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bdsm questions?

 
  

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hoopla
12:47 / 17.08.01
was reading in the policy section that there seemed to be quite a few people who practice bdsm, thought this might be a good place to ask a few questions. i hvae a some experience and there seem to be people around here who have alot. hope this isn't nosy, but guess you dont have to answer!

why do people like it? is it physical sensations? emotional connections? messing about psychological or societal positioning? does it intersect with intellectual positions you hold? or with therapeutic/self-actualisation stuff? because its naughty?

i'm assuming the primary answer is that it makes you feel damn good, but why?

are there different implications depending on whether the participants are f/f(f) or m/m or m/f?

eg i've heard it said that m/f BDSM can be a way of attacking/making apparent the inequalities in power relations bewtween the sexes/ of foregrounding how this is already there in all sex. but it strikes me as a little naive to think that just because you've noticed it and are acting it out consensually, you've beaten it, or that you've escaped reinscribing the
norm?

or that the master/slave discourse is commonly used, which makes me nervous as it racial implications which i imagine don't mean much to alot of people but are very serious things to be playing with? this from experience, something a partner of mine raised, reallly shocked me and made me take a look at this scene.

i'm not trying to attack anyone, as i say, i do this stuff myself, its more that i assume other people have come up against these issues and as there seem to be alot of bright and groovy folk round here, i'd like to know how you dealt with them?

[ 17-08-2001: Message edited by: hoopla ]
 
 
fuckbaked
13:09 / 17.08.01
oh and as i thought people might appreciate the possibility of anonymity, the password to this suit is

pervert
 
 
deletia
08:35 / 20.08.01
Deleted lest the ironically challenged find themselves stirred to unseemly agitation.

Too late.

However, point stands. A lot of bdsm seems to reinforce heteronormative principles through a kind of Fauvist pantomime. Is there really anything transgressive about a man beating and humiliating a woman before and during sex, or is it just the societally sanctioned interrelationship writ large?
 
 
Ganesh
08:35 / 20.08.01
As far as I'm aware, male-dom hetero BDSM is very much in the minority.

I think the degree to which any sexual act is 'transgressive' ultimately relates more to the inner 'rules' of the individuals concerned than to outside, 'objective' interpretations. Knowing how those concerned 'code' the ritual is paramount to understanding it.

Sexual fantasy can't be policed, and more usually draws power from being taboo. That's often the point.

Speaking for myself (m/m but would probably enjoy f/m BDSM more than m/m 'vanilla'), I'm attracted to the physical sensations and the mindstates that can be induced by a really good session. I really like bondage and sensory deprivation but am not especially fond of pain (although I do get a kick out of causing it if I know my partner's enjoying it). It's hard to articulate, but I think I'm turned on by the struggle, the physical and mental wrestling that ends (if I have my way) in my being subdued - and at my partner's mercy. Kidnap fantasies are a biggie.

The stuff I do tends not to have any particular 'ritual' attached, but I do like leather, boots, uniforms and the trappings of power, so I guess that, on some level, I'm reflecting a power interface/relationship within society generally - but not consciously.

I don't think my enjoyment of BDSM conflicts to any major degree with 'intellectual' views, but I do sometimes have difficulty initiating a session, so perhaps there's a degree of unconscious resistance there. Certainly, in my career, I'm used to being a decision-maker and carrying a fair amount of responsibility (which I don't particularly like; I don't think I'm a 'natural leader'), so it's actually quite relaxing to be 'forced' into a situation where I'm unable to call the shots. Can be quite cathartic afterwards, too.

Those are my initial thoughts on the subject. I'll doubtless return to this thread...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
12:53 / 20.08.01
Wow, interesting questions.

I think I agree with Nesh about the personalities/priorities of the two individuals being a major part of the dynamic, this determining their own version of the 'ritual'.

One thing that occurs to me, is that there's a great deal of tenderness mixed in with BDSM in my experience (f/f and f/m )

Topping someone involves utter control over them, which shades very easily into a feeling of being utterly responsible for them. They've literally put themself in your hands and you could completely break them, even kill them in some scenes.

The care surfaces in the way that you put a lot of thought and effort into hurting (whether physically/psychologically/a mixture etc)/dominating them, because they've asked you to, and at the same time are utterly conscious of their wellbeing, whether during a scene or reassuring them afterwards.

This is where I think a sidestepping/melting, if not stricly a subversion, of the 'societally sanctioned' m/f relationship that Hause describes might occur. Not neccessarily, but the potential is there to do strange things with desire and tenderness, which might work against the apparent orthodoxy of the m=dom, f=sub position? Agree though if you're thinking in these terms, it's a risky positioning to take on, is really likely to 'settle' back into/play on the normal power relation.

It's a very responsible position to be in, I've personally found that one of the things I've learnt with experience is to say no to a topping request from a sub if I don't think I've got the physical/emotional/mental resources to do it properly and carefully/safely. It's something taht's taken very seriously in my experience. And should be.

Does that make sense? But the misgivings you raise are things that I've thought about alot, and haven't really come to many firm conclusions.

Another point, which Nesh raised, is the attraction of the taboo, and what constitutes a scary/exciting taboo is in some cases extremely contextual.

For example I suspect personally, being a sub, has a taboo thrill (if not an actual effect) due to having been brought up a good little feminist grrrl. Due to this and various things in adult life I have a real aversion to depending on people, not being independent. In which context being utterly subservient, particuarly to a man, feels really wrong. And therefore good.

Rambling now but hope this is helpful.
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:28 / 21.08.01
Who's going to do the "Nobody asks why 'straight sex' feels good" speech?

We're horny, we fuck. Oh my god, sex has something to do with social relations, hold the front page.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:28 / 21.08.01
My gut reaction to this thread, since I don't have the focus to actually answer each question at length one by one (and anyhow you'd all be bored to tears by the end of it, darlings: sex really is the most banal thing in the world) is to say, I just do it. I don't really care anymore what it means about my childhood or how I fit into the heterosexual matrix or the queer-as-fuck gentry.

But I must point out that actually, m/f BDSM whre the boy is always the dominant is actually quite popular amongst a certain group of people, which is where Gor comes in. I don't really get Gor, but I understand that some of the practitioners would get very offended if you suggested that women could be dominant in any way, shape or form. Then again, if you live your life according to some trashy science fiction novel, you're likely to espouse some weirdass beliefs.

That's a thought: Gorean BDSM as a kind of intertextual, lived form of fanfiction. Christ.

And as for Master/slave relationships and the connection to real, lived experiences of slavery, I'm not sure. I think there is an assumption made in the BDSM community a lot of the time that 'people' who practice BDSM are the kind of people who don't have to deal with hat level of 'reminder' of oppression -- ie, lots of BDSM texts assume that BDSMers are white and liberated and in some kind of middle-class limbo. Then again, lots and lots of BDSM texts don't make that assumption.

hoopla, there's a really good essay by Jewelle Gomez about this stuff. She's a writer and poet and dyke of colour who has also written a lot about feminism and sex-positive sexuality, and the contradictions/complexities of being a woman of colour who is into SM. I can't quite remember where I found it; she's released a book of essays called '43 Septembers' but I don't *think* it's in that volume. It's possibly in a book called 'Butch/Femme: Inside Lesbian Gender' edited by Sally Munt, or in a collection of essays about femme-ness, name of which I don't remember.
 
 
SMS
09:28 / 21.08.01
What's the "BD" in BDSM? I'm assuming the SM is sado-masochism.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:28 / 21.08.01
'BDSM' is a conglomeration of bondage and discipline (B/D), dominance/submission (D/S) and sadomasochism (S/M). Thus, BDSM. In short.

You can probably find more on the web about the differences betyweenm all of these groupings... BD for example is generally referred to most in professional domimance situations, it's something you pay for. Well, often. D/S doesn't have to include any pain-play at all. SM is obviously for hardier vegetables. Of course, BDSM doesn't include 'fetish', or 'leather/rubber' communities who tend to like the dressing-up part of it more than the actual sex bit. Then again, what would I know?
 
 
Ganesh
09:28 / 21.08.01
I've come across the Gorean variant once or twice, but have never actually met anyone who practised it (as opposed to read the iffy novels and done online stuff); I guess that's one example of a BDSM subgroup espousing an entire philosophy (men are inherently superior, women are 'naturally' property) rather than a more individual interpretation.

I certainly remember spending hours of my adolescence standing in bookshops skimreading John Norman's stuff for the rare 'male capture' bits, though...
 
 
Whisky Priestess
10:13 / 21.08.01
I wonder whether the extremism enacted in BDSM (rape fantasies, kidnap/torture fantasies) aren;t cathartic in the way that watching films with guns and big explosions is cathartic (and exciting).

I think it was - er um - Aristotle or somebody writing on theatre who said it was cathartic and performative both for audience and actor - more so than actors (Brando/De Niro excepted) BDSMers live the part.

We all want passion and excitement and desperate, thrilling situations in our lives and alas, there is little we can do to arrange it except do extreme sports and extreme sex. BDSM as the emotional/sexual equivalent of bungee jumping? I like that. But seriously - perhaps a BDSM role-play is trying to recapture the banal thrill of having sex with somebody for the first time: there is an excitement, a sense of existential authenticity to it, that is hard to recreate, primal and powerful, perhaps like falling in love.

Hm. I guess us vanilla types just do the same old thing to new people rather than the other way around. I have to say I prefer the experience of being myself with my darlin' during sex rather than playing Jennifer Lopez to his George Clooney.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:20 / 21.08.01
I think it's a bit of a mistake to suppose that BDSM play involves less "being oneself" than any other kind of sex, surely. The characteristics/attributes that you take on when being a dom or a sub, and the fantasies/realities you construct, come from the minds and desires of the people involved, and are thus just as much as much an inherent part of who you are (or not: see the thread about media/society influence on our sexual identities from a while) as any other sexual impulse.
 
 
Ganesh
21:59 / 21.08.01
Yeah, I think the 'bad action movie' analogy would only hold if the process of acting were fuelled by intense sexual arousal rather than, erm, money.
 
 
Tom Coates
09:40 / 22.05.05
In an attempt to see if the attitude of the board has changed over the four years since this thread started I thought I'd reintroduce it. Has anyone's position changed? Has age made us dirtier or more restrained? Has there been any movement in theoretical positions around BDSM.
 
 
*
15:17 / 22.05.05
I missed this thread by about a year the first time it came around, so I'm glad you reintroduced it, Tom.

What I like about BDSM is its ability (for me) to "get at" the emotions connected with intimacy in a bigger, bolder, and more vivid way than other forms of intimacy. This has a large component of psychodrama to it, in that by making the emotions I associate with intimacy hyperreal, I can explore them more easily and to a greater depth. The particular emotions I enjoy experiencing this way are dependency, trust, fear, strength/resistance, and submission (in the sense of stepping out of the way and letting things happen, as well as in the sense of being humble before someone whom I have given a greater status than myself). I prefer bottoming, but when I top, I enjoy feeling capable and trustworthy. It is an immensely humbling experience to be trusted with another person's well-being in that way, and that is also something I like about BDSM.

I think this leads into self-actualisation, because by exploring these psychological phenomena writ large, if I see something that is a problem with how I react, I can change it or refine it. Exploring BDSM has given me more power over myself and my own life. For example, it has helped me come to the realization that I have a right and a responsibility to ask for what I want, and to communicate my needs clearly with my partners. I could have internalized that lesson in some other way, but it so happens that BDSM worked well for me.

BDSM overlaps with sacred sex and ritual for me as well.

I'm pretty doubtful of the claim that BDSM, in and of itself, supports the dominant heteropatriachy. It can be used as a tool that way, sure, just as non BDSM sex can be used as a tool that way, but I'm similarly skeptical of the claim that all PiV sex is rape. The stereotypical dominant is a powerful femme woman, in the circles I've traveled.

BDSM can also be an alternative means of sexual expression for people who are ambivalent about using their genitals (or want to do other kinds of sexual things than use their bits). That's an important path of empowerment for some folks, including trans folk and some survivors. (Many survivors would prefer to never have anything to do with BDSM. Obviously that is a valid choice. I wanted to emphasize that not all survivors who choose to engage in BDSM activities do so in order to reenact abuse, which seems to be a claim many anti-BDSM people make; for some, it may have to do with avoiding genital sex, which might be more triggering to them than other kinds of sexual activity.)
 
 
LykeX
16:07 / 22.05.05
I'm having some trouble finding the right words, so excuse me if this seems a little fragmented.
I don't have any direct experience with BDSM, but some time ago I did have the eye-opening and slightly scary realization that I in fact rather enjoy pornography which depicts non-consensual sex.
It worried me for some time, but I have since concluded that as long as I don't actually do it, I'm ok.

I did notice something peculiar that I'd like to get some feedback on. I find that sometimes while engaging in a rape fantasy, I slip into the female role, that is, I imagine myself as the female being raped. A rather strange, but definitely enjoyable feeling.
I wonder if the deportation of myself into the role of the female is somehow an attempt to shield against subconscious guilt. After all, if I'm the victim, I have nothing to feel guilty about, whereas if I'm in the aggressive role, I might.

I'd like to know if anyone else has had similar experiences of swapping gender. (sorry if this is slightly off-topic)
 
 
lord henry strikes back
21:57 / 24.05.05
LykeX, rape fantasies are not really my thing, so as to your suggestion of gender swapping as guilt alleviation I cannot comment. However, the basic idea of gender swapping during sexual fantasies is something I definately get. Whilst playing out sexual situations in my head I do sometimes jump into the female role, and I even have entire fantasies as a woman. I have no desire to change gender, and as some of you may know I have a long term female partner who also posts on the 'lith. I have a slight interest in men, but for the most part I would identify as straight (for want of a better term). The thing is that when I do have fantasies as a woman it is not some male lesbian wet dream, it is me (as a woman) with a man/men.

Sorry if I have dragged this thread totally of topic, but I feel that LykeX raised a fair point and I wanted to address it.
 
 
Morpheus
05:32 / 25.05.05
Not to say that I am any sort of great source of wisdom on this subject, but to qualify, I did run a dungeon in L.A. for about two months and have gotten to know a girl who runs another one their and we would chit chat about various things, and I would have to agree with alot that has been said already. Most people want to do things that arouse them in a way that isn't basically normal. They are excited in a truely sensual way that most often has nothing to do with their own normal sexual practice. In fact we didn't allow sex...it's a law here. The money made it really a strange activity. Alot of men here were into the role reversal thing and basically playing dress-up and then being dominated...guilt is hot I guess. The concensus was, at least for men, there's much money in cock and ball torture. That just makes me laugh after awhile, I got some pleasure out of it. Never really turned me on. Love and sex are a lost art, that has much to do with it. People are just really confused and have no clue yet how to fuck. BDSM is a great theatre grotesque made for the tragicodramatic.
I mean getting in a car accident turns people on...at a point.
As far as the trade is concerned, it is not safe. The people who worked there were drug addicts, at least the better more professional ones, and they used to import other girls threw mexico from all kinds of war zones. Those girls were shakey at best. Most of them had trauma in their past and the whole thing was unbelievably out of control and not good...at all. Not to say that it isn't different in other places and other situations.
Try explaining to a young girl from Kosovo that she can't jerk the guy off if he gives her more money...not going to happen.
 
 
stml
12:09 / 25.05.05
One of my favourite thoughts on BDSM in general, badly remembered from Anita Phillips' excellent A Defence of Masochism is that BDSM has the capacity "to extend sex beyond the genitocentric, to make the entire body the surface on which we write our desires".
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:41 / 25.05.05
Alot of men here were into the role reversal thing and basically playing dress-up and then being dominated...guilt is hot I guess.

What led you to the conclusion that a desire to wear certain clothes and be dominated was the result of guilt, in these cases? Are you open to the possibility that the same desires do not necessarily arise as the result of guilt?

Love and sex are a lost art, that has much to do with it. People are just really confused and have no clue yet how to fuck. BDSM is a great theatre grotesque made for the tragicodramatic.

I don't even know what that last sentence means, but you seem to be implying that there is a more 'natural' way of having sex (more closely or naturally tied to love?) that has been lost - as if BDSM were a poor, debased substitute for the 'real' thing. This is an insulting and ill-founded belief which I would advise you to reconsider.
 
 
Ganesh
22:16 / 25.05.05
Most people want to do things that arouse them in a way that isn't basically normal

Assuming you mean most people in the dungeon you managed (if it were most people generally, then by definition it would be "normal", statistically speaking). By "basically normal", are you talking penetrative penis-meets-vagina, or what?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:38 / 25.05.05
Mod Hat: Morpheus seems to be conflating the ideas of BDSM with the fact that he (assumign he is telling the truth) ran an institution which exploited women shipped in from Eastern Europe. One of these is about BDSM. The other is about prostitution and, loathsome though the exploitation of these girls might have been, it seems primarily about capitalism rather than BDSM.

Sooo... yeah. If "most people" want something "abnormal", in what sense is it actually abnormal?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:50 / 25.05.05
Uhhh, yeah. Morpheus, I'm not calling your veracity into question here, but I have actually met quite a few people who "run dungeons" and your experience does seem atypical, to put it mildly. I would second the BDSM versus capitalism point; I very much doubt that the "young girl from Kosovo" is actually a Domme in any sense. She's a vulnerable young person driven to perform in a role that is probably completely alien to her. Real, functional, professional Dommes I've met are doing what they love; and boy, do the people respond.
 
 
lord henry strikes back
23:18 / 25.05.05
Love and sex are a lost art, that has much to do with it. People are just really confused and have no clue yet how to fuck.

I admit that I have no experience of BDSM and what little knowledge I have comes from reading, both on this thread and wider on the web. Also I do not mean this to be an explanation of what Morpheus meant, but simply what came into my head when I read the above.

I think that the arguement can be made that we have been programmed as to how we look at sex. I do not so much mean by porn as by Gap ads and Demi Moore films. There is so much imagery built up around vanilla sex that it defines what many people are aiming for. If your partner does not make that sound, or give you that look, then you got something wrong. It does not matter what it felt like, you've seen it more than you've done it, and it didn't live up. By engaging in sex acts that have yet to be coopted by mainstream media it could be argued that you free yourself from this weight of comparison and so are more able to enjoy the act for itself, directly, rather than on a once removed level.

I would be very interested to know what those with more experience than I think about this.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
05:47 / 26.05.05
"By engaging in sex acts that have yet to be coopted by mainstream media it could be argued that you free yourself from this weight of comparison and so are more able to enjoy the act for itself, directly, rather than on a once removed level."

A caveat to what I'm about to say: I generally just don't much enjoy sex without some form of pain, power play etc. But I'd question the assumption that BDSM has yet to be co-opted by 'mainstream' media, or that BDSM can be an unmediated form of sexual epxerienec in comparison to extra-mediated and ideologically-laden vanilla sex. (About mainstream media: I've been watching the introduction of BDSM into a Desperate Housewives plot with interest. Especially because it involves the hott Marcia Cross possibly on the verge of realising her anal-retentive housewife act is just a sublimation of her inner Domme Bitch. Unfortunately it seems the writers have decided she must top her philandering husband as a form of reluctant/bewildered marital service, without gaining any pleasure from it at all. *sigh*)

BDSM is just as mediated a form of interaction as any sexual practice: it's just that the mediations -- significations, sensations, ways of reading and working bodies? -- are different.

Reflecting back on the thread, I think I've actually changed my mind about BDSM somewhat since 2001. I went through a pretty intense experience that made me (forced me ) to re-evaluate what it meant and how it could work for me -- and in the process I had to let go of the idea that 'kinky sex is just kinky sex and people just do it cuz they do.' This probably intersects with returning to psychoanalysis as a tool of figuring stuff out, rather than the extreme-immanence kick I was on in 2001 from reading a lot of Deleuze and Guattari.

So, I think BDSM can be lots of things, and can intersect with 'external' power relations, ie gender roles or the breaking apart of them; and it can intersect dangerously but sometimes amazingly with relations between individuals and the whole gamut of expectations/desires/needs/neuroses individuals bring to relationships. Most of all it's about risk and vulnerability -- both for tops and bottoms, I think -- but isn't the best sex, or the best intimacy, also about this?
 
 
Mirror
13:46 / 27.05.05
I think that I can speak somewhat to the appeal of the m-dom/f-sub relationship.

At least for me, the allure of this sort of sex play definitely lies in the reversal of power roles. In modern society, I think that the female ordinarily has the controlling role in sexual relationships since she has the power of granting or withholding consent. At least, that's what it felt like when I was in the dating scene. Male-dominant BSDM is a simple reversal of this power dynamic - by submitting to bondage, etc. the female is symbolically (and effectively) giving up her power to withold consent for sex. From the male perspective, the sense of not having to gain consent for his actions is extremely liberating.

This plays around the edges of rape-fantasy a little bit but doesn't quite go so far - it's more about the consent of the sub to give up the power to withhold consent; meta-consent if you will.
 
 
Ex
14:10 / 27.05.05
BDSM has the capacity "to extend sex beyond the genitocentric, to make the entire body the surface on which we write our desires".

Nice quote. And I’m all for most things that demonstrate that sex doesn’t have to be hide-the-penis-in-the-lady. And that other areas of the body are erotic, and that there are many possible ‘stories’ for sex.

However, I'm not sure about the cause and effect, here - and it's a tension that's been cropping up in a lot of contributions to this thread. So I thought I'd use this example to consider it at more length.

The obsessive focus on two different sets of genitals, and popping one in the other, could be seen as causing some other odd assumptions (it doesn’t count as sex because there wasn't a penis involved, it doesn’t count as cheating because she did it with a girl and that’s not really sex, it doesn’t count as a relationship because they’re both girls and girls can’t really have sex, and so forth).
But you can equally see all of these as outcomes of a far deeper heterosexism which shapes how we experience our bodies. So if we take those bodies and poke them in interesting new ways, it may not necessarily lead to anything except pleasurable squirming.

I agree with Patrick Califia that you can’t ‘fuck your way to freedom’. I suspect that either we could all start having kinky sex tommorrow without power relations in society really being adjusted, or sexism, racism, capitalist exploitation and a bunch of other stuff could be sorted out without anyone whipping out the handcuffs

So I try not to attribute utopian possibilities to BDSM -Mr Disco performs an exemplary elegant interrogation, above. Although I think BDSM may be useful in some ways(rather like lord henry wotton, also above).

Partly the problem is that 'liberation' is an easy political jump to make from any unusual sex act, because sex has been used as the finest example of oppression and liberation. I think we need a more nuanced idea of considering and tinkering with the way sex is structured, rather than thinking we can get outside the structure and back to some 'real' unmediated fab sex.
 
 
Ex
14:24 / 27.05.05
In modern society, I think that the female ordinarily has the controlling role in sexual relationships since she has the power of granting or withholding consent.

I see your point, but I think that this is a somewhat odd idea. Do you mean socially, or sexually? I agree that it's unfair that chaps are disproportionately expected to do the asking-for-dates, and the like. And I can see that D/S might be pleasurable for these reasons for anyone who has experienced angst and knock-backs in dating and relationships (so, most people who've had relationships, probably).

However, your argument generally only true if either:
- there is some magical way that women can persuade unwilling chaps to either date them, or sex them
or
- all men want sex all the time

Because men consent too. Or don't. And women, conversely, also have active power to ask people out, woo, and initiate sex, not just to withhold it or permit it to the panting chaps.

I'm a bit touchy on the idea that women alone hold the power of veto, as I've seen it used to very dodgy ends in discussion on sexual assault. And I've also seen a lot of bewildered blokes who don't know why they feel unhappy about sexual attention that has been unwelcome - because they think of themselves as masculine, and thus always up for sex.

My apologies if you're moving in a particularly rigid dating scene, where everyone follows The Rules.
 
 
Mirror
16:02 / 27.05.05
Because men consent too. Or don't. And women, conversely, also have active power to ask people out, woo, and initiate sex, not just to withhold it or permit it to the panting chaps.

Clearly, but again I'm speaking from personal experience. For a lot of my teenage years and early adulthood it seemed desperately difficult to get anyone into the sack (or even out on a date) - particularly the girls I found most interesting. Whatever the reasons for this were, my experience in romantic relationships was always frustratingly subservient to the female whim.

I don't think that this is a particularly unique experience, either. Until you reach a certain age, it's fucking difficult for geeks (of either sex) to get any.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:46 / 27.05.05
Whatever the reasons for this were, my experience in romantic relationships was always frustratingly subservient to the female whim.

I'm assuming there were any, but what about women who might have wanted to have sex with you to whom you were not attracted? Was that your male whim? I think that writing off "not wanting to have sex with me" as a "whim" is pretty dodgy, especially if the logical response is to tie them up and gag them so that the possibility of rejection has already been negotiated out of the situation - BDSM can certainly function recuperatively, but if the objective is to get some form of commutative revenge on the women who declined to have sex with you I'm not sure that is recuperative...

Consent is an interesting question - for example, there is the idea that one might be having sex with someone who has agreed not to tell you to stop as long as their comfort boundaries are not infringed - but might that not apply to any sexual act, it being only a question of where those boundaries are? That leads on to the question of how wanting to perpetuate/enhance the scene interacts with the decision to terminate it...
 
 
Ex
22:11 / 27.05.05
Whatever the reasons for this were, my experience in romantic relationships was always frustratingly subservient to the female whim.

I think you're quite right, it's not unique. People one fancies who don't want to have sex with you, and people following you around who you don't fancy. I'm a lady. It works that way for me. If I were a straight lady I might assume that blokes were toying with me, but thanks to my scattergun chat-up techniques, I've also been rejected by ladies; possibly that's made it more clear to me that sexual rejection isn't the preserve of either gender.

And I can see that role play that involves overpowering someone could be tapping into big deep fears of rejection. I've also seen one feminist commentator suggesting that male fantasies of overpowering ladies are products not of misogyny but of converse fears - that chaps are expected to be sexually ever-ready, and insatiable, and in reality, they aren't. The idea of being an unstoppable sex machine is thereof a comforting myth. Which rather brings us back to the cultural myth of chaps wanting sex and women whimming all over them.
Wouldn't it be just divine if the cultural myths that were creating disastrous dating were then converted into stylised sexual scenarios to try to alleviate the personal damage caused by them...
 
 
fuckbaked
22:16 / 27.05.05
"Until you reach a certain age, it's fucking difficult for geeks (of either sex) to get any."

What age is that, exactly?
 
 
Mirror
23:21 / 27.05.05
I'm assuming there were any, but what about women who might have wanted to have sex with you to whom you were not attracted? Was that your male whim?

If such ladies existed, I was at best unaware of them. This is possible, but in any case I think it misses the point: I find it to be morally wrong to have coercion (of whatever sort) in a sexual relationship. Consent is necessary, and so the symbolic abandonment of the ability to dissent is transgressive and erotic. As has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, there's a major aspect of trust granted by the sub to the dom, and being the recipient of such trust is exciting.

I think that writing off "not wanting to have sex with me" as a "whim" is pretty dodgy, especially if the logical response is to tie them up and gag them so theat the possibility of rejection has already been negotiated out of the situation - BDSM can certainly function recuperatively, but if the person is to get some form of commutative revenge on the women who declined to have sex with you I'm not sure that is recuperative...

Whoa, that goes a bit beyond what I was talking about. I don't really consider "whim" to be that loaded a term, and I don't consider BDSM to be "recuperative" in my case at all - it's much more about the psychological allure surrounding the notion of consent and the willingness to abandon consent. Also, I don't think that the possibility of rejection is ever really negotiated out of the equation (you still have safewords/signals) but one can still have a satisfying fantasy of such.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:06 / 28.05.05
Consent is necessary, and so the symbolic abandonment of the ability to dissent is transgressive and erotic.

Which makes perfect sense, but in that case what does how much sex you had in your late teens and early twenties have to do with it? Either your excitement at the symbolic removal of the ability to refuse consent is to do with that, or it isn't. Having first said that it was, you appear now to be saying that it isn't. I think either position, or both, makes perfect sense, but what is it. Is it exciting because the pretended act of non-consensual sex (which has been consented to) is transgressive, or because the necessity of obtaining consent has in your previous life been something which you feel was holding you back from getting things you wanted (sex, love, intimacy, dates, say), and thus it is therapeutic now to act out scenarios were consent is either removed, or deferred (the trust thing, to an extent - this person trusts me so much she will allow me to put her in a situation where she could, theoretically, not stop me from having sex with her, although of course more broadly she could, because mutual respect now functions to control what happens when instead of the apparently whimsical provision or removal of consent that you get with people you don't have that relationship of mutual respect with).

Point being, I guess, that experiences create feelings - despite high-power geekishness, I had a fair amount of sex during the period you describe, which had its own consequnces, some of which have subsequently been worked out orr have resurfaced in the way I experience sex (and also love, and for that matter work and life). I think that's probably the same for everyone, BDSM or not-BDSM...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
15:54 / 28.05.05
I think once money changes hands in a sexual situation, an element of feeling *dirty,* if not guilt-stricken exactly, is going to come into play.

As far as the 'not safe' thing goes, in terms of the trade, from what little I know of it I'd have to agree. A friend of mine was involved in that for a bit, and said it was fine up to a point ( ze would get hir slaves to do the washing-up and so on, while being paid a hundred an hour or whatever it was, ) until one of hir clients took it into his head to try and kill hir, at which point ze decided it was probably time to leave the industry. And apparently there were a lot of drugs ( crystal meth, angel dust etc, so not perhaps arguably the fluffier end of the spectrum, ) flying around. A rough business, in other words.
 
  

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