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INTERVENTION (PICS, NSFW depending on your workplace's attitude to fully-clad pictures either of Grant Morrison or of Ron Mael, depending on whether that moderation action goes through)

 
  

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Quantum
07:56 / 12.01.09
the dozen or so people who would really want to go through them could just get a zip file of the whole site as part of the handover process.

Hmm, is that possible already? I'd like a zip file of the whole site I could then cherrypick to create a best-of-barbelith archive on my desktop.
Then I'd like to make a daily quote generator like an igoogle gadget so each day my PC would say something like
"So: was the 90s a golden age of relatively discreet class antagonism? Or in our 'meritocratic' society, is it okay to mock the poor/lacking in taste as it's their own fault anyway?" or "GANESH KNOWS TRUTH. GANESH IS STRONG. A MAN MAY RAISE A DRINK TO GANESH." or "Welcome about the Barblestar Galactalith, the last surviving military ship of Mankind. On board are a rag-tag bunch of military types, and almost certainly the odd Cylon sleeper-agent or two. Also, everyone of any significance is hott."

That would rule. Then I'd happily get behind the url going to GM- since it's namechecked in the letters column in the comic, you're always going to get Invisibles fans turning up, and it seems a shame not to give them a GM fansite.

Sell to Grant!
 
 
Spaniel
09:36 / 12.01.09
I'd like a zip file too. Some hope.

Realistically I'll just continue to do what I always do with threads that I like: save them one at a time. They're not coming too thick and fast these days, so I think I'll manage.

I'm with El Directo, let it limp on. If people get something from it, that's great. If they don't then they should exercise some self control and bugger off. Easier said than done, yes, but policing the webby activities of the frustrated members of this board isn't the responsibility of those who still get something out of the site (even if it's a diminishingly small something).

My only objection to keeping a Barbelith that resembles the status quo ticking over is that I'm very keen on the sell it to GM idea. Of course, it would require the man to want to buy it, but in principle the idea would appear to be sound.

Nnnn... maybe we should be thinking about turning Mindless Ones into an unofficial fan-forum. We're pretty much seen as a GM fansite as it is (was never my intention - thanks, Amy).
 
 
Spaniel
09:49 / 12.01.09
(I appreciate that you, Haus and Randy, are in a very shitty position)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:43 / 12.01.09
Boboss: if you want to dl the site, there are lots of free programs that will do this for you. I used a free trial copy of Inspyder's Web2Disk.

On a related note, anyone know of a utility that will let me dl my PMs? Or do I have to keep going through the damn things manually?
 
 
Spaniel
10:49 / 12.01.09
Thanks for the link!

I am now lurking on Liminal Nation, by the way. I will post at some point as I have some things I'd like to talk about, but for the moment I prefer the shadows.

Just like Batman
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:55 / 12.01.09
I saw yr name on the list--was frightfully braced thereby.

Incidentally, I think I have discovered a solution to the PM issue, if anyone else needs it: Firefox do an add-on called Scrapbook which seems to have done the job. So, yay.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:26 / 12.01.09
I don't really want to, but I feel a responsibility unpack the "rich" element of the topic abstract a bit.

My own final Barbestraw was dropped round about here. It wasn't the degree of offence, just the whle... vibe, I guess.

The topic of the way social privilege and access to an artistic career, esp. in the fine arts, came up in a Temple thread. A member noted for occasionally posting contentious material for his own entertainment made a longish, rather agressive post attacking this suggestion. Note the choice of figures from the history of art selected to argue against societal privilege as an advantage in an artistic career: the daughter of a noted photographer, the son of a successful composer in a position of considerable authority and repute... to me, these were obviously deliberate choices, selected to provoke a response. So I put in for a del., copy the text, flag the post.

And the response... looking at it now, it's still kind of unbelieveable. I tried to be cool about it, but it felt like falling into Bizarro World: here were all of these people agreeing that class doesn't impact at all on your chances of making it in fine arts? I mean, really? To me this is like the most obvious, axiomatic thing in the world. I guess I could have gone into the topic or art and privilege in more depth, but it honestly felt like explaining that water is wet, you know? And Haus had laid out a couple of examples in thread, so I let it go.

And then I went on that retreat thing, and stuff happened, and it was pretty awesome, and I didn't really look much at the B. for a while. When I got back there was all this weird stuff about how I was either supposed to be following that poster around with a broom or possibly that I was forming some kind of Axis of Uppity with another disgruntled former Barbeperson, not sure which. Oh, and some kind of veiled accusation that I was either mind controlling Lurid or that we're the same guy, although it's all kind of irrelevant at this point. And LN was starting to come to life, and the forum that the folks I was on retreat with run was pretty jumping, so I basically lost interest. I logged in every couple of days, voted on mod requests if there were any, logged back out.

I came back to the Convo to play with Stoatie, assuming that a few one-line joke posts couldn't do any harm, but then I had to go and look in that policy thread and then Googled "Barbelith dark stallion" and then there was this kind of twanging sound and I woke up with bits of spleen under my fingernails again...

Hah. Still can't quite believe it about that art/class thing. Oh well. Not my problem now.
 
 
Tsuga
21:55 / 12.01.09
I missed that bit of contention, somehow. I wish that you'd started a thread on that topic, really; I understand and respect the point you were making, but I disagree with some of what you said. But, that's not your problem, either.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:20 / 14.01.09
If I had done that, it would have opened me up to further harrassment from that poster--something I was thoroughly sick of by that point. It had already been made very clear to me that no matter how carefully I laid out the case that this poster was engaging in deliberate trolling and/or deliberate harrassment of individuals, no matter how many examples I provided or how much detail I went into, anytihng I said was just going to be ignored.

It wasn't just that I wasn't going to get support--I'm not right all the time, I don't expect people to agree with me all the time, but eventually I realised that everything I said would be ignored. As in, there would be no response. At all.

Sure, if I let it get to me, got upset the way he seemed to want, and posted shouty--then there'd be a response all right. I'd get chewed out and told what a lovely guy this poster was, how I was no fun, I was being aggressive and escalating the conflict and to clear off if I didn't like it and so on. If I posted a careful, measured, evidenced comment on the problem, though, that would evidently just end up in people's mental dustbin.

Nobody would respond saying "I can see what you're saying here but I think you're mistaken because ABC" or "I think you've completely misread that comment, and what was intended was more like XYZ." No response. Nothing.

So I was in this weird position where it seemed like it was okay for someone to post outright attacks to threads on issues like class, the environment, and especially feminism, and have this treated as no more than a bit of "your favourite band sucks" joshing. It was okay for me personally to be demeaned, harrassed, followed round the board, get weird drunken PMs at 3am, and get my head bitten off any time I tried to do anything about the situation, with no explanation as to how I might be mistaken about what was going on or support in understanding why this person was OK when other people doing the same thing weren't. There were other boards where this didn't happen, so I went there instead.

The only reason I kept trying as long as I did was I got PMs and comments elsewhere from people saying they felt the same way, but none of those people felt able to come and comment publically. I'm left kind of wishing that none of them had bothered, really. PMs aren't a lot of help.

I'm not saying this because I expect or even want sanctions--at this point, irrelevant. But I feel like I got used as a psychological toy in a game of Wind Up The Nutter--and not just by that one poster, either. Hope the other players had a good time. I didn't.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:47 / 14.01.09
SAGE, if the above had been written by that Goth guy, you know the one I mean, I'm pretty sure you'd have been first in line to put the boot in.

'Doesn't do enough magical practice,' grumble, grumble - Accordingly, it's all so depressing, somehow.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
04:09 / 15.01.09
How you can see yourself as in any way an oppressed minority on Barbelith is beyond me. Everybody loves you. Arguably, teh board is 'Top Gear' to your Jeremy Clarkson.
 
 
electric monk
12:35 / 15.01.09
Shut. The. Fuck. Up. Granny.
 
 
illmatic
12:58 / 15.01.09
How you can see yourself as in any way an oppressed minority on Barbelith is beyond me. Everybody loves you. Arguably, teh board is 'Top Gear' to your Jeremy Clarkson.

She is certainly someone who is consistently got at by a drunken arsehole, isn't she, though?
 
 
Automatic
14:22 / 15.01.09
I LOVE reading these policy threads. Seriously, I'm sitting here with a big fucking grin on my face.

I know I don't post too often, but I read the archives all the time. If this site ever does vanish in a puff of smoke, I'll truly miss you you all. Especially Haus, because he reminds me so much of Ignatius J. Reilly.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:53 / 15.01.09
You know, Alex, it's not even been a week since you said that you were going to stop posting in Policy threads for the next six months.

I honestly believe that there's increasingly good reason to propose getting rid of you based on your harassment of certain - always female - members of the board. The way things are right now, I doubt that anybody else'll agree, but I'm certain that that wouldn't have been the case a few years ago.

Stop posting in Policy now.
 
 
Quantum
15:58 / 15.01.09
Hmm, maybe I should start trolling granny. He certainly is the Clarkson in this Top Gear, loud mouthed, obnoxious, sexist and more annoying than Gordon Ramsay.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
16:14 / 15.01.09
Oh for fucks sake, just fucking ban him or shut the fuck up.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:22 / 15.01.09
Y'know, there's still an element of democracy about these things.

[edit] And also an element of the banning procedure not actually working.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
16:27 / 15.01.09
In lieu of functional banning - I'm going with Q's solution: troll the fucker til he whines.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:09 / 15.01.09
There is no way that is not a good idea. It will totally achieve your goals.
 
 
Tsuga
22:46 / 15.01.09
Right, that won't work, banning doesn't happen, but ignoring doesn't do much good for those who aren't the ignoring type, or those feeling particularly harassed and wanting to address it. I'm sure if Alex gets too much grief, he'll bitch about "the board" liking Mordant too much and make a show of leaving for a month or two. C'mon, it'll be fun. As far as I can tell, this is more or less common board behavior, I'm only sorry that people's feelings get hurt. I don't really want anyone to be trolled, but you have to admit, Alex is being a wad. I think Mordant may be taking things too personally, but Alex also knows what he's saying, and it's purposefully needling, which is obviously shitty and the definition of trolling.
Right, Alex?
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
08:41 / 16.01.09
Oh what a fucking surprise, you can't even ban him. Why don't you just whinge about him for the next year then and darkly mutter the word harassment to yourselves under your breaths? Shit, why don't you all just sit down and cry and make this place even grimmer than it already is? After all everyone hates you because you just tried to make barbelith a better place, that's what constant accusations do. They make barbelith better.
 
 
Proinsias
12:24 / 16.01.09
I don't follow. Are you trying to make Barbelith better by whinging about the whingers whinging?

Did you decide to make that post instead of sitting down and crying about the whinging?

Are you accusing anyone in particular?

I know I've little to no input around here but I can't help asking as the whinging about whinging seems even less contructive than the whinging about broken fuctionality and problem posters.
 
 
iamus
13:17 / 16.01.09
Can't we all just get along?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:15 / 16.01.09
I see that the aggressive positivity thing has done wonders for your emotional state, Anna.

I know Alex is a chum of yours, but do you not think it's a *little* bit rich of you to constantly be defending him when, as I recall, you were one of the most vocal posters during the 'misogyny on Barbelith' period?

FWIW, I'm waiting on a response from Haus on the issue. I've got access to Tom through means other than email, so if it's a yay, I can try and point him to any banning request email that way.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:25 / 16.01.09
And yeah, harassment. That'd be following specific people around the board and refusing to allow them to post without ridiculing or belittling them at every available opportunity. The paranoidwriter-like inability to refrain from posting to Policy would just be a side-issue, really, if those posts weren't doing exactly the same thing.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:30 / 16.01.09
As one of the people who often (not always, but often) finds Granny funny, at this point I really do think the shutting the fuck up option would be best, this not being one of those occasions that intersects much with the "funny" circle, but that crosses over fairly heavily with the "being a dick" one.

Venn diagrams. Even just conceptual ones rock.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
21:08 / 17.01.09
Tsuga, I find the "taking too personally" thing a bit... well, uncomfortable. It reads to me the same as the "oversensitive" line that I'm sure you've seen/heard used before to people reacting to prejudice and harassment, and when said to someone with openly stated mental health issues, it seems to me that bit more icky.

... And yes, I really would like to see Alex banned. The only reason I could produce for Flyboy's defence of him before, given that anyone else who had spouted similar levels of sexist crap he'd have torn apart at every turn, was that he was real-life friends with Alex, and Ermintrude's defence similarly makes much more sense to me now I know she's also a friend of his. I honestly can't see how it's not blindingly obvious to anyone that he has been repeatedly misogynistic and consistently harassing.
 
 
Tsuga
21:46 / 17.01.09
Well, in my own defense, I did say "I think" and "may be". I could very well be wrong, I can only speculate on what I can observe. It may not be fair, because I am not Mordant, and I could never know the perspective, past, and experiences that make up Mordant. I think I've said before, Alex does not personally bother me except that he bothers others intentionally. I don't think there's anything he could say here that would really hurt me, but that is coming from my own perspective, past and experiences; while I didn't have it incredibly easy, I realize it still has it's own built-in privilege that colors my attitude. It does seem to me that Mordant is overly bothered, but my perspective could be just plain skewed. I try to consider others' perspectives, but I'm sure I can't always get it right.
Sorry, Mordant, if you think that I was unfair, I do respect you a great deal.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
09:53 / 18.01.09
I know you meant no harm, and I don't want to press it too much, but it's just a thought for the future; I'm not sure anyone has the right to decide for someone else what the right degree of "bothered" should be. I've been told or had it implied plenty of times - generally when responding to something offensive - that I'm taking something too personally or am being too sensitive, and I don't think I've once appreciated it. Mordant's mileage may vary, but in my opinion, holding back such judgements is generally a good idea.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:04 / 18.01.09
Not, Pingles, to include either Flyboy or Ermintrude in whatever category you want to put me in!

Honestly, they think I'm pathetic, too.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
22:21 / 18.01.09
Pingle, Randy, I just sat down with a piece of paper and off the top of my head I have the phone numbers or personal email addresses of at least 33 members of barbelith who I have met over the last 8 years. Obviously I've met quite a few more than that and I'm probably in contact with more. Perhaps that will go some way to explaining that when I agree or disagree with someone on barbelith I don't do it because I like them or know them, primarily any assumption that I don't like Mordant as much as AG is wrong. I'm not even trying to defend AG because I know that it's hopeless, you don't read his words in the way that I do and I can't explain that to you or anyone else who finds him offensive. That's not my problem here though, my problem is that this has been going on for 2 years and I don't think it's fair to anyone and I want it done with. I don't want Mordant to feel harassed, I don't want AG to feel harassed (because if I was him I would) and I don't want to read this kind of shit on my screen anymore so honestly either he gets banned or everyone needs to stop discussing it. I'm good either way, I just don't want to walk into a thread expecting a general Policy discussion and find a banning thread aimed at someone who I've never had a problem with. Frankly I ask you, who can blame me if I don't want to see people I like getting at each other? Yeah sure Mordant feels harassed, I'm not doubting that, we have to function on the notion that if people feel harassed the community acts on it. I'm also happy with that but I'm not happy with how recurring this is. I've never been happy with barbelith's inhumane way of banning people by talking about them as if they're shit on its shoes, real trolls get a kick out of it and people who are okay really have to watch people talk about them like they're criminals and call me an idealist but I believe it's fucked up.

Basically don't accuse me of favouring people because I know them, I'd never argue with anyone if that was the case.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
22:27 / 18.01.09
And AG be quiet, I treat you in exactly the same way as everyone else, with more kindness than you deserve.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
08:36 / 19.01.09
A large problem with that, as I see it, is that those people complaining about Alex simply don't have the power to ban - so telling them "ban or shut up" isn't really an ultimatum. And the reason I and other people keep mentioning Alex, despite the response this often receives, is simply that he keeps being offensive.

The thing is, Alex is the only poster in the history of the board where I've truly found the responses from certain members utterly baffling; with you and Flyboy in particular, who have on various other occasions consistently highlighted and rightly argued over any number of instances of misogynistic crap being posted to the board, it just makes no sense to me at all that Alex has got a pass and even been defended when he has posted stuff which to me seems self-evidently and egregiously misogynist. And that he's been harassing has I think pretty much been conceded by Alex himself, thus the periodic (broken) promises to stay away from certain things.

As far as the "real trolls vs. people who are okay really" thing, my inclination is that probably the majority of people who have been banned have been people who post offensive bilge with a sense that what they're posting is right and righteous, rather than people posting such stuff specifically to get a rise. This is a bit more difficult to judge than other things, but I get the impression that if some people "get a kick out of it" and other people just feel needlessly attacked, Alex is more in the former group than most who've been discussed.
 
 
Triplets
18:57 / 19.01.09
OK that's it, I'm staging an intervention.

"Me! Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!"

When I stopped liking or getting enjoyment out of my last job/SWAT KATS I didn't ask for it to be done away with forever. I just didn't interact with it anymore.
 
  

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