BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Feminism and the scientific method

 
  

Page: (1)2345

 
 
odd jest on horn
10:19 / 18.07.02
I was quite interested to hear in Conversation/Losing Weight that feminism had something intersting to say about the scientific method.

I wonder, what is it? And what has the scientific method done to warrant such observations? (Seeing as I thought feminism had to do with the emancipation of women and the scientific method is a concept that is about as abstract as math).

Does feminism have something to say about math too? What are the implications for the emancipation of women of this:

a*a + b*b = c*c where a and b are the lengths of the shorter sides in a right angled triangle sitting in a euclidian plane, and c is the length of longest side.

This is something that can be proven with just five assumption and rigourous application of logic. And none of the assumptions have got the slightest thing to say about a woman's right to control her body, to get the same wages for the same job, to have the same chance as a man to get a higher paying job.
Or is it logic that has anything got to do with those issues?

The scientific method is just based on three assumptions:

1) one can hypothesize
2) one can test the hypothesis
3) if the test does not validate the hypothesis, and the test itself was successful, the hypothesis is falseĆ¾.

the scientific method (as opposed to many scientists) does not concern itself with stuff that can't be tested. It's just an abstract concept. It's a method to test testable hypotheses.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:34 / 18.07.02
And it is TOTALLY INDEPENDENT OF THE SOCIETY THAT CREATED IT.

You know, this typing in capitals thing is strangely therapeutic.
 
 
The Natural Way
10:36 / 18.07.02
But it's all very hard body, isn't it? Gender theory, queer theory, etc. they could be understood as being interested in disolving cannonical laws - they're more interested in the soft zones where dogma collapses, where modernity devours itself - the spaces inbetween. I suppose authors like Jeanette winterson are a good example of this mode of thinking: muddying the spaces between hard facts and the subjective interpretation of same - the dissolution of objective notions of time, self, the universe as machine where everything is measurable and knowable.

In the end, these ideas probably have more in common w/ quantum physics than they do with Newtonian mechanics - they find a poetic affinity there.

Blast me out the water, oh great theory bitches.
 
 
odd jest on horn
10:45 / 18.07.02
Yes, Haus, thanks for pointing that out, I forgot to hammer it in since it's so obvious.

Though whether the scientific method would have been invented at all in e.g a society where people could wish their pants bigger is another issue, and has absolutely nothing got to do with the method itself.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:47 / 18.07.02
I'm confused. I thought Haus was being sarcastic. Or is it jest that is being sarcastic? I can't tell any more...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:51 / 18.07.02
Surely the fact that the scientific method had to be 'invented' (though I prefer to say that it developed) at all indicates that it is anything *but* independent of the society in which it was created...

The stars above and the moral law within chestnut again, I suppose. The objects of scientific method may exist independently of scientific discourse, but does the method? I doubt it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:52 / 18.07.02
Hmmm...I question the wisdom of saying "feminism/gender theory/queer theory is a bit like quantum mechanics as opposed to Newtonian physics". I can see the logic in the comparison, but it creates a series of complicating arguable binaries.

What I would say is that Odd Jest on Horn (is that you as well, mod3? It's all so confusing, what withy spiders and then deadly flies...) appears to define feminism in a way that actually seems to describe a very specific feminism, of a sort advanced in the 1970s and concerned primarily with the role of legislation in advancing or constraining the rights and equality of women. I suspect that Deva has a far wider view of what constitutes feminism or feminisms, including how concepts of language and structures such as logic and mathematics, which are regarded in a Platonic view of the universe as absolute and unaffected by the base material world, inform thinking and self-construction, of men and women both.
 
 
The Natural Way
10:56 / 18.07.02
Which is what I meant - just made it look all dirty.
 
 
odd jest on horn
10:57 / 18.07.02
acha.. So feminism is post-modernism now?
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:01 / 18.07.02
But surely one has to argue a bit more carefully when extrapolating the political into every sphere? Is logic affected by feminism? I have no idea how to justify that in any but the vaguest terms. In particular, I see no evidence to support such a claim.
 
 
Fist of Fun
11:10 / 18.07.02
Allright, what does feminism have to say about the scientific method?
And does queer theory claim to have anything to say on it?

I agree that they undoubtedly have lots to say about what scientists do, where research is headed / aimed at, who becomes a scientist, what we do with scientific discoveries, even how science is interpreted in society. I also agree that they have a lot to say about how people attempt to apply the scientific method (see Haus' earlier comments about independence of society that created it, perhaps? still trying to figure if that was sarcastic or not, either way a good comment, you sly dog).

However, I fail to see what feminism/queer theory have to say about the scientific method itself. It's a bit like saying "What does feminism have to say about a rock?" Not much, really, but it does have a lot to say about how the rock is used, interacted with, interpreted, thrown during riots...
 
 
Ariadne
11:23 / 18.07.02
I'm sure someone will answer this in a much clearer way but I'm so irritated I'm joining in. Rocks were not developed by humankind, were they? Whereas the scientific method was, and by a limited section of humans, too. Humans with a particular power structure, mindset and way of looking at the world. People with another outlook might have developed other ways of researching. Or indeed they might not. But that's the point that you're missing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:29 / 18.07.02
Well, quite. You are assuming that the scientific method, mathematics &c. are just sort of *there*, and that people discover them, pick them up and use them, but they remain unchanged and unchangeable. Like an adamantium crooklock.

Plato advanced a similar belief - that mathematics, being invariable, was the closest representation fo the unchanged and unchanging perfection of the world of Ideas that we in this broken world could perceive.

But it ain't necessarily so.

OJOH - Feminism is not postmodernism. Postmodernism is postmodernism, and if you want to find out what that is and what it has to do with the scientific method you should probably start a new thread. However, some feminisms devote themselves to what might be seen as postmodern fields of study, or appreciate the impact of the postmodern, or are linguistically or socially or indeed scientifically based (Donna Haraway, anyone? Brenda Laurel? Rosanna Stone?), rather than addressing the legislative concerns that you identified as being the purlew of feminism in your first post. You may want to look at the "Feminism: is she Dead" thread, in which the idea was advanced that feminism was no longer necessary because the legislative reforms of the "feminist project" had now been achieved.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:04 / 18.07.02
Going back slightly on what I said earlier, one could also argue that Math, for example, is influenced by capitalism. And one could make a case for this by comparing Soviet math with capitalist math. The soviets, because of the way research was organised, were into much more monolithic ways of solving problems.

I just find it harder to argue the same way for feminism and queer theory unless one accepts that women and gays think in a substantially different way from straight men. Otherwise, its harder to see how more pro-feminist, pro-queer power structures can really say much about the scientific method. Also, we should note, that the scientific method doesn't usually refer to the totality of scientific practice, but rather its underlying philosophy. This philosophy is hard to seriously criticise given the success of science, in its quite limited goals.

These goals might be different and be differently applied by those with different value systems, but this strays more into the politics of scientific application, which is more politics than science.

Of course it is rooted in history, but not every accident and political movement fundamentally affects every human endeavour. Does it?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:57 / 18.07.02
I think it's naive to say that science could not possibly develop differently because it's science. I mean, the Incas were at least to an extent straight men, but *they* thought differently enough not to bother inventing wheeled transport, IIRC...
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:24 / 18.07.02
Of course the development of science - in terms of its accomplishments - is bound to be culturally rooted. Its harder to see the scientific method itself in the same light. Power structures may ensure that the scientific method isn't adopted, but I'm not sure that the resulting enterprise is science as is we know it, Jim.

Its a bit like asking how literature would have developed differently if writing were never invented. Not that this is a nonsensical question, just that its harder to tie in with feminist and gay movements.
 
 
odd jest on horn
13:46 / 18.07.02
humm the wheel is an invention, born of necessity. The wheel did not have much use in the Andes until technology was advanced enough to make roads even there. However the wheel has absolutely no opinions on women or equality and I don't see why your new-fangled brand of feminism should have an opinion on the wheel.

The scientific method is also an invention. Also born of neccessity. The neccessity of a partiarchical society, true. However the scientific method has absolutely no opinions on women or equality and I don't see why your new-fangled brand of feminism should have an opinion on the scientific method.

[inflammatory, but absurd, some people call this "Haus rhetoric"]
Unless, like Lurid pointed out, women have totally different thought structures. You know, like women are *so bad* at math cause their genes would like them to stay home and bake. In which case the scientific method would be an ideal way to approriate power, cause it would go far above their head (or to the side or beneath)
[/blablabla]

And I'd like to see some answers to Fists questions.

quote Haus:
in which the idea was advanced that feminism was no longer necessary because the legislative reforms of the "feminist project" had now been achieved.

Well I don't agree with this. (my old skool brand of) feminism is neccessary until we've got equality in practice, not just according to the books. And vigilance is always needed (abortions in USA anyone?).

And I don't see that happening via some academics, which no-one has heard of, with their heads stuck up their arse.

I'm queer as fuck and I don't see any theory covering me and I don't think my thought processes are all that different from the norm.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:54 / 18.07.02
I think Lurid covers my opinion pretty well - that the scientific method is sufficiently modest in its goals (though some people (ok, males, mostly) would warp these goals) as to be cross-culturally applicable.

As for I think it's naive to say that science could not possibly develop differently because it's science.

I'm not quite so keen on - what alternative to the scientific method (and positivism, I guess) would give us, say flight? or any other reliably repeatable technology/experimental data?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:00 / 18.07.02
Discuss like a grown-up or don't discuss at all, OJOH. The fact that you have never heard of these people could, after all, be a reference to your ignorance, not necessarily their obscurity. Also, since you have never heard of them, how can you tell that they have their heads up their arses? One of the points made in the thread I suggested you look at rather than knee-jerking; that the aims and intentions of feminism were not limited to a particular finite set of objectives. Your "old-skool" feminism is *a* feminism, not necessarily *the* feminism. If you can't handle that concept, we are unlikely to get very much further. This is not "Haus rhetoric", it is a simple statement.

Oh, and accusing an interlocutor of "rhetoric" is the first sign of a) a weak and muddled argument and b) a weak and muddled mind. It's a milder version of the "and I suppose you'd bring back Hitler?" conversational short-circuit.

I would be interested to see what Deva's take on this is, since s/he made the original statement, but since you have demonstrated now that you cannot actually talk about something without losing your temper and throwing your toys out of the pram, I don't think anyone would blame hir if s/he steered clear of the whole mess.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:08 / 18.07.02
Before we go too far down the angry road, lets all calm down. I'd actually like to discuss this and I'll be robust since I think it is the best way to advance an argument and my own understanding of someone else's position. Doesn't mean anyone has to be upset or insulted in the process.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:10 / 18.07.02
Todd: Honestly? I have no idea. But that's kind of the thing. In a world where science is constructed around the scientific method, the scientific method is the basis of all scientific constructions. You'd need to be *wery* good at science, perhaps, even to start thinking in those terms. And maybe there is no other possible method, but then for a long time there was no way to split the atom or breathe underwater. I'm just proposing the possibility that the sciences could have evolved differently, or could yet evolve differently.

(Funnily enough, I am suddenly thinking of the "Worlds of Null-A", sci-fi books, which I have heard cited but never read...)

So, yes, perhaps the scientific method is necessary to invent flight. I certainly couldn't extrapolate how another method might have gone about it. But then, maybe another method would have doscovered something more useful to the aims and objectives it set out than flight would be.

*Shrugs shoulders* I dunno. As I told Lurid only two days ago, my advanced maths GCSE was like 'Nam.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
14:25 / 18.07.02
I suppose what raises my hackles a bit is when people say that (and this is of course being reductive) that any techne invented during patriarchal dominance (or for that matter, capitalist dominance) is automatically somehow tainted by association.

The only alternative I can think of to the scientific method is something like homeopathy. Or Magick.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
14:29 / 18.07.02
But then again, I guess I judge the success of either of those based on "scientific" criteria.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:37 / 18.07.02
Its a difficult question. Is there an alternative to the scientific method?

Clearly there are ways of developing technology and advancing knowledge which do not rely on the scientific method, but I'm not aware of any such system which could realistically be said to be a competitor. Not in terms of achievements but in terms of potential.

One should remember that science is concerned with a very particular type of knowledge and is also a strong philosophical assertion. Namely, that it is possible to gain observer independent repeatable data from the Universe. If you drop the goal, then there are definitely systems which could be said to be more successful. You might want a low-tech green society for instance, where technological progress was pretty stagnant.

But if you accept the goal, then doesn't an alternative also have to propose a philosophical counter? This seems very close to arguing about the nature of the Universe. As I've said, this is bound to be a difficult proposition given the success of science. Its interesting to note, that my argument here relies very much on my historical position.

But given the validation of the scientific method, what does feminism have to say? I honestly don't know.
 
 
grant
15:06 / 18.07.02
On alternatives to the scientific method: South American shamans often claim to discover healing properties for plants (which are borne out by later scientific experiments) by talking to the spirit of the plants - one example of something intuitive & holistic reaching a similar goal to a scientific process (using medicine to cure illness) in a completely different way.
 
 
grant
15:26 / 18.07.02
It might also be worth mentioning that one of the *really* attractive threads in political feminism when I was in school was the idea of inclusion rather than exclusion.
Science tends to work on elimination - Occam's razor and all that.
A feminist truth-seeking might operate by including intuition/magickal method and integrating it with science. (immediate illustration comes to mind involves Terrence McKenna describing his brain tumor as feeling like a mushroom growing in his head - if that sort of description could stand side-by-side with x-rays and form a basis for total treatment, spiritual & physical, then I think you'd be closer to a "feminist" method.)
A lot of scientific discovery seems to take place this way, by the way, with a holistic flash (all the pieces fall together) followed by years of rigorous tests.

I'd also say the idea of "peer-review" is probably a feminist instrument as well*, in that it tends to be community based and anti-monolithic.

*(in that same inclusionary, early-90s new-historicism sense - and part of the problem with "feminist method" is that there's more than one feminism.)
 
 
Fist of Fun
18:04 / 18.07.02
Rocks were not developed by humankind, were they? Whereas the scientific method was, and by a limited section of humans, too. Humans with a particular power structure, mindset and way of looking at the world. People with another outlook might have developed other ways of researching. Or indeed they might not. But that's the point that you're missing.

I think what Ariadne and others are missing is the distinction between sources of knowledge and methods of testing the truth of that knowledge.

The scientific method is not a way of researching anything, or discovering knowledge. It is a way of testing theories. It's form derives from the essential difference of science from mathematics:
--Mathematics is logical conclusions from a set of a priori assumptions. This is why (subject to errors in the logic) you can be certain of mathematical conclusions, albeit that they don't have any direct representation in the material world.
--Science is a set of theories about the real world which are empirically tested. This is why you never have an absolute guaranteed truth in science - the theory might work in all the circumstances you have tested it in, but you might have just fluked out with a coincidence. This is why you can only disprove scientific theories (and even then, the theory might be correct, you might just not realise that something else was interfering with the experiment.)Karl Popper did a lot of good stuff on this in the 1950's.

As to it being developed by "a limited section of humans, too. Humans with a particular power structure, mindset and way of looking at the world" - was it really? The scientific method has been independently concieved in different locations at different times by different people. The Babylonians, Greeks, Egyptians, the Rennaisence (spelling!), the 16th, 17th and 18th century European enlightenments, but also a number of pre-colonial Indian scientists, Chinese scientist. I would be most surprised if the Incas didn't have some sort of proto-scientists working on their irrigation and building projects because it would be almost impossible to do all that they did without some understanding of the materials sciences. Undoubtedly all of these people had difficulties in applying the method - they had poor data, or did not realise that they had made certain assumptions - but that doesn't mean that in principle they were not applying the scientific method. Every time a child tries to build a treehouse and thinks "I reckon that branch is strong enough, but I'll test it by jumping on it" the child is applying the scientific method in a crude form.

In a sense, the scientific theory really is "just there" as Haus put it. If you have an idea, and you want to test it, what else do you do? The only alternatives I can think of are:
(i) Intuition - but just think about it for a second and you realise that isn't a test of the theory, it's just a test of whether your intuition is the same as the theory;
(ii) Accepting authority - which just passes the buck of testing.
Unless somebody else can think up any other ways of testing theories, I still fail to see what feminism / queer theory can say about the scientific method per se.

What I can see feminism having something very interesting to say about is How people come up with the theories that are tested in the first place. Now that would be interesting - 'feminine' intuition -v- 'masculine' random/brute experimentation.

Also, feminism might have something to say about the fact that people tend to misinterpret the power of the scientific method. The association of 'absolute truth' with something which the scientific method has only not disproved - possibly not disproved in such an exhaustive manner that it is now generally accepted that there is no better explanation and it appears to work universally and it ties in with all the other things we have exhaustively tested but that's all and it might be disproved tomorrow. Does this fetishisation of 'scientific truths' derive from a patriarchal hierarchical society? In a more liberal/feminine society would it be psychologically easier for scientists to accept the old orthodoxy had been disproved?
 
 
YNH
18:20 / 18.07.02
Since we're being all radical and shit...

The scientific method and peer review may be distinctly anti-feminist. If the, what, six steps taught in US public schools are the only way to advance and prove new knowledge, then any alternative ideology ought to question its authority - y'know, dig around and interogate why this way is taken for granted and all others are compared specifically to it. And, of course, even if the method is sound, every individual employs it subjectively. Hence, peer review, right?


Peer review, while appearing democratic and distributed, is in reality a simple tool of a hierarchical system meant to prevent outsiders from asserting themselves. Who designates a peer, for example? Any sufficiently radical idea can be supressed if it is simply not repeated. Oddly, faulty conclusions might also stand for the same reason (I'm reminded of "Lesbians inner ears are shaped differently," and the British woman who insists that children must be sexed and surgically altered at birth.)

Before anyone goes all apeshit claiming these are exceptional cases, we might want to consider why alternative energy production is underfunded, why the patents for electric automobiles and ceramic engines have not not been used, stuff like that? Or, you know, why equal rights are difficult to come by even in light of scientifically presentable evidence that, say, blacks and sikhs and women and gays are human, or do the same work as straight white christian men.

It's difficult, as others have mentioned, to separate the science from the culture it's embedded in. This is precisely why feminisms might be concern with it. What's thew use of defending a method that is presumably complicit in inequality, polution, and planetary destruction. Sounds nasty to me.

A better question might be, "How do we prove that scientific method is not at fault?" Can we do this scientifically, without relying on the assumption that the method is correct? If not, if said method cannot defend itself...
 
 
YNH
18:23 / 18.07.02
the above written while FOF posted, and does not in any way seek to interfere with or comment up that post...
 
 
Persephone
19:07 / 18.07.02
Here's my shot at what feminism might say about the scientific method:

What is the scientific method about, for starters. Testing testable hypotheses, that's fair enough. But what are you about when you are testing testable hypotheses? You are about getting knowledge. What you get is power, which is fine.

Say that the scientific method is something that, in its beginnings, was practiced almost exclusively by men. Possibly because women's bodies were tied up with childbearing and childrearing. So you have this power-getting method in the hands of one of the sexes --and importantly, the sex that has time on their hands and possibly feels impotent because their bodies are not tied up in childbearing or childrearing. And possibly are attracted to this and other power-getting methods, like hunting, which can be fetishized and whole cultures built around.

Then on the other hand, what is the relation between the scientific method and untestable hypotheses? No relation? I don't think so. After all, the scientific method is that which divides hypotheses into testable and untestable; the scientific method, in a sense, created "untestable" hypotheses. And testable hypotheses. Untestable hypotheses are not friendly to the scientific method, and I believe that science returns the favor by being hostile back. And what that has to do with men and women I only have a feeling about, which is just like me.

The scientific method is a selfish meme like any other. It wants you to think it is "just there." But it was born out of something, or it grew big and strong out of something, and that something might have been man v. woman, and that's what feminism has to say about it.
 
 
Fist of Fun
07:54 / 19.07.02
Untestable hypotheses are not friendly to the scientific method, and I believe that science returns the favor by being hostile back. Persephone

Hmmm... Interesting. My knee jerk reaction was pretty much that of a materialist:
--The only thing a hypothesis needs to be testable is to make a claim about the material world . Therefore if it isn't testable, it means that it doesn't say anything about the material world and it doesn't have any particular use.

On second thoughts, of course, that's rubbish. Lots of things can say something meaningful / useful but not about the material world - see, for example, emotions, mathematics, art. Usually I have absolutely not problem with such a statement. Indeed, one of my favourite philosophers, Austen, made his name in the late 1940's and (I think) early 1950's by pointing out that language can have meaning / power (in the sense of the ability to perform actions) without being 'testable' against the real world. [This was the big break in Oxford from the Hegel/Russell theories of meaning in logic, and followed on from the collapse of Logical Positism (see my P.S. at the bottom for another reference). Very heavy stuff if you're interested. Austen's a lot more readable and, to my small mind, makes a lot more sense.]

Now, my reaction might just be because I have a tendency to get annoyed at people misunderstanding the basic principles of science - mea culpa. On the other hand, maybe it does reflect something in my mind that tends to give greater weight to the material world. And that is obviously something feminism can say something about.

What the scientific method is, however, is the only way I can think of to test statements about the physical world.

. And, of course, even if the method is sound, every individual employs it subjectively. Hence, peer review, right? Peer review, while appearing democratic and distributed, is in reality a simple tool of a hierarchical system meant to prevent outsiders from asserting themselves. Who designates a peer, for example? ynh

Hmmm... again... interesting.
I agree. Peer review is what I would describe as a second level truth verifciation problem. If you have a test and you perform it then fine, you have verified (or, rather, not disproved) the hypothesis - but the problem at this stage is verifying the claim that (a) the test tests what you say it did (b) you performed the test (c) you performed the test correctly. Review has to be performed, but who can review it other than a peer?

The first point is usually not too difficult for an outsider to break into. They just point out a flaw in the test - say, something it doesn't take into account that could affect the result. It's pretty difficult to avoid having to take account of such a claim, once it has been made (OK, difficulties in making it and getting it noticed by anybody that counts, fine - but letters to the scientific journals can usually do the job even for outsiders.)

The last two points are more difficult - does anybody trust the reviewer and, frankly, do they have the resources? The former point is a real oligarchary issue, because people only trust you if you have proved yourself in the orthodoxy. The latter? Well, you don't get research grants by being fluffy.

So, yes, peer review is a facet of the implementation of the scientific method which I agree does have significant feminist questions.

A better question might be, "How do we prove that scientific method is not at fault?" Can we do this scientifically, without relying on the assumption that the method is correct? If not, if said method cannot defend itself... ynh

A very important question, I think (as do other, bigger brains than me, such as Popper, Ayer and the like). The answer, I think, is "the proof is in the pudding", or to put it a little less glibly:
The scientific method is a way of testing the truth of statements about the material world. To disprove that statement one would have to show that it produced incorrect results and/or allowed untrue statements through. Whilst the impelementation of the scientific method undoubtedly does so, the general tendency is that it has resulted in a large number of extremely complicated and non-obvious statements about the material world which in turn predict other highly non-obvious (non/counter-intuitive) statements which work, i.e. appear to be true on everything we know.

I cannot think of any better test or, more fundamentally, any flaw in the above test. For the moment the scientific method has on numerous occasions not been disproved by its own standards so, on its own standards, it's good (or at least, not bad).

P.S. if you want an example of a test which failed itself, see A.J.Ayer and the Logical Positivism / Vienna School movement in philosophy in the 1930's. "A statement is meaningful only if it can be tested against the material world." It doesn't take much to point out that that statement cannot be tested against the material world, but bugger me they got a lot of print out of the idea for over a decade!
 
 
Fist of Fun
07:55 / 19.07.02
And I'm sorry all my posts are so long.
 
 
alas
17:25 / 19.07.02
hurrah for the ever-perceptive persephone. I also would say that the scientific method is based upon the key step of "observation" and the assumption that observation can aspire to being "objective." That's perhaps the knottiest part of the method. Much of feminism,and other philosophical traditions, really believe in the social / cultural construction of reality--which is not to say that there's no "there there"--no "material" world, but that it is impossible to disentangle the physical world from the cultural worldview--we are simply extremely unlike to notice, to observe, things that we haven't been trained to view as "important."
 
 
YNH
17:48 / 19.07.02
Thanks, Fist; it's nice to see somebody drag out the early century philosophy of science folks. Has anyone dealt with the, um, larger part of the question? You/they seem to have demonstrated that the scientific method does a job and does it well, but what about the results of that job? (polution, exploitation, &c.)

It seems, as a method of solving material problems, the scientific method ignores certain implications. It's entirely possible that this was or has become deliberate.
 
 
The Monkey
19:42 / 19.07.02
I have a chicken-and-egg problem with some of the claims made in this thread.

First of all, can we actually generate of model of "female" versus "male" cognitive processes seperate from socialization. While we have all heard of the MRI/PET scan data that shows that adult males and females use different brain regions to negotiate an answer to a question or to solve a problem, there is still no resolution of how much of this seperation is nature or nuture. While I have heard of endless attributed differences, I have never seen justification that these norms of cognition across gender are anything other than socialized.
And I am, in fact, unamused by some of the stereotypic attributions made regarding supposedly *female* cognition, most of which seem to simply place positive spins upon the discriminatory saws of the Victorian Age.

Old Version: Women are less capable of rationality.
New Version: Women are more likely to reason via intuitive and social processes.

Old Version: Women are less capable of emotional detachment and objectivity
New Version: Women possess greater empathy and understanding of social process.

Why are we reclaiming, without rigorous skepticism, these categories?

Furthermore, I fail to see the justification for integrating the scientific method as ideal structure and its [false] deployment in historical contexts: in other words, many of the evils committed in the name of science are deviations from the ideals of empirical thought, with the language and display rules of objectivity sort of sprinkled over a pragmatic agenda to give the facade of scientific validity. Thus the issue is not that the basal premises of rational empiricism are flawed in some fundamentally patriarchal fashion, but that the execution thereof by fallible individuals--some possessing patriarchal agendas. One can looks at the very "scientific" research that supposedly proved the subordinacy of women and see how culture, predjudice, and good old-fashioned lack of perspective shapes the interpretation of the raw data. Rational empiricism is precisely as fallible as the inputted assumptions of its wielders...but this is not uniquely patriarchal. The facade of empiricism can be used to justify any position. Then again, any ideological system can be twisted to serve a crudely pragmatic agenda and has.

Finally, is it really *fair* to set up a critique distinction between an ideology that has gone through the effortful process of being deployed by a thermodynamically-bounded world, and an empty set? Until an actual set of qualities can be determined to formulate a "feminist scientific-rational structure," the comparison of the former with extant empiricism is meaningless. As is, the proposed feminist structure exists only as a sort of Holy Grail that will resolve the difficulties generated by empiricism...but *how* will it do that, and what will the larger ramifications be? What new snafus will result from a different set of evaluative testing. From the perspective of social theory, Soviet math and engineering (to say nothing of psychology) was a revolutionary step. Yet in practicum it was unworkable...or at least cataclysmically less efficient than the products of traditional math and engineering. Of course, the Soviet resolution to this problem was not to back down from their war against thermodynamics and metal stress, but rather to arrest, torture, and execute engineers that committed "sabotage" (or "wrecking" as it was call in the Promparty trials) by not fulfilling the unreasonable...nay, impossible...demands of the scientifically untrained Party members.
So the question is, as with existing empiricism, how will the inputted assumptions of the testers influences the interpretation of the outcome within a new scientific-rational format? Furthermore, within a problem-solving context will a new reasoning system be able to match or outperform rational empiricism in terms of replication across context, consistency of results across trials and applications. Until an alternate empirical structure actually solidifies into an evaluative process that can be field tested, the concept is little more than a wish-fulfilment fantasy.
 
  

Page: (1)2345

 
  
Add Your Reply