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Girls Aloud

 
  

Page: 123(4)56789

 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:59 / 10.01.03
I must say I find it a bit strange that very few people in this thread have pointed out that perhaps people listen to pop music because they like the sound it makes...
 
 
deja_vroom
11:03 / 10.01.03
Thank you, Kit-Kat Club.
 
 
rizla mission
11:09 / 10.01.03
because this is starting to get ridiculous.

You can say that again.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:22 / 10.01.03
And again, Jade, I ask how you know this. Insiders in both camps? Unless you have something to back up your comparison, I'm afraid I'll have to conclude that it's just your personal interpretation - projecting your idea of which is the prioritised element, speculating on motivations based on your own preconceived ideas... Again. Did you even read various of Flux's posts above?

Kit-Cat, I so have pointed this out! Look at the Apple-Picker's post about Kylie that I quoted above...

But if it helps, I'm happy to write extensively about why I like 'Dirrty', sticking entirely to the way it sounds (and writing as someone who doesn't find Aguilera at all attractive).
 
 
deja_vroom
11:32 / 10.01.03
I don't need insiders in both camps. For me, it became clear when I saw that Mariah Carey video. It was, how can I say it, practically rubbed in my face.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:58 / 10.01.03
Fly - I know, that's why I said 'very few people' rather than 'no one' - calm down, old chap...

Jade - I actually did mean that lots of people probably like pop music because of the way it sounds, sorry - certainly that's why I like it (or some of it). No television means that the only thing I have to go on is the sound... quite a lot of it is pretty inventive in many ways, I reckon.
 
 
Bear
12:02 / 10.01.03
and writing as someone who doesn't find Aguilera at all attractive

Your like soooo gay...

Sorry very interesting thread not getting involved as I think everyone knows where I stand on pop music.

Hell I even like Girls Aloud single.
 
 
deja_vroom
12:06 / 10.01.03
Kit-Kat:Jade - I actually did mean that lots of people probably like pop music because of the way it sounds, sorry

I know, but I found it interesting, I mean, shouldn't it be the first thing mentioned? Hell, no one even bothered saying: "Here, download this track and this track, listen to them and tell us straightfaced these are not killer tunes!". You know, the sort of thing that comes from people who have confidence in their stand... I'm all ears, here. Any recommendations?
 
 
The Falcon
12:08 / 10.01.03
The song (and video) actually recapture Aguilera's sex-appeal which seemed to have disappeared.

What independent music recently released has had the sheer sex of that song? That's what I want to know.

Pop is (often) sex. Sex is good.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:17 / 10.01.03
Yeah, but Ash, Dunc? They're as pop as Pink etc anyday.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:17 / 10.01.03
But much more rubbish.
 
 
The Falcon
12:21 / 10.01.03
Jade, I'd recommend almost any Neptunes-produced songs as phenomenal pop - look up Neptunes on SoulSeek, and you'll get a screed. Exceptions - LL Cool J and Beenie Man.

Also a large amount of Timbaland and Missy-produced work is the business. I particularly like Justin Timberlake's Michael Jackson-channeling 'Cry Me A River' effort.

Some Darkchild stuff, too, the last two Brandy singles 'What about us?' and 'Full Moon' were drama-pop of high order.

Sugababes rarely fail also. Slightly more slow-burn than the instant 'hit' most of the aforementioned give.
 
 
The Falcon
12:25 / 10.01.03
Runce - much, much more rubbish. But they still have a skein of indie-kudos, 'cos they, like, write their own songs and play their own instruments. Which are guitars and drums.

I'm friends with Tim Wheeler's brother, who is one of the nicest people ever, so I'd assume they're good guys, and I feel bad about saying this, but Ash can really just fuck. off.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:29 / 10.01.03
Jade: you just switched to a completely different artist than the two we were talking about. And also yet again demonstrated your major issues with ladyparts, but that's another story. I'd love to know how you feel about Iggy Pop getting his kit off, though, or Courtney Love expressing her sexuality - is it yet again that these two, being rock artists, are self-evidently doing it in a way that is artistically valid and secondary to/harmonious with their musical vision? (Actually, I find myself suspecting that you'll give different answers for each, but we'll see.)

Slight tangent - I'm fascinated to know, since you clearly see this as such a binary thing, on which side of the line various artists fall. Princess Superstar? Gonzales? U2? REM? Ol' Dirty Bastard? Lauryn Hill? Har Mar Superstar?
 
 
The Falcon
12:34 / 10.01.03
Well there's an argument that some of these folk are hip-hop, whcih is a law unto itself: Princess Superstar, Gonzales, Ol' Dirty Bastard, Lauryn Hill.

Likewise, some of the Neptunes and Timbaland production I mention. But not the Britney and Justin singles.

U2 and REM are very pop-ular rock acts.

I don't know Har Mar Superstar, but I've been hearing a lot recently. Is it/are they good?

I thought the grounds for pop discussion was 'synthetic' music.
 
 
deja_vroom
12:53 / 10.01.03
Flyboy:Jade: you just switched to a completely different artist than the two we were talking about.

Actually *I* brought Mariah Carey earlier into discussion, using her as an example of the chauvinist sexism often found in Pop artists. It's only fair that I refer to her again to validate my points of view.

And also yet again demonstrated your major issues with ladyparts, but that's another story.

Ooo, Flyboy-wonder funny. But such behaviour isn't really helpful if we're trying to keep a decent discussion level, huh?

Be right back...
 
 
deja_vroom
13:51 / 10.01.03
Flyboy:I'd love to know how you feel about Iggy Pop getting his kit off, though, or Courtney Love expressing her sexuality

Um, but are they the norm among the vast alt-rock army? Is the majority of garage bands shaking their pelvis in a camera close-up (don't mention Bono. Try not to insult me) and making videos exploring their sex-appeal instead of their music? I don't think so.

I'm talking about a musical style known for the importance it gives to the visual part of the musical entertainment experience. You're mentioning artists that are too few in number to make their behaviour an inherent characteristic of the pop scene.


---
Another point:
Another point:

Byron mentioned the army of excellent musicians that craft the pop tunes these people sing. If music is just as important in the Pop scene as it is in the pop scene, why we don't see groups of these musicians in the charts? Like... PopCraft Ensemble, featuring two arrangers, two guitar players, one conductor, three female singers etc etc, you know? The full corporate bland music army. But then... some of these people are old. There are some fatties there. That guy with the glasses... that won't sell. No. We need a young group to perform these songs. We need, let's see... one rebel, one Nice Guy, one that looks kinda nerdy... ooh, a shy one! A shy one is good!

See where I'm getting at? If ...And you Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead's drummer leaves the group and they replace him, we'll know instantly the difference when the new material comes out. Now, Justin Timberlake... it could be Wilbur Mellencamp Jr, or anyone else, who would know the difference?
 
 
No star here laces
13:56 / 10.01.03
If you don't think sex-appeal, haircuts or booty shaking is of interest to the alt-rock army then I recommend you go check out some of the indie chat sites on the 'worst ever' thread.

Which i have to hang my head in shame for mocking, apparently...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:22 / 10.01.04
I've just seen/heard the Girls Aloud version of 'Jump (For My Love)' for about the twenty-fifth time on a music channel.

God, I love it when I'm right.
 
 
Eppy
18:42 / 14.01.04
To bring up something Jade said a bit earlier in the thread (i.e. on page 1):

All I'm saying is that act pops such as the ones mentioned in this thread are meant to be ephemeral from their inception...I'm saying that, because of this fact, they can be interesting to me in a sociological approach, if I get interested in investigating the mechanisms involved in the process of marketing a certain style/young sex-icon to a broad audience...The marketing people, the designers, the PR people involved in the process of marketing these popstars see them more as products than artistic acts (to do otherwise would minimize their profit margin).

This is not true, or at least not always true, and I say this as someone who works in the record industry. Let's take the two major claims one-by-one.

1) Pop acts are designed to be ephemeral.

Now, why the hell would you do that? Does that make any sense, from a commercial standpoint? There are certainly groups assumed to be ephemeral, but these are usually either novelty acts or one-off collaborations. (And even these sometimes take off!) So yes, Fast Food Rockers, We Are The World, and Best of Both Worlds were all designed (probably) to be short-lived projects.

But these are the exceptions, not the rules. If acts were supposed to be ephermal, why would record labels invest, often heavily, in the solo careers of members of successful groups, when that hardly seems to be aiming for something short-lived? Why would most new acts get seven-record deals, which is the industry standard, when they'd never need more than one or two? Yes, most pop acts do have short careers, but that's hardly by design. Having a long career is a really hard trick in music, in pop or otherwise. If artists knew they were supposed to be ephemeral, why would they continue to make those solo records?

So aside from being untrue in practice, this doesn't make any sense in theory, either, to the degree that I don't really know where to start in terms of disproving it. Deep breath. OK, first thing, and trust me on this one, it costs way too much money for a label to have an act with a successful hit debut and then either reject the second album or make it a dud for this to really be a standard business practice. (Brief explanation: usually, if an artist sells over X number of records, the label is contractually required to pick up the option for the second album, and then has a guaranteed recording budget they have to lay out based on those sales, and if the first album's a hit, the option's going to get picked up AND the maximum recording budget will get paid, so that's a good $300,000-$1,000,000 USD soaking, depending on the deal.)

But besides this, why the hell would a label not want their artist to make more albums and sell more records? It doesn't make much sense. This also gives way too much credit to record execs' abilities to spot and exploit fads, trends, etc. Trust me on this one: they don't. If they could, the industry would run a lot more smoothly, as you could have your lines of quickly-rotating disposable product, all destined to succeed, and then your lines of long-term catalog investments. But the fact is, you almost never have a guaranteed hit, and you never ever ever have a guaranteed hit with a first-time artist. And so they throw a lot of bands at the wall and see what sticks. Now, you can certainly make the criticism that this practice involves a lot of acts getting dropped very quickly if they don't have immediate success, but at this point in my experience I tend to say that acts this happens to are either a) fucking morons, as they should know at this point to build up their following with a few indie releases before jumping to a major, or b) just not cut out for the level of exposure that particular label can give them, and better off somewhere else. You could also make the criticism that labels then don't devote as much resources as they should to promoting acts that could be successful with more of a push, but that "we could have broken if just..." argument is pretty hard to prove anyway.

2) People in the music industry see music as more a product than an art.

Well, yes and no. I guess I would say the music industry people see music as product like teachers see students as clients: some do, and some don't, but way more don't than do. The whole industry relies on that belief, and it would be run much, much differently if we really did see it as a product instead of an art. Of course, at heart, it is a product from this point of view, and you'll neither keep your job nor succeed at making the music you're promoting well-known if you don't see it as product, to a certain degree. (This being especially true when you're promoting music you don't really like--sure, you don't like it, but presumably some people do, and it would be unfair to them and the artists if you spiked it just because you're not a big fan of, say, jambands from New Jersey doing mostly cover songs.)

But look, despite any stories you've heard, 99% of music industry jobs are badly-paying and extremely unstable. Sure, if you hit big, particularly as an A&R guy, manager, or lawyer, you'll be rolling in it, but most people aren't in these positions and have only dim hopes of someday getting 2 points on a diamond release. And so mostly, you stay in it for five or ten or forty years not waiting to cash in, but because you sincerely love music. This is certainly the case with most of the people I've come in contact with, somewhat to my surprise. Hell, even the finance folks have a stronger-than-average love of toonage. It might not necessarily be the kind of music you love--there are a seemingly inordinate number of ex- or current metalheads in my circles--but they do really love music. Plus, at all but the highest and lowest levels, you have a personal relationship in one way or the other with the people you're promoting, and the music biz is built on personal relationships. Seeing an artist's CD in stores or on the charts or on MTV that you've worked on gives you a real sense of craftsman's pride. It's definitely not product then.

So in sum: despite the incredibly inaccurate metaphor used to describe pop music--"manufactured"--it is made by real musicians using real instruments and promoted by real people who really love music, and who want it to do well because they like it.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:34 / 16.01.04
Going back to the issue of sexual expression in pop, I still think that with 'Can't Hold Us Down' Christina and Kim pretty much
nailed it in song form. Of course, the response to this from the puritan anti-pop crowd was even more vitriolic than ever. e crunk over at Spizzazz, summed this up better than I could:

"at the time ['Can't Hold Us Down'] was released all the internet shit about her was like, "oh it's obvious aguilera and lil kim have reached some kind of nadir in the trend of looking like dead-eyed prostitute freaks." no it is not fucking obvious, you creeps! maybe they are just having fun with style and you all hate women? guilty until proven innocent!"
 
 
suds
13:55 / 16.01.04
this is what i wrote about the song in my diaryland in september 03:

one song i am really loving right now is "can't hold us down" by christina featuring lil kim. i totally adore lil kim; i love her sultry, bored voice and how she can rap about anything and make it really blithe or sassy. it was always my favourite song on "stripped" but for some reason i never thought it would wind up being a single.

i don't know why, i guess because it's so fierce and provocative. a lot of people are saying the song is just feminism-lite but i think the message is a clear and important one. the lyrics rock.
"so what am i not supposed to have an opinion?
should i be quiet just because i'm a woman?
call me a bitch cos i speak what's on my mind, guess it's easier for you to swallow if i sat and smiled".
that's fucking cool shit for people to be listening to!

i read this boys' blog today (who i'm not going to name because i don't want to get into all that shit again) who said that christina shouldn't be talking about the double standard she's facing because she's in those teeny pink shorts in the video! i guess the boy in question would prefer it if she was in a more demure outfit? why can't christina sing what she wants and wear something teeny and cute while doing so? would her message be stronger if she covered up some skin?

i think it's nothing short of awesome that a pop song like "can't hold us down" can be a wonderful pop song with cool, feminist lyrics. in the last couple of years, there have been a ton of reports stating that right now, a lot of girls are having a problem with being called feminists, and many young girls are finding it difficult to speak up when they witness sexism first hand. so i don't see how christina doing this song is anything but cool.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:49 / 16.07.04
Nobody sees The Show
Not 'til my heart says so
If it's not you, oh no
I won't do that
Boy if you want to be
My speciality
You'll have to wait for me
And that is that


I like the way, with the arguably exception of 'Life Got Cold', every Girls Aloud single has arguably been better than the last one.

It's weird how much can change in a year. I'm feeling a lot more militant and secure in championning this band: that could just be because they have more of a proven track record now, but I still can't believe my second post in this thread.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
11:05 / 16.07.04
Dear Flyboy: I have twigged you. You are the satanic mastermind who picks the music for clothes stores everywhere. You have to be stopped.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:52 / 16.07.04
Clothes stores play the music their assumed clientele are assumed to like, Radiator. The places that sell the oversized black hoodies with flaming skulls on them don't tend to play Girls Aloud or Scissor Sisters, and so on...
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
13:14 / 16.07.04
See, I don't know that, because I'm not a member of the evil clothes shop music cartel. All I know is that you're determined to hound me from retail work with your evil pop hipsterisim. This town(centre high street) ain't big enough for the both of us motherfucker, and at least one person is going to get chased down a corridor by an explosion before this is over. In bullet time.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:24 / 14.10.04
I'm just a love machine
Like Felix Guattari
Give me a kiss or three
And I'm fine!
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
14:20 / 14.10.04
Love machine is better than every song released by all the trendy hip nu-indie bands in the last year. Fact.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
14:39 / 14.10.04
Love machine? You're kidding, right?

Taking the song on it's own merits, it sounds like the writers have been raiding Atomic Kitten's bins (Atomic Kitten after they stopped nicking samples off the KLF and got really boring).

Compairing it to the awesome (Ah ah I'm just a) Love Machine by The Miracles, which it's name will always bring to mind, it's an abomination.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
14:40 / 14.10.04
But you're right, it is indeed better than all the nu-indie bands put together. Like the Libertines. And The Strokes.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
14:40 / 14.10.04
But you're right, it is indeed better than all the nu-indie bands put together. Like the Libertines. And The Strokes.
 
 
Bear
14:50 / 14.10.04
I agree with Suedey - as for Atomic Kitten? Which song do you reckon it sounds like, I can't think of any similarities at all?
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
15:00 / 14.10.04
It's the general vibe of the thing - a vauge kind of attempt at cheekiness, general air of utter banality, shit production - it's like the platonic exemplar of what an Atomic Kitten song ought to sound like.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:06 / 14.10.04
There's no banality there at all: lyrically it's insane gobbledeegook - "let's go eskimo", "gift-wrapped kitty-cats", "Mr Prehistoric, make your wheel", plus the Franky Goes To Hollywood reference - musically, it's skiffle with a trance-pop breakdown...
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
15:19 / 14.10.04
It isn't really, though, is it? I used to scan the free music channels when I was bored waiting to go back to uni and the only songs I couldn't make it through were Love Machine and that Maroon 5 bullshit. To me, it's like Mr Nobody - I just can't percieve it, there's nothing there.

Of course, our positions boil down to you like it and I don't like it, so it's not like we can realy debate this shit out. I just keep thinking of how great the Miracles track is and it's not even in the same universe.
 
  

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