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iconoplast
04:49 / 12.08.09
Er. I may not have been as clear as I meant to be when I brought up that BBR place. I brought it up because (1) they're our kind of people, (or rather: they seem to be the kind of people I remember interacting with on barbelith), (2) they're talking about the kind of community they're trying to build, and (3) they got a million dollars in venture capital funding.
 
 
Spaniel
11:45 / 12.08.09
I'm unclear, when you say relationships do you mean romantic, or is the idea that people are brought together in all sorts of ways? Because if it's the latter then I think it's the possibility of sexing that's bringing the big bucks and not the possibility of forming communities.
 
 
jentacular dreams
12:55 / 12.08.09
Whichever, BBR is aiming for, I imagine they must stand a chance of generating decent profits from it if people are willing to invest. Unless the newbelith is going to go down the same route it's probably not that relevant.
 
 
iconoplast
14:37 / 12.08.09
I meant the former (people come together in all sorts of ways). And I don't expect Tom to get a million dollars to build us a new playground (though that has become my new favoritest wish for barbelith), but I'm really encouraged to see that other people seem to be grappling with very similar questions (albeit with very different goals).

I think BBR is worth looking at while discussing the future of the community that will no longer be posting at this address. And, again, I think it's neat that you can get a million dollars to help you help burners get laid.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:43 / 12.08.09
Why would either guns or disposable cellphones need to get laid?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:23 / 12.08.09
If you find out, perhaps you could hit me on my burner?

It's possible iconoplast meant "buster" rather than burner. I don't know if that would be fair to the horny Portlanders. Dressing like late-period Steven Segal doesn't automatically make one a buster, after all...
 
 
deja_vroom
17:51 / 12.08.09
Some thoughts re: the issue of rekindling the ol' spark (i.e. getting people willing, nay, eager to participate)


As someone has already said, one of the biggest deterrents for the majority of members to come back is lack of time, due to work/study/personal obligations. Of course there are other factors at play here, personal issues and whatnot, but I'll only deal with the question of time, because that's the one I feel more accutely in my life (I'm already stalling production here to write this post). The experience of other members will vary, and I hope they will cover the other angles that gang up to smother in the cradle any nascent willingness to set a good hour aside to write posts with solid content and form.

Now, how do you measure the probability of someone being willing to engage in a certain activity? Someone will post in the countercultural messageboard if they feel that what they are getting out of the experience compensates for what they're investing in it (time). This is not exactly news, of course. In the old days of the board, I think most of these perceived benefits were psychological/emotional/intellectual - for instance, feeling of connectedness to a like-minded group; affirmation of intellectual stature/creative powers; harnessing of information.

Those benefits were the direct result of a certain set of people interacting at a certain point in time, and those days and those people are gone. This leads to a question that others might be better prepared to answer: if Barbelith is a social tool, how much of the Barbelith experience is unrepeatable once that social fabric is torn apart?). You'll have two ways of dealing with this, depending on the answer you get:

a) If that experience is repeatable, if it was not the result of a certain, specific intersection of right people @ right time, then I have nothing else to offer on this topic, since by this anwer, things would take care of themselves, and, once the board is active again with enough members, it will eventually gain momentum and revive itself. All effort then would have to be directed towards coming up with a process of selection/prospection for members that would improve the chances of having that spark igniting again - for that, I have not a clue.

b) If that experience is not repeatable, then the psychological/emotional/intellectual carrot would have to be demoted - not replaced, as it is still a considerable part of the experience of any message board - to a secondary role. People would still use Barbelith for social interaction and everything that it entails, but there would have to be something else that would guarantee that people using the board would be committed to high standards of writing & behavior.

Now, following from b):

What other carrots can we think of that would not clash with the core of what was Barbelith's "personality" (I'll avoid trying to define this further than saying that it "favored endeavors with an intellectual/spiritual bent")?

Well, there's always sex, as iconoplast reminded us, but that clashes a bit with the hasty description above, so we're not going to look further into that (although I would like if we could have some flash intro akin to BBR's, only saying things like "YOU WILL NEVER GET LAID")

Then there's money. Now, people from the business side of the internet will be better prepared to take it from here and offer their thoughts, but please keep in mind I'm not only talking about money. I'm talking about some system that would reward the time and effort you spent crafting your posts, in a way that's slightly more tangible. Is it possible to get funding from maybe a bookseller? I don't know, but I know that everybody loves to get books in the mailbox, especially for free. Or discounts/tickets for movies/theater, and so on, and so forth.

I know what you're thinking: "But Deja, how much do I have to beg and sob for someone to pay for my lengthy, throughly researched post that charts the pros & cons of Wolverine's bone vs. adamantium claws?"

I don't know.

Maybe a system of points could be conceived - you fill up a little graph bar meter as you keep on posting the good stuff, and after a number of your contributions are rated as helpful/worthy etc., you get the loot, the bar gets zeroed and it all starts again. Maybe the posts aren't peer-reviewed, maybe another system would be better. But still the core idea would be the same. I don't know if any of that is even remotely feasible - and it's probably far-fetched, but that's what I got.

At this point I have more questions than answers, really - For instance, what exactly could Barbelith offer to the business paying for all that jolly socializing?

So, people with real experience in internet business models, please pipe in.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:44 / 12.08.09
Incidentally - Barbelith time tunnel! - there was a period where one could donate 3 or 5 dollars by Paypal a month.

Some still do...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:47 / 12.08.09
Let's not forget that Barbelith really was something special for a long time. Not just a place where really interesting discussion were held, or people got together to work on creative projects or activism, but also a great social space. Many of my best friends in the whole world I either met or kept in touch with by Barbelith, and the relationships I have formed here have been some of the happiest and most fulfilling of my life.

If someone had told me, about six years ago now, that I've made some good friends (as well, I guess, as some deadly enemies, but I like to think the former still outweighs the latter) as a result of lonesomely reading Grant M interviews late at night on the web, I'd have been sceptical.

But it's proved to have been the case. So I'm with ONT about this. It's just that I don't know how it would be possible, or even, if it would be advisable, to try and recreate that special moment in time that's lasted for as long as Coldplay's career, and only came off the rails at about the same stage their's did.
 
 
Tsuga
01:44 / 13.08.09
It's not advisable to recreate anything, other than some activity with some generally accepted standards. Let the rest spring from that, if there is ever the possibility of activity with functionality.
 
 
netbanshee
02:02 / 13.08.09
A good site has (at least) two things going for it... good content and a proper value add. Presentation is nice and all, but for the most part, it's just a separate enhancement. We've been quite good on the content side and we're not at a lack of ideas there. I think if we can tap into (but not rely on) other outside resources, we'd be in a really good spot.

As far as monetizing sites are concerned, it's generally not an initial priority. There are a TON of free services out there that can do it better than a few intelligent people can generally put together. Sorta why I mentioned feeds and mash-ups towards the top of the thread... it's something free and useful that we can leverage. They might not be the best fit for neulith, but I feel that the thinking is just about right.

Income from the site is a nice idea and something that I would love to see happen for folks like Tom, but it should be something that emerges from the plan as a site matures. I'd be happy to donate some funds and energy into the next thing we do if it can help offset the workload.

On the technical / social media side, if anyone is interested (and doesn't already read these sites), I would recommend taking a look. Might help the discussion on that end.

TechCrunch
O'Reilly Radar
ReadWriteWeb
 
 
grant
19:40 / 13.08.09
It's possible iconoplast meant "buster" rather than burner.

"Burner" is U.S. (West Coast?) slang for one who regularly smokes the buds, leaves and resin of any of a variety of Cannabis species.

-----

I still kinda think even a board that had "Barbelith" in the name, if it was sufficiently different in form and function from the thing we're now using to communicate, could do very well. But the name is strictly secondary - the functioning is what matters.
 
 
iconoplast
20:25 / 13.08.09
"Burner" is U.S. (West Coast?) slang for one who regularly smokes the buds, leaves and resin of any of a variety of Cannabis species.

It's also how my friends who make Burning Man a large part of their identity identify themselves. Which is the sense in which I meant it.

Wishlist for the future of the barbelith discussion community aside, I don't think we need to jettison the domain if there are plans to create another discussion space.

If there aren't, then I think that we should consider giving the domain to G.Morrisson or one of his fans to run a fansite.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
04:24 / 14.08.09
I think we've already covered why the name should have been changed a good while ago, and why keeping it while changing other things would be a pretty bad idea. Nostalgia is always a diverting pursuit, but best keep it a minor one, I think.
 
 
Tom Coates
16:18 / 14.08.09
Hm. Okay - well, let's start at the beginning.

When you make something like Barbelith and it actually works and people come through the door and are excited, it's a brilliant and worthwhile thing. If it doesn't make any money, however, that means you still have to have a full time day-job. And if you want to progress that full-time day job, that means that something's going to have to suffer, something's going to give. For me, in the end, that thing became Barbelith.

I'm still very much of the opinion that if it's died and if people want to go somewhere else, then they can do so. As long as I can keep it running in the background of my life, then I'll be trying to do so.

I know that this is not an ideal situation for other people - I really do - but I don't know what else to say. Over the last few years I've worked doing online local communities for UpMyStreet, doing R&D at the BBC in a team that launched the BBC's podcasts, worked on getting a page for every episode of every BBC programme, worked at Yahoo developing new sites and services, working regular twelve or sixteen hour days to get thigns out of the door. I've moved to another country. I've paralysed my arm for four months and had extensive physiotherapy. I've organised conferences and events. It's been an exhausting, debilitating, hard few years, to be honest.

That people feel maybe a bit resentful about my absence I really understand, but again, without being independently rich, I was never going to be able to continue working at the same level on this project as I could when I didn't have so many other responsibilities.

Now the problem is that Barbelith is a space that in many ways belongs to everyone, but which I have responsibility for. That means I can't give out everyone's passwords to someone new to take it over. I can't just close it down without it having an impact on people and I can't take it off the internet without destroying other people's work.

I have never had a great number of options here. It's basically find a way to consistently work (for the last, note, *ten years*) on this place and let the work suffer, or try to make the other work meaningful and keep this place alive.

Your thoughts and comments, honestly, have been really really helpful to me. You're right that I shouldn't do another project that I couldn't commit to ongoing, which means, unfortunately, that I essentially can't do another project that I can't get funded in some respects. If I can find a way to do something like Barbelith that can get funded like that, then perhaps I will do.

What should happen to this place? I don't know, really, so I'm just going to keep it going, keep thinking about what I've learned from it; how I'd change it, improve it, progress it if I were able. I'm going to do that because despite what people say, I don't think the decision to turn it off should be taken lightly and because when we finally do close the doors and archive everything, I want to do it properly and with the respect it deserves.

But of course, I cannot ask any of you to stay. You all seem pretty disappointed with what Barbelith has become - I cannot blame you - and so my recommendation would be to find new projects, new places to talk and play.

I've loved this place in the past, felt it was important, and have been surprised, delighted and awed by the contributions everyone has made. I've never had online conversations anywhere near as creative and useful as I have here. But I need now to not be responsible for the community ongoing. And you guys need a new place where your needs can be met.

While the few of you who are left are thinking and looking for a new environment or a new way to take the spirit of the place foward, Barbelith will be here ongoing. Who knows - it might rise again.
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:47 / 14.08.09
This absentee landlord thing doesn't work in the slightest, and has created quite a lot of ill feeling.... - Randy

While this is true, it isn't really fair on Tom. In the end it is his board, and while we didn't want him to let the board die that was his decision (I don't think he wanted it to die, of course, he just saw that as the most attractive option). But, ultimately, we could have salvaged what we valued about this place by going elsewhere and the fact that we didn't until fairly recently may be evidence that Barbelith had simply run its course.

Naturally, I would love for Aborlith to succeed but I am not seeing it at the moment.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
05:32 / 15.08.09
I would doubt, LA, that TC needs your support. He needs your strength about as much as he needs mine, I'd say. We're both 'C' list characters.

Maybe 'Arbolith' would do just fine if you, and I, left them alone?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:50 / 16.08.09
Incidentally, Tom, if you're still reading this, what would be useful would be a straight, yes or no, on-record answer to this question:

Do you want admissions to be totally open - that is, for everyone who sends an email applying to join Barbelith to be given the means to generate new user IDs at will? The alternative being that Barbelith will be kept as it is currently, with no new members able to get it?

Given the state of the board's technology and membership at present, these are the two available options. If you are unsure of the implications of either, feel free to contact me to talk it over.
 
 
Tsuga
00:01 / 17.08.09
And before you answer, remember that in some fora there are most likely not enough moderators to approve requests.
 
 
jentacular dreams
13:37 / 17.08.09
Nor enough active posters to warrant moderators in the first place.
 
 
jentacular dreams
14:39 / 17.08.09
Sorry, that was snippier than I intended. But new mods are I suppose easily fixed once there are new people. I mean, if admissions were opened up, things wouldn't go insane the moment this happened.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:39 / 17.08.09
Well, yes. It's basically monument or zoo, I suppose - although actually most of those who do join don't actually post, or post nothing more than an introduction post or a link to their blog, do maybe it won't be too busy too fast. But there won't be any functional moderation - in some fora pictures of goatse will stay up forever, in others they will just take a long time to come down.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:46 / 17.08.09
Inded. But new mods are I suppose easily fixed once there are new people.

Wrong, I think. Nobody left to make a moderator - certainly nobody Tom knows well enough to trust. Also, I think one has to stop thinking in terms of ongoing support, gg - Tom's stated, not unreasonably, that any situation concerning paying the bills and eating is going to trump Barbelith.
 
 
jentacular dreams
23:03 / 17.08.09
Well there's a simple solution there if people are willing: give permission for all current mods (or those who agree) to moderate all fora. It's within the realms of current tech, and barring a significant exodus of those who remain it should keep things functional long enough to size up potential new mods, and keep the place active enough that there's a significant base to transplant over to the post-lith environment.

I understand the fears about how the current name attracts primarily GM fans, and the "temple catflap" effect. But "monument/zoo" is a false choice from the posters' POV. As has been said many times before, if someone wants a monument, they can archive the place themself and stop coming here. There's a spectrum between the current state and a zoo, and I like to believe that happy mediums can be found, especially as I don't know how many people are applying for membership these days anyway? Probably far less than a year or so ago.

Also, I think one has to stop thinking in terms of ongoing support, gg - Tom's stated, not unreasonably, that any situation concerning paying the bills and eating is going to trump Barbelith.

That's fair, and I don't think any of us would argue if such a choice did present itself. But what kind of overheads does the lith have, and do they change depending on how active it is? I'm not convinced that this place *can't* be self sufficient, at least financially. But again, the longer things are left, and the quieter things become, the less likely that that is, and the less worthwhile it is to invest any more time in it.

As always, this is Tom's place, and I'm happy that it has existed. If he feels its time is up, fair enough. But if he's thinking about revamping it in a year or so, and people still get something out of coming here, why not give it a go. The worst case scenario is monument by default.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:33 / 17.08.09
I think that I can't get much past saying that some of the things that you have said above are simply wrong, and others are not wrong but nonetheless do not make any sense. However, I have ONLY NICE THINGS to say about your enthusiasm. Keep your pecker up!
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:41 / 18.08.09
But if he's thinking about revamping it in a year or so, and people still get something out of coming here, why not give it a go.

I get the impression that a revamp's going to require a lot of committment from Tom which may not be possible if it doesn't, to some extent, become part of his professional life. Which may not be really worth it if it's only going to benefit the few remaining actives.

It's a bit C22 really. For a revamp to be worth it we'd need more actives, but to get more actives we need a revamp.
 
 
jentacular dreams
08:27 / 18.08.09
Thanks! I shall certainly do my best, and sincerely appreciate your encouragement!

I still don't see how giving all current active mods mods for all the fora won't solve our mod problem, at least in the short term.

I get the impression that a revamp's going to require a lot of committment from Tom which may not be possible if it doesn't, to some extent, become part of his professional life. Which may not be really worth it if it's only going to benefit the few remaining actives.

Exactly my point. As has already been said, if something isn't changed soon, a year from now, there won't be enough active posters left to bother. You suggested that we had two options on membership until such time as a new system is put in place: fully open or the current system. Tsuga pointed out the oft-quoted problem that we're now quite low on active mods. I have suggested a solution. Not neccessary ideal, you have on a number of occasions stated your reservations about certain mods being mods, but it is a practical and achievable one, and frankly if opening up the board did lead to the zoo situation you fear, can those mods you have the greatest doubts really make things much worse?
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:46 / 18.08.09
I still don't see how giving all current active mods mods for all the fora won't solve our mod problem, at least in the short term.

Whilst I intend to devote myself more fully to Arboretum wrt posting and thread-making, I am still functioning as a Lab Mod here and will continue to do so while the place is still running.

Given that Lab is dead that's hardly a chore anyway. But if I was suddenly an Omni-Mod I'd be obliged to spend more time here than I'd really like.

Being a Mod does kind of mean (in my view anyway) you have to take an active role in whatever forum you're responsible for (at least taking the time to read the active threads on a regular basis). Given that my engagement with the 'Lith is not strong I'm not sure I'd really want to volunteer for that.

Even if I did, I'm unsure we have enough active Mods.
 
 
deja_vroom
10:29 / 18.08.09
I'd have preferred if it had ended with a bang, because the whimpering will just go on and on...
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:01 / 18.08.09
I'd have preferred if it had ended with a bang, because the whimpering will just go on and on...

Is that self-fulfilling whimpering?
 
 
deja_vroom
12:24 / 18.08.09
At this stage, isn't everything?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:00 / 18.08.09
Perhaps if you post a picture of yourself, Jade? That always cheered people up back in the day!

GG - I think the thing is that you are running a couple of days behind. We're not on "in a year's time Tom might be able to spend some time fixing Barbelith" any more - rather we are in "Tom would need to make a community fundable in order to go forward with it, because otherwise one would find oneself back in this situation the next time something fell off". So, when you say:

That's fair, and I don't think any of us would argue if such a choice did present itself

That doesn't make any sense, because Tom has been prioritising paying the bills over Barbelith some years. It's not about the cost of upkeep of Barbelith, it's about the value of the time that would be spent in the upkeep.

Making every mod a moderator of every forum - well, I'm not sure there would be enough moderators left even then, and some of those would be bad moderators, so that's one problem, but if you're OK with having bad moderators (who have the power to veto any proposed moderation action, remember) then that's OK. Also, no way to ban _ever again_. I find myself having to repeat that a lot, so let's assume I already have, and go with that. Never again. You could ban suits, possibly, by emailing Tom and asking him to intercede, but you'd never be able to ban users again, ever, unless you shut down admissions (which would again require intercession from Tom).

To be clear, the state of the board at present is, as far as I'm concerned, monument - one on which the occasional bird is landing, but monument. Tom talks about it as a living community primarily because he isn't reading it. Closing it to new posts would put a dome over it, but that's about the length of it. Wholly open admissions in the current state would make for a zoo the moment _one_ user cut up rough or wanted to share their great ideas about the Holocaust, and was not persuadable. So, those are the parameters under which I say "monument or zoo".

Either of these states is fine. I'd be happy to go with zoo, because I think I'd be happy leaving Barbelith to it at that point. Likewise, I'd be happy to go with monument, if it meant I no longer had to address the admissions question. This is a purely selfish perspective, but at this point you probably have to make an individual peace.
 
 
deja_vroom
16:18 / 18.08.09
I'd rather bet on the endearing qualities of your natural charm to do the trick. Have you tried being even NICER?
 
 
jentacular dreams
16:50 / 18.08.09
That's a bit clearer, thanks. Sorry, I was under the impression that fixing banning etc would be one of the things which recieved attention come the revamp. Totally open admissions for the forseeable would definitely kill the place, if not in activity then at least in terms of the extant ethos and its focus on personal accountability.

As for any potenital newbelith, well if we're talking opportunity cost it's either signup/membership fees or advertising. Obviously how much the place needs to support Tom largely depends how long he envisions the revamp taking, and how much of his time it will take on an ongoing basis following this (plus any actual money the change costs to perform). And the only one who can estimate those figures is Tom himself.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:09 / 18.08.09
Is it not obvious by now that the brand is fucked up beyond repair? You can't fix something that's in this kind of state, because even if you do nobody'll want to come back to it.

The really, *really* basic thing to realise is that you cannot have a worthwhile, properly functioning message board without an administrator maintaining a constant vigil over it. It just doesn't work. If Barbelith's a monument to anything, it's that.
 
  

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