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bdsm questions?

  
  

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Daemon est Deus Inversus
19:20 / 31.01.07
Bloodly hell. I'll share this. You're a male, athletic, muscular. You are totally in control of yourself. Yet, you totally submit to Goddess. You almost understand Babalon. You'll never understand Kali. You play in a variety of clubs. You form few realationships. A few are honest. Not many. In these you fail because you can't give up total control. You come close enough. You become a top for a while (but always with an adult girl-child, never a woman). You separate magic from your sex life. It goes well enough....

It's not the pain. That's a distraction, almost.... And an annoyance for the Domina.
 
 
Ticker
19:48 / 31.01.07
You separate magic from your sex life. It goes well enough....

would you care to unpack this a bit maybe here or in the Temple BDSM thread?


...and I'm not sure what you mean by:

And an annoyance for the Domina.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
21:10 / 31.01.07
I'd be more than willing....
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
21:21 / 31.01.07
Of course, it's an annoyance for the Domina. Let's move this to the other thread. The first Domina that I ever knew, and I was a sophmore in college, auctioned me off after one weekend. Two weeks later, she sent me a note: "Don't try to top from the bottom."
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:58 / 31.01.07
Your pain might have been a distraction for one particular "domina", DEDI. It is not necessarily a situation in which one can generalise from the particular.
 
 
Princess
22:02 / 31.01.07
and she "auctioned you off" and "sent a note"?I'm not entirely au fait with the scene, but am I right in thinking that's pretty poor practice and would suggest low levels of communication anyway? Ergo, you really should't take this woman to be ana example.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
22:48 / 31.01.07
Not a distraction, Haus, an annoyance.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:55 / 31.01.07
Forgive me my inattention.

Your pain might have been an annoyance for one particular "domina", DEDI. It is not necessarily a situation in which one can generalise from the particular.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
01:08 / 01.02.07
Can we, by voce populare, move this to Temple, Haus?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
01:29 / 01.02.07
Dedi, Haus is merely responding to something you've already posted to this thread; I think it's going to be up to you to move the party next door. I'd like to see your posts unpacked a little too, and I feel the Temple thread might be a better place to do it.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
02:46 / 01.02.07
Carnival,
de ud., su atto. y s.s., q.b.s.p.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:23 / 01.02.07
I appreciate your concern, MC, but nothing would make me happier than to see DEDI take his thoughts to the Temple. You head on over, DEDI, and I'll be along any second.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:33 / 01.02.07
Dedi, that is not appropriate. If you want to address me personally, you can take it to PM; otherwise, try and engage with the topic at hand. In English, please.
 
 
Ticker
17:03 / 01.02.07
Ok can we please be civil in this thread? BDSM is a touchy subject and being inflammatory is not productive to the converstation.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:59 / 01.02.07
DEDI is an established troll with a history of directing personal abuse at Mordant Carnival. I'll dig out the links - I'm not quite sure why he's never been banned, other than this is Barbelith and therefore banning someone takes an age and is like pulling teeth.

My experience is that the overlap in the Farscape/kink Venn diagram is so large as to imply people would get the joke. I also think my earlier posts in the thread speak for themselves in indicating that I'm not going to mock anyone for posting about their experiences, unless they are mockworthy. Nevertheless, I'll move to delete the post from the thread if it's felt to be threadrot - I'm sure I can find somewhere else for it...

I'd add that my annoyance with DEDI is motivated partly by the fact that, if you read the whole thread, you'll see that Morpheus peddled the same line of bullshit - "dominants will always want to be cruel, in a bad way" - and so this is just a repeat of something we've already had to deal with. It's not disrespect for people who practice BDSM that motivates me to mock DEDI, quite the reverse.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:18 / 01.02.07
My experience is that the overlap in the Farscape/kink Venn diagram is so large as to imply people would get the joke.

Only people who watch Farscape, surely?
 
 
Ganesh
18:55 / 01.02.07
I'm not quite sure why he's never been banned, other than this is Barbelith and therefore banning someone takes an age and is like pulling teeth.

If I remember rightly, he apologised to La Carnival and averted banning. If people want to review this, the thread's in the Policy somewhere.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:11 / 01.02.07
Indeedy. The most recent page of the Moderation Requests thread has a link.

Now, donning my mod hat I'd like to gently direct Policyish discussion over there, and discussion of BDSM and sex as it does or does not relate to magic over to the appropriate Temple thread. Then we can get back to the kinky fun right here. Sound groovy?
 
 
Ticker
19:58 / 01.02.07
topping from the bottom is a phrase tossed about a lot but there are different issues jammed into it.

There is the back seat driver aspect of a bottom who wants to direct the action or who is critical of the top's choices. However there needs to be a path of communication for critique and a way for the bottom to give sensory feedback productively to the top.

Over the weekend another top asked me if I ever switch and we got into the converstation about how it sucks to be bored or unimpressed as a bottom. If the top is not confident and unable to drive skillfully no one who is able to perceive that is going to be comfortable. If a bottom is just bored or uninterested there are ways of communicating that and still having a viable scene.

Being able to switch is a highly educational experience even if it isn't 100% your focus. I can't say it does a lot for me every time but I do always learn something to keep in mind for when I'm topping.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:41 / 03.02.07
I think that path of communication is very important. It's best if a fair degree of discussion takes place beforehand, so that both parties are on the same wavelength. Like you say the expression gets tossed around a lot; sometimes it's a fair cop, with the bottom essentially expecting the top to act as a sort of sock-puppet in the enactment of a fantasy rather than being a participant in a mutually rewarding two-way exchange.

On the other hand, accustions like "topping from the bottom" can be misused. I've encountered people (relatively few, thankfully) who class things like safewords etc. as topping from the bottom and refuse point-blank to use them, or attach weighty conditions to their use.
 
 
Ticker
20:11 / 18.04.07
I've encountered people (relatively few, thankfully) who class things like safewords etc. as topping from the bottom and refuse point-blank to use them, or attach weighty conditions to their use.

Safewords are extremely difficult to wrangle sometimes. I support a graded approach but if a person I'm engaged with calls an end to the action overall my personal rule is that the decision stands even if they change their mind when the situation changes. An example to make that a bit more clear is if someone calls a safeword to end the scene because of pain or discomfort even if the immediate source of that is removed I consider the scene over, not out of some punitive reason, but rather because some people don't want to respect their own limits. I feel if it was bad enough 2 minutes ago that you wanted to end the action (not just downgrade it) I need to support that decision. Calling safewords can be very difficult and I believe partners need to be generous with the emotional fallout from hitting a limit. I invest in a healthy exchange not just an exchange.
 
 
· N · E · T ·
23:22 / 27.04.07
Great discussion going on in this thread.

I'm coming from a highly vanilla perspective here, however I'm curious about you folks and I read this artice a while ago. It makes sense to me on a theoretical level, but again, I'm not interested in engaging in much of BDSM so I don't have a connection with the community. In the article, they're basically saying that people with high powered jobs in the upper socioeconomic class tend to enjoy masochism because it transforms one's identity. In doing so, it relieves the stress associated with that identity.

Does this fit with your experience? Do you feel as though a major element of BDSM involves the transformation of identity? I'd like to hear what people into BDSM think of the research.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
01:51 / 01.05.07
"Safewords" are absolutely topping from the bottom. A natural domina will, for her own pleasure, take you to a new level almost every time. There's no point, if every time a slave is threatened or feels close to breaking, he yells "Mercy, Mistress." Get to know the Woman. Go out to dinner a few times. Then go to clubs where- particularly outside the private rooms- there are limits. Then develop a contract. Propose, "I can't handle CBT. I just find that too threatening. I also can't handle submitting to anyone other than a Woman. I would ask that you not introduce other Women into our play until after a little while. I know you won't permanently damage me. If I would disgrace myself, please use gags and/or restraints. In public, my job requires that I wear a discipline mask." She'll modify your request a bit. After that, the only safe word- instantly and irrevocably honored- is "I want out."
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:02 / 01.05.07
Dedi, you've contributed a great deal of largely worthless material to this board since you joined but this is a new low. The arrogance, the ignorance, the smugness, topped off with the all-too-familiar figure of the "natural Domina" who will of course be perfectly happy to respect any limitations you choose to place on her whilst being able, essentially, to read your mind... you've outdone yourself. To me, you speak like someone whose actual experience of BDSM is woefully limited--possibly because of the unaccountable dearth of "natural Dominas" who will accomodate your dangerously misguided attitudes.

The idea that using a safeword is "topping from the bottom" is ignorant and dangerous. It is of course up to the individuals oncerned whether they personally want or need a safeword, but suggesting that people who use safewords are Doing It Wrong is the absolute height of arrogance. Safewords are perfectly compatible with taking someone to "a new level every time." In fact, I would say that allowing the bottom the ability to express how close to hir tolerances ze is in the knowledge that this will be respected and honoured by hir top actually allows greater freedom for both to explore.

I use safewords when I top because I don't want to be in a position where I might, entirely inadvertantly, push someone over the edge and leave them damaged. I don't want an all-or-nothing binary state where the bottom is taking everything I dish out OR we've stopped everything dead. Even if you have got into that gloriously tuned in state where you're reading your play-partner almost intuitively, it's entirely possible for something totally unforeseen to crop up--someone who was doing jolly well in restraints suddently gets a massive cramp and needs to be released NOW, for instance.

Oh, and I have absolutely no respect for the person who makes a sub choose between enduring experiences that are outside their tolerances and breaking off the relationship. I consider that to be abuse.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:11 / 01.05.07
it's entirely possible for something totally unforeseen to crop up--someone who was doing jolly well in restraints suddently gets a massive cramp and needs to be released NOW, for instance.

Surely this by itself would be a good reason why safewords are a necessary part of BDSM from a purely practical viewpoint. Safewords. Safety.

In an environment of total control the sub would have to assume that their Dom knows the (if you'll excuse the phrase) ropes backwards and forwards. Safewords are like wearing a helmet when going rock-climbing.

If the Dom's going to ignore any plea for mercy up to and including "Umm, seriously I can't feel anything in my arms PLEASE UNTIE ME NOW!" then it can have potentially harmful consequences both physically and relationship-wise.

The totally-submissive sub/absolutely-in-control Dom is a great fantasy, but I'd be hesitant to practise it in reality even with a partner I'd been with for years.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:12 / 01.05.07
Oh, and I have absolutely no respect for the person who makes a sub choose between enduring experiences that are outside their tolerances and breaking off the relationship. I consider that to be abuse.

Damn right.
 
 
Katherine
11:23 / 01.05.07
Even if you have got into that gloriously tuned in state where you're reading your play-partner almost intuitively, it's entirely possible for something totally unforeseen to crop up--someone who was doing jolly
well in restraints suddently gets a massive cramp and needs to be released NOW,for instance.

Or when struggling you manage to twist a joint and you can't untwist or elevate the pain by yourself, from experience you can't always wait for someone to notice as cramp can set in after a few seconds.

Safewords are essential in my view because the person topping has so much to oversee and it's one method of feedback, personally I have found the traffic lights system works well rather than just a blanket word, for example when I would use 'amber' means 'I'm having a bit of difficulty here'. I'm not topping from below but offering insight into my current position, I would wait to be asked before saying the problem which could be from phyiscal pain (from the above mentioned cramp) or a mental effect that has occured.
 
 
Ticker
13:04 / 01.05.07
I've known a good number of people that have DEDI's perspective. These days the community has different language for it including the difference between Top/bottom Domme/sub Master/slave.

The difference between a Top and a Dominant is often vast as is the difference from Domme to Master.

Sometimes when one is a Domme there is only one safe word given to the sub. Using that safe word is as DEDI says, the equivlant of saying 'I want out' though in my experience it means the particular scene not the entire relationship.

Checking in doesn't need to be done via safe words especially in intense edge play. The other person may be beyond verbal communication and the Domme should be assessing their status constantly.

Topping is a very different headspace than being a Dominant and when a person chooses not to be a bottom but a submissive the dynamics change.

As a Domme if my sub uses the safeword the scene is over because it means they hit their hard limit and even if they change their mind five minutes after everything has been removed/untied/etc we both need to respect that they used it.

I also have fairly elaborate contracts (10 pages last count) with the people I play with that outline all acceptable interactions and consquences.

It's not the same as being a Top, it really is about taking over a great deal more control.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:12 / 01.05.07
Well, I understand all that, but what you've said there is a great deal different to Dedi's statment that using safewords constitutes "topping from the bottom."
 
 
Ticker
13:38 / 01.05.07
Well, I understand all that, but what you've said there is a great deal different to Dedi's statment that using safewords constitutes "topping from the bottom."

It depends on the context.

For example if in a D/s scene a sub uses their safeword designed to stop the scene but then wants to change later there's a communication problem. DEDI's perspective is a bit more rigid than my own and is full of generalizations which rightly make the rest of us uncomfortable.

Yet what DEDI is describing is commonly held as the proper way for many D/s exchanges. Out of context of the venue (DEDI mentions the play space's set limits) it's hard to say anything useful about ze's post but it isn't automatically dismissable either.

People really do have those experiences and view the Power Exchange as set in stone like that.

I personally structure my scenes so the person I'm engaged with only has one option of control left. They can only end the scene thus removing their other avenues of personal power.

The way I read DEDI's posts ze's only had a D/s exchange not a Top/bottom which is full of more options for negotiation. So ze's posts reads like a limited pro D/s and anti Top/bottom without unpacking why.

For myself I can say I prefer a D/s dynamic as it allows me to operate from a place of my desires more than a Top/bottom dynamic in which I as the Top am more facilitating the experience of the bottom. A submissive needs to trust me more and that takes a very special kind of investment in the relationship. A compatiable sub is much harder to find than a bottom for those reasons.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:49 / 01.05.07
For example if in a D/s scene a sub uses their safeword designed to stop the scene but then wants to change later there's a communication problem.

Is that communications problem necessarily equivalent to topping from the bottom? I would define topping from the bottom as attempting to manipulate the scene, and the top, in ways which are not acceptable in the agreed context of that scene. Attempting to use the top as a sockpuppet to enact one's fantasy, in other words.

I'd also flag the use of the term "natural domina" in the context of Dedi's post, which would seem to imply that any Domme, or top (it's not clear to me from that post precisely what kind of role we're talking about here) who does not conform to Dedi's ideal is not a "natural domia," which taken to its logical conclusion would mean that any Dom/me or top who employs safewords or related signals is a dilettente and a pretender. I find this implication unacceptable.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
13:51 / 01.05.07
DEDI, have you been reading too many smutty novels? Your idealised world looks like it needs a severe reality check. No wonder you're having trouble getting laid; any dominant or top worth her salt would run a mile from that idealistic bollocks.

Safewords need to be negotiated. In my view, they're most important when it's understand that a submissive/bottom might desire the freedom to protest, to say, "No! No!" without being taken seriously by the top. People find that they feel very ambivalently about setting hard limits. Sometimes safewords are a way for submissives and/or bottoms, to test their limits, and play with them. It's not just about setting a limit in stone. I like the traffic light system rather a lot for this precise reason: it's about feeling out the limits, paying attention to that precise line where something becomes difficult, rather than setting the limits out in advance.

Then again, a concrete safeword is no substitute for talking constantly to your bottom, checking out what's happening for hir, and asking for clear, comprehensive communications about where ze's at. Which is why I'm not so into the 'one word' safeword system. If used wrongly, it can stand in for communication requreing more words. If you need to untie a whole bunch of ropes, for example, you want to at least get an idea of why that's happening before your bottom decides that actually ze was just having a momentary lapse of courage and feels disappointed with you for untying hir.
 
 
Ticker
14:13 / 01.05.07
Is that communications problem necessarily equivalent to topping from the bottom? I would define topping from the bottom as attempting to manipulate the scene, and the top, in ways which are not acceptable in the agreed context of that scene. Attempting to use the top as a sockpuppet to enact one's fantasy, in other words.

It can be sometimes. Again generalizations are useless here. But I can say I've experienced bottoms who want to use safe words rather than lose control of the action which they've stated as an agreed upon goal. Fear can make people vassilate which can result in not wanting to reliquish control.

Attempting to use the top as a sockpuppet to enact one's fantasy, in other words.

Well sometimes that's what the scene is about in a Top/bottom exchange the critical bit being is is it discussed and understood ahead of time?

What DEDI is expressing IMO is contempt of people not playing in accordance with ze's preference. Which is crappy but common when people don't understand there are other ways of playing that are different from our own. Perhaps the other people are not playing badly in their own context.

I'd also flag the use of the term "natural domina" in the context of Dedi's post, which would seem to imply that any Domme, or top (it's not clear to me from that post precisely what kind of role we're talking about here) who does not conform to Dedi's ideal is not a "natural domia," which taken to its logical conclusion would mean that any Dom/me or top who employs safewords or related signals is a dilettente and a pretender. I find this implication unacceptable.

Well on one hand it's a sexual construct of a Dominant and reveals the glorification of the Person. I'm used to language like this popping up when people speak from personal BDSM experience because they are employing their lens of perception. I prefer to respect that this is the model they are operating from while drawing their attention to other valid models for other people. Often times the people will be willing to speak differently about their experiences from that of others. So far in this thread I've seen a lot of trashing on DEDI for ze's use of Domina but not a lot of understanding of it in cultural context. It can be a lot like talking about a religious authority figure.

which taken to its logical conclusion would mean that any Dom/me or top who employs safewords or related signals is a dilettente and a pretender. I find this implication unacceptable.

On the other hand I would ask DEDI to respect that other people in this discussion have different experiences and to frame hir responses more clearly as not to be unintentionally offensive.

I would say personally I think there is a confusion about the different dynamics happening here. I think DEDI is talking about a D/s exchange and saying that over use of safe words in that exchange erodes the dynamic. To which I would reply that's a generalization but in most cases D/s realtionships have far fewer safewords and some Master/slave relationships only have the 'exit' safeword it seems ze is mentioning.
 
 
Ticker
14:16 / 01.05.07
Disco:
DEDI, have you been reading too many smutty novels? Your idealised world looks like it needs a severe reality check. No wonder you're having trouble getting laid; any dominant or top worth her salt would run a mile from that idealistic bollocks.


The above makes me very uncomfortable as it makes me concerned if this is a respectful place for people to post about their experiences. There are people in my community who share DEDI's perspective and I feel the need to support it as a valid expression of personal sexuality even if it is a problematic one for this community.

I find your post above as I have quoted it to be a personal attack unprovoked by DEDI and to be unproductive to this discussion.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:27 / 01.05.07
I've seen a lot of trashing on DEDI for ze's use of Domina but not a lot of understanding of it in cultural context. It can be a lot like talking about a religious authority figure.

Excuse me, perhaps I was unclear. I have no problem with the use of the term Domina, although I would prefer to see it unpacked. Dedi seems to be using it in a certain very specific way to represent a group of traits, which is fine; it's less fine to use it as if we should all know exactly what he means by it.

What I objected to was the use of the phrase "natural Domina" in the context of Dedi's post, which also included the message that using safewords is equivalent to "topping from the bottom." The implication here that a way of interacting that involves safewords is incorrect or inferior. THis is not an appropriate message in a space that by its nature includes people with many different sexualities and ways of expressing them.

(I have to say that in general I rather object to any poster who repeatedly makes sweeping statments on strongly charged subjects such as BDSM and repeatedly fails to unpack these even when asked.)
 
  

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