop goes i think its an issue of people posting things they think ar profound there only to be told
a: "been there done that"
b: "your wrong"
or, and here is the kicker
c: "explain yourself"

now on a board that has been running for years its normal to have a been there done that attitude. The "your wrong" attitude pops up from time to time, but is not really that common. No "explain yourself" is usually where troll posters usually lose it and flip out, because a lot of the time they dont have any kind of legitimate or thought out argument for what the let fall on the keyboard from their brains.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

00:16 / 19.04.03

oh, and haus uses words with more syllables than barbelith, and that scares people off

Tryphena Absent

00:18 / 19.04.03

But I got the impression that Duncan was talking about the entire board and not just Head Shop and I'd really like him to address the definition himself as he seems to be the person with a problem- unless you agree?

00:18 / 19.04.03

He also knows the difference between "your" and "you're" - and I guess that can scare some people off...

00:21 / 19.04.03

As a Lither who has not experienced this kind of discussion before I would actually be interested to know why there's such a deep rooted suggestion of elitism from one side of the board, and total dismissiveness from another. I have been extremely fortunate (so far) in that as a newbie I was not chased away, and I am really glad about this, because I like Barbelith very much. Personally, I have found everyone very welcoming, even when I've done things wrong (like forget topic abstracts) but I can see how others could feel intimidated.

Perhaps if none of you wish to have this conversation again you can point me in the direction of the original discussion, and I can read that, and if someone could tell me what the outcome of the debate was, I'd like that very much too.

I'm interested in this because (and this may sound a little hand-holdy) I have found that being able to feel part of the board here has enriched my life a great deal, and I'd like to think that other people could come and find the board and get the same experience and treatment as I have.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

00:25 / 19.04.03

no, i do not agree with insinuation of elitism, i was just supplying a possible position duncan may have

and yes ganesh, occasionally i create a typo, as im sure you do, however i am at work and in the event the boss walks by i dont have the luxory of proofreading.

also, when arguing agains elitism it may be best NOT to get spelling nazi on folks...

00:31 / 19.04.03

Hey, now, none of that, Ganesh—people will start saying you're an elitist...

I suppose this place is elitist, in the sense that it requires a modicum of skill in order to participate. The circus is elitist, too—they won't let you onto the trapeze unless you know what the hell you're doing. If you haven't got the necessary training, your flight on the bar is likely to be less than spectacular, and to end messily.

Just so, if you haven't got decent communication skills, if you're inappropriately socialized, if you are unprepared to defend your opinions without sidetracking the argument or engaging in ad hominem attacks, if you're unable to follow or present a logical argument, if you've got a thin skin... things are going to get ugly here.

We're not elitist, just picky.
A girl's got to have her standards, you know.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

00:33 / 19.04.03

thanks jack, that was kind of what i was trying to sya, but i was working os stupid databases (databasi?) and couldnt think...

also, i keep this link around for when people get snarky, it is work safe
old skool

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

00:34 / 19.04.03

oh, and all of this spelling crap could be solved by letting people moderate their own posts without a 2nd vote...

00:37 / 19.04.03

Having just defined what "elitist" isn't, perhaps I should tackle what it is...

What would be elitist, I think, is the stigmatizing of particular viewpoints: but I honestly don't think that is the case. All viewpoints and ideological stances are permissible—if that ideological stance can be backed up by a logical and well-rerasoned argument (i.e., one based on evidence more substantive than personal prejudice or anecdote).

I think there's a recognition that people of good will can look at the same evidence and draw different conclusions from it, and in general we can agree to disagree: but if an ideological stance is poorly argued, self-serving, or illogical—man, that shit brings out the wolves, red in fang and claw.

Tryphena Absent

00:53 / 19.04.03

Well I truly believe that Jack Fear has expressed the nature of this place.

The Internet as a whole should not be a vehicle for dumbing down- by its very nature it can provide us with an extremely substantial amount of information and the better reasoned that info is the better this whole system works. I think that is true, not only of message boards, of news items and articles. It gets very tiring to encounter boards with multitudes of people expressing the same boring and illogical opinions all the time and it's nice to be somewhere that demands an explanation. Despite my age I've been online for far too long and am sick to death of the meandering and mindless approach that most places take to... well, pretty much everything.

00:53 / 19.04.03

LOL, you all had funny labels... gawd, there was a *great* bit in there by Crunchy about capitalism...

...and that's not what elitism is, Jack!

00:58 / 19.04.03

From a textbook standpoint? No, it isn't. But in the sense that the word gets bandied about here—mmmmmmaybe. For all that people raise the allegation of "elitism," they rarely bother to define it with any precision...

What definition of "elitism" do you find useful in this context, Persephone? And do you think it applies to this board?

01:12 / 19.04.03

Elitism? Well.

Let's get a few things out of the way first.

1. There *is* a Barbelith Clique. This is entirely as to be expected, since Barbelith is a group of people, some of whom have similar opinions, who reinforce each other, thus generating a clique, or more than one clique.

2. What matters, rather than the existence of said clique is, how does that clique affect the rest of the board? I mean, cliques are irrelevant if they do nothing. In general, whatever cliques exist don't have active moderator-based control (the software is set up so that such control is difficult to gain, and I think the people involved are activey opposed to that sort of thing). Thus, control is limited to social aspects - a number of people hectoring you for your views. This is to be expected. You really thought this was a blank canvas? Hahahahaha. When Haus says "please supply me with an instance" when confronted with accusations of bias, it's quite apposite - moderator bias seems extremely rare, particularly when you compare this to otherb boards.

So, really, what are the complaints about? That there is a strong presence of a particular view in one area of the board? Fine. But get over it.

01:20 / 19.04.03

The Internet as a whole should not be a vehicle for dumbing down- by its very nature it can provide us with an extremely substantial amount of information and the better reasoned that info is the better this whole system works.

All viewpoints and ideological stances are permissible—if that ideological stance can be backed up by a logical and well-rerasoned argument (i.e., one based on evidence more substantive than personal prejudice or anecdote).

I absolutely agree with these two statements, but I think perhaps the point isn't whether new posters are able to meet these standards or not, and more to do with how others react if and when they don't. If a person posts something which isn't well-reasoned and thought through, is it necessary to react to it in such a mocking fashion? Or could it perhaps be addressed in another manner?

For example, the spelling thing worries me - I'm really anally retentive about spelling, but people *do* make mistakes, especially when typing, some people are dyslexic, or just bad spellers. All the same, I don't equate bad spelling and poor grammar with being stupid, just the same as I don't assume that posts which contain little (if any) capitalisation are not worth reading.

01:30 / 19.04.03

Well, I would first say that the idea of elitism presupposes an elite --i.e., a select number who are thought to be or think themselves better than the rest of their number. And to get to a select number, you have to select. So when you say...

We're not elitist, just picky.
A girl's got to have her standards, you know.

...that's practically a pure expression of elitism. Is all I'm saying.

As to whether I think this definition of elitism applies to Barbelith, my answer is of course. Isn't it obvious?

Tryphena Absent

01:35 / 19.04.03

I think there's a rather big difference between picky and elitist. Picky is saying you prefer Dairy Milk to Galaxy and elitist is saying Dairy Milk is better than Galaxy.

01:44 / 19.04.03

LOL... but say I'm Galaxy and you're you. It doesn't make that much difference to me whether you say I prefer Dairy Milk to you or Dairy Milk is better than you. I'm still this lonely uneaten candy bar! They're candy bars, right? I'm just saying, look at it from the point of view of the candy bar.

Tryphena Absent

01:56 / 19.04.03

I'd be damn glad not to be eaten!

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