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INTERVENTION (PICS, NSFW depending on your workplace's attitude to fully-clad pictures either of Grant Morrison or of Ron Mael, depending on whether that moderation action goes through)

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11:56 / 08.01.09

Not much to be done, really. This may be the problem with Barbelith, so the only solution would be reopening the doors...

I think this puts us somewhere we've been before once or twice though...

12:00 / 08.01.09

Where we differ is on how well you are doing it, and how useful the comparison is.

Aye. I expect that though, and I'm fairly comfortable with it.

Anna de Logardiere

13:07 / 08.01.09

You know this is one of those moments when I look at the conversation and I think, gosh isn't barbelith so rich, male and innovative in the old fashioned rather than contemporary sense. Community manifestation vs. individual quotation is the one discussion I don't miss about this place.

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:09 / 08.01.09

Well, yes. Obviously. Nonetheless, it is a poor summary and an actively unhelpful comparison. A poor summary because it smacks of the attribution error - other people's reactions clearly have an emotional pitch that their souls reveal even if their words do not. It is an unhelpful and quite a foolish comparison because the people who are expressing discontent here are in the main people who have been involved in the board for a considerable length of time and have in many cases already thought and talked about these issues. The comparator group are not - they are people deeply offended by reactions to their own actions appealing to their justifying angel. The equation is not only blisteringly indirect but quite mean and dismissive.

I know that this kind of consideration is rarely expected on the Internet, but I have unrealistic expectations even sltill

13:14 / 08.01.09

Community manifestation vs. individual quotation is the one discussion I don't miss about this place.

Maybe there's plenty hereabouts who have never had that discussion. I'm certainly learning things. That's good enough for me.

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

14:15 / 08.01.09

I'm not even sure that anyone has so far expressed disgust, rather than e.g. frustration, sadness, perplexity. Stick to the real.

really? in this very thread, Mordant has compared barbelith to a "shit pit" and talked about how moderating here makes her "throw up in her mouth a little", among other things. several people, while not literally actually using the word disgust, have basically said they agree very much. others, like Gypsy, have also used body function metaphors, ie pissing on people's memories.

does someone need to actually literally use the exact word 'disgust' for it to count? I think these statements more probably indicate an emotion like disgust than, say, frustration or perplexity.

14:22 / 08.01.09

Thread summary:
This is a Barbelith. It is made of rich white male and broken.

Sorry. I didn't mean to be so flip, but while I know what Mordant is getting at in her summary, the presupposition of "brokenness" should not be seen as inherent in rich, white, or male exclusively... Barbelith is not broken because one has regular access to highspeed broadband (Her definition of "rich" in this particular case), the colour of a poster's skin (I'm sure all colours of people make shit posts) or the gender of posters...

I understand that a lot of the world is a hellish place because of "Rich White Males" but it's a generalization which is starting to become a crutch of a cliché. Maybe I'm just annoyed because I guess I fit the mold... (Although I would never consider myself "rich")

14:37 / 08.01.09

yeah well said man, i'm glad someone came out and said it! why is it acceptable to people here to use "white" as an insult, i'm sorry but whatever anyone says that is just RACISM, pure and simple, yeah i said it.... what is the point of using these labels as insults, surely the only way we as a human species are ever going to move forward into a brighter future is if we stop labelling people... whether its as "white", "black" "gay", "straight", "rich", "poor", "conservative", "liberal", "smart", "dumb"... so many of these things are subjective after all, like you i would never consider myself rich but its all relative... so let's just try and move on from these outdated ways of thinking right?

14:56 / 08.01.09

stallion, I'm labelling you 'Dickhead'. Please fuck right off.

15:02 / 08.01.09

okay i am really sick of being told to fuck off or that what i'm saying is offensive on barbelith whenever i agree with what someone else has said! why don't you tell freektemple to fuck off eh quantum?!?

15:04 / 08.01.09

Fuck off.

15:05 / 08.01.09

Here's an odd thing which I swear to God is absolutely true.

While I was sitting here in the studio, reading this and about to reply, Grant walked in to see a (currently absent) Quitely. Since FQ wasn't about, we just had a long talk for the first time about lots of stuff, but also about this place, what it used to mean to him and what he thinks of it now. This was going on during the post with the picture above.

It was an interesting thing. There's possibly even the hint of swingball on the cards now.

15:07 / 08.01.09

Sorry, not at iamus that's a crosspost- I'm clearly aiming my fuckoffs at stallion, here's another!

image removed

15:09 / 08.01.09

what is the point of using these labels as insults, surely the only way we as a human species are ever going to move forward into a brighter future is if we stop labelling people... whether its as "white", "black" "gay", "straight", "rich", "poor", "conservative", "liberal", "smart", "dumb"... so many of these things are subjective after all, like you i would never consider myself rich but its all relative...

S'cool Quantum. But personally, that is a point I wholeheartedly get behind.

15:10 / 08.01.09

Because essentially, Mordant wasn't being racist/sexist/classist when ze said it, Stallion.

Whilst it pricks a couple of egos (mine very much included) with people who happen to tick the richwhitemale boxes, it was just short-hand for privileged idiots who feel that Barbelith has to cater to them, and not the other way around. I think.

15:13 / 08.01.09

iamus- http://www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/A_Guide_to_Barbelith_Posting_Etiquette

dorkstallion-
http://fuckoff.com/

15:17 / 08.01.09

why is it acceptable to people here to use "white" as an insult, i'm sorry but whatever anyone says that is just RACISM, pure and simple, yeah i said it....

This is what we call 'risible bullshit' and a clear sign the End Times are upon us. Stallion, if you're a real person please read this link about white male privilege-
http://mmcisaac.faculty.asu.edu/emc598ge/Unpacking.html
or this simpler wiki entry-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege

..but as you're clearly a ficsuit troll please instead simply fuck off.

15:21 / 08.01.09

I'm aware of the guidelines. I have a post further up explaining how I feel with regards to how Barbelith operates on the troll tip at the moment. For those reasons, if I feel that I want to offer counterpoint, I will.

I'm only interested in what somebody is saying now, not what they have said in the past. I'm just as likely to agree with something dark horse has said if I perceive it to have value than I am with something said by anyone else.

That is me and that is how I engage with people. As long as I don't offend Barbelith's posting etiquette then how I relate to him or anyone else here is entirely my decision and right. As is yours to tell him to fuck off.

15:22 / 08.01.09

..but as you're clearly a ficsuit troll please instead simply fuck off.

I'm not convinced. Not only is his posting style too on point to be accidental, his new name, and a couple of posts here and there even start me thinking that he may be playing a long game.

15:26 / 08.01.09

Whilst it pricks a couple of egos (mine very much included) with people who happen to tick the richwhitemale boxes, it was just short-hand for privileged idiots who feel that Barbelith has to cater to them, and not the other way around. I think.

This is what I was meant when I wrote that I know what Mordant means when she uesd it: She's slamming an imperial attitude, not merely people who happen to be richwhitemale.

It was an excuse to vent and make a GM joke at the same time, as his name's been thrown around here alot recently even if his role in the Genesis of the 'lith is no longer relevant to what it's evolved into. Cheap laff. His expression's priceless in the context IMO.

RWM's are an easy and acceptable target right now and it does sting those of us in that category.

Not that it's not necessary: The people in power are still predominantly RWM's, they're still fucking up the world. The popularity of making them the sole acceptable butt of jokes and righteous indignation hurts them not in the least, but if a single one questions himself and learns a bit of humility it's probably worth it.

And Stallion: Time to take off the jokesuit: it's no longer funny.

15:55 / 08.01.09

I don't believe it's meant to be funny.

16:02 / 08.01.09

Whatever, I'll be moving to delete all ds posts added from hereon in, from those fora that I can. That kind of prick we can do without.

16:04 / 08.01.09

I think it's probably time to consider that, actually, Stallion probably isn't a jokesuit, a ficsuit, or any other kind of suit, and that the guy is actually what he appears to be at face value. Making the assumption that his actions and behaviour are some kind of joke strikes me as unhelpful at best, and really quite shockingly insulting at worst, beyond anything that his comments actually deserve.

I think it might then be worthwhile actually explaining to him why he's getting these reactions, rather than assuming that he should somehow just "know", since he clearly doesn't "know", and he's been posting for a few months now.

16:17 / 08.01.09

I don't believe it's meant to be funny either.

Randy, if you want my opinion, which you may not, whether it's agreeable or not, stallion's prescence has been one of the big reasons there actually is discussion at the moment. Every person explaining why he's being a prick is a person demonstrating the values of Barbelith, not just listing them.

If you take him out, the place is getting even more silent and the voice of PBF is less likely to speak up to counterpoint the RWM and then we have no discussion at all again. If you want some life in the place again, then what Barbelith needs is a point of contention.

It has never been better or funnier than when it was arguing about something.

16:22 / 08.01.09

Hey, I can only delete him from Policy, FTV&T and Games. And, really, I can't even do that much - it'll require the agreement of two other mods, which may well be impossible in Games nowadays.

Not talking about deleting existing posts, because that makes everything messy, just future stuff.

16:41 / 08.01.09

The idea of doing that bothers me, to be honest dude.

But that's why I've never wanted to be a moderator.

17:48 / 08.01.09

I don't see it any differently from banning him, though. It's a lot more work, obvs, but there's been no response from Tom and I doubt that Haus would have been of a mind to veto the suggestion.

The most recent posts have me convinced that it's not a legit suit, but a gen-u-wine troll. It's pushing all the buttons too neatly for it to be either an honest eejit or a jokesuit.

Even if that's not the case, there are some battles that you come to realise you'll never win, some people who are incapable of change. I'd hate to see the dwindling number of decent people around here waste their time on a lost cause like this one.

17:57 / 08.01.09

Reading this and the petition thread, I keep coming back to Jefferson Airplane. The records of theirs I have still sound exactly the same, no matter what Jefferson Starship sounded like.

Most folks are smart enough to know the difference between a post that has value from 2002 and a post that doesn't from 2009, aren't they? I can't see that bad chat on Barbelith really reflects that badly on folk who used to post here.

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

19:17 / 08.01.09

stallion and freektemple - it didn't feel to me that mordant was saying "barbelith is broken because we allow rich white males to post here, and it's cool to hate those types".

i believe it meant something more like "barbelith is broken because only rich white males feel safe to post here, and because most of them don't even realize how unwelcome others are made to feel."

19:47 / 08.01.09

That's valid and understandable.

I just didn't get that from: The vast majority of the people who actually made this place worthwhile have already fucked off voluntarily. There is literally NO FUCKING POINT in anyone who isn't a rich overprivileged white man-child posting a single fucking word to this shit-pit anymore.

Even if the majority of posters are rwm's, I haven't really gotten the sense of rwm exclusivity from the posts I've read since I've been here. The posts which would make a non-rwm uncomfortable are usually shot down pretty quickly, although not always as quick as should be.

Maybe I am blinded by my rwm-ness and don't realise how others outside my monkeysphere may react to what I may mistake as commonplace. I know that I've stumbled around like a drunk and offended and have been insensitive without knowing, but have made an effort to make ammends when it was brought to my attention.

Hmmm. Please call me out on any inappropriate behaviour. In fact, you've given me an idea.

ONLY NICE THINGS

20:47 / 08.01.09

Dear all,

You know the bit where we don't post funny pictures in the Policy, because we are trying to at least give the impression that it's where the grown-ups have grown-up talk? Well, now you do. Quantum, you are long enough here to know better. Freektemple, not so much, but there we go. It's a thing. If you feel that a picture is worth a thousand words, feel free to go to the Conversation and post it to Barbannoy. Otherwise, try to write a thousand words.

21:28 / 08.01.09

I'll tell you what. Stallion, if you are indeed a real and misguided person who somehow stumbled in to what seems an inhospitable climate; why don't you go into the archives here and check out some of the discussions on tricky subjects. I'll get you started, why not check out this, this, or this. I just pulled these up, they're good threads, but there are many more really good threads here, which is why so many people here care about the place, and what happens to it. I suggest that you read these, and maybe some others that are linked to in them, in total, to really get an idea of what this place is about. Maybe you'll find it makes you think about things you've not thought about, or maybe you'll think it's a bunch of intellectual wanking.
But that kind of thing is, pretty much, what this place is about. If that's not your thing, then why stay around?

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:00 / 08.01.09

Back on offtopic.

God in Heaven. Dark/Godstallion is very clearly a joke suit. He is intended to parody the intensely insular, self-absorbed and dim posters the owner feels have taken over Barbelith, who see women as alien vag witholders and white men as the last minority it's OK to discriminate against.

This is incredibly obvious. I am surprised that some of you have not been able to make this fairly simple deduction. I am a little tramatised that any of you have chosen to take what is a piece of quite vicious satire directed at you and represent it is a viable manifesto for Barbelith and life in general, but it takes every kind of people, as Robert Palmer once said.

On the plus side, iamus, you've given me an idea. Maybe GM could buy Barbelith.com from Tom? In these times of heightened etc, a decent offer would I'm sure be considered. Having secured it, he could no doubt find some fans who wold be delighted to build a new site that would give fans of his work the kind of forum they deserve.

22:21 / 08.01.09

Maybe you know better, Haus. If you're saying that so forcefully, maybe you know who it is. Fine. Saying that it is incredibly obvious is insulting. There are real people who write exactly like that. Which, if it's a joke, I suppose would be the point, but I'll say again; if it is a joke, it's not that funny. It's not that biting, it's not that clever, it's not "vicious satire". If it's a joke, it's just a waste of energy.

Again, that may be the point.

If it's not a joke... well, it's still a waste of energy, sure.

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:49 / 08.01.09

I don't intend to be insulting, old chap, but isn't it wildly obvious? Possibly I've been doing this for too long, but really?

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