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Theoretical Language

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
clever sobriquet
19:23 / 31.07.08
Dusto: my understanding of Butler's meaning in "power relations are subject to repetition, convergence, and rearticulation" is a Foucaultian definition of power, in which context "repition, convergence and rearticulation" make sense; that's basically a paraphrase of one of the major points in "Discipline and Punish".

Again, to invoke what Haus has said previously, it isn't necessarily obtuse or impenetrable if one is familiar with the ongoing cultural, theoretical and philosophical conversations of which Butler (for this example) is a part. For better or for worse, (post 1968, to my eyes) writing in these fields has become highly implicitly referential. I don't think this is unique to theory, however, but it seems to be called out more in this arena than any other of which I am aware.
 
 
Dusto
20:20 / 31.07.08
I haven't read the Butler in full, so perhaps she makes her meaning more clear in the larger context, but I actually have read (and enjoyed) Discipline and Punish, and from the short passage of Butler quoted here I missed that echo completely. That probably also has something to do with the fact that I read the Foucault so long ago and don't recall how his translator used the terms repetition, convergence, and rearticulation. So, reader failure in this instance. Though one of the things that bugs me about the language of theory in general is when common words are assigned new meanings. Even if I were more familiar with Foucault's use of the term, upon seeing the term "repetition," even in a piece of theory, my first instinct would not necessarily be to recall his definition.
 
 
Dusto
21:14 / 31.07.08
Also, again, to reiterate my own shortcomings in this area: I'm much more interested in theorists when they're actually saying something about literature (Roland Barthes in S/Z, for instance, or Mikhail Bakhtin in the Dialogic Imagination) than I am in theorists when they're speculating about the nature of ideology and such. "Theory" is a broad term, though, with a lot of disparate things lumped beneath its umbrella, and obviously only a small fraction of theory has anything to do with literature. Which isn't the fault of theorists who have no interest in literature. This is mostly just a long-winded way of saying that I tend to have less patience with non-literary theory than I do with literary theory. But I do think this predisposition on my part has some basis in the fact that--with regard to literary theory--the subject tends to be something more concrete and requires less in the way of redefining ordinary words and such than with regard to more broadly based cultural theory. So, for instance, I liked Foucault because he tended to be very concrete, using historical examples and hard evidence to make a case about something more abstract. From what I've read of Judith Butler, she tends to start with the abstract and make it more abstract.

Sorry for the poor writing in this post, by the way, as I only have a few minutes to type right now.
 
 
HCE
23:40 / 31.07.08
As far as personal preference goes, frankly I too prefer concrete or specific examples, and I don't consider it a shortcoming to have that preference. Barthes and Bakhtin are great (coincidentally, I'm reading S/Z right now, so I'm quite enthused), but not everybody has to be them.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:22 / 01.08.08
BRB:

"The move from (A) to (B) brought (C) into (D), and marked a shift from (E) to (F)."

Well, I have to say I don't see how that sentence could be broken up in a way that would help you ...


As Dusto says: The problem with your simplification is that A, B, C, D, E and F aren't simple preexisting concepts that anyone with the right background will get: those are the places where she is writing poorly.

I also don't think it's as simple as an easily defined A, B, C, etc, though if it were, it would of course be pretty ridiculous to complain in the way I have. C, The question of temporality, for example, isn't a simple, unambiguous term, and neither is a view of hegemony in which power relations are subject to repetition, convergence, and rearticulation.

If we were going to break the sentence down into what I see as its constituent terms, I think it would look more like this (with your alphabetical division followed by the number of big terms that I see each of your letters as consisting of in 'i,ii,' etc format):

The move from (A (i,ii,iii,iv)) to (B (i,ii,iii,iv,v)) brought (C (i)) into (D (i,ii,)), and marked a shift from (E(i,ii,iii)) to (F(i,ii,iii,iv,v,vi,vii)).

And again, that it is this much more complicated doesn't neccesarily make it worse or flawed - indeed I'm pretty sure the number of big terms wouldn't really be a problem at all if she actually told us by whom, where and when these ideas were being had or challenged or changed.

If there's a good reason for her not to do this, or a reason why it doesn't matter, then I'll happily hear it, but given that she's talking about ideology and politics, and that these things affect real people, I'd like to see some evidence that someone actually has said this or that. For the same reason, if somebody was to come here and say:

"The move from rationalism to political correctness brought white guilt into the conception of ..."

... I'd want to know, not just what they meant by these terms, but far more importantly, among whom they are supposed to operative. And indeed my earlier statements about 'Theorists' doing this or that were met with 'Which theorists?'
 
 
HCE
22:48 / 01.08.08
As Dusto says: The problem with your simplification is that A, B, C, D, E and F aren't simple preexisting concepts that anyone with the right background will get: those are the places where she is writing poorly.


There are a few problems here:

1. The assumption that the concepts in A, B, C, should be simple. Based on my admittedly scant knowledge of power, psychology, capital, and culture (for example), none of them is simple or works in simple ways. Why would she just string together a series of simple, pre-existing concepts?

2. The assumption that 'anyone' with the right background can get the references. This is not true of anything, I don't think. There is a spectrum of depth of comprehension and people fall on different parts of it, depending on their personal learning styles and familiarity with the material. Some people get some of the ideas some of the time. It's not as though there's some specific set curriculum that will yield perfect understanding, and you can plug any reader into it.

3. The implicit suggestion that good writing is that which deals with simple, pre-existing concepts, that anyone with the right background can get. Thomas Bernhard's writing isn't simple, Proust's writing isn't simple -- frankly I can pull a few sentences out of Barthes that are rather headscratchy. Does this make them 'bad' writers? However, we probably need a whole other thread to deal with 'What makes good writing good, and how can you tell?'

Unless our fellow posters are speaking in terribly bad faith, they seem to be able to read Butler, so is it not a little more likely that if we don't get it, it's because we don't know what she's talking about, rather than because she phrased it poorly?

To come at it from another angle, could you or Dusto or whoever it is who gets all the references and thinks the problem is just bad writing try rephrasing either the whole sentence or some portion of it, and we can try it out on the dog? I'm pretty average, I'll be the dog.
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:14 / 01.08.08
Is the 'reason why it doesn't matter' in this case, that she's not mounting a major argument with this individual sentence? It's a quick gloss of a movement in academic Marxism, and I think most people in her intended audience can grasp that pretty easily. I don't think this bears much on the general question (is theoretical language overcomplicated?), but I mean, you can unpack the sentence to death, but it has some kind of context.
 
 
Dusto
23:34 / 01.08.08
There are a few problems here:

1. The assumption that the concepts in A, B, C, should be simple. Based on my admittedly scant knowledge of power, psychology, capital, and culture (for example), none of them is simple or works in simple ways. Why would she just string together a series of simple, pre-existing concepts?


I'm not saying it needs to be simple. I'm saying that substituting a single letter for something like "a view of hegemony in which power relations are subject to repetition, convergence, and rearticulation" is a gross over-simplification. That is, I'm saying it's not as simple as your substitutions make it out to be.

2. The assumption that 'anyone' with the right background can get the references. This is not true of anything, I don't think. There is a spectrum of depth of comprehension and people fall on different parts of it, depending on their personal learning styles and familiarity with the material. Some people get some of the ideas some of the time. It's not as though there's some specific set curriculum that will yield perfect understanding, and you can plug any reader into it.

All I meant was that this is not a case where the obscurity of meaning is caused primarily by obscurity of reference. Obscurity of syntax and obscurity of literal meaning are the real problems here.

3. The implicit suggestion that good writing is that which deals with simple, pre-existing concepts, that anyone with the right background can get. Thomas Bernhard's writing isn't simple, Proust's writing isn't simple -- frankly I can pull a few sentences out of Barthes that are rather headscratchy. Does this make them 'bad' writers? However, we probably need a whole other thread to deal with 'What makes good writing good, and how can you tell?'

I didn't mean what you thought I meant in problems 1 and 2, so 3 isn't really an issue. As I said earlier, there's a place for obscurity in writing, particularly in primary texts (such as Proust). However, I believe that secondary texts are more useful when they are relatively clear.

More on the rest of your post later.
 
 
Dusto
00:54 / 02.08.08
Unless our fellow posters are speaking in terribly bad faith, they seem to be able to read Butler, so is it not a little more likely that if we don't get it, it's because we don't know what she's talking about, rather than because she phrased it poorly?

To come at it from another angle, could you or Dusto or whoever it is who gets all the references and thinks the problem is just bad writing try rephrasing either the whole sentence or some portion of it, and we can try it out on the dog? I'm pretty average, I'll be the dog.


I'm not saying that I'm Butler's ideal reader, though I do have some background that might help me understand her writing more than the average reader. I am saying that, even if I had read everything she's read, I'd still have a problem with her writing, since I still see no problem with my two provisional criteria that:

1. Good writing is as syntactically clear as possible.
2. Good writing is as semantically clear as possible.

And Butler's writing is neither. Nussbaum's rephrasing of Butler does a good job of showing how she fail's to meet the first criterion. And with regard to the second, though I may need to review my Foucault, I still think that "a view of hegemony in which power relations are subject to repetition, convergence, and rearticulation" is murky at best in terms of literal meaning. If she is referring to specific concepts articulated elsewhere by earlier theorists, she doesn't do a great job of signalling the fact, which is a problem when the terms involved have otherwise ordinary meanings. The only clue that she might be talking about something else is the fact that the semantic value of the sentence isn't very clear when these ordinary meanings are used.

For ease of reference, the Nussbaum rephrasing:

"Marxist accounts, focusing on capital as the central force structuring social relations, depicted the operations of that force as everywhere uniform. By contrast, Althusserian accounts, focusing on power, see the operations of that force as variegated and as shifting over time."
 
 
clever sobriquet
19:29 / 03.08.08
Dusto:

I still see no problem with my two provisional criteria that:

1. Good writing is as syntactically clear as possible.
2. Good writing is as semantically clear as possible.


I think this is the crux of the problem; syntactically and semantically clear to whom? If something is not effortlessly clear to me upon first reading, my response is not to assume the problem must therefore be with the writer. As a reader, I expect to do work with any given text. If it asks nothing of me, I expect to get nothing out of it.
 
 
Dusto
23:39 / 03.08.08
I expect to need to work at understanding the concepts of a good secondary text, but I don't expect to need to work at deciphering the literal meaning of a sentence. What I mean by "as semantically clear as possible" would involve, say, being clear about what definition you're giving to possibly ambiguous terms, or clarifying your own understanding of an abstract concept such as "ideology" rather than taking it as a given that everyone understands the term the same way you do. Syntactic clarity is more complex, but Strunk & White, for instance, offer some pretty decent guidelines (avoid unnecessary repetition, avoid complex sentences with ambiguous pronouns, etc.). Not that Strunk & Whote are perfect, but Judith Butler could profit from adhering to their guidelines.
 
 
clever sobriquet
14:40 / 04.08.08
I suspect another differentiator is that of "secondary text". I don't look at critical theory as exclusively secondary, wholly in service to another, ostensibly primary, text, but rather as a text about ideas, aesthetics, language, with possibly another text or texts as a jumping off point. From my perspective, there seems to be a degree of subordination you expect of a secondary text; would I be correct in assuming that you would expect a good secondary text to be accessible to a competent reader of the primary text?

Another point I wish to make is that, for me, the style is often a part of the message; how a piece is written, how it encourages me to read, changes the way I think about it, even possibly shades meaning. If everything were written in a "clear", "simple" style, I'd become increasingly frustrated with the lack of available perspectives, and would, I suspect, become a lazier, more impoverished reader.
 
 
HCE
15:09 / 04.08.08
I suppose the bad news is that Nussbaum (whose rephrasing is described here as "bowdlerised") doesn't help me at all -- do I not need to read up on structuralism? I got the sense from Butler's sentence that it might be a useful thing to have in the bank.

However, perhaps we can break out Butler's sentence into a new thread; I have some bits of Joyce and Leiris I'm struggling with and could use a bit of help. I might start it myself.

It seems that we keep coming around to the same point: the people who get it don't think the "language of theory" is more complicated than it should be, they think it's got approximately the right amount of complication, or complexity, perhaps.

The people who don't get it either think the problem is that theorists are lousy writers, or think the problem is that they need to study more.

Leaving aside the people who have no problem with the text, for a moment, how can the rest of us tell which problem we're dealing with? Some possibilities:

1. If I can see what the writer is trying to say, and could rephrase it more clearly myself, the problem is probably that the writer did a bad job, and I don't need to study more.

2. I can check to see if the writer has written about the same thing, elsewhere, and used different and possibly clearer phrasing. While this may reveal another, better option, a) it counts as studying, and b) if successful, it yields an example of good writing.

3. I can ask somebody who does get it and see what I think of that person's opinion.

4. I can study more and try #1 again, later. It may turn out to have been the case all along.

(Incidentally, Strunk & White are not universally popular.)
 
 
Dusto
19:20 / 04.08.08
I suspect another differentiator is that of "secondary text". I don't look at critical theory as exclusively secondary, wholly in service to another, ostensibly primary, text, but rather as a text about ideas, aesthetics, language, with possibly another text or texts as a jumping off point. From my perspective, there seems to be a degree of subordination you expect of a secondary text; would I be correct in assuming that you would expect a good secondary text to be accessible to a competent reader of the primary text?

Before debating any further, let me just say that I appreciate all of the thoughtful responses. It's helping me to clarify my own feelings on the subject.

"Secondary text," I suppose, may not be the precise term I'm looking for. The way I'm dividing it, a primary text (e.g. a novel or a poem) is chiefly about itself, so that Lolita, for instance, is not chiefly about the nominal subject of an adult man's passion for a young girl, it's about the aesthetic experience that Nabokov crafts. A secondary text (e.g. a work of theory or criticism), on the other hand, is chiefly about something other than itself. Yet I don't mean this as narrowly as you might be taking it (and as the term itself might suggest, hence the need for a better term). I'm not trying to suggest that a secondary text necessarily have some one to one correlation with a given primary text. In the sense I mean it, Roland Barthes's S/Z, for instance, as a secondary text, is not chiefly about the nominal subject of Balzac's story "Sarrasine," nor is it chiefly about the aesthetic experience of reading Barthes, but rather it's chiefly about the codes by which we create meaning in a text.

So in this sense, I'm with you that I look to works of theory as texts "about ideas, aesthetics, language, with possibly another text or texts as a jumping off point." I do think that the further a theorist strays from concrete "jumping off points," the more likely abstract language will become necessary, but I don't see this as an excuse for obscurity. Rather the opposite, I'd say the more abstract one's subject, the greater the need to keep everything else concrete and clear. Also, the more complex the idea, the greater the need for simplicity of style. It seems to me that many theorists think differently than I do on this subject. Deleuze and Guattari, for instance. I have a love/hate relationship with their books, in that I enjoy them in much the same aesthetic sense that I might enjoy a Robert Anton Wilson novel. I know that the experience of reading it is part of their "message," but I still think that their ideas would be better served by a clearer, simpler writing style. So I suppose I also know what you mean when you write:

Another point I wish to make is that, for me, the style is often a part of the message; how a piece is written, how it encourages me to read, changes the way I think about it, even possibly shades meaning. If everything were written in a "clear", "simple" style, I'd become increasingly frustrated with the lack of available perspectives, and would, I suspect, become a lazier, more impoverished reader.

But as a reader, myself, I'm generally content to get my fill of complex stylings from novelists, and in theorists I tend to value a more transparent style. Also, Deleuze and Guattari can get away with obscurity, but so many second-rate academic writers try to cover up intellectual shallowness by carefully obscuring what they're saying that it's soured me on the experience of giving theorists the benefit of the doubt. So back to the question first posed by this thread, I think that the language of theory tends (quantitatively speaking) to be over-complicated, trying to dress up simple thoughts in complex language. There is also some good theory out there that is written in a complicated way. At least partially because of the fact that so much theory is over-complicated, though (as well as for the other reasons listed above), I personally tend to value theory that strives for clarity.
 
 
Dusto
19:35 / 04.08.08
I suppose the bad news is that Nussbaum (whose rephrasing is described here as "bowdlerised") doesn't help me at all -- do I not need to read up on structuralism? I got the sense from Butler's sentence that it might be a useful thing to have in the bank.

The poster who called it bowdlerized also failed to elucidate when I asked what the Nussbaum rephrasing gets wrong. I think I understand the Butler quote (though her poor writing leaves me unable to know for sure), and as far as I can see the only thing Nussbaum might be missing is that Althusser's conception itself changed over time.

However, perhaps we can break out Butler's sentence into a new thread; I have some bits of Joyce and Leiris I'm struggling with and could use a bit of help. I might start it myself.

Sounds good.

It seems that we keep coming around to the same point: the people who get it don't think the "language of theory" is more complicated than it should be, they think it's got approximately the right amount of complication, or complexity, perhaps.

The people who don't get it either think the problem is that theorists are lousy writers, or think the problem is that they need to study more.


I wouldn't necessarily agree with that appraisal. I think I "get" Butler to the degree I've read her (not much), and I think "get" Althusser and Adorno. But I also think they're more complicated than they need to be.

Leaving aside the people who have no problem with the text, for a moment, how can the rest of us tell which problem we're dealing with? Some possibilities:

1. If I can see what the writer is trying to say, and could rephrase it more clearly myself, the problem is probably that the writer did a bad job, and I don't need to study more.


I'd agree with that.

2. I can check to see if the writer has written about the same thing, elsewhere, and used different and possibly clearer phrasing. While this may reveal another, better option, a) it counts as studying, and b) if successful, it yields an example of good writing.

And that.

3. I can ask somebody who does get it and see what I think of that person's opinion.

I'd add that if the other person can explain it clearly, that marks the text being explained as "poor writing," though.

4. I can study more and try #1 again, later. It may turn out to have been the case all along.

This definitely can be the case, but (though this is unquantifiable) I feel as if I have a good sense of when further study is necessary and when there's no point.

I'd also add that bad writing isn't necessarily hard to understand. Something can be phrased in complex syntax with sophisticated jargon and still have a readily apparent meaning (or meaninglessness). This is the sort of bad writing I see most often, in fact. Attempts to dress up simple thoughts in complex language.
 
 
Dusto
19:43 / 04.08.08
Regarding Strunk & white, as I said, they're not perfect. They definitely have some arbitrary rules, such as "Never use a latinate word when a Germanic one will do" (or something to that effect). However, I think their guidelines are decent as guidelines go. And the bit about adjectives in the link you provide is taken out of context. The full passage is as follows:

Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs. The adjective hasn't been built that can pull a weak or inaccurate noun out of a tight place. This is not to disparage adjectives and adverbs; they are indispensable parts of speech. Occasionally they surprise us with their power, as in

Up the airy mountain
Down the rushy glen,
We daren't go a-hunting
For fear of little men...

The nouns mountain and glen are accurate enough, but had the mountain not become airy, the glen rushy, William Allingham might never have got off the ground with his poem. In general, however, it is nouns and verbs, not their assistants, that give to good writing its toughness and color.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:13 / 04.08.08
I believe that Stephen King speaks very highly of Strunk and White, and I imagine that if one wishes to write like Stephen King, Strunk and White are a very good place to start. However, I think we can take it as read that Butler, Deleuze and Guattari were united in a desire not to write like Stephen King, or at least in not a desire to write like Stephen King. Again, I see this as something akin to horses for courses. You are unhappy with theorists who do not write very clearly and very simply, as I imagine I might be were I engaged in academic study in English literature; I've never had that pleasure. You are prepared to let writers whom you understand to be novelists get away with things that you do not tolerate in writers whom you understand to be theorists, in part for reasons of jouissance and in part due to a distinction between primary sources (which broadly follows the historical usage, and means something like "a product of a writer writing that writer's writing") and secondary sources (which broadly follows the historical usage, and means something like "a product of a writer writing about another writer's writing"). In a sense, this is an artisanal distinction between the creative and the mechanic - those who are writing guidebooks should not be making their guidebook a thing of bewildering and intricate beauty, but rather should be explaining how to navigate around a thing of bewildering etc. Things get a bit confused when the writing is not about another writer's writing (Peggy Phelan on the Rose Theatre, for example, is recognisably theory but is not literary theory), but the basic model is there.

That's a perfectly workable model, but it doesn't get us much further in what is good and what bad theory except by the standard of what a single judge feels is more or less or as complex as is necessary.

(On Strunk and White, that passage highlights one problem with it - that it tends to miss the blindingly obvious. Had the mountain not been airy and the mountain rushy, the opening quatrain would not have been in elegiac couplets. I'm not saying that up the wimbly mountain and down the wobbly glen would be exactly the same effect, but rhythm is the key here. Which is one reason, I think, why nobody ever quotes "The Faeries" beyond the first quatrain.)
 
 
Dusto
22:53 / 04.08.08
Regarding Strunk, White, and King (as well as my own [arbitrary?] distinction between novelists and theorists): I don't think any novelist should worry with Strunk and White. Also, fwiw, of King's work I've only read the Dark Tower series, but I don't think he adheres to Strunk & White's guidelines very closely, despite what he may have said elsewhere.

Regarding where this gets us in terms of deciding what is or isn't good theory, I'd say you're largely right. Apart from personal preference of the reader, there's no reason that the language of theory shouldn't be complicated. That is, it can be complicated to a purpose. However (and I'm breaking one of Strunk & White's rules by beginning a sentence this way), I do think that quantitatively speaking theoretical writing tends to be over-complicated. That is, complicated language is more often used to mask simple thought than it is used to effect some enhanced response in the reader.
 
 
clever sobriquet
00:11 / 05.08.08
But, misuse of language certainly is not limited to theory. I've read more than my share of overly stilted, florid novels that just can't manage to hide a shocking lack of talent, just as I've read shallow theory hidden in clumsy, pseudo-old high German grammar. Writing can suck in any style.
 
 
Dusto
00:20 / 05.08.08
True, but I feel that it's become almost acceptable in theoretical writing. Florid writing in fiction gets decried as such. Florid writing in theory is defended with accusations of reader failure.
 
 
clever sobriquet
11:41 / 05.08.08
I'm not sure I'd agree with your last point, Dusto. Even a casual perusal of PMLA, for example, can show the glee that those engaged primarily with theory happily turn on their own when writing is perceived as substandard.
 
 
Dusto
12:00 / 05.08.08
In theoretical writing, you get big debates about it, as with Judith Butler and Homi Bhaba and the bad writing award. There are bad writing awards for fiction, too, but there the authors generally have a good sense of humor about it (I'm thinking of the award for worst sex scene that they give out each year; writers often show up to accept it) rather than trying to defend themselves. But your larger point is taken that there is bad writing in any area.
 
 
HCE
17:58 / 05.08.08
And if there's bad writing in every area, the next question I have is, why has theory been singled out? I have only a gut feeling about this - that it's anti-intellectualism - but gut feelings aren't worth much.
 
 
Dusto
19:58 / 05.08.08
I think theory is singled out because it's an area where bad writing gets held up as exemplary. To choose a fairly neutral example, Adorno is a bad writer who had some good ideas. Those who see the value of his ideas defend him against those who would tear him down because he's a bad writer (particularly since some of his ideas are about the value of being inaccessible). Which is fine, but it opens the door for bad writers who have bad ideas. Bad writing becomes something to hide behind when the bad ideas themselves are attacked: the "you just don't understand" defense. I'm not anti-intellectual; most people would probably think my taste in literature fairly snobby. I'm simply anti faux-intellectualism.
 
 
clever sobriquet
20:24 / 05.08.08
My take is that it's, in part, the devaluation of language and language studies by native speakers. Some of that is anti-intellectual, maybe, but I think it has to do with the failure or refusal of native speakers to see language as anything that requires work or effort, since it's something "everyone" does every day. This extends to the teaching of writing and grammar, I'd say, as well as anything having to do with books other than popular (I include the popular canon in this).

With regard to theory, I think it's not all theory, just particular kinds of it that fall under this sort of hyper-analysis and -criticism. I'm inclined to think that it's resistance to certain streams of analysis or style; it is rare to see the people who complain about Butler, for instance, to also complain about New Critics or Russian Formalists. Again, I suspect it has to do with the resistance to the effects of post-1968, French student protest inspired thought.
 
 
Dusto
21:00 / 05.08.08
My take is that it's, in part, the devaluation of language and language studies by native speakers. Some of that is anti-intellectual, maybe, but I think it has to do with the failure or refusal of native speakers to see language as anything that requires work or effort, since it's something "everyone" does every day. This extends to the teaching of writing and grammar, I'd say, as well as anything having to do with books other than popular (I include the popular canon in this).

I'm not so sure that I agree with all of this. That is, I don't think it's a "native speaker" thing, and it's not a failure to see language as something that should require work or effort, though it's often an expression of resentment about unnecessary levels of work or effort. But then most of the complaints I see about the language of theory come from other grad students, which might explain why they resent it even when they "get it."

With regard to theory, I think it's not all theory, just particular kinds of it that fall under this sort of hyper-analysis and -criticism. I'm inclined to think that it's resistance to certain streams of analysis or style; it is rare to see the people who complain about Butler, for instance, to also complain about New Critics or Russian Formalists. Again, I suspect it has to do with the resistance to the effects of post-1968, French student protest inspired thought.

See, I don't think it's the thought itself that people are resisting so much as the presentation of the thought. But you are right in narrowing the scope. In my experience, most bad writing in theory is found in people poorly imitating (or regurgitating) the writings of either the post-1968 French schools of thought or the Frankfurt School.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:07 / 05.08.08
I think that's almost exactly what clever soubriquet didn't say, though.
 
 
Dusto
00:20 / 06.08.08
I wasn't trying to rephrase what he said, I was offering my take on the same issue.
 
 
Dusto
00:56 / 06.08.08
That is, to clarify: I know he wasn't calling that stuff bad writing, he was saying it's where people have problems. I'm one of those people, though, so I called it bad writing.
 
 
clever sobriquet
02:29 / 06.08.08
Curious that you assume I'm a 'he'.
 
 
clever sobriquet
02:31 / 06.08.08
And yeah, what Haus said I didn't say.
 
 
HCE
15:22 / 06.08.08
[off-topic]

post-1968, French student protest inspired thought

Any suggestions for where I can read up on this a bit more? I'm ok with secondary sources.

I seemed to recall having a Gramsci book somewhere and found it last night (thanks for reminding me, Dusto) -- it's the Prison Notebooks and I'm finding it very enjoyable.
 
 
clever sobriquet
16:45 / 06.08.08
HCE, off the top of my head, I'd recommend a sampling of Derrida, Foucault, Zizek, Barthes (post Empire of Signs), Deleuze and Guattari, and maybe Cixous.
 
 
Dusto
18:36 / 06.08.08
Curious that you assume I'm a 'he'.

I actually considered keeping it gender-neutral but then decided it was worth the risk of being wrong in order to avoid the awkward sentence that would have otherwise resulted. I apologize if I've inadvertently offended you.
 
 
Dusto
18:38 / 06.08.08
And yeah, what Haus said I didn't say.

And as I said, "I didn't say that you said it."
 
  

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