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Theoretical Language

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
11:24 / 11.02.08
I might be alone here, but I really don't see what's difficult about Butler's piece. If you have an idea of Marx and Althusser, what's confusing or difficult about it? I'm genuinely confused...
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:57 / 11.02.08
Lurid, elene made a claim that the only thinkers making a radical political project out of desiring not to be transparently comprehensible to everyone were white, male, middle-class and bastions of the academy. I gave two examples of people I consider to be engaged in that political project, who are neither white, male, middle-class or necessarily in the academy. That's hardly 'identity politics,' is it?

(By the way, I'm still waiting for a response to that point from elene.)

And I %love% how Judith Butler gets trotted out as the whipping boy on occasions like this. It's so predictable. I do understand that passage, precisely because, as Haus suggests, I have a prior familiarity with Marx and Althusser. One should, in order to read Butler -- and a familiarity with Freud, Lacan and Foucault doesn't go badly either. I find the suggestion that it's incomprehensible slightly confusing, too.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:59 / 11.02.08
More to the point, Nussbaum's summary is so simplistic as to be laughable. It's bowdlerised.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:49 / 11.02.08
I'm not getting you, Disco. When you say,

elene made a claim that the only thinkers making a radical political project out of desiring not to be transparently comprehensible to everyone were white, male, middle-class and bastions of the academy.

are you referring to,

You mean elitist when you say radical, Disco? Those who produce these texts are, by and large, very secure, middle-class, university lecturers. What’s radical about it??

Which doesn't mention white and male. That the examples you gave weren't middle class is also a touch contentious, if you ask me.

Haus: To me, a non-expert who probably isn't the intended audience, the sentence by Butler is enormously harder to comprehend than Nussbaum's summary. It *looks* like bad writing to me, but then I am unaccumstomed to the stylistic conventions of Butler's intended audience. While it is laudably specific, I'm not sure that one sentence is really enough for a critique. Having said that, speaking again as an outsider, I assume that for Nussbaum to write such a piece there is at least a case to be made about Butler's lack of clarity.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:42 / 11.02.08
I might be alone here, but I really don't see what's difficult about Butler's piece. If you have an idea of Marx and Althusser, what's confusing or difficult about it? I'm genuinely confused...

Cadence, syntax, the length of the sentences and the rapidity with which ideas from Marx and Althusser are thrown against eachother in the dialectic. Which, of course, isn't a big problem as long as one has Disco's prior familiarity with Marx and Althusser (because one would then know about the items or ideas which were being compared and constrasted, just as a science paper about the skeleton would be easy as long as one knew the names of all the different parts).

What we are left with, and Disco, you seem to be implying this, is something which is not a primary text - you can't just get straight into it as you can with Freud or Marx, there being a very specific pre-requisite of familiarity. Obviously you need to know some stuff to get into Marx or Freud but not to this level of specificity.

Is this a problem? Well, not neccesarily. A lot of important books are certainly 'not primary texts', and many certainly benefit from wide reading around them (e.g. Titus Andronicus). It does mean, however, that if there's a gap in the market for a primary text on Feminism, Butler's book isn't going to fill it.
 
 
elene
16:36 / 11.02.08
I'm sorry, Disco, I suppose I should have responded, even though you didn't really respond to me but instead created your own, modified version of what I'd said to respond to. A straw man? Well, I thought I'd skip that.

As Lurid has already pointed out I mentioned neither race nor gender. Indeed my describing academics as middle-class was entirely superfluous. Bad writing, I'm afraid. With the exception of the essay "The Master's Tools Will Never Dismantle the Master's House," I know Audre Lorde only as a poet. I'm not sure what the point of naming her is, nor why Spivak should necessarily be an exception, though she may well be. Doesn't an exception only prove the point?

Instead of waiting for Butler to be provided as a 'specific' you could have responded to the quote from Deleuze that Foust referenced but neglected to clarify earlier in the thread. Or that execrable piece of Barthes. Though in that case, as with the quote from Butler, the meaning is clear.

When I read Nussbaum's interpretation of the Butler, I was sure she'd missed something, that, as you say, she'd bowdlerised it. On re-reading however, though I felt there must be more to it, that feeling never condensed into meaning, for me. Please elucidate.

By the way, I am familiar with the extremely clear work Freud and Marx (no, not all of it), the lucid and deeply interesting Foucault and the deliberately obscure Lacan. I've never read any Althusser. I can and have read Butler (her Gender Trouble) but it's definitely harder than it need be, for exactly the reasons All Acting Regiment has stated in the previous post.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:38 / 11.02.08
Obviously you need to know some stuff to get into Marx or Freud but not to this level of specificity.

I dunno - speaking personally I find that if you don't know quite a lot about Hegel and Greek mythology, you aren't really understanding Marx or Freud; you might think you are, but that's not the same thing. If you don't know Hegel, you may as well not bother with Heidegger. If you don't know Plato you probably should get over there before you take a tilt at Kant, and so on.

Feminism, however, seems to be a bit of a special case, because you are only allowed to have one book about feminism in existence at any one time and therefore it has not only to be totally accessible but also deliver clear and measurable improvement to the condition of women's lives (see also queer theory and postcolonial studies), but it's not totally unknown for works to reference other works, explicitly or implicitly. I'm a bit confused about why the particular conditions are being applied to feminist, queer and postcolonial theory, but they do at least appear to be being applied consistently.
 
 
HCE
20:05 / 11.02.08
I can and have read Butler (her Gender Trouble) but it's definitely harder than it need be, for exactly the reasons All Acting Regiment has stated in the previous post.

Well, what he stated was that it (where it=a book about theory, or perhaps it=a book by Butler) has a very specific pre-requisite of familiarity (with the ideas/books/writers with which Butler is engaging). That suggests that the problem is not that the text is harder than it need be, but that the reader is less prepared than need be. Right? Or did I misunderstand? I'm not really sure how the unsuitability of Butler's work as a sort of Feminism 101 text is relevant? Is there some reason why it should be suitable?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
20:29 / 11.02.08
Haus, what motivates your assertion that only one text is allowed at any one time for feminist, queer and post-colonial theory? I read this as slightly hyperbolic, but as the good Gricean you are I'm sure there's some content referenced I'm not getting here.

My limited impression of these fields is that they are quite divergent in internal scope and definitional work.
 
 
elene
21:13 / 11.02.08
Have you read Gender Trouble, brb?
 
 
elene
21:57 / 11.02.08
I’m going to bed, so I can’t wait for your answer, brb. I’m guessing Gender Trouble means nothing special to you. It’s just some other theory text.

Well, a few years ago Gender Trouble was the hot new feminist text. You know (or not), the Gyn/Ecology of its day. I suppose I just got suckered by the spin, but I swallowed the notion it contained a genuine big idea. It took a long time to find out it didn’t, and even then, I wasn’t really sure.
 
 
HCE
01:58 / 12.02.08
elene, sorry I didn't get a chance to reply to you earlier -- I was out all day and just got back in. I'm afraid I don't follow the argument you are making. You were disappointed or dissatisfied with Butler, which I can certainly understand. But after that there seem to be a few different branches.

One is the branch that AAR suggested, which is that her books don't work well as a feminist primer. I agree with him in that I don't think they do, but then I don't think they were meant to, and frankly I wonder what the point is of that observation -- is there really somebody out there who is suggesting that people who know nothing about feminism should start with Butler? That seems bizarre.

Then there is the branch in which you say that Gender Trouble was a hot feminist text, and that you found it to be lacking in big ideas. I don't know what the social or academic circle was in which that book (because of word of mouth? because of marketing?) was so important, probably because I am not a part of it. But if the book has no big ideas, then surely the problem is the lack of content, rather than the language in which it is presented, whether simple or complex?

On a side note, the tone of your last two posts suggests to me that you are possibly irritated with me, and I want to assure you that I am not claiming to fail to understand you in an attempt to be sarcastic, or anything like that. I genuinely don't see how AAR's post connects with yours, or what else you're trying to say beyond the fact that you found Butler disappointing and not as great as hyped up to be.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:33 / 12.02.08
Feminism, however, seems to be a bit of a special case, because you are only allowed to have one book about feminism in existence at any one time

I didn't say that, though, did I? There should be as many books as authors feel there's a good reason to write. And I didn't mean 'primary text' as in 'the one text', I meant it as in a text that could get you in on the basic level of feminism. I think The Second Sex can do this but it's not and nor should it be the only one.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:11 / 12.02.08
Well, then, you've rather answered your own issue there, when you say:

It does mean, however, that if there's a gap in the market for a primary text on Feminism, Butler's book isn't going to fill it.

It seems that here is no such gap. You've just named one such text - Simone de Beauvoir's The Second Sex. To which we could add The Feminine Mystique, The Female Eunuch. One could then add secondary texts whose specific aim is to collate and place in a context the works that helped to define feminist thought, such as "What is Feminism" by Chris Beasley or "Feminism, a Very Short Introduction" by Margaret Walters. As such, complaining that Gender Trouble is not a book that one could enjoy if one read it with no previous knowledge of feminism or of western philosophy is a bit like complaining that An Introduction to Particle Physics Book 2: Introducing Advanced Particle Physics is incomprehensible, and the time spent writing it would have been far better used writing some sort of Introduction to Particle Physics 1.

This all assuming a hierarchical progression about which I am a bit dubious, admittedly.
 
 
elene
16:05 / 12.02.08
Well, I’d thought what All Acting Regiment meant by primary text was the 'original'. Secondary texts comment on and criticise primary texts. Clearly such a notion is problematic when applied to theory rather than, say, art, but I think work that contains new ideas rather than merely commentary on the ideas of others could be described as such. The idea of Gender Trouble serving as a feminist primer never occurred to me at all, brb. I had no idea what you meant by that in your first post.

Anyway, I was wrong. I’ll leave it to the rest of you to continue this discussion.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:20 / 12.02.08
Well, I’d thought what All Acting Regiment meant by primary text was the 'original'. Secondary texts comment on and criticise primary texts.

That's what I got from my History O-Levels, certainly - the primary text is the poster from WW1, the secondary text is the history book talking about it. In those terms, Gender Trouble isn't really a secondary text, although it certainly _references_ other texts, but then so did "The Second Sex". I can see what he's going for, though, I think - that some books are like tins of sardines, and have their own key, and others are like tins of soup, and need an external source to open them... And I feel, personally, that even the ones with keys still need you to know roughly what sardines are, the institution of cannery, the principle of leverage and that sort of thing.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
07:21 / 13.02.08
The tins thing is actually pretty OTM, actually.
 
 
Albert Most
15:55 / 16.04.08
Well, someone in this thread asked whether or not - or implied somewhere along the way that - the POINT of much of the jargon-laden obscurity that characterizes contemporary po-mo theory is, in fact, to: (and i'll add the qualifier "roughly" here, just to cover my butt) allow for a variety of interpretive analyses, and thus implicitly challenge the notions of a 'master discourse' with which we have retroactively branded so much prior theoretical work (a trend perhaps ironically iconized in the almost majesterial ambiguities of Derrida)- so that, ideally, we end up reading texts like those of Lacan not as definitive descriptive statements of concrete and accessible empirical phenomena, or even as a solidly-structured meta-commentary on such, but rather as elegant ideological language paintings applicable to the world in any myriad variety of (often mutually distinct) ways. Certainly then, the reader can be forgiven if, when confronted with the abstruse vernacular of, say, Lyotard, s/he chooses to exercise a little interpretive license in extracting and applying whatever meaning s/he manages to glean from it? And, by the same token, the author should probably be forgiven if, in adopting some subtly nuanced alternate point of view on some PREVIOUS, equally subtly nuanced point of view, s/he happens to fail to render that viewpoint with perfect clarity . . .

Yet, it should also be fairly acknowledged that there are some "writers"/academics who use the precedents set by their more brilliant predecessors in theoretical obscurantism in an attempt to APPEAR as if they have more to say than they in fact do; and, by making the relatively simple and straightforward unecessarily complicated and inaccessible, massage into their own egos the false notion that the ideas they are working with are somehow especially challenging (on the level of, say, advanced theoretical physics, rather than on the level of what is more often than not just another new way of describing some concept or phenomenon that's long-since been relegated by the academy or intelligensia to the realm of the commonplace and/or mundane). Making the trite fashionable again by dressing it up in recontextualized words misleadingly applied and ornately arranged, as it were.

Indeed, the book is the phallus of the i/ntellect, the pen truly mightier than the sword (get it?) Words are not precious commodities, but there's a sense in which meanings are - especially in the publish or perish realm of professional academia . . .

At best, we are simply reducing ourselves to comely poetry - at worst we are using the platform of much greater thinkers' ideas to broadcast our own narcissistic demands for intellectual validation.

Like everything else about selfhood and our attempts to ontologize our cosmic insignificance, it can get ugly, but taking all of it too seriously is, in many cases, a failure equally and simultaneously attributable to both author AND reader.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:27 / 17.04.08
so that, ideally, we end up reading texts like those of Lacan not as definitive descriptive statements of concrete and accessible empirical phenomena, or even as a solidly-structured meta-commentary on such, but rather as elegant ideological language paintings applicable to the world in any myriad variety of (often mutually distinct) ways.

Without wanting to be crude, if this is the case then why the toss are academics paid a fair chunk of money to write lengthy books on/in theory when we might as well stare at a pebble or a duplo brick and interpret/apply that?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:31 / 17.04.08
It's also a good way to shirk one's responsibility: one makes a claim, someone tells you that it's empirically false or unprovable or wrong for some other reason, and your reply to them is: 'Ah, but it's not meant to be empirically true! It's a language-painting!'
 
 
Albert Most
14:27 / 17.04.08
In one sense, this is totally true, AAR - and i don't presume to speak for the Judith Butlers (or other lesser theorists and academic hacks) of the world. But in the case of theory like that of Lacan, Derrida, and other such obscurantists, there are some things to consider:

1) Our analyses of pebbles and duplo brick would probably require, at a minimum, some sort of lysergic enhancement if we were to glean from them interpretations and applications on anything even approaching the level of those offered by the aforementioned thinkers.

2) Again in the case of the aforementioned, the ideas presented are not meant to, and are never really presented in such a way that they can, be completely empirically substantiated. Many, if not most, of these ideas function on the level of metaphor and the metaphysical - They are put forth to change the thought-styles and cognitive methodologies through which we filter empirical experiences, precisely as a means of opening up new interpretive approaches to evidence and facts, rather than in an attempt to prove anything final about the world - The same goes for approaches to text in much of literary theory.

3) The pretensions and general willful ignorance of heavily Marxist-inspired thinkers, whereby their ideas lay claim to empirical validation through historical analysis, are not universally shared by all contemporary theorists, even those who apply certain aspects of marxist theory to their work (again, this is particularly true in literary studies). Marxist-inspired examinations of the ways in which capitalist ideologies function in the writings of William Faulkner, for instance, can be illuminating in many ways (for those who have such academic inclinations), but outside of the text itself, don't generally claim to posit anything empirically verifiable about the world.

4) If postmodernism has shown us nothing else, it is that language is inseperable from human thought: thus, speaking and writing in new ways, employing new linguistic structures and presenting the traditional in unfamiliar guises is IN ITSELF a worthy exercise (this is where the analogy with poetry comes into play) because it challenges our settled modes of thought and undermines the intellectual inertia whereby all information and communication must be channelled through, and conformed with, the pre-existing phenomenological framework upon which we are so dependent most of the time.

In other words: if you allow it to, and if you exercise discretion in what writers and ideas you devote your time to, simple things like examining pebbles or duplo brick (or, more likely, a newspaper article or sitcom rerun) can become a lot less boring (and even in some ways, more enlightening) than they might previously have been.

But, the obvious caveat is that, like anything else, you have to take the good with the bad. Fiction, film, art in general - this is true of everything - theory is no exception.
 
 
Dusto
18:58 / 31.05.08
My two cents:

Taking Wittgenstein out of context in a Books thread, I asserted that what can be stated can be stated clearly. I believe this to be the case in Theory (as well as science). This does not preclude the neccesity of specialized language; as has been stated in this thread, physics uses specialized language for the sake of both simplicity and specificity of expression. However, physics has the benefit of having a real ground (though some theorists may dispute me here) against which to measure its jargon. This isn't the case with theory, and I think theoretical jargon tends towards obscurantism precisely for this reason. When speaking of "ideology," are we speaking of the dictionary definition, Marx's conception of the term, Althusser's, or post-Althusserians'? I think Fredric Jameson points to this problem obliquely in the opening chapter of The Political Unconscious when he apologizes for the fact that he's about to use a bunch of jargon, solely for the reason that he's about to discuss the writings of a bunch of people who use such jargon.

Another problem I find, more or less related: while figurative language can be useful in discussing theoretical concepts, too often original figurative language crystallizes into dead metaphors in the hands of those who follow the originators of such terms. As has been suggested in this thread, such crystallization tends towards a specialized code that can only be deciphered by a "theoretical elite." Aside from obscuring meaning, this also seems antithetical to the populism that underlies Marxist theory, at the very least.

Also, with regard to the Butler quote, aside from the minor point that she marks Althusserian theory as having changed, what exactly is lost in the Nussbaum translation? And can we all at least agree that Butler's quote could at least stand to have been broken up into more than one sentence?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:38 / 01.06.08
Well, a thing said in one sentence (always an epigram, or do they follow more specific rules?) is pithy and mnemonic, so there's an argument for using the style, although here, it's such a long sentence that the possible gains seem to be lost. There are other ways of writing something so that it's effective, memorable, and sudden - alliteration, for example, or repeated structural forms.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
16:06 / 02.06.08
The concept of 'language-painting' as a means to 'change the thought-styles and cognitive methodologies through which we filter empirical experiences' (Albert Most, above) reminded me of the following, from the Zen patriarch Dogen's Sansui Gyo

Nowadays in great Sung China there is a certain group of unreliable fellows who have now formed such a crowd that they cannot be defeated by a small group of real people. They say that this talk of the East Mountain moving over the water, and such stories as Master Nansen's Sickle (i.e Zen koans), are stories which cannot be understood rationally. Their idea is as follows: "A story that is dependent on any kind of thoughtful (i.e rational) consideration cannot be a Zen story of the Buddhist patriarchs. But stories that cannot be understood rationally are indeed the Buddhist patriarchs'
stories. This is why such things as Master Obaku's use of the staff and Master Rinzai's cry of katsu, which are beyond rational understanding and unrelated to intellectual consideration, represent the great enlightenment [that existed] even before the sprouting of creation. The reason that many of the teaching methods of past masters employed words that cut through confusion was that [their teachings] were beyond rational understanding." Those who say such things have never met a true master and they have no eyes of real Buddhist study; they are just little pups who do not deserve to be discussed. For the last two or three hundred years in China there have been many such demons, many such shavelings like the band of six. It is so pitiful that the great truth of the Buddhist Patriarch has gone to ruin. Their understanding cannot even match that of the sravaka in Hinayana Buddhism; they are even more stupid than non-Buddhists. They are not laymen, they are not monks, they are not human beings, and they are not gods in heaven; they are more stupid than animals that study Buddhism. What these shavelings call incomprehensible
stories are incomprehensible only to them; the Buddhist patriarchs were not like that. We should not fail to study the concrete path by which the Buddhist patriarchs understand, just because [the path] is not understandable to those [shavelings]. If [the stories] were ultimately beyond rational understanding, their own reasoning now must also be wide of the mark.’
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:24 / 02.06.08
The point of that story being, presumably, that people who promote Buddhism as something that you can't understand, and 'not-understanding' as some sort of admirable goal, and who promote texts as impossible to understand with this impossibility being 'good', are wrong (or 'less than human beings'): that, actually, you can understand the stories, and understanding is good, and Buddhism is all about understanding?

Or is it the old classic 'you're only criticising me because I'm too far out for you!' ('it is not that the stories are hard to understand, but that the unreliable fellows are stupid'), which we all remember from circa 14 years of age? That's a bit more tricky, because it may be true in many instances, but it's often also used to defend bullshit by power. E.G. Women can't do this job! What do you mean, why not? I don't have to listen to your arguments, you're only complaining about it because you don't understand!
 
 
Albert Most
15:21 / 03.06.08
Sometimes figuring out the best way to state something is like learning how to walk - it takes a lot of stumbling and missteps before you get it right. The ideas can exist prior to the language used to express them, and in GOOD theory (ie, not just psuedo intellectual bullsh*t) a lot of what's being said are ideas which don't get talked about commonly, meaning there are no familiar expressions and phrases to fall back upon. Nowadays, it makes perfect sense to say things like "send me an email with the link and i'll google it to see what i can find" - but if we were hearing that string of words for the first time it would sound like gibberish. We need to grow into modes of expression - the development of linguistic meaning is largely a rote process. Terms like 'superego' and 'paradigm' are easy for most educated people to digest - it doesn't require a whole lot of effort to place them in a clear communicative context because the concepts which underly them are familiar and pre-established - BUT that WASN'T always the case, and it's worth keeping in mind that there was a time when such (now) perfectly sensical expressions would have sounded just as impenetrable and obscurantist as the language used by many of the contemporary theorists here being criticized.

Again, that's not to try and justify the deliberate obfuscation for style's sake that characterizes a lot of academic writing - but, if we're being fair-minded about it, all any of this really shows is that some writers have good ideas to write about, while other writers are just hacks . . . hardly a phenomenon exclusive to the realm of academic theory.
 
 
Dusto
23:38 / 04.06.08
Sometimes figuring out the best way to state something is like learning how to walk - it takes a lot of stumbling and missteps before you get it right.

One of my problems, though, is that when it comes to literature, at least, people tend to disregard the fact that these theoretical terms were missteps. You still get people writing about base and superstructure, or proletariat and bourgeousie, even though the sane academic world has left these simplistic concepts behind.

The ideas can exist prior to the language used to express them

Foucault might disagree with you.

and in GOOD theory (ie, not just psuedo intellectual bullsh*t) a lot of what's being said are ideas which don't get talked about commonly, meaning there are no familiar expressions and phrases to fall back upon.

But even Judith Butler, in her New York Times rebuttal to the Bad Writing Award, speaks of the ability to translate. If something can be said in terms comprehensible to the average man, why shouldn't it be? And if it can't be said in those terms, why should it be said at all?

Nowadays, it makes perfect sense to say things like "send me an email with the link and i'll google it to see what i can find" - but if we were hearing that string of words for the first time it would sound like gibberish. We need to grow into modes of expression - the development of linguistic meaning is largely a rote process.

Those terms all refer to something concrete, and they're NEW words used to describe something new. With cultural studies, at least, you get lots of words that already mean something (hegemony, ideology, subaltern) that are being given new, confusingly related meanings. And in the case of "subaltern," which was likely just a codeword for proletariat in the first place, the meaning is doubly obfuscated. We're not in the realm of particle physics, here. What we're describing can be spoken of plainly, but it makes us seem smart if we use a specialist vocabulary.

There's certainly a place for new language used to describe new concepts. But too often in theory it becomes dead language used to describe concepts that could be described in simple language. And in the few cases when new language is legitimately used, there's often a failure to clearly translate. At least in my opinion.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:15 / 05.06.08
Can somebody show me on the doll where Marxist theory is intended to be populist? Because, after the idea that Judith Butler could have used a bit of alliteration, that's the most interesting statement that's emerged from this so far.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:08 / 05.06.08
You still get people writing about... proletariat and bourgeousie, even though the sane academic world has left these simplistic concepts behind.

Then fuck the "sane academic world".
 
 
Dusto
12:33 / 05.06.08
Poor word choice. When I say "sane academic world," I mean the majority of academics, who've moved beyond what Fredric Jameson calls "the vulgar Marxist theory of levels." Most Marxists have, but you still get a surprising number of people who ignore what's been written (or translated) in the past 30 years and instead use Marx's original terminology unproblematically.

Possibly poor word choice on the populist remark, as well. I mean that the goal of Marx's own theory, at least, is to empower the common man (worker). So it seems strange, to me, when Marxist theorists write in a language that alienates the common man.
 
 
Albert Most
12:43 / 05.06.08
"One of my problems, though, is that when it comes to literature, at least, people tend to disregard the fact that these theoretical terms were missteps. You still get people writing about base and superstructure, or proletariat and bourgeousie, even though the sane academic world has left these simplistic concepts behind."

Well, we can complain about specific instances of usage and debate wether or not certain terms are appropriate or outmoded or whathaveyou - but that's not the same thing as making a blanket condemnation of anyone who writes in ways that are difficult or challenging - mainly, i have in mind people like Lyotard, Derrida, Lacan, and not the ubiquitous Marxist hacks that have always, for the past century, polluted the academic genepool (and who will almost certainly continue to do so for the forseeable future)


"The ideas can exist prior to the language used to express them

Foucault might disagree with you."

Then Foucoult would be wrong, but i suspect, from what i know of him, that we could both restate and reframe our opinions on the matter using different language in such a way as to make the ideas underlying those opinions appear more mutually amenable.

"But even Judith Butler, in her New York Times rebuttal to the Bad Writing Award, speaks of the ability to translate. If something can be said in terms comprehensible to the average man, why shouldn't it be?"

Generally speaking, if it can, it should be, i agree - but what the "common man" finds comprehensible should not define the limits of human thought - NOR, for that matter, should it be used to set boundaries against where we are permitted to go with the use of language. What about poetry? What about the paragraph length sentences of Marcel Proust? These are often expressions of great depth and beauty that require multiple rereadings and considerable effort to digest, but it would be foolish to dismiss their value offhand simply because, in the hands of lesser writers, those same techniques produce garbage. You have to, as i've said, take the good with the bad.

"And if it can't be said in those terms, why should it be said at all?"

because to limit what we can say to that which is comprehensible to the "common man" would be to limit what we can say to expressions of what has already become mundane, mediocre and commonplace. We would only be able to frame what we know in the same old familiar ways, and could never take a new or fresh perspective on anything without forcing our statements about it into pre-established parlance - and that is pointlessly limiting. To redescribe the familiar in new ways is to look at it from a different angle, and that can often be a very illuminating and revealing way of approaching the world - simply because some guy at the toothpaste factory has trouble adjusting to a new point of view shouldn't automatically place it off-limits.

"We're not in the realm of particle physics, here. What we're describing can be spoken of plainly, but it makes us seem smart if we use a specialist vocabulary."

What makes particle physics special in ways that allow it to be incomprehensible without reproach? String theory, for all it's elaborate and befuddling intricacies, turned out to be largely bunk, after all. Does that mean that all those physicists who examined the possibilities of that theory were just trying to SOUND smart?

"There's certainly a place for new language used to describe new concepts. But too often in theory it becomes dead language used to describe concepts that could be described in simple language. And in the few cases when new language is legitimately used, there's often a failure to clearly translate. At least in my opinion."

Sure, this is true. But no one said the evolution of thought was a perfectly efficient process - we're all only human. Sometimes things just don't translate well - it's a fact of communication - stumblings and missteps, after all.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:03 / 05.06.08
Does that mean that all those physicists who examined the possibilities of [string] theory were just trying to SOUND smart?


There are quite a few people who would argue that roughly, yes, this has been the case.

As an lamentably ignorant but interested outsider I find the discussion intriguing but also largely unsatisfying due to the lack of specifics. I'd certainly find it better if posters could try to do more than simply assert that things are too complicated, overly simplistic, or unnecessarily reliant on technical language etc. I think that Nussbaum's criticisms of Butler are good in this regard, without having a firm opinion on the merits of the criticisms, since it seems to come from someone who is at least engaging with the material.
 
 
Dusto
13:33 / 05.06.08
Albert, you make some good points. My problem is not with theory in general, or even the use of new language to describe new concepts. I just think that the majority of jargon used in critical theory is unnecessary and deadening. I don't include Lyotard or Derrida in this category. I do think Lacan is a bit denser than he needs to be, and I don't think his diagrams make much sense. Perhaps this is reader failure on my part, though.
 
 
Albert Most
18:12 / 05.06.08
Lurid:

"Does that mean that all those physicists who examined the possibilities of [string] theory were just trying to SOUND smart?

- There are quite a few people who would argue that roughly, yes, this has been the case."

Hm. Well, i tend to give people the benefit of the doubt - especially when they're dealing in things like theoretical physics - i'm sure many of them have a sincere desire to advance human understanding, though there was no doubt some philistine-ism going on as well. In any case, it seems to me physics is further along for having confronted and debunked the theory than it would have been if the theory had never been developed in the first place.

"As an lamentably ignorant but interested outsider I find the discussion intriguing but also largely unsatisfying due to the lack of specifics."

For specifics on the type of thing I'M discussing, open any book by the writers i mentioned (i'd quote some passages from my own library, but i'm at work) . . .
 
 
Albert Most
18:56 / 05.06.08
Dusto:

"I just think that the majority of jargon used in critical theory is unnecessary and deadening."

I suppose i won't argue. What I will say is that sometimes you really need to put in the effort before it can become clear exactly why words are being used the way they are in some critical theory. Sometimes there's important nuance that it's easy to miss if you allow yourself to be immediately put off by the vernacular (which is, admittedly, all too often overblown and unecessarily complex)

"I do think Lacan is a bit denser than he needs to be, and I don't think his diagrams make much sense. Perhaps this is reader failure on my part, though."

No, it's not entirely reader failure, Lacan is probably the epitome of obfuscatory writing style. Shortcomings in English translations notwithstanding, he does frequently slip into the realm of total unintelligability - and i've never been able to decipher his diagrams either. But underneath all the dense prose there are some truly complex, elegant, brilliant, and challenging ideas that are well worth the effort (if youre so inclined), and which, it's fair to say, could not necessarily be relayed in readily accessible ways using pre-existing parlance. It will probably take a couple generations of commentary and scholarship to really distill many of the Lacanian concepts into some sort of standardized lexicon that's readily and easily accessible to everyone - and even then, probably not without a fair amount of distortions and compromises. Writers like Zizek and Bruce Fink have started to make some effective strides in that direction though. If you have an interest in the Lacanian theories themselves, then those two are worth looking into (if you haven't already).
 
  

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