Barbelith Underground > Temple > BARBELITH: PERSONAL AND GLOBAL WORKINGS

How am I contradicting myself? I've read back those PMs and I did everything I said I would do, plus more.

I said in those PMs that I didn't want to be directly involved in the working involving the Transducer. To date I haven’t been involved. I said I’d post to the effect that further work should be done in order to test effectiveness, iron out any bugs or problems. I said I thought that people with specialist knowledge of the situations into which the Transducer would be deployed should be involved. All that was included in my first post to the thread. I also suggested that this work be done off-board because at the time I thought Barbelith was more suited to debate than group work. In many ways I still think that, and it’s probable that the only reason the Barbelith worked well in that respect is because… well, this board is named after it. Working off-board was also something I wrote about in the first post. So it’s all here in this thread.

I viewed the Transducer in the context of what it was designed to do, the aims it was intended to bring about. Because of this I came up with another idea to fulfil the same end. Perhaps this is the problem you have with me: that I cared more about what the Transducer was supposed to do than I did about the Transducer. Again, given that I explicitly stated that I didn’t want to be involved with the Transducer via a PM to you prior to starting this thread I can’t be held responsible for not directly working with the Transducer.

As a result of wanting to change the world in what I hoped would be a positive way I came up with another idea for doing just that. I mentioned that here some time before I chose to do any work in the area myself. I wanted to use the right tool for the job, and I chose that tool based on what little knowledge I had at the time. That I was wrong would later be proved in the results I got from the working. I thought Barbelith would be a good way to change the world. Barbelith told me to get directly involved rather than via using a third agency as mediator. Which I did: I’m now qualified in NLP methods of changework and I’m employed by the Police. I’m better positioned to change what I believe should be changed in a more hands-on way. The way my life is now shows that I’ve cared increasingly about the results I achieved in this working and applied myself in a long-term manner.

Everything I thought concerning this matter was written in public forum to be discussed and debated and to have people's ideas added to the mix. I suggested that further work be done, and advised that people who wanted to be involved with the Transducer could do whatever additional work they wanted to do with it (bearing in mind that the suggestion to work with the Transducer be viewed in the context of everything else I'd had to say on the subject, ie: my reservations listed upthread).

What I’ve done come up with an idea for a working, wrote it up in a way that was clear about my objectives, performed the working, wrote up my results along the way, and then live with the conclusions over an extended period of time. My only regret is not bringing the Barbelith working to a more formalised end when I had the experience in the HSBC training room. I unconsciously knew from that point on that I’d achieved my final result (hence things petered out for a while), but it took me a while to realise fully the meaning of this:

- Deal with every subject/situation in an individual manner.

- Treat others as you would expect to be treated.

- Don't coerse or control the subject, or work without their knowledge or consent.

- Remain honest and accountable, providing a means for the subject to provide feedback and ask questions.

- Ensure that everyone involved is aware of any potential risks and unknown variables.

It effectively meant that I could no longer ethically attempt changework carried out from a distance without the consent of all involved parties. Hence working through the agency of Barbelith couldn’t be justified: I had to be accountable in any involved changework.

In a way I’m really glad that you’ve raised your concerns so that I could state that explicitly. Full circle, there’s more closure to this working now. Having revisited the thread it’s been good to put a cap on it all from the perspective of my involvement.

On another note, I’ve viewed my posts to the threads you’ve linked to and this post of mine is why you put my name on the list of those to be involved in the Peace Mango working:

OK - with this in mind, I'm in. I just suggest being extremely careful. Exactly how large a scale are we talking here - and has anyone worked on this large a scale before?

Now that I read it all back I remember posting it, to. This is the only point at which I didn’t do what I said I was going to do. I backed out before the working started because of the position of my faith at the time. And I didn’t post on Barbelith to say that I’d backed out. It’s funny the things that don’t seem important at the time, but from which a lot of importance is drawn later on. Reminds me of Oldboy. And if that’s what’s caused all this (which I doubt… more below), and if it will make a difference, then I’m sorry.

However, bearing in mind that I explicitly stated in PM that I didn’t want to be involved in the Transducer working prior to starting this thread, that’s all moot. I told you before this started that I wasn’t going to do any direct work with it myself.

Now this is the complete situation from my perspective, Strix:

You and several others started a working to create the Transducer. You had a central role in planning and formulating it, along with several others. It was started in threads that you started, amidst a lot of goodwill. The world changed, people changed, and you couldn’t get the response from the board that you wanted concerning ongoing work. So you asked someone else to try and get that response for you.

I responded that I didn’t want to get involved personally with that working, but that I’d post to the board my ideas concerning it to see if I could drum up some interest. In the process of doing so I came up with more ideas to fulfil the same aims as the original working. I started that project, saying to everyone concerned that I wouldn’t be involved with the Transducer, and saying that the people who wanted to do more with it should do more with it. I also said a lot of other things on the subject, and I hoped that any continued work would take that into account.

From where I’m sitting it looks as though you started the working (with other people admittedly), carried it through its first stages, and are now blaming me for your choice not to do anything with it. No-one else has posted that they’ve experienced negative long-term effects from their involvement. Other people posted to this thread mentioning their ongoing interest in the Transducer: why didn’t you do something with them? You’re not the only person who cared about it, that’s here for anyone to read. But you blame everyone but yourself for not doing anything when you were the one who wanted to do something.

If you want a leader, be a leader. If you care about something, then actively care about it. If you recognise your responsibility (whether you feel that’s shared or not), shoulder it and see it through. If you want something then do it.

You say you’re experiencing consequences concerning all of this. Prove yourself as a magician and deal with them. You’ll come out stronger for it. Start a thread asking for ideas on how to deal with it if you’re stuck. If you feel that other people who were originally involved should help, ask them personally what they’re prepared to do and how they’ve avoided the fallout you’re experiencing.

It’s also worth noting that other people who were originally involved have strikingly different ideas to you regarding the Transducer circa 2005. Maybe they can shed some further light on this for you.

Papess

20:51 / 29.05.05

No. I told you via PM that I wasn’t going to get personally involved in the Transducer working.

I didn’t say that I would participate with altering or closing down Peace Mango, either via PM or in the thread. I said I would act as a consultant as an outsider to the working.

That was fine. That is all I ever wanted.

I started this thread to talking about what we were originally trying to do: effect change. I put all my thoughts on the page. I had no intention of Barbelith replacing the Transducer. They’re two different things. I didn’t start the thread with the intention of stopping any further work with the Transducer, whatever form that work took.

Yes, this whole forum is about effecting change. If you had no intention of replacing Transducer then why would you put forth whether we should work either with Transducer or Barbelith?

Everyone made their own choice about what to be involved with or not involved with. I’m not capable of making that choice for other people. Neither are you.

No, but different people have different influences here. I was being slagged at the time, and that is why I asked a mod to help. People don't want to work with me on this because because of all the negativity that was directed at me, including accusations that I had personal selfish reasons for my involvment with the Transducer that were never explained or supported, but no one was kind enough to question my accuser on. I asked you and others because my integrity was sullied due to this. You know that.

I can’t make people interested in the Transducer working. But this thread has shown that there were people interested in it.

Yet, this thread, that was supposed to be of help and the place to do that, as you reassured me, was taken over by another working.

That’s what some people on this thread seemed to indicate. I didn’t want to participate in taking that away from them.

Well, neither did I, but if it is not effective and possibly dangerous, then it needs to be dissolved to the best of our ability, or altered in some way. I wanted help with that brainstorming, that doesn't include using an alternative.

I’m one of the only people who is still actively engaged in dialogue with you about this,...

Yes, because I have called you on it. Also, you are not talking about resolutions, you are defending your past actions.

You have to include yourself as one of those people. You’ve said nothing about this on the board for around two years.

I was the one asking for help with this in the first place. Peolple were criticising but not offering solutions. I have spent two years observing the effects of this and feeling like I have no recourse because really, is it my place alone to make decisions about a working that a group did? I did ask you and everyone else for help. I have even asked MC in this thread as to how she removed her energy from the working, as this might have had an effect on it, or it may be a possible solution. I don't see why I need to bash my head against everyone's walls to get results.

How have you come to this conclusion? There’s nothing personal about this whatsoever for me. I’ve given my opinion on a magical working. You did a lot of work to kick start it, and then any involvement petered out.

It petered out because of the accusations made against me. That was personal.

If I started a thread without any reference to this dispute that asked people what they thought should be done about the Transducer, would that make you happy? Because that’s part of what was done here. Would another thread have any better results?

It would have mademe happy if that was done in the first place, as it stands, I am going to do this, my integrity sullied or not. People can choose to do the right thing, or leave it up to me - the one with allegedly little integrity and personal interest in mind.

The keys were handed out to anyone, regardless of vetting, from the very start.

The keys were handed out to everyone when it was brought off the line, to use the analogy. How was I supposed to know there would be a recall?

At the moment it seems that way, yeah. As a conciliatory gesture I’m prepared to start one last thread on the Transducer, without reference to any of this dispute between you and I. Do you think it will make a difference? What if people don’t answer the way you want them to answer? They didn’t here after all, but at least you’ll have shown people how deep your concerns run prior to the start of the thread.

At the moment I am prepared to, I am giong to take some time to put it together. I won't reference this either as it is irrelevant to repairing or dissolving the Transducer at this point. There were some posts in this thread about what to do with the Transducer, but it got lost in all the excitement of using Barbelith Egregore. How was this thread supposed to work with two focal points? Makes for an impossible way to find a solution to one, while building up interest for the newer working.

And I don’t want to infantilise you by doing something that you’re capable and skilled enough to do yourself. There are long-term implications for taking someone’s burden away, and I don’t want to harm you by doing that.

Thank you, but I didn't want to do the same thing to everyone else who worked on the Transducer. It seems people don't really mind if I do that though. I will do my best not to harm everyone else by shouldering the burden myself.

Xyu:

One thing that probably should be done is to pm each one of those people asking if it should be dissolved or not, and see who replies. See who get's back in touch and then after a week or so, and maybe make the decision from the majority who've decided either way.

Good idea. A few of those people have left the board since then, or may be difficult to identify due to name changes. There was at least one person I know who did the working that was not on the list too. The majority is all I hope for.

I'm not very experienced with servitors, what I could do though is treat it like an independant being and try helping out with healing/releasing/transforming it, whatever's decided.

Well, that is lovely. I wasn't terribly experienced myself when I got involved with that, which is why I asked for assistance. It has been a learning experience for me, though. The main difference froma servitor to a deity or another being that we can summon, is it is created for a specific purpose. People tend to view tham as a bit robotic and even refer to the task allocated as the programming.

I tried evoking it last night, and probably didn't get much from it, but from what I did get I didn't sense anything malevolent, just a decent amount of confusion and it seemed a little ill, like the transducing function isn't going the wrong way, but not really working at all and it looked like it was stagnating. I gave it some healing energy and sent it on it's way, then it seemed to come back later and hovered around for a bit, so I said I'd try and help and get back to it and then it left. It didn't look like it was going to be easy to get it to go until I agreed to help either, and I felt sorry for it. (I treat them as beings and not servitors) If it was a person I get the feeling that it would be feeling lost, confused and a little ill, but I think I was able to help it with whatever illness or negative energy it had.

Thank you. Nicely done. I also noticed it's tendancy to hover around. I do shoulder the brunt of the negativity that it issues forth, I have too out of a sense of duty to it. I do so perhaps out of fear, but that is pretty negative too. It is not a malevolent creature (I also treat servitors as beings, not robots or slaves), it is just the task is has been given has a fallout.

I have even seen Transducer in a couple of visions, the first being brought on by hearing it say hello to me.

I was expecting it to be pretty huge aswell and what I evoked wasn't all that big, I was surprised, but then agin if it hasn't been worked with then maybe the lack of will directing it will have caused it to shrink like that.

There was the suggestion of it changing form, whic I am uncertain of. But it is an fair hypotheis that it make be small due to lack of use.

Like I said though, I'm in if you need me, I'd rather try and help than see you stuck like this. The one thing I'd do personally would be to transform it into a normal servitor, make an ally of it, but that's not upto me so I'll see what happens.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I'll make a smaller temporary servitor based on transducer anyway and start getting a feel of what it's like just incase.

Cool. Let us know what your findings are, Xyu.

I am very interested in first looking at all the varibles and possible flaws, and then seeing if they can be fixed, or if Transducer needs to be dissolved. I will start another thread for this.