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toughest, fastest, fatest
12:59 / 05.11.09
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought that to get accepted as a poster here, I had to get Fridgemagnet (whom I "knew" off another board) to recommend me as having something worthwhile to add, and it took over a month to get accepted.

There is nothing wrong with being a bit elitist in theory, but in my experience it does slow recruitment and lead to gradual decline as you cannot replace departing members quickly enough.
 
 
toughest, fastest, fatest
16:05 / 05.11.09
Actually having just seen the appropriate threads in the Policy forum it looks like it's already been attempted.

Maybe a slow death by dissipation and spawning is the best thing for Barbelith, how much of a community is left to save? How many active posters are there?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:42 / 06.11.09
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought that to get accepted as a poster here, I had to get Fridgemagnet (whom I "knew" off another board) to recommend me as having something worthwhile to add, and it took over a month to get accepted.

I'm really very sorry you had to wait so long - without knowing the date, I can't tell you to which overcomplicated admissions system you fell prey, but honestly none of them were intended to be elitist - although the delays and hassle involved did mean that it did end up selecting out anyone who wasn't pretty keen, which is a bit of a double-edged sword.

The various admissions systems weren't intended to filter out people who weren't the right sort - they were a mechanism (albeit a clumsy one) to filter out sock puppets and spammers, with which we were having a board-destroying problem. This temporary measure, sadly, turned into a permanent failure of function, and gave the impression (especially since the venn circles of people who wanted to be on Barbelith and people who felt excluded from communities often overlapped, I'd hazard) of elitism or exclusivity, when actually we were just not functioning.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
11:03 / 06.11.09
ONT: Has there been m(any) people applying for entrance over the last few months? Do you get emails, or is there a Barbelith mailbox you check?
Once admitted, does the Newest Member field automatically refresh, or does it need to be manually updated?
I know that the admissions job can be thankless and depressing and demands a lot of time and effort of you... I'm just wondering if the valve is completely shut or if you are letting drops through now and then...
 
 
toughest, fastest, fatest
12:32 / 06.11.09
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not using elitist in a pejorative sense though obviously that is how it is normally meant, I don't have a moral problem with message boards picking and choosing applicants and indeed with the amount of sheer wastage out there on so many howling gales of wilderness and muppetry that are most message boards it's an understandable desire - but strategically it does in my experience strangle communities that should be growing.

Here is a forum I post on www.meanwhileatthebar.org it always had informal entry restrictions, we only encouraged people to join if they were serious about discussing progressive working class politics - and capable of robust debate, it never really worked and we discussed is much nonsense as we did serious stuff, but it did act as a barrier to new people joining. It is now pretty much on it's last legs...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
15:27 / 07.11.09
I'm interested in this idea of 'progressive working class politics'.

Were you guys fans of Mao, Trotsky or Stalin? Or Oasis?

Or none of the above?

Whatever, not to be unkind to ONT. He be doing what he can to keep this old ship sailing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:00 / 09.11.09
Toughest, fastest etc - no pejorative sense implied. I think that if we had selected based purely on a subjective impression by a moderator of whether the applicant would be a good sort, Barbelith would have taken a different path - not necessarily a better one, but a different one. As it was, our admissions process gave the _impression_ of being elitist, without actually being elitist - the worst of both worlds, I suspect.

Eek - your words are kind, but sadly misplaced. The admissions process now demands very little of my time, and is only depressing because I am afflicted with a powerful sense of having failed both those within and those without the gates.

Short version - there's a mailbox. That was set up as a spatchcocked emergency solution to a problem that was never fixed. Maybe half a dozen emails arrive a week requesting entry. Some are one-liners, some are very long and involved. Because of the contradictory messages given out at various points in the applications discussion, some people seek to prove their credentials, others request an exemption from the request that they provide a professional or academic email address (which, incidentally, never sat well with me, as being exclusionary, and is also pretty much meaningless at this point when gmail addresses are pretty much accepted as workable email presences for the self-employed - but anyway). At the moment, all of these people get a response email apologising for their trouble and explaining that the Barbelith applications system is currently broken, that it will probably remain so but that if it is unbroken they will be given instructions on how to get in - which at that point would probably be "go to the website, register".

Just to recap, because you are going to have a great idea about this and I want to respect that while also making it clear that it's already been thought of: having one person or a group of people vet applicants is not accceptable, and is also an unfair process to impose on applicant and examiner. Access is provided by an insecure method that could be duplicated pretty much endlessly. So, without robust banning, there's no functional immune system and no way to remove anyone who can get in once. Without sufficient moderators, there is also no way reliably to control the content on the board. What this means, functionally, is that Tom has a board for the contents of which he is legally responsible but over the contents of which there is almost no day-to-day control.

It's Tom's choice what happens with that. In my humble but expert opinion, you'd end up with the few remaining relatively sane members being relocated in the face of trolls, holocaust deniers, inappropriately sexual content contributors, attempts to contact Grant Morrison and so forth. However, that's a choice that's Tom's to make. I can set up a relay that gives anyone who emails the email address access to the insecure entry method. That's very simple. However, I'd need Tom's specific instruction to do so, because it would probably lead to s situation where the whole community needed to be nuked at some later point. Without that instruction, I've effectively closed the applications process, because any action taken using it, especially now there are so few moderators left, would potentially create a state change on the board which I don't think it's my place to authorise.

This is pretty saddening, actually. It's a responsibility I wish I didn't have, and I don't like disappointing the applicants. But, whaddayagonnado?

Oh, and the new member thing updates automatically - it isn't doing that because noone is joining.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
13:24 / 09.11.09
Thanks for the insight into the process.
I still think it's depressing in that your hands are tied. And if it seemed like I was going to try go somewhere with my question, I wasn't, really... I just wanted to know if there still is a trickle of applicants, and if so, what was happening to them. Like I said, sending out "Sorry, can't accept new members now" letters seems like a bit of a drag of a chore but you are very clear as to why, so thanks both for explaining it to me and for still responding to the people who apply.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:34 / 09.11.09
It is saddening, and saddening also for the applicants. But, hey, it really doesn't take up much of my time at all, these days, and I don't think it's worth speculating about what might happen. If you want to make a chance, as I said elsewhere, probably the only thing to do is email Tom - he probably doesn't have time to repair the drawbridge, but he could tell me to cut the chain and let it fall permanently - or weld it shut, by stating categorically that he doesn't want anyone else to join Barbelith, or rather that given the current technical setup he doesn't think it's a good idea that they do.
 
 
toughest, fastest, fatest
15:14 / 11.11.09
"I'm interested in this idea of 'progressive working class politics'.

Were you guys fans of Mao, Trotsky or Stalin? Or Oasis?

Or none of the above?"

None of the above, more like this - www.iwca.info only with a sense of humour.

Although we did have some Trotsky fans on board as well, who were nice enough people just a little intense.
 
 
pony
00:08 / 12.11.09
Just out of curiosity: presuming that UCGaucho was some sort of experimental account, what was its purpose?
 
 
oryx
15:11 / 12.11.09
I've got to say, whatever the rationale behind it, having an admissions policy and procedure doesnt do the board any favours. And I say this as someone who had to jump through hoops to register just to find the most inert bulletin board in the history of the internet once I finally gained admission.

I'd also add that the interface is a bloody nightmare compared to many of the other boards I have used, and the ludicrously stringent etiquette regarding the correct usage of this rubbish interface doesnt exactly endear the board to new users. I have had two messages, both of which explained to me that I need to put quotes in bold type, and I need to format this manually. Why not just have a quote button ffs?

And finally - the hostility to new posters that passes for quality control isn't going to enliven the boards.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:24 / 12.11.09
I apologise, oryx. Something in my manner or my style is keeping me from being heard by you. If there is anything I can do to change that, please tell me and I will do what I can

On the positive side, the interface may be tricky, but while you are using it you are learning basic HTML, which is a lot more generally useful than UBB script...
 
 
■
17:58 / 12.11.09
As one of the people who tried (and eventually failed then wandered off to Azeroth) to help with the apps process, I can back up ONT that it was a bit of a horrorshow. The bannings when trolls slipped through even more so. I suspect that people are drifting back a little, or popping in now and then to play with the cobwebs and scare Yvette Fielding, but for now, best to leave it alone.
 
 
deja_vroom
18:03 / 12.11.09
And I say this as someone who had to jump through hoops to register just to find the most inert bulletin board in the history of the internet

I like to imagine that your mind was blown, just a little.
 
 
oryx
22:12 / 12.11.09
Deja - my mind was blown long, long before I reached Barbelith.
 
 
deja_vroom
22:26 / 12.11.09
Awesome.
 
 
Tsuga
00:23 / 13.11.09
Oryx, don't you understand that this is another hoop?
 
 
Evil Scientist
06:55 / 13.11.09
(and eventually failed then wandered off to Azeroth)

The advantage with WOW of course being that you can hit trolls with a dirty great axe.

Or team-up with them.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:59 / 13.11.09
Guys! Guys! I think some of this is probably going to be read as hostility! Let's think only of the nice things, OK?
 
 
oryx
13:30 / 13.11.09
Tsunga - *more* hoops? the zen hoopery of Barbelith membership, you mean?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
01:02 / 15.11.09
Let's consider the bright side, onyx; you made it through the selection process.

Lots of people are turned down. But you're not like them.

Depending on how you want to look at it, I suppose, you're a lucky guy!
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:08 / 15.11.09
I liked the bit where you were waiting for ages to join, then when you did you made it evident that you'd spent absolutely no time finding out how the board functioned by reading any of the many threads on that subject.

I also liked the way you did this while acting like a brat, then complained about hostility displayed towards you.

That was awesome.
 
 
grant
16:37 / 17.11.09
Interfaces and buttons.

That's all the kids want nowadays.
 
 
Quantum
07:59 / 20.11.09
Grant that's ace I'm going to retweet it right now
 
 
grant
15:56 / 20.11.09
@Quantum: U bet!!
 
 
Haus Of Pain
13:09 / 12.03.10
Unless someone wants to flesh this thread out - and I don't - I'm going to move for a deletion.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
21:43 / 28.03.10
I'll believe it when I see it.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
09:26 / 04.04.10
Should Bobosss be banned?

I think it'd be quite droll.

Come on guys, we haven't had a banning thread in ages!

Since ... well that would be mine, I suppose.
 
 
Evil Scientist
22:21 / 08.04.10
Ban you, with sponge.
 
 
Shrug
18:42 / 13.04.10
I'm actually lamenting the loss of Barbelith right now.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:55 / 28.02.13
Bump
 
  

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