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Buffy as modern Mythology?

 
  

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David_21
00:53 / 22.01.09
I haven't been here in awhile, 'cause of uni, but, I wanted to get your opinions on something. Is there anyone else here who views Buffy (and Angel) as a kind of modern Mythology?, 'cause, personally, I do, I think it has quite a lot of cool entities to work with (from kick ass Gods, to demons, to heroes, witches, etc), to messages (e.g. season 6 being about addiction), etc.

If you do, have you ever gotten results with either Buffy or Angel, or do you think it's possible to work with them?.
 
 
Quantum
09:34 / 22.01.09
I don't think so. They are loosely based on real gods and demons, and created by one guy or a handful of writers as entertainment, rather than believed in as real beings by hundreds of thousands of people for thousands of years.

Buffy is not on a par with Athena.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
09:42 / 22.01.09
What about working with Buffy as a fetish? I don't mean in the Marxist sense, obviously.
 
 
trouble at bill
12:00 / 22.01.09
Buffy is not on a par with Athena.

True, but some people might argue that the psychic energy created by mass-audiences (even if they do not actually treat the show as anything other than fiction) might mean that there's somethign there could be tapped into.

And the characters might be viewable as Archetypes, possibly.

But I wouldn't say it's modern myth either, mainly because the gods/demons they're based on are so old. Super heroes would make a better claim to being modern because they have more science-oriented powers, I'd have thought. Does that make sense? (I suppose it all depends how we use the word 'modern'...)

What about working with Buffy as a fetish? I don't mean in the Marxist sense, obviously.

Do you mean in a sexual sense? "Love is the Law, Love under Willow."
 
 
Closed for Business Time
12:18 / 22.01.09
Maybe? ... Or as an artificial object imbued with spiritual significance, without said significance necessarily deriving from the object itself, but rather what the object signifies.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:16 / 22.01.09
season 6 being about addiction

Season 6 was about awful awful plots and generally being rubbish wasn't it?

Oh and magic is suddenly like heroin (and then just as suddenly isn't).

Sorry, sorry, I'll go back to TV.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
13:21 / 22.01.09
I have the sneaking feeling that my previous post was me trying to be clever and ending up talking shite...
 
 
electric monk
14:45 / 22.01.09
True, but some people might argue that the psychic energy created by mass-audiences (even if they do not actually treat the show as anything other than fiction) might mean that there's somethign there could be tapped into.

Which leads me to an aspect of this that I don't think I've seen much discussed when this has come up before (and I can't be bothered to search out old threads right now to make sure, frankly). Namely, that since these things are created by committee with at least a partial purpose of selling goods and services (of the Buffy-centric, Wheadon-centric, and other varieties) and geared to encourage repeat viewing for maximum exposure of the marketing forces at play, why in the world should we actually get involved with them on a magical level? I get that Buffy, Bugs Bunny, et al,hold a special place in the imaginations of millions, and that they probably could make for a good visual/emotional aide for the beginner. But these icons are subject, first and formost, to corporate whims and influence. Buffy doesn't save the universe. Buffy sells paper towels if the man in the suit says to sell paper towels. We can love these things, certainly, but they will never love us and were never meant to. It just doesn't seem the kind of thing I'd personally attach the word "mythology*" to. "Personal iconography", maybe if I weren't cranky as fuck and out of coffee.

an artificial object imbued with spiritual significance, without said significance necessarily deriving from the object itself, but rather what the object signifies.

This I can get behind, to a degree.
 
 
trouble at bill
16:13 / 22.01.09
Hmm, i have heard the argument that getting involved with such things on a magical level subverts their evil corporate origins. Though whether I agree with it or not I'm really not sure...
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:25 / 22.01.09
True, but some people might argue that the psychic energy created by mass-audiences (even if they do not actually treat the show as anything other than fiction) might mean that there's somethign there could be tapped into.

I would ask those people for anything close to a working definition of "psychic energy", or why it would be generated by staring mindlessly at a screen. Attention is being surrendered, but I fail to see how there's anything to work with there.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
17:35 / 22.01.09
I would ask those people for anything close to a working definition of "psychic energy", or why it would be generated by staring mindlessly at a screen. Attention is being surrendered, but I fail to see how there's anything to work with there.

I agree. For any conceivable result, it would at very least require some common intent for people to focus on for some sort of magic to happen, otherwise unfocused psychic energy coupled with sexual enery would end up making pornstars the most powerful god-like beings and archtypes on the planet.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
19:21 / 22.01.09
staring mindlessly at a screen

yes. no one watching buffy could have experienced any kind of emotional involvement.

(in case you're wondering, yes, i am a dork and I cried two weeks ago watching crazy Spike hug the cross and ask if it's okay for him to die now.)

I think we've covered all this before in other threads. yes, you probably can view characters on popular TV shows etc as ideas to work with magically. no, it wouldn't be exactly equivalent to working with an old-timey God, for several reasons. Buffy has not been as important to human culture as Athena or whoever, and anyway is a mix of several old hero ideas plus a bit of Joss Whedon fetish.

if you want to talk about how YOU'VE tried working with BtVS and what happened, go ahead.

if nobody else has any experiences to give back to you, don't be too surprised.

starting threads like "has anyone tried chaos magick idea X?" around here didn't work too well even when there was anyone here. if you think there's an interesting idea there, go do something about it.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
00:44 / 23.01.09
yes. no one watching buffy could have experienced any kind of emotional involvement.

Emotional involvement doesn't change anything.
 
 
Quantum
13:07 / 23.01.09
And the characters might be viewable as Archetypes, possibly.

They're handy instances of archetypes to use as examples to explain archetypes to people. The Fool 'a bit like Xander', the wise teacher 'Y'know, Giles', like that.

They're not archetypes though, tropes at best. I mean, I love the Buffster as much as anyone else, but the characters aren't exactly Falstaff or Puck.

Except Andrew and Jonathan, who shall live as gods in my personal mythology.
 
 
Quantum
13:13 / 23.01.09
Hey, I just found out there's no picture of the trio living as gods anywhere on the web- blasphemy!

"We are as gods..."
 
 
trouble at bill
14:51 / 23.01.09
starting threads like "has anyone tried chaos magick idea X?" around here didn't work too well even when there was anyone here

True, but here we have stumbled over some differences in magickal theory, namely 'what exactly constitutes an archetype?' and 'can/should one harness for serious magickal purposes the psychic energy of gormless fanboys throughout the world as they gawk at Buffy's boobies?'. Someone somewhere might learn a little from our discussion...
 
 
alex supertramp
00:34 / 25.01.09
"I don't think so. They are loosely based on real gods and demons, and created by one guy or a handful of writers as entertainment, rather than believed in as real beings by hundreds of thousands of people for thousands of years."

This is the anti-thesis of all of my magical ideas.
 
 
Lugue
22:43 / 25.01.09
This is the anti-thesis of all of my magical ideas.

Why? I've never quite understood where, why and how the line is drawn between mythological/spiritual entities and fictional ones as to their potential use in the construction of what seem to me to be very individual, very selective and subjective, pantheons and sets of beliefs. Could you tell me why the division bothers you? Or did I misread you?

They're handy instances of archetypes to use as examples to explain archetypes to people. The Fool 'a bit like Xander', the wise teacher 'Y'know, Giles', like that.

They're not archetypes though, tropes at best. I mean, I love the Buffster as much as anyone else, but the characters aren't exactly Falstaff or Puck.


Well, isn't any manifestation of an archetype relatable to it through some core elements and functions, but not absolutely so in every aspect? What keeps Giles from corresponding to what you identify as "the wise teacher" or Xander as "the fool"? Also, what is the difference between an archetype and a trope? I've always thought a trope was a sort of recurring stylistic feature through different texts. But I don't fully feel the distinction, or how it is meant here.

I'm asking as an outsider. To this forum, to these beliefs and to these practices. I hope this is okay.
 
 
alex supertramp
23:26 / 25.01.09
You did misread me! I said anti-thesis, not thesis.

In other words, I strongly am against the idea that "Jesus is a more legitimate god than Superman, because there are billions of people who've worshipped Jesus over Millenia, not just a hundred years of comic book readers."

This sentiment isn't really any different than "My god is better than your god". Do we really believe that the collective "belief energy" of billions of worshippers accumulates power for Jesus? This is a model for describing the rules for a psychic universe; really, it's only describing your own mental playground. If you believe more power comes from more worshippers, then it is true. however, if my mental playground doesn't subscribe to those rules, I'm free to worship Superman, or Yoda, or freaking Bugs Bunny.

A god is only as real as YOU believe it is. Saying Jesus is more real than Buffy as a god is ridiculous, because neither of them are real, only constellations of ideas and images in YOUR MIND. Evidence for this, have you ever met Buffy? What about Jesus, have you met him?
 
 
treekisser
23:48 / 25.01.09
David_21: If you do, have you ever gotten results with either Buffy or Angel, or do you think it's possible to work with them?.

Well you kinda have two questions in your original post -- whether it's possible to work with them as myths, and/or also magically.

Problem with the first question is that there are plenty of definitions of myth. Doty, for example, seems to include everything under the sun as a 'myth'. But I think there's a large consensus on something like Bascom's definition, which holds myths to be sacred stories -- sacred not just to an individual, but in a cultural context. In that sense, Buffy and Angel aren't myths because the shows aren't told as sacred truth in a way that demands faith from the audience (suspension of disbelief is NOT the same! ).

I can absolutely see working with Buffy and Angel on a magical level though. Invoking Willow-le-uberwitch would be a kick-ass way to boost your powers (or at least your ego). Personally I wouldn't, because I'm quite suspicious of stray associations from other people being attached to the characters and unknowingly influencing my work. But it still looks viable to me.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
16:38 / 26.01.09
Alex Supertramp: Are your ideas about this based on actual experiences of working with both deities such as the Norse, Olympians, Lwa, etc, and pop culture characters. If so, could you talk a bit more about that, and how your experiences interacting with these different modes of deity have shaped your strongly held opinions on this.

I disagree with your perspective, as my own decade of experience with both modes of entity pretty much directly contradict the ideas you are putting forward. I have "met" a broad variety of deities, in so far as such a meeting can be said to take place, and have been left - again and again - with the indelible impression that I am dealing with something more than a subroutine of my own mind. When I interact with Shango, for instance, I appear to be interacting with a force of nature that is expressed in the clap of thunder and flash of lightning, and that thunderclap of passion as it occurs in the emotions of all human beings, and various other related mysteries along that continuum.

I don't subscribe to the idea that entities, Gods or pop culture characters, are "fed by belief" or by the attention poured towards them. It doesn't really seem to work like that as far as I can tell. It's more a case of the personalities and attributes of these entities providing a human-type lens through which we may access "mysteries of nature and being". This goes for pop culture deities as well. In my work with the Lovecraft pantheon, interacting with fictional characters such as Cthulhu and Shub Niggurath *did* get me somewhere, and I did get a sense of being in contact with something when I worked with that stuff. I don't really believe that thousands of Lovecraft fans have somehow "made the Great Old Ones come alive" through the intensification of their belief - but it's more a case of those characters providing a lens for interacting with a mystery of nature. Shub Niggurath is not that far removed from Pan. Cthulhu is not that far away from Olokun.

In this way, I would draw a few parallels between working with pop culture characters and the use of the iconography of Saints in Vodou. You will find weird pop culture stuff on Voodoo altars, such as star wars figures, or photos of pop stars and film stars. I do this myself. It's not that I'm directly working with, say, Darth Vader or Spiderman, but something of those fictional characters expresses something of the same mystery as the Lwa whose altar they end up on.

Ultimately though, as ever, it comes down to utility of belief. Darth Vader may end up on my Ghede altar, but in practical terms, if I want to learn something about working with the dead, or if I have a problem in my community that I need some help or advice on, Ghede is going to be a safer bet than Lord Vader. If I was planning to construct a Death Star and conquer the galaxy, Vader would probably be my man, but I don't find myself needing that sort of help terribly often. For me, stuff from pop culture is treat as a sort of modern embellishment on a timeless mystery of existence, but in practical terms, deities who have been around for a bit seem to be able to offer more once you get them talking. There is a history there, some sort of encoded memory of their interaction with human beings over thousands of years. You really get this with the Lwa, they are not a blank slate or a sock puppet upon which you can impose your own meaning, but encapsulate the history and experience of a people. It's difficult to explain if you haven't directly encountered it, but something a lot more complex seems to be going on with spirits of this nature than with pop culture characters, as far as I can tell.

Your comments suggest that you have perhaps not directly had experiences with deities that have made you think there is something going on other than a communication with a subroutine of your own brain, or an archetype in the collective unconscious, or whatever. If this is the case, I follow your reasoning, as your perspective here is probably the most logical way of framing deity work. I used to subscribe to that same model myself, back in the day, before I started having regular experiences that forced me to rethink it. That process of rethinking my models of deity work is ongoing, and long may it remain so.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
16:57 / 26.01.09
In this way, I would draw a few parallels between working with pop culture characters and the use of the iconography of Saints in Vodou.

I didn't actually explain that above did I. I meant that pop culture characters are used as a "mask of the power" in the same way that the iconography of Saints is used. Stallone as Rocky might end up on an Ogun altar, in the same way as St George or St Jacque Majere might end up there, as they all express something of the warrior nature of Ogun. Images of Brigit Bardot may adorn an altar to Erzulie Freda along side images of the Mater Dolorosa. In all instances, its not *quite* Bardot or the Virgin Mother that are being worshipped, but the force or mystery that those images express. I've felt the same sort of thing going on whenever I've worked with pop culture entities, its a mask on something much older and more primal. However, when you compare that to working with deities who have been around for a bit, they are still a mask on a primal mystery of existence, but somehow along the way, they appear to have attained agency, memory, history and sentience to a far greater degree than, say, characters from Buffy. If you work with Batman, as a spirit, what you get on the other end of the line isn't really used to being interacted with in this way, whereas a Lwa such as Ghede knows exactly what traffic with humans is all about and how it works. Does this make sense?
 
 
alex supertramp
17:32 / 26.01.09
"For me, stuff from pop culture is treat as a sort of modern embellishment on a timeless mystery of existence, but in practical terms, deities who have been around for a bit seem to be able to offer more once you get them talking. There is a history there, some sort of encoded memory of their interaction with human beings over thousands of years. You really get this with the Lwa, they are not a blank slate or a sock puppet upon which you can impose your own meaning, but encapsulate the history and experience of a people."

That's the quandary, isn't it? You make interesting points, but your logic breaks down upon close examination. here's what I mean: Lwa is as fictional as Darth Vader. One day, there was a man who said "Lwa exists", and set about describing that entity. One day, there was a man who said "Darth Vader exists", and he set about describing that entity.

Whether or not Vader is appropriated from early cultural symbols, myths, or gods, or whatever, it doesn't make any difference to me. The reason it doesn't make any difference to me is that the same can be said of Lwa. A man (woman?), looked at the myths, ideas, and symbols around him, ingested them, and from this emerged the "idea" of Lwa.

If you think Superman is merely a mask for Jesus, then surely Jesus is just a mask for Osiris, Krishna, or Adonis!

If you think Jesus is just a mask for Osiris, then surely Osiris is just a mask for another proto-god even before him!

It's turtles, turtles, all the way down!
 
 
alex supertramp
17:36 / 26.01.09
"There is a history there, some sort of encoded memory of their interaction with human beings over thousands of years."

I'll also add here that the Guardians of the Universe, from DC Comics, have been around since the beginning of time.

Gods are ideas: they exist outside of space time. In that sense, Darth Vader is as old as Guede. I mean, wasn't Vader alive a long long time ago?
 
 
EvskiG
20:11 / 26.01.09
Alex: I'm hardly an expert on the subject, but from your responses I think you're a bit unclear on the concept of the Lwa.
 
 
alex supertramp
20:34 / 26.01.09
I was using Lwa as an example.

You can substitute literally any god or mythological character.
 
 
EvskiG
21:10 / 26.01.09
No, I mean you seem to believe that "Lwa" is a single "god or mythological character," like Odin, rather than a term used to describe a class of (multiple) spiritual entities.

Keeping the topic in mind, it's as if you heard someone talking about the Judeo-Christian concept of angels, and you started referring to them as Angel.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
21:27 / 26.01.09
Again, could you please attempt to substantiate your ideas with examples of how you have arrived at these ideas in the course of your practice, because none of what you have to say on this subject has the ring of experiential authenticity to it. That is a problem for further discussion, because at the moment it feels as if you are talking about "ideas" you have come up with that sound plausible to you, whereas I'm very specifically talking about a practice that I live and breathe every day. Have you put in the hours? Are you speaking from direct personal experience of what you are talking about?

Lwa is as fictional as Darth Vader. One day, there was a man who said "Lwa exists", and set about describing that entity. One day, there was a man who said "Darth Vader exists", and he set about describing that entity.

It would probably help if you were to familiarise yourself with what the term Lwa actually refers to, before you make sweeping statements about the concept. But that aside, one day George Lucas invented the character of Darth Vader for his film, something about that character resonated deeply with a lot of people, probably because it taps into something quite primal and archetypal. People love Star Wars, go to conventions, dress up as Vader and buy toys and boxsets. That's about the extent of it.

No individual sat down on a Sunday afternoon with a packet of biscuits and came up with the idea of Ghede. He emerged organically out of a culture, and is a means by which that culture attempts to relate to the ancestors, the dead, life, death, sexuality and other crucial stuff of our experience. He's not a fictional character invented for recreational entertainment. He's a means of relating to and interacting with the really important stuff of our existence, the essentials of life and death, and he has been this for generations and generations of people. In a way that Spiderman or Buffy really isn't and hasn't and is unlikely to. If you start up a conversation with Buffy, you don't tap into the same deep well spring of history and mystery. There's not really very much on the other end of the line. Even within her own cosmology, she isn't really set up to function in this way. Why would you call on her? What can she help with? Cheerleading tips? Vampire slaying? With the Lwa, it's really all about learning from them, learning more about their mystery, learning of their magic. You put in the hours, and it begins to unfold for you. I've been doing this stuff for years and it feels as if I've still only scratched the surface of what is there. I can't really say I've had anything like the same experience working with fictional characters.

It's difficult to really communicate the difference to you, because I would hazard a guess that you haven't actually done a great deal of deity work yourself, so there isn't a commonality of experience. You have made up your mind that deities are fictional characters, and therefore your logic follows that there is no discernable difference between deities and all other fictional characters. I'm not really likely to convince you otherwise if you have not personally experienced deity in a way that is quite unlike fiction - and rightly so. I'm just a disembodied voice on the internet, why should you take my word for it. I would however, suggest that your practice may be enriched if you put what you think you already know on hold and experiment in this feild with a more flexible and open mind as to the nature of what is taking place.

If you think Superman is merely a mask for Jesus, then surely Jesus is just a mask for Osiris, Krishna, or Adonis! If you think Jesus is just a mask for Osiris, then surely Osiris is just a mask for another proto-god even before him!

I don't think Superman is a mask for Jesus. However, every word you put down does seem to demonstrate a total absence of direct personal experience of any of the deities you make reference to. Have you spent time - as in years - working with these Gods? As a rule, I would say that anyone who merrily equates deities based on similarity of attribute has not done very much work with deities. Their personalities are very different and very specific. There is certainly a commonality of mystery behind the deities Oshun, Erzulie Freda, Aphrodite, Ishtar, Babalon, Isis and so on, but in practical terms, they are very different ladies. The differences are sometimes more important than the similarities, and you're dealing with something more akin to points on a spectrum of human experience.

I'll also add here that the Guardians of the Universe, from DC Comics, have been around since the beginning of time.

Except they haven't. They've been around since maybe the 1960s or 1970s when some comics writer invented them. There isn't a history of traffic there, entire cultures haven't been working with them as deities for thousands of years, and its this history of traffic that seems to shape the potency and 'living' qualities of actual deities. People haven't prayed to the Guardians of the Universe to put a meal on their table, nobody has started a righteous revolution in their name, nobody has dedicated their lives to their service and lived and breathed their mysteries with their every waking moment. This is the stuff that matters, and it's what seems to make a qualitative difference between these two modes of entity.

your logic breaks down upon close examination

No comment.
 
 
alex supertramp
21:37 / 26.01.09
Reconcile these two statements, Gypsy Lantern:

"There isn't a history of traffic there, entire cultures haven't been working with them as deities for thousands of years, and its this history of traffic that seems to shape the potency and 'living' qualities of actual deities. People haven't prayed to the Guardians of the Universe to put a meal on their table, nobody has started a righteous revolution in their name, nobody has dedicated their lives to their service and lived and breathed their mysteries with their every waking moment. This is the stuff that matters, and it's what seems to make a qualitative difference between these two modes of entity."

"I don't subscribe to the idea that entities, Gods or pop culture characters, are "fed by belief" or by the attention poured towards them."
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
21:57 / 26.01.09
Happily. They are not "fed by belief" in the sense that lots of people *believing* in Deity X is what makes Deity X powerful/real/etc. They are not fed by awareness, in the sense that more people currently know who Buffy is than Hoor Par Kraat, so Buffy must therefore be the most powerful and effective deity to work with.

It's the history of *human interaction* that seems to count. The history of traffic, and how they have been shaped by that traffic over time. Not how many people have watched their TV show and enjoyed their adventures as a work of fiction. Not how many people have heard about them. But how they have mattered to people, in a life and death way, for generations. How they - as deities - have shared and participated in the stuff of their devotees lives and encapsulate the shared history and experience of a people. When you speak to a deity from a specific culture, all of that comes with them, you get all of that on the end of the line. If deities such as the Lwa were, as you say, abstract fictional ideas that exist outside of space time, no different from Doctor Octopus or Willy Wonka, you wouldn't tap into that same current of lived history and experience that characterises contact with them.

Are you going to keep ignoring my persistent calls for a bit of background to substantiate how your ideas on this have emerged out of and have been shaped by your actual living practice?

Thought so.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
22:13 / 26.01.09
I'm not really sure what you are trying to get out of this discussion. I'm trying to talk to you about my experiences of deity work, what it feels like, my observations and current working models that have emerged from those observations. Unless you start doing the same, and sharing how your very different ideas are equally rooted in your own practice and experiences, we are not going to get very far. I want to know how you arrived at those ideas, through your magical work, because *ideas* about magic, on their own, are ten-a-penny and not particularly helpful to fellow practitioners if they aren't firmly rooted in stuff you have actually done. Without even a nod towards that sort of detail, your posts are going to fall flat in this environment - or what's left of this environment.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
22:13 / 26.01.09
Why am I even posting here?
 
 
alex supertramp
22:30 / 26.01.09
Calm down, Gypsy Lantern, I have been writing my post this whole time. It takes me time.
 
 
alex supertramp
22:34 / 26.01.09
"If deities such as the Lwa were, as you say, abstract fictional ideas that exist outside of space time, no different from Doctor Octopus or Willy Wonka, you wouldn't tap into that same current of lived history and experience that characterises contact with them."

I didn't say Willy Wonka and Doctor Octopus aren't different. The Lwa is as different from those two things as they are from each other.

I believe you when you say that you tap into the cultural beliefs, history, and 'soul' (I guess, this is where language always breaks down for me)of a people when you work with your ancient entities.

how can you say that you don't tap into the cultural beliefs, history, and 'soul' of a people when you watch Willy Wonka? A set of cutural beliefs, history, and 'soul' informed the creation of Willy Wonka as much as it did the Lwa. Both entities are completely FICTIONAL.

The mad, almost wall street style warehouse of women simply unwrapping Wonka bars is a representation of Industrialist ideals that warped the author. The media obsessiveness over the finding of the candy bars, as opposed to actual news. The Labyrinthine Chocalate factory itself, the flying glass elevator! These things are inherently myth-like, crafted to represent the reality the author was experiencing. The Lwa, unless for some reason this Lwa is ACTUALLY REAL and all other religions are OBJECTIVELY WRONG, is a mental state or idea that was discovered by an original author. The author, whether intentionally or received from within his mind, crafted the Lwa to model the reality the author was experiencing.

I can't see why, in a meditative state, I couldn't visit the Chocolate Factory as opposed to Valhalla. There's no reason I can't sit in my room and summon Willy Wonka, as apposed to any of your other more 'traditional', or if you prefer 'acceptable', entities.

"Are you going to keep ignoring my persistent calls for a bit of background to substantiate how your ideas on this have emerged out of and have been shaped by your actual living practice?"

Yes, I am. This is the internet, I don't feel obligated to detail my religious history with you, just because you demanded it.
 
 
alex supertramp
22:50 / 26.01.09
Also, I'd appreciate if you stopped making baseless assumptions about my magical practice. We've never met, you don't know anything about me, stop trying to dissect my argument by what you think I've experienced or not.
 
  

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