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Feminism and the scientific method

 
  

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The Monkey
19:50 / 19.07.02
ynh - no, the scientific method does not catch all of the ramifications of a single finding, but what system does have that capacity yet still is capable of case-by-case problem solving?
 
 
YNH
23:14 / 19.07.02
A different one? Or a modified one?

If it fails, shouldn't it be revised? Isn't that the idea?

Add some qualifiers to the method. Once one knows something is possible, evaluate whether it's practicable or, um, necrotizing. Don't artificially confine the data set. Forbid conclusions by those performing the data collection. Insitute a priori peer (or public) review of methodology.

These are just ideas, mind;

Still, it's troubling that otherwise vibrant inquisitive minds can so resolutely fail (or refuse) to interrogate this particular class of cultural assumptions.

It's also a sticking point that a feminist position is sometimes viewed as benefitting only women; and that objectivity continues to be assumed possible.
 
 
Thjatsi
03:07 / 20.07.02
Once one knows something is possible, evaluate whether it's practicable...

The problem with a good portion of basic research is that the practical outcomes are not easily noticable. Take the mathematician G H Hardy for example. He only worked in areas he believed wouldn't lead to technological or scientific advancements. However, we're currently using his work today in the study of Cryptography and Genetics. Even the most brilliant people can't always see the long-term practical applications of their own work.

Forbid conclusions by those performing the data collection.

Who should make the conclusions then? Should we randomly assign this task to people on the street? What happens when they lack the background information to integrate the findings with the field they relate to? Should the designated concluder write the discussion section of the article? Will this person receive credit for the work as well then?
 
 
YNH
04:33 / 20.07.02
To be clear: practicable, not practical.

Yr second comment is kind of silly. Do you have any idea how ineffectual that would be?
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:15 / 20.07.02
I think that Monkey has done a comprehensive job in his post above, so I'd like to concentrate on a single point.

I'm always intrigued by those keen to push the social construction of reality and their criticism of science for not adopting this position. I'm not sure if there is a misunderstanding, but this seems to miss the point. Yes, science makes a bold philosophical claim that it is possible to get oberver independent, objective if you will, data on the material world.

This is not an oversight, a case of scientists not realising that there are other ways of looking at the world. It is not naivety or lack of imagination. It is an assertion. It is at the heart of what science is about. The assertion being that by adopting this philosophical stance, one gets a deeper understanding of the processes involved in the functioning of the material world. The dismissal of science as having "failed", with the barest of nods to its accomplishments is almost dishonest in its oversight.

BTW - there are "scientists" who adopt more culturally dependent views of science. Scientists who believe that truth statements about the world can never really be objective due to the cultural positioning of the individual. Creationist scientists are such an example.

You probably think I'm deliberately choosing a negative example. My point is that most of the critique above is about the alleged objectivity and calls for the insertion of value systems in its stead. But whose value systems are best? Objectivity may be unattainable, but striving for it is proper in my view.

Still, it's troubling that otherwise vibrant inquisitive minds can so resolutely fail (or refuse) to interrogate this particular class of cultural assumptions. - ynh

I think you are confusing a considered decision with a failure to consider. I also believe in democracy, which has developed culturally, and is susceptible to most of the criticisms above. Is that automatically because I haven't though about it?
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:21 / 20.07.02
Monkey: I heartily agree with your point about gender assumptions. And I've long argued that nurture is vastly more important than nature in constructing these differences. But, and this isn't a rhetorical question, isn't there some evidence of actual difference?

I'm thinking, for instance, of the difference in certain portions of the brain the transexuals seem to exhibit.
 
 
The Monkey
20:08 / 20.07.02
To the best of my knowledge as of this moment, we know that there are neurological activation differences - as measured by active-imaging devices such as MRI, CAT, and PET - in men and women, and also activation differences between sexual preferences and gender-identification. It is also claimed that there are gross anatomical differences in neuroanatomy...if I recall correctly in the midbrain regions...that may shed light on the "hard-wiring" of sexual preference and gender-identifcation. The Fischer-Price version is that that there are parts of the brain that are gendered (in terms of activational processes such as sexual attraction, self-body image).
What has not been determined is how these activation-region differences effect behavior and cognitive "style." Furthermore, as research done with adult subjects, there remains the issue that nuture impacts brain-action processes.

Finally, and this one is more a stickler, consider that in spite of tendency to segement the brain into functional ghettoes, sentience and the cognitive process exists in the looping ganglion networks that run willy-nilly across those regional boundaries. Furthermore, those ganglion networks are not in place at birth, but rather are formed during early development.
 
 
Thjatsi
23:28 / 20.07.02
To be clear: practicable, not practical.

If you're using practicable to mean useful or feasible, and I'm using practical to mean useful or feasible, then what's the problem?

Yr second comment is kind of silly. Do you have any idea how ineffectual that would be?

Perhaps we're talking about two completely different things then. Could you please explain your concept in more detail, in order to clear up any misunderstandings?
 
 
w1rebaby
01:14 / 21.07.02
Persephone: Then on the other hand, what is the relation between the scientific method and untestable hypotheses? No relation? I don't think so. After all, the scientific method is that which divides hypotheses into testable and untestable; the scientific method, in a sense, created "untestable" hypotheses. And testable hypotheses. Untestable hypotheses are not friendly to the scientific method, and I believe that science returns the favor by being hostile back. And what that has to do with men and women I only have a feeling about, which is just like me.

Are you objecting to the abstract concept of testability, i.e. that a hypothesis has to pass some sort of examination before we consider it reasonable, or just to the "scientific method" concept of testability?
 
 
Persephone
02:37 / 21.07.02
Ah, shit. Um.

Well, I'm not objecting to anything. Just picking up the thing and looking at it.

I mean, the question in this thread is "What does feminism have to say about the scientific method?" And the implication is sort of that feminism has nothing to say? Because the scientific method is sui generis, somehow? And if there's one thing that feminism could say, it's that everybody's got a momma. And saying that the scientific method's got a momma isn't saying that it's not valid, which I think is not the question of this thread.

Feminism also has something to say about thinking that saying you've got a momma means saying that you're not valid...
 
 
Cat Chant
07:19 / 21.07.02
Oh, God. Can someone who knows their Donna Haraway a bit better than me pick this one up? I haven't managed to read this whole thread yet, but from the early post I must say that OJOH, your idea of what constitutes the feminist project seems to be limited to liberal white middle-class Anglo-American "second wave" feminism. (Sorry, since some wanker was talking about "feminism's dismissal of Freud" in the Guardian I'm slightly touchy about this. If I referred to all forms of non-feminist thought, from Dadaism to Platonic metaphysics, as a singular, self-identical "masculinism", people would think I was a fucking idiot, surely? Ahem.) I was mostly thinking of Haraway and Butler anyway, since part of what the scientific method does is *define its objects* - eg in pretending that sexual dimorphism is "natural", prediscursive/precultural, whereas gender as the expression of sexual dimorphism is the cultural bit. However, that very division is itself suspect and a rich field for feminist intervention showing how casting "sex" as "natural" is actually an effect of cultural systems of compulsory heterosexuality.

There are all sorts of assumptions about truth, progress, and the relation to the material going on under 'the scientific method' which poses as self-evident, transparent, and ahistorical. Such assumptions have been intervened in by any number of feminisms, as well as by Marxist thinkers going all the way back to the Frankfurt School and the ass-kickingly gorgeous Walter Benjamin, and probably a bunch of other people as well.

More later when I actually manage to read this (sorry, bad moderator.)
 
 
w1rebaby
10:18 / 21.07.02
I think that it would probably be more useful to get some sort of idea about what, if anything, "feminism" has to say about the scientific method rather than the scientific establishment, before we start analysing it. I must admit that I'm not entirely clear on that either and I've just been trying to go over things and scratch at points.

Persephone:
And if there's one thing that feminism could say, it's that everybody's got a momma. And saying that the scientific method's got a momma isn't saying that it's not valid, which I think is not the question of this thread.

To ask a possibly silly question, I take it you're meaning that a feminist examination of the SM is one that takes into account its sociological origins as a philosophy, and particularly those aspects relating to gender?

deva:
part of what the scientific method does is *define its objects* - eg in pretending that sexual dimorphism is "natural", prediscursive/precultural, whereas gender as the expression of sexual dimorphism is the cultural bit. However, that very division is itself suspect and a rich field for feminist intervention showing how casting "sex" as "natural" is actually an effect of cultural systems of compulsory heterosexual.

The SM may require defined objects to work, but it doesn't require you to take any particular view, or cast anything as "natural". The division may well be suspect but it's not a necessary result of the SM.
 
 
YNH
22:39 / 21.07.02
This part of what you’re looking for, Deva?
“[N]o insider’s perspective is privileged, because all drawings of inside-outside boundaries in knowledge are theorized as power moves, not moves towards truth. …They tell parables about objectivity and scientific method to students in the first years of their initiation, but no practitioner of the high scientific arts would be caught dead acting on the textbook versions. Social constructionists make clear that official ideologies about objectivity and scientific method are particularly bad guides to how scientific knowledge is actually made. Just as for the rest of us, what scientists believe or say they do and what they really do have a very loose fit.
The only people who end up actually believing and… acting on the ideological doctrines of disembodied scientific objectivity and scientific objectivity enshrined in elementary textbooks and technoscience booster literature are non-scientists, including a few very trusting philosophers.”
-Haraway: Simians, Cyborgs, and Women, 184

What one misses when one confronts Deva vis-à-vis Haraway and the objectification of truth and/or nature without actually reading some background or investing, at least temporarily, in the idea is that the scientific method itself has been objectified, enshrined as natural; and that it’s a blind, empty signifier that is (not can be) deployed in situations where the ethics of an inquiry might be questionable at best.

More 101 stuff: I’d call it a considered decision when the individual making the statement displayed some evidence of said consideration is all; or better still, a willingness to engage said process again.

It would be practical to consume our dead. However, due to certain other factors, such a course of action is not practicable. I’m not suggesting the applications of any unit information are not obvious; I’m suggesting that even when they are, those applications might not be in our overall best interests.
 
 
Persephone
01:31 / 22.07.02
so sleepy...

Yesh, fridge. A possible feminist examination. An untestable feminist examination. There it is. I just made it up for the occasion, though. Origins, yes. Sociological, psychological, just plain logical. About the scientific method soi-meme. If the scientific method is saying that it's "just there" and that feminism has nothing to say in its regard, then the first response --ha, get it? First Response-- is going to be that feminism certainly has something to say and that the scientific method certainly isn't "just there." And that's a lot of work cut out just there. Just the idea that it comes from somewhere, before you get to where it comes from.
 
 
Cat Chant
06:42 / 22.07.02
Oh, God, I wish I'd been following this more closely from the start, am having trouble catching up. Thanks for the Haraway quote, ynh, which I'll respond to once I've managed to follow the thread a bit better: yes, I suspect that is what I want to say.

Firstly, I want to say that many, many feminisms do not believe that there are, ontologically, "men" and "women" in the world, hence any argument about whether "men" and "women" think differently is scientifically/ontologically invalid and per se non-feminist (or non-this-kind-of-feminist).

But really, I guess the point I want to make is this, spinning off from the question - I suspect meant rhetorically - "does feminism have anything to say about logic?", which of course reminded me of phallogocentrism, about which, of course, feminism and other discourses/philosophical traditions have a great deal to say...

So the point is, maybe, put too pithily to make much sense, that logic is the ideal, phallogocentrism is the practice: and that the ideal, which has no "real" ontological status, is advanced to justify the practice, rather than being logically prior to it and determining all scientific investigation/methodology. So yes, ideally the scientific method would be a way of making and verifying claims about entities and processes which are ontologically independent of cultural and historical contexts (eg gravity works downwards. Unless you live in Australia in which case it works upwards :P).

HOWEVER, since such claims are made and verified in writing, they also have to claim (a) a truth-value and (b) a transmissibility which are independent of socio-historico-political contexts and *also* of the medium by which they are transmitted. Sadly, as we know from Derrida, such a form of perfect, transparent transmission is rigorously impossible. Hence any philosophy which depends for its justification on the assumption that knowledge can be transmitted transparently across an "empty" medium which will not affect the content of the transmission, is suspect and operates on - phew, got there in the end - a phallogocentric logic: that is, a metaphysics of presence and ontological stability which a lot of feminists have begun deconstructing in the manner of Derrida.

More later. You betchour ass.
 
 
Cat Chant
09:17 / 22.07.02
Just quickly to add or clarify that the fact that "the scientific method" is not ontologically or logically prior to scientific practice means, I think, that it is difficult if not impossible - and certainly dodgy - to draw a distinction between "the scientific method", which is good and pure & true and lovely and gender-blind and objective and blah blah blah, and "the implementation of science" which is human, flawed, responsive to social pressures, blah blah blah.
 
 
some guy
10:53 / 22.07.02
Just quickly to add or clarify that the fact that "the scientific method" is not ontologically or logically prior to scientific practice means, I think, that it is difficult if not impossible - and certainly dodgy - to draw a distinction between "the scientific method", which is good and pure & true and lovely and gender-blind and objective and blah blah blah, and "the implementation of science" which is human, flawed, responsive to social pressures, blah blah blah.

No, it's not, as the upthread example of the child stepping on the tree branch demonstrates. The key thing to keep in mind here is that the scientific method does not carry with in an intrinsic value system. What it does - and the only thing it does - is give one a yes/no result to a question proposed under the strictest conditions. Any application or interpretation of the results is - as far as anyone has ever been able to determine - independent of the SM itself. Or to put it another way: Examples of flawed use of the SM do not themselves act as criticism of the SM.

We might recall what fridgemagnet suggested earlier: I think that it would probably be more useful to get some sort of idea about what, if anything, "feminism" has to say about the scientific method rather than the scientific establishment, before we start analysing it. There have been several musings here discussing the scientific establishment, but oddly few discussing the SM. Most of the posts purporting to discuss the latter are actually about the former...
 
 
alas
15:43 / 22.07.02
What it does - and the only thing it does - is give one a yes/no result to a question proposed under the strictest conditions. Any
application or interpretation of the results is - as far as anyone has ever been able to determine - independent of the SM itself. Or to put it another way: Examples of flawed
use of the SM do not themselves act as criticism of the SM.


The above statement actually to me encapsulates the crux of the different views here in the use of the scientific method as an agent, i.e., "it" gives a response to the question proposed under "strictest conditions." The use of agentless prose in traditional scientific lab writing contributes to the fiction that human beings aren't the ones doing the questioning, the creating of the "strict" environment, and working from the philosophical standpoint that the kind of miniaturization that lab work entails will result in useful knowledge. The "method" is created by culturally embedded humans. I like the upthread statement about good scientists being aware that their enterprise is based on an assumption of a specific philosophical stance. However, I still don't believe objectivity "exists" other than as a "useful" illusion, but not one which I believe is, in the long term and especially as the object of study comes in closer and closer to human endeavor, is particularly worth striving for. I believe taking
in, using, evaluating, multiple perspectives, however, is a much more useful perception from which to operate. But I'd argue that that's different from seeking "objectivity" which is a fantasy embedded in old Deisms--the replacement of God with Humans capable of attaining a God's eye view. I think most social-constructionist theories would, however, say that there's no there there, and feminists would particularly point out the patriarchal religious traditions that helped create that position. There's no God's eye view, because the God's eyeview--up in the sky, looking down on the worldor the experiment, take your pick, from an "objective" distance--is itself flawed and limiting.

Finally, I'm not arguing that the scientific method is "BAD," just that it is not "natural," does not exist outside culture, and is limited and it is potentially dangerous for persons to believe that it gives a kind of truth that is more Truth than any other.

And "Creation Scientists" actually, I'd argue, worship the power of scientific discourse in today's culture / the perceived ultimate rationality of science and the SM. Even though they start with the a priori assumption that their view of the Bible's message (e.g., that the world was created in 7 days about 3,000 years ago) will pass any scientific test they put it to, they pretend to be placing spiritual truth beneath scientific Truth (although most of the time they just drone on and on about how Darwin was wrong, Wrong, WRONGG!!). All of which suggests just how messed up an idea it is, to me. Hence, although I'm intrigued by how their thinking fits with the notion of the social construction of "reality," I do think it's all more complex than the earlier post suggests. In this context, in fact, the rhetorical placement of people who are arguing for a culturally-constructed reality in the same boat as Creation Scientists is a bit like comparing your opponent's position in ethical arguments to Hitler. It's too easy, generally unfair and primarily serves as a distracting ad hominem attack.
 
 
some guy
16:27 / 22.07.02
The "method" is created by culturally embedded humans.

But it's not, as the tree branch example demonstrates. The method exists independent of being able to identify it. The SM, when properly applied, does not produce subjective results; it produces objective results applicable to the narrowest of conditions. Naturally these results can then be interpreted in many ways and in accordance with many dogmas. But this doesn't change the objectivity of the SM itself. Again I would suggest that people here are conflating the SM with the scientific establishment, which is unhelpful and unfair.

But I'd argue that that's different from seeking "objectivity" which is a fantasy embedded in old Deisms--the replacement of God with Humans capable of attaining a God's eye view. I think most social-constructionist theories would, however, say that there's no there there, and feminists would particularly point out the patriarchal religious traditions that helped create that position.

But as the SM has no bearing on either of these paradigms, the speculation is pointless. The SM can only identify that steam rises. It has nothing to do with whether one then launches an industrial revolution.

Finally, I'm not arguing that the scientific method is "BAD," just that it is not "natural," does not exist outside culture

Animals use the SM, although naturally they wouldn't identify the behavior as such. It may be helpful to think of the SM as something akin to swimming. Different cultures call it different names, and animals don't call it anything. But everybody does it anyway.
 
 
Lurid Archive
18:18 / 22.07.02
There seems to be some disagreement as to what constitutes the scientific method. While ethics and a sociological analysis it's origins are valid objects of study, the SM is usually refers to a much narrower process.


1. Observe some aspect of the universe.
2. Invent a theory that is consistent with what you have observed.
3. Use the theory to make predictions.
4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations.
5. Modify the theory in the light of your results.
6. Go to step 3.

There is clearly room for bias to enter all these steps, and this is demonstrated by the existence of some very dodgy science. However, empirical reasoning sharpens scientific knowledge to an almost incredible degree. It is decidedly peculiar that this is not considered pertinent to the discussion.

Technology is the product of science and I think it is difficult to separate the material effectiveness and growth of technology from the scienctific ideas that support it. Technology produces effects that are not subject to cultural pressures. A bomb will blow you up whether or not you believe or are educated in the science used to design it. Of course, you might say that different people see technology in different ways, which is an excellent way to evade my point.

Thus, given a large element of observer independence in technology, it seems ayt least reasonable to think that scientific results are also, largely, observer independent. I think that to really counter this in any consistent manner, one has to argue a form of solipsism or extreme scepticism. These postions are as shallow as they are unanswerable.

Deva's post is interesting, as it is really a well argued piece on why science could never work. A priori, I think that this position is entirely reasonable, perhaps even more "natural", whatever that means. But to claim that the scientific method is so flawed doesn't sit well with the material success of science. Just luck? I'd probably say that science is not verified in writing, but by empirical testing. However, I'm getting the feeling that Deva considers all of reality to be textual so this wouldn't be a counter, but that position has it's own flaws.

Alas: I agree with your comment about the fetishisation of science, though I'd emphasise that it is a flag of convenience rather than an adopted philosophy. I think that creationists are entirely relevant, not because anyone here is sympathetic to them, but because the "inclusivity" in this discussion has implicity been assumed to be without flaw. If science should be more inclusive of other viewpoints, does that mean that creationists should get to argue their position in schools? Are ideologically driven truth claims about the world all equally valid and choosing between them a matter of taste? Or is "inclusivity" to include a political filter that would manage to weed out unpleasant ideologies?

You see, as a naive scientist, I think the weight of evidence is against creationism and more generally that making decisions through an empirical filter does not simply encode existent prejudice.
 
 
Polly Trotsky
18:42 / 22.07.02
The scientific method is natural - see recent posts by Lawrence and Lurid.

The scientific method is not natural - see recent posts by Deva and Persephone.

That human knowledge is constructed seems far more obvious than that it is not. Someone codified the steps of the scientific method. Someone wrote them down. Both/All likely did so under an assumption of objectivity.

A feminist position might suggest that such assumptions might have been incorrect. The same or another feminist position might seek to question "naturalness" altogether. Still others might view any or all human production as inextricably linked to to its socio-economic and historical-geographical context.

But by all means continue with the tennis match.
 
 
w1rebaby
18:43 / 22.07.02
deva: I can appreciate your point that the SM is not a priori true. It doesn't come out of nowhere, it was invented by people, just as much as any other method of determining what is "true" or not.

I would, however, be more interested in exploring elements of it that were dubious, contradictory or conflicted with other views. I've long taken an interest in the philosophy of science but I've had trouble, to be honest, finding objections to it that make sense. If it's a socially-derived idea that is not contradictory and to which there's no rational alternative then fine... but I have a feeling that there are people out there who don't just want to indicate that it's contingent, but that there are problems with it. That's the sort of thing I feel it would be most profitable to explore.

In some ways I think many of the precepts that it requires (e.g. "all observations are theory-laden", god, I can remember that one being hammered into my head) are more advanced than they're given credit for.
 
 
some guy
19:19 / 22.07.02
That human knowledge is constructed seems far more obvious than that it is not. Someone codified the steps of the scientific method. Someone wrote them down.

But this observation of the SM does not equate to the creation of the SM. Apes use the SM when they theorize that poking a stick into an insect nest will cause the stick to be covered in tasty insects. They cannot codify this process or construct elaborate, solipsistic theories about it, but it's there nevertheless.

A feminist position might suggest that such assumptions might have been incorrect. The same or another feminist position might seek to question "naturalness" altogether. Still others might view any or all human production as inextricably linked to to its socio-economic and historical-geographical context.

And how, pray tell, would you do that with the SM? Again, it appears that there is confusion in this thread between the SM and the scientific establishment.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:35 / 22.07.02
Apes use the SM when they theorize that poking a stick into an insect nest will cause the stick to be covered in tasty insects. They cannot codify this process or construct elaborate, solipsistic theories about it, but it's there nevertheless.

That's the theory behind the SM, that it's a codification of our natural inductional instincts, but I've yet to see that proved, or properly explored to be honest. For the good reason that codifying "instincts" is inherently problematic. Instincts are definable only through the process of codification (which would result in self-justification here) or by examining counter-examples, where the scientific method contradicts our instincts.

That's the area I think is best to explore. The SM is not claimed to be universal truth, but rather to be a "natural" extension of how the human mind perceives the universe. What, if any, are the contradictions between these? That's why I think a feminist examination might be valuable, in challenging the idea that certain perceptions are universal and not gender-based. However, I'm quite prepared for the fact that it might turn out that the perceptions are universal.
 
 
Thjatsi
20:16 / 22.07.02
I promised myself I would leave the philosophy of science threads alone, but here I am again.

There's no God's eye view, because the God's eyeview--up in the sky, looking down on the world or the experiment, take your pick, from an "objective" distance--is itself flawed and limiting.

Isn't this an objective statement?

Finally, I'm not arguing that the scientific method is "BAD," just that it is not "natural," does not exist outside culture, and is limited and it is potentially dangerous for persons to believe that it gives a kind of truth that is more Truth than any other.

Maybe I've completely misunderstood you here, but it seems like you could use this reasoning to argue that homeopathy is just as good of a cure cancer as chemotherapy. After all, aren't the theories of both methods based on subjective truths?
 
 
some guy
21:42 / 22.07.02
That's the theory behind the SM, that it's a codification of our natural inductional instincts, but I've yet to see that proved, or properly explored to be honest.

But the SM isn't a codification of "our natural inductional instincts," and nobody here is trying to make that case. The SM isn't something that can be disproved - it's something that happens every time an elephant tugs at its chain, just to check. At its most basic, it's the equation if A, then B, with A being any number and degree of situational data and B being the observable response. There's no room for any kind of "ism" in there. The SM has no bearing on the dogma that may arise from its use. No matter how far up our backsides we get trying to examine the SM through any of the various feminism, we'll still always get "the moon orbits the Earth," or whatever we were trying to figure out. Now, we could look at how various "isms" affect the interpretation and use of data gleaned by the SM, but that's a whole different kettle of fish.

That's the area I think is best to explore. The SM is not claimed to be universal truth, but rather to be a "natural" extension of how the human mind perceives the universe. What, if any, are the contradictions between these? That's why I think a feminist examination might be valuable, in challenging the idea that certain perceptions are universal and not gender-based. However, I'm quite prepared for the fact that it might turn out that the perceptions are universal.

I'm not sure anyone's arguing that the SM is a "'natural' extension of how the human mind perceives the universe," although we certainly could go down that road (and I'm sure we'd run into a lot of Stephen Hawking types telling us that the SM is a natural extension of human perception because the universe only exists and operates in a certain way because we exist to observe it in the first place).

It appears that human perceptions are not universal, but are consistent among social strata rather than gender (hence female politicians being just as blinkered and knee-jerk as male politicians and so forth).
 
 
Cat Chant
07:30 / 23.07.02
it appears that there is confusion in this thread between the SM and the scientific establishment.

The method exists independent of being able to identify it. The SM, when properly applied,

... and so on.

LaurenceLLBIMG, I really don't want to be snarky here because I genuinely am more interested in understanding and mutual enlightenment than in winning the argument, but myself, alas, ynh and several other people have posted a number of arguments suggesting that the method does not exist independent of being able to identify it, and that this - which looks like, and is taken for, a naturalized "cause" of scientific practice - is in fact a justificatory "effect".

I don't really see that the tree branch example (or the apes, or whatever) helps, since it seems to me that in all these example you are abstracting the SM out of a very messy situation and/or imposing the SM on a situation where it is not, in fact, being practiced. Deleuze & Guattari, for example, would say that the child was practicing a becoming-branch and the branch was practicing a becoming-child: or Horkheimer & Adorno, in their "Critique of Enlightenment" (and these are my two favourite quotes ever):

"the multitudinous affinities between existents are suppressed by the single relation between the subject who bestows meaning and the meaningless object, between rational significance [child] and the chance vehicle of significance [branch]"

"When in mathematical procedure the unknown becomes the unknown quantity of an equation, this marks it as the well-known even before any value is inserted."

Both these quotes, it seems to me, begin to indicate a particular form of closedness which is inherent in the scientific method, in the forms of relationality it sets up between experimenter/experimentee, etc.

Another point I would like to make is that it seems to me very odd to want to insist on the purity and unimprovability of a method which is never, in fact, practiced as it is preached. It's like saying "Well, we know that when we run across the road without looking we usually get run over. But that's due to socio-cultural systems, human bias, etc. The method is unimpeachable." Or a Christianized (cf alas's point about the theological affiliations of science) "love the sinner, hate the sin", "love the Church as representative of Christ on Earth but condemn all its actions ever". How do you justify drawing that distinction?

I'm sorry to keep on arguing about this stuff since actually I'd rather get into a dicussion with Lurid about whether the "observer independence" of certain material-technological effects has to involve the validity of the scientific method, and indeed what textual-feminist/ deconstructionist/ Frankfurtschool/ schizanalytical thinking can do about the fact that, as you say, a bomb will blow you up regardless of whether you understand it. It's certainly not the case that a critique of the scientific method/objectivity/etc has to end up arguing that everything is entirely dependent on what's going on in people's heads.

Started a position statement but had to delete it as I have to go out & buy a mattress. Will try & post more later.
 
 
w1rebaby
08:58 / 23.07.02
I'm sorry, but the scientific method is not "if A then B". That is an example of a theory that can be tested under the SM, not the SM itself. I found what I think is a pretty basic and straightforward definition from the alt.skeptic FAQ, which I'm going to run with:

1. Observe some aspect of the universe.
2. Invent a theory that is consistent with what you have observed.
3. Use the theory to make predictions.
4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations.
5. Modify the theory in the light of your results.
6. Go to step 3.

The more a theory is verified by observation, the more you can trust it to make future observations that accord with your perceptions. And that's it. Now, I find it very hard to come up with any objections, but there's no denying that the SM is theory-laden and untestable in itself, just as induction is. As Lurid said on the first page: "One should remember that science is concerned with a very particular type of knowledge and is also a strong philosophical assertion. Namely, that it is possible to gain observer independent repeatable data from the Universe."

I agree with Deva that reconstructing how people (and particularly animals) behave into the SM is dangerous. On the other hand, it is possible to explicitly follow the SM, and I don't agree that it is "never, in fact, practiced as it is preached". It's routinely practiced as it is preached. It makes no claims that the results of its use will be nice. Pollution, peer review etc is completely immaterial to the discussion.
 
 
some guy
13:39 / 23.07.02
I'm sorry, but the scientific method is not "if A then B". That is an example of a theory that can be tested under the SM, not the SM itself. I found what I think is a pretty basic and straightforward definition from the alt.skeptic FAQ, which I'm going to run with:

1. Observe some aspect of the universe.
2. Invent a theory that is consistent with what you have observed.
3. Use the theory to make predictions.
4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations.
5. Modify the theory in the light of your results.
6. Go to step 3.


You're just codifying the same thing in different language. The SM tells us If A, then B, which is exactly what, say, a lion does when it jumps a ravine for the first time. "If I run really fast and jump, I should clear the ravine." The actual running and jumping of which is an application of the SM, testing out the thought. This is why it's ludicrous to argue that the essentials of the SM (and not the codification) is unnatural and subject to bias. It either works or it doesn't. Or to put it another way, we might couch what the ape in the example Deva criticizes is doing in the language of the SM, or we might not. But there's no denying the same principles are at work.

Now, I find it very hard to come up with any objections, but there's no denying that the SM is theory-laden and untestable in itself

Interesting that nobody can come up with a workable argument that the SM actually 'does not exist independent of being able to identify it, and that this - which looks like, and is taken for, a naturalized "cause" of scientific practice - is in fact a justificatory "effect."'
 
 
The Natural Way
14:28 / 23.07.02
Laurence: yr gonna get beaten up......
 
 
some guy
14:41 / 23.07.02
Laurence: yr gonna get beaten up......

That's fine. Before people do that, however, I'm geniunely interested in having someone demonstrate why the SM "does not exist independent of being able to identify it, and that this - which looks like, and is taken for, a naturalized 'cause' of scientific practice - is in fact a justificatory 'effect.'" Especially without resorting to quoting academics with little grounding in the sciences.

I don't think anyone's satisfactorily done this yet. And not just in this thread, but anywhere, ever...
 
 
danmermel
15:19 / 23.07.02
none
 
 
Chuckling Duck
16:50 / 23.07.02
Science isn’t “just there”, but it isn’t a arbitrary construct, either. Science is like swimming.

Given the nature of our bodies and the nature of water, certain methods of propelling ourselves through water are more effective than others. Although swimming methods do differ from culture to culture, there is a definite convergence of technique, and in contemporary society certain strokes are established as optimal for sprinting, distance, etc.

Given the nature of our minds and the nature of physical reality, science is the best method we know for increasing our understanding of the material world. Certainly peer review and other aspects of our contemporary scientific community are products of our larger culture and not universal necessities. However, science demands some well-mediated process for the analysis and discussion of research techniques, so something that fufills the same role that peer review does for us is necessary.

What does feminism have to say about swimming? Is it a inherently discriminatory practice, given the speed and endurance records of male and female atheletes? Or is it a largely gender-neutral practice, since the same strokes are optimal for both men and women?

In my opinion, science is simply a tool in your mental toolbox, one that is without peer in its rigidly defined domain. Many of the criticisms I’ve seen leveled at it in this forum are equivalent to criticizing a hammer for not being a chainsaw.

For example, ynh wrote “You/they seem to have demonstrated that the scientific method does a job and does it well, but what about the results of that job? (polution, exploitation, &c.) It seems, as a method of solving material problems, the scientific method ignores certain implications. “

Science has given us the metallurgy and physics needed to create the automobile and the bicycle. It does not tell us which we should build our lives around, or indeed if we should build either. Similarly, science gives us the knowledge to create strip mines and wind farms, nuclear bombs and radiation treatments, electroshock therapy and the intranet. It does not tell us if or when or how do use any of these creations.

The real beauty of science is that its limitations are so well defined. It’s easy to see where science’s blind spots are. Can anyone state definitively what feminism’s blind spots are? Perhaps as long as we’re discussing what feminism has to say about science, we should consider what science has so say about feminism. What claims does feminism make, which of these claims are testable, and which of these claims are supported by empirical evidence?
 
 
YNH
17:05 / 23.07.02
Especially without resorting to quoting academics with little grounding in the sciences.

Who, exactly? Dr. Haraway, Yale Biologist, Professor at the History of Consciousness Board, UCSC, historian of science? Surely not hir.

The assumption that academics who question, um, things have little knowledge of those, um, things is ruinous toward processes of critical thought. Further, the assumption that a budding physical scientist has all the tools necessary to for commenting on social constructionism (as an example), but the degreed social scientist is completely unqualified to discuss "science" is at least silly, at worst bland hypocrisy. This, of course, might be a thread in itself.

The deployment of methophorical signifieds of the scientific method does not satisfactorily prove its ubiquity, naturalness, or timelessness. I think everyone here understands the connection; but we might question that very understanding.

I don't think anyone's project is disproving the scientific method. Some folks are interesting in interrogating its validity and purity. The first question arises from the very fact that it's genrally understood as a codified six-step process (see my first post - we learn that in grammar school) - we ask why these... six... steps? who codified them? under what conditions? The second question regards the implications of those six steps as the primary/privileged organization of thought; one begins to analyze history and contexts, here. Further questions are whether the method can reasonably be separated from those who invoke it, and why; whether attempting to completely objectify the process is dangerous, damaging, or necessary; and whether a different or modified codification might prove more useful.

However, some posters seem offended by the very notion of asking these questions. Why is that?
 
 
YNH
17:22 / 23.07.02
Science may be beautiful because of its limitations, but it's capable of vast atrocities in innocence due to same, yah? But that's okay.
 
  

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