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Underground > Policy & Help >

INTERVENTION (PICS, NSFW depending on your workplace's attitude to fully-clad pictures either of Grant Morrison or of Ron Mael, depending on whether that moderation action goes through)

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Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:26 / 19.01.09

I don't think I've asked for anything to be done away with, have I? I've suggested that anyone who gives a shit about the state of the board stop giving said shit and do something more productive, which is pretty much exactly what you're suggesting. And after about 6 months of turning up to do janitorial here despite being basically trolled off the board, I felt like having a bit of a yell.

ONLY NICE THINGS

19:26 / 19.01.09

You're in the wrong thread, Triplets. You're looking for the "Petition to close Barbelith thread. If you read beyond the first sentence of this thread, you'll find that MC isn't asking for Barbelith to be done away with forever.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:29 / 19.01.09

Ohhh, it's Triplets. Oh okay then.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:37 / 19.01.09

It does seem to me that Mordant is overly bothered, but my perspective could be just plain skewed.

Part of the problem I guess is that to evidence my point would require a metric shedload of work that I'm not interested in doing, made more difficult by the fact that a lot of the offending posts were made at odd hours of the night and put up for deletion. I kind of feel that I've done my bit at this point, people can think what they want to think and good luck to 'em.

Anna de Logardiere

17:12 / 20.01.09

Pingle, yeah but I don't see how people can be so offended by someone whose persona is a drunk grandmother. It's no good marvelling at the apparent blindness of other people, everyone has an individual reaction to those around them, what is extreme to one person is average to another.

is that those people complaining about Alex simply don't have the power to ban - so telling them "ban or shut up" isn't really an ultimatum

No one has ever had the power to ban on barbelith but that never stopped anyone calling for it and constructing threads with all of the necessary links that evidenced behaviour. Even if someone deletes a good proportion of their worst posts some questionable behaviour should be left behind, particularly if the poster is stalking people which has been the suggestion. It doesn't matter who does compile that evidence but it should be done if you want someone to be banned.

Anna de Logardiere

17:14 / 20.01.09

... and if banning doesn't work because it can't be done then you need to confront AG rather than making it a community issue because the community is powerless.

00:50 / 29.01.09

Thank you god you explained it. I had no idea that so long as I post in the persona of a drunk grandmother, I can say and do anything I want.

Oh look, I found the ignore button again.

Anna de Logardiere

09:10 / 29.01.09

No because you wouldn't make me laugh. You would be a shit drunk grandmother.

10:08 / 29.01.09

But *I* would find it funny and thats clearly enough.

Anna de Logardiere

22:19 / 29.01.09

You know when I have a dialogue with someone and I directly respond to them by giving the opposite example to their original point I don't then expect two people to assume I'm making a more general point. I think that you're both bright enough to see Pingle's name, go back to read what was written and gauge that I was deliberately referring to personal taste and the subjectivity of taking things as evident. I wasn't explaining anything, I was in fact pointing out that our responses to each other are very subjective. Pingle said Alex is the only poster in the history of the board where I've truly found the responses from certain members utterly baffling and I am perfectly within my rights to point out that anything can appear baffling from another angle.

The truth is that I'm hearing all these accusations of sexism directed at AG but I've never seen a sexist remark from him that hasn't struck me immediately as a stupid joke. That doesn't mean I'm right, I'm not arguing for humour as a defence but what, am I meant to start agreeing with everyone without any supporting evidence? Mordant has explained that these comments get deleted and I've not been around as consistently in the last few years but there must be something someone can link to? So if you want to make the case to me then make the case. The truth is that when I read this thread as someone who hasn't been harassed, hasn't impartially observed evidence of this sexism and yeah, has often laughed at AG's persona (although this isn't a reason to keep someone around) I see a load of people who don't like someone else being nasty about them. Why is that surprising? None of you have given me anything except your personal judgment. How am I meant to see anything else? You want me to just go with your opinion? I'm a person not a golden retriever.

Anna de Logardiere

22:22 / 29.01.09

Hell I'm not even really defending him here, I'm really trying to tell you that I find all of your behaviour slightly inappropriate.

01:27 / 30.01.09

I find all of your behaviour slightly inappropriate.

That's, um, whatchacallit...rich.
Look. You don't particularly mind Alex, that's fine. You don't agree with others' perceptions of him, that's fair enough. But don't you respect that they have the right to their own opinions and the right to express that here, since here is where they interface with him? I'm sure you get sick of strife and bitching as much as anyone else, but sometimes, other people are just going to take things differently. You said It's no good marvelling at the apparent blindness of other people, everyone has an individual reaction to those around them, what is extreme to one person is average to another. You know that, but still you tell others to shut up about expressing their displeasure instead of letting them vent some, even if it is futile.

I mean, I feel ya; but harassment is mostly based on the perception of those who feel that they are being harassed, and to a certain extent, you give them the benefit of the doubt.

13:15 / 30.01.09

I really shouldn't do this, but since I have some respect for you Ermintrude....

No one is going to assemble an evidenced list of wrongs since being invited to has in the past been qualified with a declaration that no ban is going to happen regardless. So thats a lose/lose.

On top of that, you'd have to be blind not to notice the actual harassment which, contrary to your statement upthread, was largely left to run its course. The last sniping comments made by Alex to Mordant were a few weeks ago, but have been deleted I think. It doesn't matter at this point since Mordant has left, although she is very grateful at having been harassed so *humourously*.

Which is the last point I want to make. You can't in good faith protest that you aren't saying the humour excuses anything, when you keep using the humour to excuse pretty much everything. As you say above, the sexist stuff isn't sexist because its a joke.

Sure, like when Alex said that Mordant reminded him of the wicked witch of the west. Of course, everyone realises it is a joke. It was a joke directed to someone who had declared they were feeling harassed and that they felt the humour was being used a cover for being sexist. Of course, that went unremarked because, well, why single it out? Its all part of a comedy persona and anyone getting annoyed is just humourless.

But I don't really get what is irritating you here, if you are irritated. Like Tsuga says, if you are going to argue from a position of subjectivity then that cuts both ways. I think you are wrong, sure, but you think I'm wrong too. Nothing inappropriate about it.

Anna de Logardiere

11:01 / 31.01.09

Lurid I read three threads in Policy and Help and the occasional thread in Conversation. I didn't know that AG has called Mordant the wicked witch of the west, I'm not blind, that's precisely why I asked to see some links so that I understand why someone is so upset.

Anna de Logardiere

11:07 / 31.01.09

... and why am I irritated? I don't believe in an eye for an eye.

18:42 / 31.01.09

The other reason why you won't get links is because Alex continuously deletes this shit three or four hours after he's posted it - just long enough to ensure that it's been seen by his intended target, but not long enough to allow the rest of the board to become aware of it - usually with a vague promise in the mod request that he realises he's wrong and will pack it in.

This is one of the reasons why I'm no longer prepared to help with the caretaking here, btw.

Anna de Logardiere

20:38 / 31.01.09

I gave up moderation quite a long time ago for similar reasons so I get that.

I understand that I've not come across very well in this thread and that people have got the wrong impression about what I'm saying so I'm going to try to make it a bit clearer. I perceive this method, which is the standard method for dealing with this kind of thing on barbelith as potentially dangerous when there is no board functionality because aggression breeds aggression. There is no banning, moderation is slowly becoming less and less plausible but the community reaction is still to come to Policy and discuss people who shouldn't be here. If AG or someone else harasses you I think that instead of coming to Policy you should take a screen print of the post and when it is deleted you put it back in the thread again as an image and respond to it as if it was never removed. Perhaps that will cut down the instances of unacceptable writing a little. If you feel harassed I don't think you should engage reasonably you should tell people in no uncertain terms to leave you alone without any profound explanation or engagement and if they send you private messages that you find unacceptable give them warning that you will post them in a public thread if they don't stop. In short it is better to humiliate people than behave aggressively in the kind of environment that barbelith is because that aggression cannot be taken away, it is impossible to ban. There isn't an administrator here so there is no community action that isn't immediate or in thread and that's difficult to adapt to but it's really the only thing that can be done. That has been my fundamental problem with the discussion of AG- it's an expression of the way people feel but that's the only meaning it has and I don't know if shouting about it really is making anyone feel better (though I could be wrong)? Better to find an action that you can respond with and act within the current remit of the space, better to respond to actual posts that you dislike that someone has written.

21:30 / 31.01.09

The idea that AG is being harassed is ridiculous. People get upset at his behaviour, he promises to change/keep out of the policy and then doesn't. Myself, I've given up at this point.

But your suggestion, Ermin, that what is actually lacking is the presentation of this elusive bad behaviour for something to happen is not credible to me. Mordant more or less came to the realisation that her being harassed wasn't something the community cared about and comments like the one I mentioned were unremarkable. I agree with that assessment. Just to prove the point, I found the post its here.

Note that you replied two posts afterwards. I think you saw it, thought it was a funny joke, and proceded to defend AG. Which is fine for you. But, really, this has nothing to do with you not noticing stuff.

Anna de Logardiere

21:57 / 31.01.09

Lurid, I'm going to reply to you via pm about my personal response to that thread but I want you to know that if I'd been more with what was happening on barbelith I would have backed Mordant up.

01:51 / 01.02.09

I'm sorry that I've caused this much hurt.

I'd factored out the hassle (i.e. I hadnn't thought about it, really) to do with deleting an awful series of posts.

12:06 / 02.02.09

I do feel that anyone who wants to have a go at me should do it directly, though, rather than via whatever friends, in real life, I may or may not have.

Lurid Archive, you're effectively bullying Ermintrude here, on the basis that you don't like the company she keeps. It's a) depressing, b) silly and c) totally ridiculous for you, Lurid Archive, and your, frankly, pointlessly foul-mouthed partner, to carry on attacking board members because you don't like the company they keep.

If anyone wants to talk about what a dismal load of shit I am, I'll be here all week. But please, guys, ladies, to address your remarks (which, inevitably perhaps, I won't much mind about) to the monster what wrote whatever it was you were offended by in the first place. And not his pals.

20:44 / 02.02.09

Alex, I'm sure if Ermintrude feels put upon or bullied, she would express that; while it's a nice trait to stick up for your friends, it doesn't seem necessary at this point. If I'm wrong, however, I'll gladly shut up.

I'm curious, what (and who) is "pointlessly foul-mouthed"?

Anna de Logardiere

21:32 / 02.02.09

Calm, calm please. Everything is okay but thank you for your defence. Lurid and Mordant were understandably upset because I was quite rude and obnoxious to them last year while defending you. I didn't understand the context of Mordant's remarks at the time but far more significantly it wasn't exactly a time of great clarity for me so I was unsympathetic, mean and in the wrong. I have spoken to them privately about it because I feel that I was out of line and they get that it was because of me and not them. It's definitely the case that when I'm rude to someone I believe they have every right to be just as rude back to me and that I owe the apology.

Now look AG, put your nice hat on for a sec. Even if you don't like someone it sucks to call them pointlessly foul-mouthed, especially when it's as applicable to yourself. Sadly we are at the point where we have to co-exist so please try to think of yourself as a daisy in a meadow or I shall troll you and let's face it, I'd be really, really good at that.

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