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Lost - Season 6 (Spoilers)

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
buttergun
13:07 / 13.05.10
I know I keep plugging this guy's work but I still think he's doing a phenomenal job outlining just exactly why this season has been so dire:

Review of this week's episode

Choice quote:

"Wait, really? REALLY? We are two episodes away from the series finale of Lost, with time to explain any of the remaining mysteries running out like Dharma donuts in the hatch pantry when Hurley’s put on guard duty, and this is what we get? We are two episodes away from the series finale of Lost, with an entire episode dedicated to the eternal (and awesome) struggle between Jacob and the Man in Black, which could help to explain what the island is, what either of them wants, why any of this is happening, and this is what we get? Sheeeeeeeesh. Hey, Allison Janey, why don’t you bash MY face in with a rock while you’re at it!!!"
 
 
buttergun
13:54 / 13.05.10
Another choice quote, which really sums it all up:

"I have supreme confidence that all of my questions will be answered in the final two episodes of this show. I’m sure that the creators are just pilling a dozen more mysteries on top of the hundreds of remaining mysteries at the very last minute so that it is so fun and exciting when literally everything is explained next week in 44 minutes. I’m a SARCASM MONSTER.)"
 
 
NewMyth
16:44 / 13.05.10
If I might join in... ^_^
... and agree with Buttergun re "Really, REALLY stupid."

So the secret of the island is a strange glowing cave... the crazy lady tells them if you enter, it is worse than death... BS.

So it has to be guarded, and then turns the MIB into the formerly awe-inspiring smoke monster? BS. At least he had the drive and curiosity to want to leave that crazy place, smart enough to think there is a world out there.

How the heck did she burn down the make-shift village, and bonk everyone dead on the head? BS.

Maybe SHE can turn into a smoke monster?

Oh, yeahhh.... and why was Dharma continuing to drop food supplies off?

And to think, during the fun nuttiness of the first couple of years, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt, that they really did have it all -- at least "basically," "essentially" -- worked out. BS.

None of my RL or online friends are still watching... and I'm feeling rather embarrassed. But it is still admittedly interesting, like a bad auto accident. And the leads are good actors going through all the BS.

I skimmed a recent Wired magazine which had an article, interviewing the writers. They admitted that not everything would be answered. They said they've said all they are going to say about the numbers. Misdirection? Doubtful.

One thing, when V comes on afterwards, V seems better plotted and thought out than it probably is.

Flash Forward is actually rather cool, and doesn't seem to have the Lost BS, but I've been burned following one mystery show, so I'm taking FF in without much passion.
 
 
Mistoffelees
21:16 / 13.05.10
It looks as if they'll drop the ball in the finale. That episode was a joke of George Lucas proportions.

It'll be as bad as the BSG finale, that's what I predict.
 
 
the Fool
11:59 / 14.05.10
Honestly I didn't mind it. As far as the overriding question of 'what is the island?' its tied up in a neat fashion, with a logical vector for final conflict. Of all the possible outcomes to the question it least gives a strong (if slightly ham-handedly approached) motivation to the uber plot.

As I said, I thought it was alright. Would aliens have been better? lol!
 
 
Evil Scientist
22:07 / 14.05.10
So it has to be guarded, and then turns the MIB into the formerly awe-inspiring smoke monster? BS. At least he had the drive and curiosity to want to leave that crazy place, smart enough to think there is a world out there.

My interpretation was that someone entering the "soul glow" (TM Coming To America) released the smoke monster.

I'm holding out for a totally insane Prisoner style finisher. But am bound to be sorely diapointed.
 
 
Mistoffelees
11:53 / 15.05.10
It was all a computer simulation of someone dreaming in a shower while vomiting snow globes.
 
 
buttergun
01:28 / 16.05.10
The only thing that could save it is if they brought in Kenneth Anger and Alejandro Jodorowsky to collaborate on the finale.
 
 
Mistoffelees
07:07 / 16.05.10
An ending like Holy Mountain would be perfect.
 
 
Mistoffelees
08:23 / 19.05.10
That was much better than last week. Finally, Desmond and Ben are back in business. "He doesn't get to save his daughter" Nice!

And don't forget: Finale is this sunday!
 
 
buttergun
13:56 / 19.05.10
I agree. I do hope we get to find out how alt-verse Desmond has become such a deus ex machina. Did Jacob appear to him and explain what was going on in a succinct few seconds?

More Miles series-satire with his: "Back in the seventies, aka last week."
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:58 / 19.05.10
I think he became Super-Desmond when Widmore shot him full of electromagnetic juice earlier in the season. In that moment, I think, due to his already documented ability to perceive time in non-linear fashion, made him perceive both realities, as well as the future/past in both of them and became fully aware not only of the path that should be taken but of the path that he would eventually/already had follow, and thus just act accordingly in both timelines, very Dr. Manhattan-like. I told you he would fix everything.


The episode was awesome. The revealing of the chosen replacement took me by surprise, I was sure this was going to be a last act revelation, with a twist. Well, may it's still going to be.

Alterverse Super-Desmond assembing the gang all Mission: Impossible style was the paragon of cool. "We... are going to a concert"

Ben going evil again does feel right, and he's mighty good at it, but I'm betting there's one more doublecrossing in him. He's sooooo Darth Vader-ish.

"I'm going to destroy the island..."


So, the finale is on Sunday? Hmmm, good
 
 
wicker woman
03:44 / 20.05.10
Jacob telling Sawyer "No, shut the hell up, your life sucked" is now officially one of my favorite Lost moments...
 
 
Tsuga
02:31 / 24.05.10
Well, that's over.
 
 
wicker woman
03:25 / 24.05.10
Messy ending to a huge, sprawling mess of a series. Loved it, but kind of unsure how to feel about it right now, if that makes any sense whatsoever. Love that '#1, #2' line between Ben and Hurley at the end.

Not sure if overseas viewers got to see the Target shopping chain's commercials that were playing during the finale, but they were pretty great. Links:

Keyboard

Smokey warning

There's another involving a fleeing boar that serves as an advert for barbecue sauce, but I couldn't find the link for it.
 
 
NewMyth
13:50 / 24.05.10
*sigh*

So now LockeMonster decided to destroy the island.
Jack went along with him, though he was going to kill him.
They had Desmond remove the stone cork, because only he could do it.
Tremors worse than we get in SoCal began.
Jack killed Locke... but Smokey didn't vacate the body.
They went back to the cave, and Jack re-corked the island.
Um, why did they uncork it, then cork it again? I dunno.

So the bomb hadn't set them sideways in time, but into Limbo? It was all in Jack's head as he died?
I dunno. Mystical gobbledegook at The End.

A messy end to a messy show. I had a lot of fun during the six year ride, but...

*sigh*
 
 
buttergun
14:02 / 24.05.10
I'm really in a quandary with this. For one, I do like how they gave everyone a happy ending. But on the other hand...damn!

So the alt-verse was a red herring all along, a sort of limbo "you created for yourselves." This is frustrating enough, that we were toyed with on this end, just for yet another "shocking" Lost reveal at the end...but WHEN did the Losties create this limbo world? And don't you think that might've been an important sequence to show us fans?

And also, if they DID create this limbo...then why did they make it so they had to remember themselves, why did they make themselves blank slates in it...and why did they create a fake son for Jack, why was Martin Kimi the assassin there...why was everyone at the same age as they'd been in the season finale, when according to Jack's father, some of them died "long after" the island?

The more I think about it the more frustrated I become. Maybe there will be a spinoff, "After Lost" like "After MASH," all about Hurley and Ben on the island, with occasional appearances by Ghost Jack and following up with everyone's lives after the finale...
 
 
buttergun
18:23 / 24.05.10
That being said I just pre-ordered the Complete Collection on Blu-Ray...
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
21:42 / 24.05.10
You really *aren't* very bright, are you?

The 'LAverse' plot is limbo. The explanation given is that they all needed each other to be able to move on to whatever was next after they'd all died, some during the course of the show, some (those who survived) long afterwards. Christian tells Jack that the time they spent together on the island was the most important time of their lives, hence why the above was necessary. Each character has their own little epiphany in limbo that allows them to remember their lives and gradually, become part of Team Desmond in assisting the others to do likewise.

Now, whether you like the above is another thing entirely, but not understanding it? Pretty clear cut in the narrative of the episode.
 
 
NewMyth
01:26 / 25.05.10
From the beginning, the producers categorically stated that the survivors were not dead -- were not in heaven, hell, or limbo -- so they essentially went back on their word.
 
 
wicker woman
03:33 / 25.05.10
Er... how do you figure? As Jack pretty clearly stated above, the alternate LA was the limbo, and everything that happened on the island since the 1st season really happened. As in, they weren't dead. They made this painfully clear in the last episode. So how you interpret that as the producers "going back on their word", I have no idea.

If you didn't like the finale, fine, whatever; that's your call. But why purposely misinterpret what was going on as an excuse for your dislike? It seems pretty pointless.
 
 
Red Concrete
08:09 / 25.05.10
I'm not sure what happened, plot-wise, in this series. I'm not sure what, if any, the overarching theme or message was.

But I bet film and TV students and scholars will be poring over it for years dissecting why it was so popular. It was a sociological phenomenon. Looking back through a haze of memory over the past few years, it feels like the whole thing was a mishmash of clips specifically designed to keep people intrigued, titllated, hooked, cliff-hung, like morphine addicted lab mice pressing a lever.. (me included) And the details of the plot-line are about as interesting as studying the shape of the lever. Fascinating!
 
 
NewMyth
08:57 / 25.05.10
@wicker woman: Yes, I know the LAverse was Limbo, and the island events really happened. Which meant that half of the events of this last season took place in Limbo. They ENDED with all the main characters in Limbo-Land. To me, they found a lame loophole to play with our expectations.

In my opinion, they cheated. Limbo did not logically follow: if LAverse was Limbo, how did the bomb send them there? It couldn't have blown them up, life on the island continued. Bad drama, no foreshadowing.

"...why purposely misinterpret what was going on as an excuse for your dislike?"

What I am actually doing, is trying to UNDERSTAND their interpretation, which to me makes little sense. If it had made sense, and been good drama, I would appreciate the ending, even if I didn't like it.

It's obvious that the first 4 years or so of JJ Abrams, and the revolving door of assorted writers and producers, had been BSing the audience so as to create drama and strangeness. They had left Lindelof and Cuse scrambling for explanations, obviously retconning with all the Jacob nonsense.

They had to wing it -- i.e., get mysterious and mystical -- and hope no one saw the emperor was naked.

Anyway, wicker woman, I love your line above: "Messy ending to a huge, sprawling mess of a series."

Yes, indeed.
 
 
Dead Megatron
09:48 / 25.05.10
if LAverse was Limbo, how did the bomb send them there?

The bomb didn't send them there. They went there after their respective time of death in the real-verse. They just started telling the limbo-verse story after the season finale in which the bomb supposedly exploded as missdirection. In fact, the bomb never exploded, Faraday's plan never worked, and that fade to white at the 5th season finale was a missdirection as well. The whole alter/limbo-verse storyline was a missdirection as a matter of fact. Desmond was never Super-Desmond, he just went into shock after being EMP-ed by Widmore and thought that by removing the Cork (now official name), he would be magically teleported back home and that is what he meant when he talked to Jack pre-uncorking. People remembering things in the limbo-verse was not them remembering their lives up to that point and realizing they were in an altered timeline; it was them remembering their entire lives until their deaths, whenever that might have been, during the course of the series or in 2057, and realizing they were dead and in limbo. And I think, storytelling-wise, that was blood genious. It is also interesting to notice that many characters remain in limbo - one of them willing so - and will have to figure it out for themselves eventually without the help of Fake-Super-Desmond. Jack's son was probably only part of the cenery, and the Ghost Charlie that visited Hurley in the mental institution might have been just an actual hallucination. He did have a history with imaginary friends...


You know what, it may not have been the hard science fiction resolution that some might have prefered, and did fall in the "it was actually God" soft science fiction cliché*, but I liked. It was good to see all finding their happy ending, even if it was after death. Hell, when Vincent the dog laid besides dying Jack, perhaps knowing what he was going through and choosing to keep him company so that he wouldn't have to do it alone, made me cry like a little kid watching Bambi...




* I think this cliché, that we also recently saw in Battlestar Gallactica, comes from the fact the most science fiction writers, unlike most scientists, are ultimately suspicious of technology and its implication to Man's purity vis-a-vis the Natural Order. They always think we are going to pay for our Hubris and that the actual way to find "the" answer is to let go and have it answered by some higher power. Most science fiction is actually quite supersticious in that sense. Clarke managed to avoid this cliché, being such an activist atheist, but he often enviosioned God-like advanced alien civilization and tech, so he doesn't count. Asimov,as far as I can tell did a good job too, although he did have the psychohistory concept, which was a bit Deus Ex Machina.
 
 
buttergun
13:04 / 25.05.10
If it helps at all, I've since discovered that the producers intended the alt-verse to BE an alt-verse and then, per Lost tradition, changed their mind at the 11th hour, and made the alt-verse into a sort of purgatorial limbo.

Which of course rendered most everything in the alt-verse as moot...for:

If the Losties "created" the limbo for themselves, then why the long process of "remembering" themselves?

Why'd Jack have a son?

Why were murderers like Martin Keamy there?

Why was Faraday's mom so knowledgeable and elusive about the alt-verse?

All these things rendered moot, again, in the 11th hour.

My prediction is as the weeks pass and the fuzzy-wuzzy feeling of that finale fades away, people are going to be left with anger over the fast one the producers pulled on us...for no reason other than lack of forethought.
 
 
Dead Megatron
15:10 / 25.05.10
If it helps at all, I've since discovered that the producers intended the alt-verse to BE an alt-verse and then, per Lost tradition, changed their mind at the 11th hour, and made the alt-verse into a sort of purgatorial limbo.

Really? Where did you learn that? Because it seems to me that they knew what they were doing very well and that you're full of shit, to br frank. If you have evidence if such fact, please provide links(PS. your own or other disgrunted fans' comments in another board do not count)

If the Losties "created" the limbo for themselves, then why the long process of "remembering" themselves?

What about the concept of "limbo" don't you understand? They created it because it was a way for them to gradually get a grip on the fact they're dead. And it wasn't that long, they stayed there one week in total, actually.

Why'd Jack have a son?

Because it was his "perfect life", hence, a kid.

Why were murderers like Martin Keamy there?

Were they? Keamy was "killed" in the limbo-verse, so he couldn'be really there could he? Maybe he was just part of the illusion, just like Jack's kid. And besides, who says murderers can't go to limbo, or to heaven for that matter? As long as they repent they are on the clear, and limbo (aka "purgatory") is the place to do just that. I mean, Ben was there and he killed quite a few.

Why was Faraday's mom so knowledgeable and elusive about the alt-verse?

Because she realized she was dead but was too afraid to move forward due to all fucked up things she did. She even tried to prevent Desmond from figuring it out himselfe because she was afraid Faraday would left the limbo with him. And for her, that place was exactly the place to attone for all that she did to her son. Ben also chose to stay after finding out the truth, for his daughter's sake.

You know what, I think you're just pissed off it wasn't aliens in the end and are now in trolling mode. Probably in a lot of boards.
 
 
buttergun
15:32 / 25.05.10
And you know what, I think you're coming off like a prissy ass.

Why'd Jack have a son? (Really think about that one. Jack DIED in the finale. So if the Losties "created" this limbo for themselves -- whenever THAT happened -- then Jack didn't take a part in it; he was dead. So who gave him a son, finale-supporters? Who? Vincent?)

Your whole argument that the limbo was a "perfect world" and etc is groundless because we never saw any of it happen. Let me ask you -- if you created a "perfect world/limbo," which Christian Shephard clearly stated the Losties had done -- then would YOU populate it with murderers and thugs and etc? Would you have crime and people getting shot and on and on?

To clarify, what is most upsetting us out here is not that long-forgotten mysteries have not been resolved (ie Michael and Walt, the moveable island, etc into infinity), it's that mysteries INTRODUCED IN THE PAST FEW EPISODES have been glossed over and rendered moot.

Why make such a big fuss about Smoke Monster Locke and Jacob and then resolve it all with a lame fistfight, answering nothing about who MiB was and etc?
 
 
buttergun
15:34 / 25.05.10
And again, just to stress this -- your arguments (about why Keamy would be there and etc) would have value...if the limbo-verse had been created by a god or whatever.

But it was clearly stated that the Losties themselves had created this limbo-verse.

(I guess they did it during a commercial break?)
 
 
Dead Megatron
16:27 / 25.05.10
Really think about that one. Jack DIED in the finale. So if the Losties "created" this limbo for themselves -- whenever THAT happened -- then Jack didn't take a part in it; he was dead. So who gave him a son, finale-supporters? Who? Vincent?

You're being repetitive. "There is no now here", remember? Stop thinking linear time.

answering nothing about who MiB was and etc

There was a whole episode answering who MiB was, remember?

Your whole argument that the limbo was a "perfect world" and etc is groundless because we never saw any of it happen. Let me ask you -- if you created a "perfect world/limbo," which Christian Shephard clearly stated the Losties had done -- then would YOU populate it with murderers and thugs and etc? Would you have crime and people getting shot and on and on?

They created the limbo because they were confused about their death, and thereforne created a dreamlike reality that mixed their concept of "perfect life", with their fears and their unresolved issues.

Besides, remember "Matrix": TDid you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization Get it? You only have to substitute "peak of your civilization" with "most important time of your lives". It's not that difficult to grasp. You MUST be pretending not to get it for trolling reasons, you just can't be that obtuse...

And you know what, I think you're coming off like a prissy ass.

Oh my God. I've become Haus....
 
 
Dead Megatron
16:32 / 25.05.10
Also:

But it was clearly stated that the Losties themselves had created this limbo-verse.

Yeah, but it was never stated the it wasONLY the Losties who created it. Other people could have been involved. Anyway, I still think not every person in there was real. Keamy wasn't real. The guy kicking Boone's ass wasn't real.

And it wasn't every Lostie who went there. Michael and Walt didn't go there. (Hell, Michael is probably still haunting the island) Paulo and Nick didn't go there.

And about who Walt was: he was a kid born with psychic abilities who the Others thought they could use but couldn't control and decided to send away from the island. Mistery solved...
 
 
buttergun
17:31 / 25.05.10
More fine argumentation but again, it is all based off of your own imagination and some incredible strengths of extrapolation.

My argument in turn is based off of what the characters themselves stated.

"You created this as a place to find one another..."

That's it. An entire season's worth of tedium tossed off in one single line. What's funny is that such lazy writing could STILL cause rabid fans to speculate on and on, explaining everything away. Doing the writers's job for them.

Nowhere were we lead to believe that the "non major characters" in limbo-verse were "imaginary" or "not real."

Beyond the concept of "thinking in linear time," Jack in the limbo-verse was, obviously, there after the Jack of the "real world" had died. His season-long coming to grips with his death was in reality a massive hoodwink pulled by the producers -- the entire limbo-verse was a red herring.

Jack's son is the biggest gaffe. Again, no matter of imagination can salvage this. When did Jack ever claim he wanted a son? How could this entail Jack's "perfect world?" And again beyond the whole "don't think in linear time," are you asking us to believe that Jack, once alive in the limbo-verse, went back in time and created this "perfect world" for his freshly-dead self? This is beyond idiotic.

As for my MiB complaint, of course I know we had an "entire episode devoted to him." And yet what ramifications did that episode have? None. After all the portents about the MiB and who/what he/it was...how'd it pan out? A lame fistfight during a thunderstorm, a bullet to the back, a kick off a clifftop. Wow!

All I'm saying is...these are things the producers themselves introduced...for no damn reason.

It would've been so much better if they'd just left these things as a mystery -- instead of the lame Jacob/MiB flashback ep (complete with white swaddling clothes for Jacob and black ones for the MiB!!!!), instead of the misdirection with Faraday's mom in the alt verse ("It isn't time yet!"), they could've just left things unexplained.

I honestly think the constant pleas to "let go" this season was a bit of subliminal messaging from the producers/writers -- "Look, there's no way we can ever make sense of all this, so just let it go and enjoy the ride." Sure I could've, if at least the final leg of the trip had been carefully planned out.

If this was their original intention all along (as they so often claim -- but then what else would they say?), then why didn't they more carefully lay the groundwork?
 
 
Dead Megatron
17:59 / 25.05.10
More fine argumentation but again, it is all based off of your own imagination and some incredible strengths of extrapolation.

My argument in turn is based off of what the characters themselves stated.


Well, if you're incapable of connecting the dots and can only think with what has been clearly stated by some figure of authority, why are you ignoring the "there is no now here" line? Everybody went to limbo when they died, whenever that may have happened, and that's it. No after. No before. Boone and Sayd, for instance, died before Jack and you don't seem to have a problem with that...

If this was their original intention all along (as they so often claim -- but then what else would they say?), then why didn't they more carefully lay the groundwork?

But they did! With the limbo revelation everything connected perfectly. For instance, on the first episode of the final season, all characters continued from the point they left off in the previous season, i.e. the construction site for the Hatch, where the bomb didn't explode and the "accident" that has been mentioned since season 2 or 3 - the one who forced people to press the button every 108 minutes - just happened. If they changed their mind in the last minute, as you claim but fail to prove, why was that? You're the one who is failing to understand the simple math because there wasn't a character laying half an hour of exposition in the show to explain it to you like you were a baby. If you stop and think for yourselve, you'll see it works. But you're gonna have to use your brain to fill the gaps.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:33 / 25.05.10
One last thing before i wrap this debate up. I just re-watched the last episode and it it me there is evidence that what you said about the writers having changed their mind in the 11th hour: Jack's bleeding neck. Throughtou the final season, in the limbo-verse, blood kept showing up on Jack's neck whenever he almost realized what was going on, in the same place he was all dirtwith blood at his moment of death in the bamboo field. Explain that...
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:35 / 25.05.10
A good summary with explanation on why the alter-verse was not meaningless
 
 
Tsuga
22:52 / 25.05.10
God damn, Meggers, you're pretty protective of that tv show, aren't you? It's funny that you say "With the limbo revelation everything connected perfectly.". The Limbo Option can explain anything, because it's magical mysticism that's open to whatever interpretation people want to ascribe it, as is apparent by your interpretation. If you've got a million dots, you can connect them into whatever you want. That's fine if you like it, but I thought it was weak as fucking hell. The whole series was pretty fun, and even some of the last episode, but the number of dots/holes in the story were ridiculous.
We got about five shows behind, which is why I've not been looking into this thread; over the weekend we got caught up watching them all in a row. It was a big buildup to a cop-out, I think.
I don't know, maybe they just painted themselves into a corner with previous seasons and felt that's all they could do, but that ending just made the whole show even more nonsensical than it already was.
 
  

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