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Feminism and the scientific method

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
some guy
18:24 / 28.07.02
Laurence suggests we confine the discussion to the scientific method itself, rather than the establishment and accomplishements - positive and negative - of science at large.

Well, that is the topic abstract, after all.

This is a wonderful idea, as feminisms can readily critique the end results and the methodology of scientific inquiry; and, as has been mentioned, the more difficult project it to identify flaws in theoretical reasoning.

Examples? Three pages in and we haven't come across any. Criticism of ethics and interpretation? Yes. The method itself? No.

Now, unfortunately we have some disagreement regarding the nature of the scientific method. On the one hand, several posters regard the codification of the six steps in Western sceince to be synonymous with a culural artifact of definite origin. On the other, this codification is viewed as one of possibly many representations of a natural process outside history, culture, and perhaps human experience altogether.

...which is why it would be helpful to come to agreement on a definition for use in this thread, surely?

Examples have been provided to discourage the pan-cultural and species non-specificity of any so-called universal process.

And provided to encourage the pan-cultural and species non-specificity of any so-called universal process, as well.

You obviously have a viewpoint on this issue. It'd be lovely if you offered some evidence and reasoning to back it up...
 
 
YNH
05:03 / 29.07.02
Bored now.

Examples of what? I'm chewing on my toenails waiting for implicit or explicit acknowledgement of any specific topic of discussion. Every time someone attempts this, you respond with a quibble. What would you like to talk about, Laurence?

Animals don't appear to learn the same way humans do, nor do they appear remember in a similar fashion. In a few exceptional (non-repeatable) cases, some creatures display rudimentary ability in these areas. Your theoretical bear does not stand up to scientific inquiry; the scientific method is not an interspecies project. What else encourages this assertion?

Neither has any evidence been provided that any culture (outside the literate with a facility for English and telecommunications) has any idea what the scientific method is, let alone that all cultures, panglobally, deploy it under clever pseudonyms. The demand for evidence without production of same is, um, well, at least confusing. At least one contradictory example has been provided; and I notice no response. I actually expected somthing like, "Of course they, do," followed by something about boiling water or fire.

Anthropologically speaking, we (especially the we without much education in that area) are likely to graft our dominant paradigms onto any "other" culture as we observe it. There may actually be no reliable way to determine whether cultures not engaged in chip-design are actually six-stepping.

What are we left with then? A six step code that's pretty much the same in English-speaking countries, their Western European counterparts, and portions of the populations of their former colonies. Right?
 
 
some guy
12:59 / 29.07.02
I'm chewing on my toenails waiting for implicit or explicit acknowledgement of any specific topic of discussion. Every time someone attempts this, you respond with a quibble.

The "specific topic of discussion" is named in the topic abstract. If you can't be bothered to read it, you don't really have much room for complaining. As a group we need to come to terms with certain parts of this discussion - are we conforming to the abstract and limiting our discussion to the scientific method itself, or are we now expanding it to include the scientific establishment? Are we defining the method as the six codified steps, or the process they represent? These questions have been asked repeatedly, but until we can all agree on an answer for the sake of this thread, we won't get very far discussing things because we'll all be having separate conversations.

I would also say that what you dismiss as "quibbles" are what discussion is all about, and that it's a handy rhetorical tool to ignore responses that one otherwise can't satisfactorily address. If you're "bored" feel free to hop onto another thread, and leave this one for the people who are interested in the points being raised by each other, even when we don't agree with them.

Animals don't appear to learn the same way humans do, nor do they appear remember in a similar fashion. In a few exceptional (non-repeatable) cases, some creatures display rudimentary ability in these areas. Your theoretical bear does not stand up to scientific inquiry; the scientific method is not an interspecies project. What else encourages this assertion?

You assume the bear does not engage in a form of scientific inquiry. As detailed upthread, there is a large swathe of the sciences concerned with animal knowledge and learning that suggests that human beings are not unique in their ability to communicate, reason and learn, nor even necessarily the way in which they do these things. Animal psychology (unless we are to dismiss an entire field) suggests that some animals emote and react, as well. If we are to be intellectually honest, we should probably shelve the animal cases for lack of clear understanding. It is more accurate to say some animals appear to exhibit behavior that we might codify as scientific inquiry in our society than to say they absolutely do not. You are incorrect about such cases being "non-repeatable" and your insistence that the process represented by our codification of the scientific method is definitely not an inter-species behavioral pattern.

Neither has any evidence been provided that any culture (outside the literate with a facility for English and telecommunications) has any idea what the scientific method is, let alone that all cultures, panglobally, deploy it under clever pseudonyms.

Once again it appears that the critics of the scientific method are completely unable to form a valid argument for the their position that includes dealing with the fact that the scientific method works in any culture. It's findings do not change. The speed of light is the same in Egypt as it is in France. Your argument here only works if we stringently define the scientific method as a specific six-step process codified by the West, a process that can only be performed after having learned the codification. Which is absolute nonsense, because the codification did not precede the behavior. Our language is descriptive, not proscriptive (which will drive some of us up the wall, I know, but our language does not change the moon, only the way we see it). It tends to describe things that are already happening...

The demand for evidence without production of same is, um, well, at least confusing. At least one contradictory example has been provided; and I notice no response.

Which example? As long as the discussion remains focused on the scientific method, criticism is difficult, because it works. Just by logging on to the Internet and participating in this discussion people are validating the process. Criticism tends to bypass the method for the scientific establishment, which is outside the topic abstract. You yourself, for example, have not offered a single criticism of the SM itself.

Anthropologically speaking, we (especially the we without much education in that area) are likely to graft our dominant paradigms onto any "other" culture as we observe it. There may actually be no reliable way to determine whether cultures not engaged in chip-design are actually six-stepping.

Again you're leaping ahead of the thread with a presumed definition of the scientific method. We haven't come to a group definition yet, and I think there's a good case to be made that the particular six steps describe an independent process that can be codified in other ways, much like swimming. Is the SM the breast stroke, or is it the swimming? Or is it a specific paragraph of English text describing one of those two things?

The problem is that we're not going to come to any resolution, not least because none of us have sufficient grounding in all the disciplines necessary to carry on talking about this at a level higher than speculation. Defining terms does us little good, because there is enough reason to suppose that a separation exists between term and process. So we would get into something like this:

We define the SM as a specific six-step method.
The SM is a Western creation.
It applies only to discoveries made using the SM.
Those discoveries are, by definition, infinitely verifiable.
Ergo, the SM leads to fact when properly applied.
Therefore, the SM itself is impervious to criticism, except by solipsists.

So we still get into a sticky dead end, notwithstanding the arguments that animals appear to echo the human ability to learn and discover, that the SM is a process and not a description, that scientific discoveries made in other cultures and other times appear to conform to the SM as a process and so forth.

Further, I don't think a single person has opposed the idea that the application of the SM is free from error or bias or ethical concern, so ostensible criticism of the SM that is in reality criticism of the scientific establishment, aside from being outside the remit of the topic abstract, won't get us very far, because we're all in agreement there.

This is why some of us continue to push the thread back on topic, and seek agreed definitions. We're navigating a morass that becomes slightly easier to handle the narrower it becomes.
 
 
some guy
13:49 / 29.07.02
Just a quick follow up to say I'm bowing out for a while, having been surprised by the size of my last post. I might respond when Deva returns or if Alas presents something interesting...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:22 / 29.07.02
We define the SM as a specific six-step method.
The SM is a Western creation.
It applies only to discoveries made using the SM.
Those discoveries are, by definition, infinitely verifiable.
Ergo, the SM leads to fact when properly applied.
Therefore, the SM itself is impervious to criticism, except by solipsists.


Or Muslims, it seems.

A possible way to get out of the endless and increasingly snippy circularity described in the last page: according to the Q'ran, the world is flat. Therefore, if you are selling radar equipment to one of the states of the Book, you must enter into an implicit agreement to work on the assumption that, scientifically, radar systems do not have a limited range because the curvature of the Earth means that the straight radar waves eventually extend past a point where they are likely to hit anything, but instead that the waves themselves are bent, and curve downwards eventually striking the ground and limiting the radar range. This, for the person you are negotiating with, is quite simply the truth. Not because they are solipsists, but because science works in a particular way in their country.

How does the scientific method act to confirm or deny that basic fact of natural law?

Incidentally, I am bewildered as to why nobody has yet suggested that the Scientific Method could be used, once and for all, to establish just whether or not bears are using the Scientific Method...
 
 
some guy
14:32 / 29.07.02
Very interesting! However:

Not because they are solipsists, but because science works in a particular way in their country.

The entire point of science is that it works irrespective of viewpoint. Science does not work "in a particular way in their country," no matter how much they may wish it to. The planet is still spheroid, despite the belief that it is flat.

How does the scientific method act to confirm or deny that basic fact of natural law?

Aside from sending humans into space to observe and film a round planet, you mean?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:04 / 29.07.02
Western propaganda. Any Islamic scientist worth his salt can show you infintely replicable experiments proving that the Earth is flat, including the above, where a radar wave of equal power in equal conditions will always impact the ground at the same place and lose signal.
 
 
some guy
16:22 / 29.07.02
Which is why we return to our regularly scheduled solipsism...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:15 / 29.07.02
You know, you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. For reference, solus means alone, and ipse means oneself.

The above example is interesting precisely because it is *not* solipsistic. On the one hand, our Islamic scientist belongs to a community of People of the Book. On another, he belongs to the community of science. As a member of the former, he understands the Earth to be flat as a matter of communal experience from those who live their lives according to the Q'ran, and one which is doctrinally and self-evidently therefore true. On the other hand, there is the empirical evidence available through, for example, radar testing, that radar waves interact with the physical universe in a particular, endlessly reduplicable way. This is therefore, according to the scientific method, true. There is also, as a scientist, the basic knowledge that, actually, the Earth *is* a spheroid, which he understands to be correct through his second-hand experience of, for example, pictures of the Earth from space, and the findings, also endlessly reduplicable, of secular science.

So, what we have here are two things that are true, and one thing that is correct, being based on things that are, apparently, true, but experienced at the second order.

Now, in a perfect world, Lawrence would enter a discussion about the nature of coexistent and/or contradictory truth systems and knowledge systems, which would then allow us to return to that flightly young butterfly and dilletante Donna Haraway and thence to feminism's relationship to the scientific method.
 
 
Lurid Archive
18:19 / 29.07.02
This is probably confusing as Laurence and me don't really see eye to eye. But lets clarify a few things. I don't claim that science is the only way to discover or impose, if you prefer, knowledge of the world. It is, of course, culturally situated and is both man made and fallible. It can suffer from prejudices held by its practitioners. (And I hate all the animal stuff. Sorry, laurence.) However, a criticism of the scientific method based on its particularity is like criticising english novelists for not producing a mass of works in Russian. It is specific and meant to be so. I said this from the start.

However, the implicit conclusion in all of this is that the knowledge therefore produced is culturally dependent. This is the point I am arguing about. Lets put that in bold, so that it is clear what I am asserting.

Some scientific knowledge is observer independent.

OK. A bold statement. How do I justify it? Weeeellll. The effects of some technology are apparently observer independent. As technology is the product of scientific knowledge, this knowledge must itself be observer independent.

Now what is assumed in this argument? I am assuming that one can make statements about the world and draw simple conclusions from them. Given the many technologies that have been produced, a consistent rejection of this argument requires a radical philosophical standpoint, in my view. Hence the references to solipsism and extreme scepticism. Of course, I may have missed a trick. So put it another way. Give me a consistent theory of knowledge that manages to deny the observer independence of scientific knowledge and technological effects and yet is still able to confidently assert the odd historical fact.

Of course, the Islamic example provides another escape from my argument on quite different grounds, which I was entirely aware of, but was too polite to mention. Any argument may be denied, if one drops the consistency requirement. If you privilege knowledge of a certain kind, or flatly reject certain knowledge, then you are prefectly able to believe whatsoever you choose. This is like a selective application of extreme scepticism. There are those on the science side who feel that you needn't go so far as Islam to find examples of this. However, I should stress that I am arguing generally, as specific instances of science may well be wrong even by its own standards. The point is that it is hard to reject it all.

But am I really having to argue observer independence of some scientific knowledge? If you seriously dispute this (and there is an irony in doing so on what is probably a mass produced machine over a scientfically produced medium shared by millions), then where does that leave us? Intellectual integrity would surely require us to let creationists have a vioce for their equally valid viewpoint? And surely Bush's rejection of global warming is entirely valid? Its not as if cities will be flooded if we ignore scientific evidence. That comes dangerously close to observer independence. Not to mention the military applications of science. Do I really need to go on?
 
 
Lurid Archive
18:22 / 29.07.02
Just a PS, and I mean this in the nicest possible way Laurence, but overly certain statements tending to the absolute have a way of being very easy to knock down.
 
 
some guy
19:19 / 29.07.02
You know, you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. For reference, solus means alone, and ipse means oneself.

Connotation, not denotation...

So, what we have here are two things that are true, and one thing that is correct, being based on things that are, apparently, true, but experienced at the second order.

Ah, but you're avoiding the fact that objective truth and metaphysical truth are two different things. There are many different models of the universe, each of which is true in themselves. But these models have no bearing on the objective reality of the universe. And so the Earth, which is truly flat within an Islamic continuum, is in fact spheroid anyway. We can play in rhetorical traps all day, but the thing about objective reality is that it doesn't care what we think about it. The Earth is still spherical no matter what we believe. As Lurid points out, "some scientific knowledge is observer independent." Or, just because a lot of people believe something for a very long time, it's not necessarily true.

but overly certain statements tending to the absolute have a way of being very easy to knock down.

Yes, I'm trying to modify my words.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:27 / 29.07.02
And as soon as somebody accuses somebody else of "rhetoric", there goes the ball game.
 
 
alas
05:27 / 30.07.02
I have been thinking about this thread far too much for the past few days as I've been procrastinating on getting my syllabi ready for the next semester, as usual. And I knew, of course, that LLBiMG would get me for continuing the off-thread discussion of the scientific establishment. And he was right to do so, but-arrgh!-part of my frustration and joy (hey--I'm a masochist, so it's all the same to me) in this discussion is the analytical assumption that is at the heart of the scientific process as it has been practiced in the West.

Ok: so I'm not disputing that millions of replicable experiments show that water boils at the same temperature under certain specific conditions and did so even when we didn't know that! However, that thought brings up a bunch of different thoughts for me, which I'm going to try very hard to deal with in a systematic, analytical fashion (although please be aware my penchant is for synthetic, contextual, poetic forms of knowledge. . . . won't get into whether that's nature or nurture . . . )

First, I experienced ball lightning when I was a kid. I was sitting on the couch during a tremendous midwestern thunderstorm, and poof! the lights flashed and a blue ball of electricity streaked across the room and fizzled on the dining room carpet. I didn't realize it had a name, or even that it was a fairly rare experience, until a friend of mine told me that he'd experienced it once too-another Iowa thunderstorm, lightning hit the air conditioning unit that was outside the basement window he slept next too, and poof! pop! His split into two, bounced around the room, and then fizzled.

Several years later, in the 1990s, scientists began to be able to "create" artificial forms of ball lightning, thus, for most people, "proving"-or at least very strongly suggesting-its existence as a scientific fact. The problem heretofore had been, precisely, the replicability of the experience. Many scientists were skeptical of the existence of ball lightning because it's not readily replicable. But also, as this article-particularly the reference to Ludwig Fleck's The Genesis and Development of a Scientific Fact explores, there is a degree to which until phenomena like "ball lightning" can be fit into a scientific discourse, they do not "exist" as facts . . . And this has all kinds of cultural ramifications.

Which, I hope leads me to my second thought. For which, I want to go back to the NYTimes article abstract I quoted earlier:

[the] research subjects in China, Korea and Japan [tended, in this experiment to] pay greater attention to context and relationship, rely more on experience-based knowledge than abstract logic and show more tolerance for contradiction; [the] American subjects [tested by this experiment] tend[ed] to detach objects from their context, avoid contradictions and rely more heavily on formal logic

I put in additions and cautionary phrases to show how my thinking tends to work: cautiously. Like the scientists who disbelieve in ball lightning despite many claims by non-scientists like me (and even some scientists) of having experienced it, until the experiment is repeated many times, I remain cautious. However, despite my extreme degree of Western-Academic trained skepticism about the reporter's claims for this experiment and the conclusions we may draw from it, I do believe that this very discussion echoes the claim suggested in this article. Those arguing for the "objectivity"-or observer-independent reality-of scientific facts seem to me to be pretty much following the trend that the American subjects of this study showed: first, detaching the SM from the context of Western science/scientific culture. Second, they have had a tendency-and I'm trying not to sound perjorative myself when I say this but apologies if I fail-to equate formal logic with rationality. And, 3) I feel, the "observer independent" (OI) folks have been finding contradictions in the more culturally-focused arguments (CF) where those posting those CF arguments quite possibly either don't see their arguments as containing contradictions or who are perhaps more "tolerant" of contradiction.

For example:

You are surrounded by technology that would have been considered miraculous centuries ago. To dismiss the understanding that made this possible as "culturally dependent" is really to engage in extreme scepticism or solipcism - these are not used pejoratively at all. Simply, I believe that they are the only real way to deny the success of science without prejudicially rejecting the whole bag.

See, for me, I don't see this conclusion, since I don't "prejudicially reject the whole bag" of science. But I've had trouble articulating why. So I've continued thinking about it. And it occurred to me that the word "dismiss" in the second sentence suggests an assumption that I don't make, but that many scientists, and to be fair, most of the Anglo-American educated public share. To me, to say knowledge is culturally dependent is to say it is as real as it gets for us. I believe the implicit hierarchy "real" vs. "cultural" to be bogus. We can't fully step outside culture; to accept a fact as a fact requires cultural activity-an activity that is invisible when the fact is something as non-controversial as water boiling but which is more visible when its ball lightning. Or the intelligence of women.

Why is the cultural activity surrounding the existence of ball lightning, intelligence in women, more visible than boiling water? Because of several factors, perhaps most importantly: history. And historical knowledge is part of the scientific method: here's why: if a result has to be repeatable, then memory must be invoked. And not just memory, but "logic" and "reasoning" by an (accredited) agent. That is: someone whose opinion "counts" has to decide: is this "carefully controlled circumstance" exactly the same or "exactly enough the same" as that to "count" as a "repetition"?

I promise I won't talk about rivers or stepping in them twice, but: someone has to decide that some variables in an experiment "matter" (e.g., pouring other substances into the water) and others don't (e.g., the color of the lab technician's shirt). And, when the question is controversial, as the question must be or-outside a secondary-school class experiment-the experiment wouldn't be being performed at all!, then it automatically "matters" who is deciding whether the experiment counts as an instance of repeatability.

So, again, I find it difficult to detach the SM from cultural context because there is no method in a vacuum; methods require agents, and agents come from specific cultures, which will shape the way they see the world, willy nilly...

And although it was said facetiously, I don't believe the scientific method could ever establish what is going on in bears brains: it can't have complete access to reality. Water only boils at exactly the same temperature under carefully controlled circumstances, circumstances which don't ever occur in "nature," because as soon as soon as it's outside the lab, well, science has a hard time making absolute, conclusive statements.

(The other issue I'd love to talk about, but won't because I've gone on far too long is the faith in miniaturization that is at the heart of the scientific method as it is practiced in the West. But basta! ya basta! .…)
 
 
YNH
08:06 / 30.07.02
Laurence, I only just recognized who you were. I realize I've allowed myself to be drawn into nealr the same argument a second time. I apologize to the community.

Anyway, I think, obviously, that the scientific method as we know it is a six-step process handed down from some very clever fellas.

As Tann points out, this process, in other places, may have other steps or a guiding caveat, or (we dip into theory) some other modifier altogether. The point is that the scientific method is asserted in its host communities as the superior mode of thought/iquiry; or to be more honest, the only credible mode.

Feminisms tend to question authoritative positions as a matter of course. Where does that authority come from? The inital responses to the thread were simply that: questions.

Back on page two we began working with what Deva referred to simply as the A/not-A division and at this point appear to have rejected it as a useful though process.

Lurid's statement Some scientific knowledge is observer independent seems like a good place to move forward from. By changing "is" to "apears to be" it's fine. Not only that, it's testable - cue six step. But I suspect ze would rather leave "is" as is. I don't dispute the statement, I'd just like to see it interogated.

Laurence, even, could be going there. In Tann's example two separate processes yeild the same range limitations for radar signals might be a powerful argument for science. alas brings up the questions of what constitutes an important condition: in this case, the shape of the Earth is irrelevant to the results. One gets practical applications (technology) via a different processes.

Feminisms, or other schools of thought, might say we're moving into the borderlands between methods where there is no single scientific method that can be pointed to as having asbsolute authority over any other. In such a context, explicitly allowing for inherent observer bias (first step "observe something") is taken for granted; even the the prejudicial favour of one's home court system - which, by definition, is an abstraction from experience rather than a concretization of timeless forces. That assumption becomes even more important when one takes into account alas's last point, that lab conditions are controlled, and life as experienced is not.

bah, as usual this runs on too long... (what I might have meant to say is that rather than dissing any other form of knowledge production - unless one insists that there is only one way - perhaps discovering what is true among them is a better way of discovering the universe?)
 
 
some guy
13:28 / 30.07.02
there is a degree to which until phenomena like "ball lightning" can be fit into a scientific discourse, they do not "exist" as facts . . . And this has all kinds of cultural ramifications.

Alas, this is a brilliant observation! I think we should explore this further.

Anyway, I think, obviously, that the scientific method as we know it is a six-step process handed down from some very clever fellas.

I'm sure there's some guff about dead horses and whatnot to be had, but have we decided this yet? If we have that's fine, let's begin examining the specific steps. I'm not sure it's "obvious." I think defining the SM as the Western six-step codification opens us up to accusations of cultural bias etc. Is the SM the breast stroke in particular or swimming in general?

Lurid's statement Some scientific knowledge is observer independent seems like a good place to move forward from. By changing "is" to "apears to be" it's fine. Not only that, it's testable - cue six step. But I suspect ze would rather leave "is" as is. I don't dispute the statement, I'd just like to see it interogated.

We could alter the statement to a possibility, but this opens us up again to accusations of solipsism and the perennial unobserved falling tree in a forest scenario. If we choose not to transfer results of the lab to the larger universe outside it, there's not much point in playing in the lab. There is also considerable after-the-fact evidence to suggest a more or less stable universe that conforms to the model produced by the SM. The whole field of forensics, for example, is based on that premise (though how interesting it would be if it weren't). I'd suggest that the fact that science has practical applications in the real world mitigates against an "appears to be" clause, but of course we can always play with one.

In Tann's example two separate processes yeild the same range limitations for radar signals might be a powerful argument for science. alas brings up the questions of what constitutes an important condition: in this case, the shape of the Earth is irrelevant to the results. One gets practical applications (technology) via a different processes.

This I'm fascinated by, actually. As radar was developed by the West, it seems obvious that radar construction in Muslim countries simply ports over the essence of that technology and does not rely on creation from the ground up based on an erroneous tenet of religious belief. However, I put the caveat "seems" in there because it's interesting to speculate whether Muslim countries might have invented radar based on their demonstrably wrong science. If they did, what does that mean? It's also worth exploring whether technology can be developed based on incorrect theories about the physical universe (I think it can, and probably has been). What would that say?

It's also worth point out that creation "science" goes to great pains to interpret various facts to conform to a previously held belief in the nature of reality, whereas the whole point of the SM is to create a model of reality based on discovered facts. A key distinction. Any facts can fit any theory, as readers of mystery and fans of conspiracy will attest.

Feminisms, or other schools of thought, might say we're moving into the borderlands between methods where there is no single scientific method that can be pointed to as having asbsolute authority over any other. In such a context, explicitly allowing for inherent observer bias (first step "observe something") is taken for granted; even the the prejudicial favour of one's home court system - which, by definition, is an abstraction from experience rather than a concretization of timeless forces. That assumption becomes even more important when one takes into account alas's last point, that lab conditions are controlled, and life as experienced is not.

But again, this becomes a linguistic game that sounds nice in theory but has little application to reality because, as has been pointed out by several people, the scientific method demonstrably works and alternative methods do not, at least not anywhere to the same degree and with repeatable results. We get dragged back to asking the obvious questions: If feminism champions the other methods, why? Is it a knee-jerk reaction because science is seen as a male dominion? Could it be possible that not all methods for discovering knowledge are equal? Have alternative methods revealed any demonstrable scientific facts? Can magic reveal the mass of the moon? Could peer review demonstrate the boiling point of water? Has intuition produced a DNA map? These are legitimate questions that ought to be asked in tandem with any deconstruction of science.

We're also approaching a point where a certain faction appears unable to criticize the SM itself and is therefore requiring that the application of the SM be necessarily included as part of the method, which muddies the waters.

what I might have meant to say is that rather than dissing any other form of knowledge production - unless one insists that there is only one way - perhaps discovering what is true among them is a better way of discovering the universe?

I think, in general, this has been the position of everyone here.

Who am I supposed to be, incidentally?
 
 
YNH
16:42 / 30.07.02
Silly, you asked me a couple steps up to state my position. Lurid did it, so I figured I would to: the "obviously" bit modifies "I think" - as in no one will be suprised to know this. I am perfectly happy naming those six steps as those Lurid posted on page two.

I'd suggest that the fact that science has practical applications in the real world mitigates against an "appears to be" clause, but of course we can always play with one.

Which is sort of what I meant. See, we can occupy common ground here.

What would that say?

I don't know, exactly. Work and moving have left me intermittent time to consider it. Might support, um, universal truths: radar is of limited range, for example. Might also screw everything up.

Oh, and feminisms do not champion other methods. If one reads closely, you won't find any of "us" doing that in this thread, even if Persephone and I can be a little shouty.

You're TNW
 
 
some guy
17:09 / 30.07.02
the "obviously" bit modifies "I think"

Oops, I misread that bit!

Oh, and feminisms do not champion other methods. If one reads closely, you won't find any of "us" doing that in this thread, even if Persephone and I can be a little shouty.

It appears that the thread broke into an entire tangent on alternatives to the scientific method a few pages ago, actually. I didn't mean that feminists might support a specific method, but rather that they might support the viability of other methods in general - the inclusivity argument that came up earlier. I was just suggesting that we ought to specifically examine the viability of those alternative methods, especially as it is so difficult to critique the scientific method specifically. What else works as well as the scientific method?

You're TNW

So? Am I missing something?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
00:01 / 31.07.02
I've fought shy of jumping in on this thread. On the face of it, the discussion ought to be tailor-made for me: I'm a feminist with a great big F, and I also have a background in science (as well as art and various "intuitive" areas).

So why haven't I got involved? To be honest, I didn't know where to start. The Headshop always makes me feel a bit I-did-metalwork-ish, but this thread in particular has thrown me a loop. I feel like I'm wandering in some familiar country-- but lost, utterly lost.

I'm remined of a thread awhile back, where a headshop regular had posted some *ahem* "scientific" study from a women's magazine (Chat, I think?) which reckoned to prove that women were duty bound to do the shopping because Safeways makes bloke's heads explode or something. And to this poster, this was a huge, serious problem: this article in Chat magazine was really and truly a source of distress.

My first reaction, on the other hand, was: "Oh, YEAH?"

What study? Conducted by whom? Reported where? what was the initial premise? How did they select their sample group? Who put up the funding? Assuming that the original study was all shipshape and Bristol fasion, did the Chat staff read the original study?-- I think not! So what version of the results did they read? Who was responsible for passing along the information to Chat? What was their agenda? Where were you on the night of the 15th? Who is Number 1?

In short, I dismissed the idea out of hand. If I'd read the same story in the same magazine, I'd have put it down to the fact that to have a "woman's magazine" or a "men's magazine" you also have to have a certain set of norms to define your readership, ergo it's in the magazine's interest to reinforce those norms. Fuck Chat, fuck Cosmo, fuck FHM, fuck Maxim, where's my Beano?

What I'm saying is: For me, the scientific method is one of the main hooks on which I hang my feminism. It's my backup. Studies may come and studies may go, but a good solid grounding in how those studies are performed, including the ulterior motives that might lie behind them, is one of the most invaluable tools a feminist can posess.

Intuition? Lovely stuff, intuition. Get through a quart a day-- a jereboam on Sunday. But if the scientific method can be enslaved to prejudice and bigotry, then intuition is even more vulnerable to this.

I'm feeling lazy, so I'm going to go for a cheap shot: Imagine, for the sake of example, that I'm a rapist. Imagine that my imaginary victim said No, and I admit that quite happily to my imaginary court-- but I defend myself by saying that I ignored hir refusal because I intuited that ze really meant Yes.

How many of you would support that? Nobody? I should hope not. Intuition is a useful tool, but it should never, never, be the court of last appeal.

While we're on the subject I would also like to kick sand in the face of the whole precept that emotional/intuitive = femine (and therefore feminist), whereas scienctific/rational = masculine (and therefore Bad). I don't question that there are certain quirks of the male and female brain that may show up as behavioural tendencies. I would argue that these are trends, no more, and since it is not easy to observe our species as something seperate from social constructs, we can't in good conscience make assumptions about inbuilt gender roles. Unless I missed some fairly crucial biology, I'm female, and I'm quite happy with science in general and my field (electronics) in particular. I get all antsy when I see that particular stereotype (yes, it is a stereotype) being deployed. This is an iniquitous notion. It assumes without the desire to prove; it would put us all in cages, women and men alike, and have us belive that to be caged is our destiny.

This kind of gender stereotyping is not a feminist concept, it is a sexist concept.

No, we will never be able to free ourselves entirely from our preconceptions. Yes, various underlying social, cultural, imperial, whateveral structures will always taint our research; I don't think any scientist would deny that. But the scientific method is the little tiny rock-hammer that we use to chip away at those things, year on year, discovery on discovery. Yes, our findings may be taken away and twisted to suit the status quo-- but that's not science, that's reporting. They are two different things.

I'm your inferior? Prove it. I'm better at that job than this job? Prove it. My mind can't handle this concept, that calculation? Prove. It.

I'm a feminist in the same way I'm a Darwinist: it's just the most reasonable conclusion, based on avaliable evidence. End of story. Empirical evidence, for me, is where it's at.


Empirical evidence is the big Fuck You I give to sexism:

Equal pay? Fuck you, women still get less money for more hours.
Equal opportinites? Fuck you, women are still under-represented in certain sectors, still get passed over for promotion, blah blah (and, indeed, fishcakes).
Equal in the eyes of the law? Fuck you, women still get treated more harshly for certain offences.
Equal this, equal that: Here's the balance sheet, here's the figures, here's the facts, here's the black and white of it, and by the way-- fuck you.

No disrespect.
 
 
Jackie Susann
04:04 / 31.07.02
"We're also approaching a point where a certain faction appears unable to criticize the SM itself and is therefore requiring that the application of the SM be necessarily included as part of the method, which muddies the waters."

i admit that i haven't waded all the way through this thread, but this seems to be pretty close to the crux of the matter to me. llbimg thinks there is something called scientific method which exists objectively outside those processes in which it is performed, i.e., that its essence exists outside its applications. i disagree, and i don't think i'm alone. people who don't believe in an abstract essence of SM cannot, therefore, critique it on the quasi-metaphysical plane you seem to think it occupies; they can only offer critiques of the applications by which it makes itself known to us mere earthlings. this is getting more sarcastic than i meant it to, but i hope my point is coming across anyway.

thus, if you want people to offer criticisms of SM 'itself', you might have to explain what such a critique could possibly consist of, if not a criticism of the actually existing forms of SM (i can't believe i just typed 'actually existing SM' without giggling).
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:12 / 31.07.02
alas. I think I agree with almost all of your last post. The process for adopting new scientific knowledge and rejecting the old is particularly fascinating. It is both crucial to a critique of the SM and notoriously hard to approach.

I suppose I take the other camp when it comes to logic versus intuition, mostly for the reasons that Mordant outlines, but again it is a worthwhile line of inquiry. However, any "test" to separate logic and intuition in terms of efficacy would almost certainly beg the question.

But I'd like to make a different point about the language used in these debates. I'm going to try to do this gently, but as alas says, one's training does have a large effect. (BTW, despite impressions to the contrary, I'm not a scientist.)

I'll focus on you, alas, not because I think you are more deserving of criticism, but because you seem the most sympathetic to "our" side.

So, alas. In your last post, your comments about the boiling point of water would be considered to be a belief in observer independence by most readers. Your earlier posts worked hard to point out the cultural dependence of science and the impossibility of objectivity. However, there has been no attempt to establish a hierarchy of objectivity. But you clearly don't believe that the boiling point of water is as subjective as a particular taste in fashion.

Moreover, and this is typical of these debates, the refutations of objectivity are almost exclusively focused on science. Fair enough, in a debate about science. But...Taken together, these comments have a rhetorical impact which belies the position that you hold, alas. I'd suggest that one never hears statements like "It is not an objective fact that SA apartheid was rascist", even though you would agree with the content of that statement, if not the implication.

And this is a crucial point. Arty people are proficient with language, implication and tone. So many scientists wonder why statements are made which many would interpret as being strongly anti science. alas, you yourself say that most people would misunderstand the intention of your posts. And yet you made little attempt to mitigate this early on. Which is odd, given your pro science stance.

DPC: But a critique of the SM must be metaphysical to some extent. And there should also be some degree of separation between practice and institution. By way of analogy, one might ask if language itself is sexist purely because of the existence of sexist statements.

I think that a good complete critique should outline an epistemology, and propose an alternative to scientific practice that would redress some bias but build on past success.
 
 
some guy
12:19 / 31.07.02
they can only offer critiques of the applications by which it makes itself known to us mere earthlings. thus, if you want people to offer criticisms of SM 'itself', you might have to explain what such a critique could possibly consist of, if not a criticism of the actually existing forms of SM

I think you're creating a false paradigm for evaluation by requiring the SM to be judged by the application of its findings rather than its ability to produce those findings in the first place. You're adding a criterion the SM makes no claim to include, and therefore we are unable to get a valid critique of the SM itself but rather receive a picture of your social bias ("application is a seventh step").

To critique the SM one would have to critique the six steps, or demonstrate that the results of the properly applied SM are not true and repeatable. The closest we have gotten is the notion that objective observation cannot possibly ever occur, which calls into question a key component of the SM. But the sheer amount of discovery and technology available to us today, constantly corroborated by scientists from different cultures with different social biases around the world suggests that yes, objective observation is possible or, at the very least, that levels of subjectivity in some observations are so minute as to be irrelevant.

Mordant, great post.
 
 
alas
19:59 / 31.07.02
alas, you yourself say that most people would misunderstand the intention of your posts. And yet you made little attempt to mitigate this early on. Which is odd, given your pro science stance.

This is a fair question. Why did I not mitigate my earlier critique? Well, partly rushed incompetence, I must confess: good careful writing requires good careful thinking and not every post I've made passes the "good writing/good thinking" test. Which is to my shame, and not useful to the part I'm arguing.

However, second, I also know that I typically "pay greater attention to context and relationship, rely more on experience-based knowledge than abstract logic and show more tolerance for contradiction" than do most people in my culture, who tend to take the detached, formal-logic view of the world described in the NYTimes experiment that I referred to earlier. It's very difficult to talk across that divide, and since I can't always be bothered, I'm used to being viewed with suspicion, ridicule, and vague antipathy, as a result. Like most people who feel like they have to use code-shifting, I get tired of translating all the time, and the implication that if a thought cannot be translated into terms that the people who take a detached/formal logic view of the world, it must not be worth knowing... It sort of goes back to the idea of the selfish meme that Persephone? or Deva? noted on page one, and the mutual antagonism between them.

Which leads to my third reason: I was also writing out of a sense of anger over the tone which I read in the initial pro-science postings, which implied, to me, a kind of: "Ha! Look at these cute feminists who think they might have something meaningful to say about the scientific method!" This tone may not have been intended by most or any of the initial pro-science posters. Still, I've re-read the initial postings, and I sincerely don't think I was simply being overly sensitive; I still detect condescension there. If something isn't intuitively obvious from a detached, logic perspective, then it's automatically irrational and solipsistic, and on this page has been equated with a kind of intuition that is not what I'm arguing for, either. Clearly, getting angry in reaction to such a stance doesn't serve me well, rhetorically, but perhaps it's an understandable reaction?

The one statement that I made earlier (although damnit! I can't read page 3; it keeps refusing to load for me!) that I'm least sure about now, is when I said something like "I think it can be dangerous for people to think that science has more Truth than any other truth." I like Mordant's in your face "empiricism is my feminist pal" statement, which is useful tonic, especially coming from such an overtly feminist stance. So I'm still thinking about why I can hold the seemingly contradictory stance whereby I both agree with Mordant and still believe that there's good in cultural relativism, cultural diversity.

I need to think more about the connection between the use of rationality as a means by which to gain power and potentially to silence those voices one doesn't agree with, versus its use as a means by which to gain knowledge of the world. When is it legitimate to silence other perspectives (e.g., the Creationists) and when is it potentially problematic?

Finally (trying desperately to keep this short), in response to Lurid Archive's point(s):
Moreover, and this is typical of these debates, the refutations of objectivity are almost exclusively focused on science. Fair enough, in a debate about science. But...Taken together, these comments have a rhetorical impact which belies the position that you hold, alas. I'd suggest that one never hears statements like "It is not an objective fact that SA apartheid was rascist", even though you would agree with the content of that statement, if not the implication. . . .
. . . I think that a good complete critique should outline an epistemology, and propose an alternative to scientific practice that would redress some bias but build on past success.


I think the posting you're looking for is (basically) given in this article, "Indians: Textualism, Morality, and the Problem of History" by Jane Tompkins, which provides, I believe, a fairly clear analysis of the ethical dilemma you raise with the South Africa example (Tompkins uses the genocide of North American Indians), taking, as you suggest, not scientific objectivity but historical objectivity as its focus.

I've thought of this Tompkins piece a great deal during this debate, and I'd be sincerely interested in your reaction to it. It's not the word of God, by any means, on this debate, for my money--I'll have to re-read it myself to be more specific; IIRC, it's perhaps ultimately a little simplistic by strict philosophical standards. But it's nevertheless a clearly written, useful perspective on the vexed question of epistemology in a post-structuralist context. I'd be happy to discuss it with you, either here, in another thread, or in a PM context.
 
 
Spaniel
20:18 / 31.07.02
Crunchy, great point. llbimg, seems to be occupying some distinctly dodgy philosophical ground. Suggesting that SM exists outwith the actual methodology employed (be it by bear or man ) insists on some kind of old-school essentialist argument. Exactly the kind of argument that is roundly rejected by most contemporary schools of western philosophical thought, and by most philosophically trained scientists and mathematicians for reasons far to numerous to mention here.

Assuming that we do not subscribe to the essentialist view of SM, then we must admit to having only the actual methodology employed as an object of critique. And methodologies that don't have some kind of platonic referent can be criticised like any other on the basis of their practical application.

As far as I am aware there are critiques of the standard SM method in existence originating from within the scientific community. I seem to remember reading something in New Scientist a couple of years ago suggesting that some sort of subjective component be brought into at least some applications of the SM.
Perhaps someone better educated in all things scientific could fill in the blanks.
 
 
some guy
21:39 / 31.07.02
not every post I've made passes the "good writing/good thinking" test.

Join the club!

methodologies that don't have some kind of platonic referent can be criticised like any other on the basis of their practical application.

That's very lazy, and precisely the sort of "Can't blame the scientific method? Blame the establishment instead!" trap we've been quite careful to avoid. Not to mention - why?
 
 
some guy
21:57 / 31.07.02
Suggesting that SM exists outwith the actual methodology employed (be it by bear or man ) insists on some kind of old-school essentialist argument

Unfashionable suggestions, of course, being too vulgar to possibly be true. As I've said all along, we need to define what we're calling the SM here, because it affects the entire discussion. Is it a process, descibed in our culture by a six-step method but possibly described elsewhere in different terms, or is it a label for the specific six steps listed previously? It appears that, as a list, we're leaning toward the 'codification' over 'process' definition, which raises a few points:

1) We're still back to being unable to critique the method without raising the chestnut of adding a seventh step (application of discovery).

2) Did the SM originate with the original drafting of the six steps, or was the codification of the six steps a codification of procedures previously employed? If the former, where did it come from (ie: did the six steps pop into someone's head and revolutionize science)? If the latter, we can dismiss the "old-school essentialist" twaddle, because it is proof that the six steps are a codification of behavior previously extant.

3) If one is from a culture (or species) without knowledge of the specific six-step codification, but learn knowledge from the same procedure, is one using the scientific method? In other words, do you have to know the six steps in order to perform the process? If not, isn't that proof that the process exists outside of its codification?

4) To date no-one (and I use this in a larger context than just this thread) has been able to accomodate Lurid's request to demonstrate an alternative method of knowledge gathering that is as consistent, pan-cultural and workable as the scientific method. This suggests that criticism of the SM (or, in the case of most of this thread, the scientific establishment) is based on cultural bias and political leaning (e.g. "We must look at application of results! If the application fits my political viewpoint, the SM is a success!" and so forth) than any flaw in the method itself (because surely if the method is flawed, it wouldn't produce results). This view is further supported by the repeatable nature of scientific experiments and the corroboration of the SM from scientists globally.

Thoughts?
 
 
Jackie Susann
02:33 / 01.08.02
so to remind people, esp. myself, these are the 6 steps as laid out on page 2:

1. Observe some aspect of the universe.
2. Invent a theory that is consistent with what you have observed.
3. Use the theory to make predictions.
4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations.
5. Modify the theory in the light of your results.
6. Go to step 3.

now laurence says:
'To critique the SM one would have to critique the six steps, or demonstrate that the results of the properly applied SM are not true and repeatable.'

now, the second part of this sentence has, so far as i can tell, no relation to the SM steps themselves, so it is much a critique of application as anything else anyone might suggest. the first part - to critique the SM one would have to critique the six steps - is pretty obviously tautological. moreover, it seems plenty of critique has already been directed to the first step - that the means by which one would isolate one particular aspect of the universe as distinct from others and decide that it was particularly worthy of investigation are more or less entirely culturally constructed. i think its pretty easy to offer comparable critiques of individual steps in the process.

on the other hand, the examples used to defend SM - i.e. that water has a constant boiling point - seems to me to be a defence of an application, not a defence of the methodology in itself.
 
 
Lurid Archive
08:34 / 01.08.02
To save myself from repetition, I'll direct DPC to here. My contention there is that despite the cultural bias of observers, a large body of scientific knowledge is observer independent. Thus a criticism of the SM based on the cultural bias of observation (which would be true for any modification) doesnt really go anywhere, by itself.
 
 
some guy
12:31 / 01.08.02
Lurid's already handled A, so I'll take B.

on the other hand, the examples used to defend SM - i.e. that water has a constant boiling point - seems to me to be a defence of an application, not a defence of the methodology in itself

But boiling water is not an application with regards to step 1 and/or 4, but rather a natural physical process to be observed. It's an excellent example that some facts can be objectively known, thereby diminishing the argument that the SM is necessarily victim to cultural bias.
 
 
alas
20:37 / 01.08.02
LA: I still react strongly to this phrase:
"the cultural bias of observation"

Let me try to explain: I get irked by the word "bias" which I believe in this context basically means, as the closest dictionary to hand says, "a preference or inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgement." Cultural constructionists are not talking about "bias" but about the way that all observations--even our own--require observers, observers have to have a cultural frame of reference in order to make sense of any data presented to them, including facts like "water boils at 100 degrees C." The "factness" of that fact is known to us as unchallengeable BECAUSE we know it to have been replicated under controlled circumstances pretty much since the thermometer was invented. That's why no one's testing it any more: we know the history. That historically-informed frame of reference is required to MAKE that fact recognizeable as an "objective" fact, rather than as a less-sure, less-"objective" fact, like the existence of ball lightning.

So, while sure, it seems pretty damn likely that even if we couldn't know about it, water would be boiling merrily at the same temperature no matter where. But, of course, if we couldn't know that, we wouldn't know it, and it wouldn't be a "fact" that we could access. Right? So it wouldn't be a fact, at some level. Cultural critics are not so interested in debunking the scientific method, as some on the pro-science side seem to think, nor are cultural critics likely to say "maybe water doesn't boil at 100 degrees in all cultures!" or "Maybe there are better ways to find out the boiling temperature of water" They might, however, ask questions like: why do we in the West care about this particular observation about this particular aspect of the physical universe? Clearly we do care, or we wouldn't have made the observation, developed thermometers to measure it, and codified it. Why? Why are the various physical properties of the physical universe so important to our culture, anyway, in a larger sense? Why do other cultures not care enough about the boiling point of water to seek to repeatably observe and codify it? If a culture spends a great deal of time, money and resources on observing and codifying things like the existence of ball lightning, even perhaps while members of the culture are suffering from hunger, malnutrition, and poverty, or even just loneliness, what do we make of that culture? What do other cultures make of such a culture? How can we say what constitutes the cultural "success" of a system like that which has grown around the scientific method?

As I see it, those are some of the kinds of questions that cultural critics are typically interested in. We think they are important questions. We don't believe that human systems exist outside culture--including the systems of knowledge we use. We also present some "facts" as fairly "objective" because of the scientifically-inflected discourse we are expected to use, and because some ideas have been repeatedly established through philosophical argumentation that they are taken as valid premises for our work. So cultural critics, can present an idea like "No human systems, no observations, no facts, exist in an a priori relation to culture" as a "fact"--as a premise that does not need to be re-defended--because, like the boiling temperature of water, it's already been done, hundreds of times.
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:30 / 01.08.02
alas: you are right that my choice of words in some sense betrays me. But I really do understand the point you are making about the cultural placement (is that more accurate?) that is necessary for any knowledge.

But if I may return to a point about the tone of this debate. You have said that you get tired of the mistrust and misunderstanding you face. While I understand that, one cannot ignore the implications, for the audience, of what one says. And this holds as much for what is omitted, as for what is said. (Yes, this is me saying this.)

I think that this is highlighted in the article you linked to. I think I agreed with every word of that. In fact, it accurately describes the sort of position I hold. What I found very important was this:

This doesn't mean that you have to accept just anybody's facts. You can show that what someone else asserts to be a fact is false. But it does mean that you can't argue that someone else's facts are not facts because they are only the product of a perspective, since this will be true of the facts that you perceive as well. What this means then is that arguments about "what happened" have to proceed much as they did before poststructuralism broke in with all its talk about language-based reality and culturally produced knowledge. Reasons must be given, evidence adduced, authorities cited analogies drawn. Being aware that all facts are motivated, believing that people are always operating inside some particular interpretive framework or other is a pertinent argument when what is under discussion is the way beliefs are grounded. But it doesn't give one any leverage on the facts of a particular case. - Jane Tompkins

You see, I think that to some extent those arguing for the cultural viewpoint of science have been guilty of implying that this suffices as a criticism of science. As Tompkins says, being aware of assumptions is pertinent when discussing the way beliefs are grounded. But this is practically tautological and Tomkins herself takes pains to not only point out the background of the historians and witnesses quoted but also comment on how these affect their account. We empricists are aware of our assumptions, but affirm the need for reasons.

This attitude has consequences outside the scientific. I have often taken naive, simplistic viewpoints about politics and ethics. I'm sure that I still do. But suspending my pre-emptive judgement - my intuition, even - and trying to reason and observe, confronts me with "facts" that may jolt me from my narrow mindedness. In fact, I think that this is essential. To reiterate Mordant's point and paraphrase Sokal,

I am a lefty, feminist, green because of the facts, not in spite of them. To fail to argue on these grounds concedes far too much legitimacy to bigotry and intellectual flabbiness.
 
 
Jackie Susann
04:09 / 02.08.02
"My contention there is that despite the cultural bias of observers, a large body of scientific knowledge is observer independent."

I agree, in fact I think it's obvious. But isn't that a comment about application, rather than method? Which is my point; that there is nothing to talk about but application - anything else is even more tautological than this conversation already is. So if I'm going to make a critique of SM, I guess it's that there's nothing internal to the mechanisms of SM that determine how it can be applied, and thus it tends to be universalised in problematic ways. Obviously, this will be dismissed as a critique of application again, but whatever.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:05 / 02.08.02
DPC: I think I'm trying to say that we can deduce some properties of the SM itself, by considering the totality of its applications. As I've said before, science is an enterprise to uncover or project observer independent knowledge about the material universe.

It is a fair question to ask, for instance, whether the SM provides a reasonable framework for achieving this goal or whether it skews interpretation. I know alas will probably object to the word "skews", but as Tompkins says, some facts are false.

Personally, I think that the lack of ethical content in the SM is both a strength and a weakness. On balance, however, I think that leaving science open to abuse is necessary for an open minded approach to knowledge. As far as that is possible.
 
 
some guy
14:47 / 02.08.02
Which is my point; that there is nothing to talk about but application

Then we're really not talking about the SM at all, are we? We're still back to its use by the establishment as the focus of critique. Which is fine, but we would have saved a lot of time deciding that on the first page! :-)
 
 
grant
14:57 / 02.08.02
I'm not sure that's true: there's the sense of using the machine (scientific method) in certain ways to provide certain facts, but there's also the sense in which the machine produces facts (or "facts") based on the way things are fed into it, and the way that the machine only works for (accepts/produces) certain kinds of data.

Which tends to mean that certain kinds of information are excluded from the world view because they don't fit the application process... like the shaman fellow I mentioned back on p. 1. He talks to a plant. There's no hypothesis, other than a loose sort of "this plant has things to show me". And I think what I referred to as "intuition" in that case isn't quite what "intuition" means nowadays - it just seemed like a useful word to describe a process of absorbing a thing-in-entirety and forming a model (or "fact" - the kind of thing the SM produces) without proving or disproving an assertion which may (or may not) have anything to do with what a particular plant does.
 
  

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