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A possible future

 
  

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Olulabelle
08:42 / 13.01.08
I think an antidote to this is simply being part of a supportive community that is committed to helping you keep your practice sane, healthy, responsible and geared towards improving your life and making you happier and healthier - as opposed to destroying your life and making you sick and confused. I don't want this community aspect of barbelith temple to get lost on the new site, or for it to be closed to those starting out on a practice.

I am really glad to see that the idea is to have a new community, and not just to create a new board for discussing magic at a high level. I think having a sensitive area and general chat areas really helps towards creating a strong focused community and strengthens the magical discussion. One of the things I have most enjoyed about Barbelith is that I can converse about other sibjects with people who share my views about magic and that they automatically will understand the place I am coming from, much more so than perhaps someone who does not practice themselves.

I hardly know any people who have not come through some sort of link with Barbelith who know and understand what even being interested in the occult means. It's a valuable thing to be able to discuss other aspects of your life with fellow magic people and I would have hated for us to lose that.
 
 
grant
14:44 / 14.01.08
This isn't specifically relevant to this, but might inspire similarly creative solutions: xkcd requires original chat content.

Mechanically, that is.
 
 
*
15:02 / 14.01.08
Wow. I expected that to be hilarious, but it's hilarious and potentially useful.
 
 
grant
17:53 / 15.01.08
By the way, I just checked out the religious board I referred to upthread - it's Cross and Flame - and they've converted to a strange Drupal/phpbb3 hybrid.

Interesting integration between forums and user blogs going on there, and y'all might want to look over the organization & layout for things to do (and things to avoid). I like the way the large categories on the front page reveal sub-categories when clicked-on.
 
 
Ticker
13:36 / 16.01.08
heya so GL, Gyrus, and I are discussing the wonderful world of non profit orgs set ups.

I think we are going to just get a site up attached to actual people as a closed beta site for now with the intent of eventually going live as a property of a non profit.

My thinking on this revolves around a few things. The first is the perception of a website as a static manifesation of a community is not helpful. What is helpful is the idea of a community that decides to have an internet presence in a specific temporal and spatial manner using a current set of tools. Meaning right now it makes sense to use this ISP and this OS running these applications to provide the best online experience for our members knowing that we *will* evolve to take advantage of future improvements in those tools.

The second is making active ownership collective and easily passed on as so to avoid the absentee landlord syndrome as well as to promote invested group participation.

The third is legal accountability for the actions of the online community and associated resources. Better to have a non profit corporation as an entity able to deal with a variety of issues including copyright infringment, libel/slander, malicious server shennanigans, etc.

I suppose there is a fourth about responsibility for paying for it all and any associated fundraising.

I sent the gents this US link on non profits. I have no clue about UK non profits but I can say as an officer of a US non profit it certainly has made changing of the guard vastly easier.
 
 
*
14:58 / 16.01.08
What kind of non-profit with what kind of mission? How will Board Members (as opposed to board members) be elected? What kind of educational or charitable activities will the non-profit accomplish in order to be eligible for non-profit status, tax exemption, etc.? Where will the non-profit be based (what country's regulations will we need to follow)?

If I may be so bold: it's been my suspicion for awhile that the perception that pagans/occultists/whatever aren't to be taken seriously might be helpfully combated with an organized charitable effort that has a visible impact outside the community. But if our real goal is to have a neet message board, it sounds like the best hope for non-profity goodness is as an educational organization.

That's leaving aside becoming a recognized religious or spiritual organization, which has different issues that I'm less than familiar with.
 
 
*
14:59 / 16.01.08
It's just that currently it sounds like a non-profit in search of a mission, and it's my general thinking that it's a mistake to create a non-profit for the sake thereof, rather than to address a particular problem.
 
 
Ticker
16:20 / 16.01.08
What kind of non-profit with what kind of mission? How will Board Members (as opposed to board members) be elected? What kind of educational or charitable activities will the non-profit accomplish in order to be eligible for non-profit status, tax exemption, etc.? Where will the non-profit be based (what country's regulations will we need to follow)?

I was thinking of a 501(c)(3) with an educational interfaith mission. I belong to a couple of small orgs that are structured as non profits for educational community stuffs and they seem to work. One is just a US state recognised one and the other federal. One puts on an annual community parade with fund raisers and the other is a Fortean research org.

If it is set up in the US I believe the Board needs to have some members/officers in the state it is set up in. But besides that probably open elections to all members.

Not sure on the which country yet.

Activities would probably be the website and a journal(!). Perhaps with a goal of sponsoring/hosting actual IRL events.


If I may be so bold: it's been my suspicion for awhile that the perception that pagans/occultists/whatever aren't to be taken seriously might be helpfully combated with an organized charitable effort that has a visible impact outside the community. But if our real goal is to have a neet message board, it sounds like the best hope for non-profity goodness is as an educational organization.


I'm not sure the two have to be separate. I suspect we can use the board to organize charitable community action and to increase general smahts.

That's leaving aside becoming a recognized religious or spiritual organization, which has different issues that I'm less than familiar with.

We could look into it of course.


It's just that currently it sounds like a non-profit in search of a mission, and it's my general thinking that it's a mistake to create a non-profit for the sake thereof, rather than to address a particular problem.

Well I think we all have a sense that fostering intensive dialogue between individuals of various traditions will not only improve their practices but their interactions as a whole. Seems like theres a mission in there to me.

We could also create a for profit org too. I'm just thinking that's not really what anyone would want.
 
 
*
17:46 / 16.01.08
Okay, cool. Maybe we can look into partnering with some existing orgs as well.

BTW I have this dead site at arcanology.org that I'd originally planned to use do something like create a journal/semi-professional organization, years ago. Would love to see it do something useful, so I can feel okay about the $60/year I sink into it.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
10:43 / 17.01.08
In the UK, there some pagan NPOs that have become legal entities by becoming a Company Limited by Guarantee - effectively private companies that do not have shareholders or share capital. Members (guarantors) undertake to contribute should the company require it. Profits cannot be distributed and are generally reinvested back into the company. A CLG is legal entity in its own right, so that agreements and contracts can be taken out in the name of the company. See, as an example, The Children of Artemis website.

As far as I'm aware, no Pagan (etc.) organisations/npos in the UK at present have been granted charitable status. The Odinshof used to have charitable status but deregistered in the late nineties, although they managed to keep a land-buying trust going by becoming The Olgar Trust. The Pagan Federation have been applying for charity status for years, so far with out success although discussions are apparently ongoing, as they say. More about this on the Pebble website.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:46 / 17.01.08
Can we refrain from getting ahead of ourselves with this side of things? I think we should just focus on the immediate task of getting a working beta version of a discussion forum up and running, before we hatch any other plans.

For me, the only reason for setting up a company - not-for-profit or otherwise - is to collectivise the ownership of the proposed web forum so it isn't legally attached to one person's credit card and to avoid the absentee web landlord issues as much as possible.

I'm not averse to using this set-up to handle other similar projects, such as the temple journal, but I'm not really interested in evolving this into a "recognised religious or spiritual organisation" which campaigns for pagan's rights or organises charitable activities or whatever. I don't personally identify as a pagan, and don't particularly want to be involved with anything representing itself as a pagan organisation. I just don't have the time, energy or interest for that sort of project.

All I want to do is contribute to getting a really great occult discussion forum off the ground and into the world. I think its a good idea for this web entity to be legally attached to a company rather than an individual – but I'd rather we focused on just making the proposed website happen, and not get sidetracked by all the other ephemeral things that such a speculative company/organisation could conceivably do.
 
 
Ticker
13:10 / 17.01.08
GL, I understand your desire to redirect things back to the more immediate launch issue but I'm glad the discussion evolved as it did because:

that have become legal entities by becoming a Company Limited by Guarantee - effectively private companies that do not have shareholders or share capital. Members (guarantors) undertake to contribute should the company require it. Profits cannot be distributed and are generally reinvested back into the company.

I believe Trouser may have hit upon a winning solution for the immediate need set of a live public site not being attached to a person's credit card. It doesn't seem pagan specific to me at all or even particularly religious/spiritual.

I realize this may all seem to be castle in the cloud building but for me the important question of who is legally responsible for a publically accessible website is a first step.

If you would like to take on that personal responsibility for the new site I'm totally down with that option but it does retain the absentee landlord potential. Perhaps the best short term option is for Gyrus to host the beta closed site while we answer the question of who/what is responsible for the live public site?

I'm concerned that out of impatience to get the project underway it will end up permenantly attached to a busy person. Which would eventually lead back to access problems.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
13:23 / 17.01.08
More info on CLG's here and here

I definitely agree with you Gypsy, re: not getting too far ahead of ourselves. Let's concentrate on getting the board off the ground first - and if other people want to start running FTP servers, wikis, and starting up interfaith initiatives or whatever, all well and good.
 
 
Seth
02:03 / 26.01.08
How's this going?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:58 / 29.01.08
I've been subsumed in work stuff for the last week, but just emailed XK and Gyrus to catch up on where we're at. My perspective is that we should focus on getting a working beta version of this up-and-running on Gyrus's web space, and worry about setting up a company - not-for-profit or otherwise - once we actually have a viable discussion site up and running and want to open it up out of beta. I think we can hammer out the details about sustainable hosting and ownership at that stage, before we go live with it and start opening it up to people, and right now we should just focus on getting something solid and tangible off-the-ground.

Thoughts?
 
 
grant
14:07 / 29.01.08
That'd be my thought as well. Simply sharing server access -- having more than one person with the back-end password -- is a big important step, and one y'all seem to already have.
 
 
EvskiG
14:16 / 29.01.08
Agree that the critical thing is to have a site up and running. The rest can be hammered out later.
 
 
Katherine
06:32 / 30.01.08
I agree we need the beta model up and running, there are some great ideas here and now I think it is better to play test it with some real users and see what happens.
 
 
Ticker
19:29 / 05.02.08
I come from the land of beta test with good news!

Gyrus has a site up and going on Vanilla currently and himself, Gypsy, grant and I are doing the ground level deployment. This means we're taking the shrink wrap off and just getting an idea how to fly the thing.

Because Vanilla is a very customizable beastie, it will take a while before it's ready for true beta testers.

From the pool of people who have offered to help we will be asking folks to come on in one at a time. Please be patient with us as it is a learning process. Hopefully soon we will be able to have more people come try it.

Gyrus completely rawks and deserves massive applause for getting it up and going! YAY!
 
 
grant
21:17 / 05.02.08
It still smells a little like fresh plastic in there, and there's a slight pinch around my left big toe. But I think it'll work out in no time.

YAY!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:21 / 05.02.08
YAY!
 
 
*
22:11 / 05.02.08
Yay! I'm so reassured to hear that work is continuing. Please do consider me for the beta test list; I'd like to be involved insofar as I can.
 
 
EmberLeo
02:26 / 06.02.08
And also with the Yay!

--Ember--
 
 
electric monk
02:32 / 06.02.08
I just wanted to wish you luck.



We're all counting on you.
 
 
Ticker
12:44 / 06.02.08
Continue the Brainstorming! (please)


Please be continuing to talk in this thread about features, social engineering, and other concerns/requests you have for the new site. We are referring to the conversation here for insights as to what, the peoples, they be wanting.


Here be some examples:
(however, please feel free to discuss whatever you feel is important.)

1. Ficsuit renaming
Bonus Feature or Confusing?

2. Delete/Edit Posts
Should mods delete or edit and should this be enforced by the controls or at mods' discretion?

3. WYSIWYG or hand inputting html goodness?

This is also a great place to discuss the social engineering of how people join and begin participating in the new community. El Directo has some great fascinating ideas posted up thread if folks want to explore how they envision this Brave New World functioning in real time.

The more passion and brain power you put here the better the site over there will be. Eventually I suspect many of these topics will be moved to their very own Discussion threads in the new site so it probably best to keep them all wedged in here for now rather than crowd the Temple with them.
 
 
Cat Black (The Wizard's Hat)
15:16 / 06.02.08
Well, I'm just a lurker, but I'm going to chime in with my two American cents anyhow. First of all, I really enjoy reading the Temple forum. As a university student working in religious studies and depth psychology, I learn a lot from listening in on these discussions. In terms of my personal practice, I'm still very much a beginner and often feel that I don't have too much to add to the conversations that happen here.

I also understand why a lot of you want to move to a new space separate from Barbelith. The Temple is the only Barbelith forum that I read. The Temple also seems to have moved pretty far from its nineties Invisibles chaos magicky roots, and there seems to be a general feeling of malaise and stagnation hanging around here. In other words, the Temple discourse has evolved way beyond Barbelith and needs a new home with better feng shui. I support that.

I would love to be involved in the new forum eventually, if the folks in charge don't mind having a student-lurker type around. As someone with both academic and personal interests in magic, I really appreciate the depth and quality of the discussion that happens here. But it's my nature to read a hell of a lot more than I write.

All that said, I would like to weigh in on a few small matters related to the new forum:

1. Ficsuit renaming
Bonus Feature or Confusing?


Really confusing. Especially when I'm looking through old threads, and everyone is calling each other by names that are completely different from their current ones.

2. Delete/Edit Posts
Should mods delete or edit and should this be enforced by the controls or at mods' discretion?


Personally, I favor allowing the mods to do whatever the hell they want to, as long as there is some kind of accountability built in. Then again, the mods would need some guidelines as to how to handle things. In other words, as long as there are clear policies about what sort of content will be edited and deleted, and both mods and regular posters know the rules and etiquette and whatnot... give mods the tools they need to do their jobs. But also, there should be some way to argue with a mod's decision if posters feel it was inappropriate.

3. WYSIWYG or hand inputting html goodness?

Doesn't really matter to me, but I suspect most users would be happier with a WYSIWYG interface. You shouldn't have to learn HTML (not even a little bit, IMO) to format your posts correctly.

This is also a great place to discuss the social engineering of how people join and begin participating in the new community. El Directo has some great fascinating ideas posted up thread if folks want to explore how they envision this Brave New World functioning in real time.

I basically agree that you'd be best served by keeping the new forum invitation-only for a certain period of time, but I also hope that you eventually set up some kind of application process so that new blood can come in. You might want something a little more substantive than the current Barbelith process, which basically allows anyone with an e-mail address to get in. Maybe have people write a paragraph about their interest in and experience with magic?
 
 
EmberLeo
22:21 / 06.02.08
* Personally, I'd rather have at least some HTML than have BB code of any kind, or an interface. I perceive that it's far more reliable for me to be able to just type the tags around what I want, than to make buttons go that may or may not have loaded properly in any given browser, but I'm sort of minimalist that way when it comes to web design.

* I don't mind personalizeable sub-titles, but I want the main name to be consistent and obvious, such that it takes the effort of starting all over with a new account (which process may be discouraged by a screening process, etc.) to get a new name, or else giving the admins a damned good reason why your name should change.

* The Otherkin thread and Aspectarian threads reinforce my desire for different sections that make it more clear what kind of discussion is to be had, where there's a difference between processing, debating, or workshopping.
(e.g. We noted in the Aspectarian thread that debates as to whether Astrology was valid in general were not conducive to discussing the specifics of daily planetary aspects.) But some of that can be established thread by thread.

* I like the level of free vs. moderated editing the Temple currently allows - if you're quick and nobody has replied, you can fix your obvious typos and such, but no deleting, and no going back after a long argument to remove the evidence.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've said anything new here, have I? I'm just reiterating some of the reasons behind my existing preferences to make sure they're still on the radar. Oy.

--Ember--
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
00:53 / 07.02.08
3. WYSIWYG or hand inputting html goodness?

What about BBcode that just inputs HTML codes for the user, while still allowing those traditional HTML users to type code in manually. I believe LJ has a similar method to this.
 
 
EmberLeo
01:01 / 07.02.08
You mean buttons that insert HTML for you?

One of the boards I'm on has two alternatives for adding to a thread. "Quick Reply" which just pops open a box for you to write in, giving no helpful information or buttons as to how to format things, or "Full Reply", which opens another window entirely including all kinds of shiny interface buttons to insert the formatting codes for you.

I like that solution, because it makes the extra help available to anyone who needs it without it getting in the way of the folks who have been around long enough to learn the board code. I dislike it because I still have to use BB code instead of real HTML.

--Ember--
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
02:05 / 07.02.08
You mean buttons that insert HTML for you?

Yeah, exactly.
 
 
Cat Black (The Wizard's Hat)
03:16 / 07.02.08
Come to think of it, what really bothers me is when I type in HTML tags and they don't work because of the BB code.
 
 
godhole
17:36 / 13.02.08
I want to add another vote for ease of usefulness for folks who cannot code. ("BB" means other things in my world, so I have no idea if that is complexificatory or simplifying.) Stabilitas of usernames, too - it has been a real challenge for me to read back threads or keep up with current ones because of it, and that has led to less participation. And this is another yes vote for editing - by both poster and mods, as long as there does not seem to be passive agressive editing behavior (deleting posts from a thread when one gets pissy, for example).

While leaving behind the technical limitations of this forum, it would also be good to keep in mind that some folks who consider the topics deeply might be barely above the threshold as far as comfort and facility with the board mechanics itself.
 
 
Olulabelle
18:25 / 13.02.08
I think it's good to have some option to amend certain aspects of text, like being able to bold things, and I don't mind doing my own html because it's what I am used to, but I see that some people might not want to do that. I agree that buttons which do it for you could be a good solution.

Regarding ficsuit name changes, these are lovely and funny, but I do think having a 'previous' reference underneath is really helpful in keeping track of whom you're having a conversation with. It's sometimes really ace to change names regularly and I liked that function when we had it here.

I think not giving moderators the option to delete things is quite worrying because, despite all best intentions in how the board is set up and who is invited, someone might one day post something horrific. Not having the option to deal with that would be upsetting.

In a couple of places like LJ I've seen people express concern about whether what they post here is 'interesting' or 'intellectual' enough to be invited to join the new board. I am thinking of one person in particular who contributes loads of really great stuff to the board. I wonder if there's a way to make sure that people didn't get to start feeling like the new board would be a bit elite before it's even begun? I don't how to do this. I just thought it was important to register. I think there's a clear difference betweeen a quality board and an elite board, and I feel sure that what people are striving for here in planning this is quality, rather than exclusion. Perhaps one way to help some less confident posters feel more included is to determine how one becomes a new board member?
 
 
grant
18:54 / 13.02.08
What, and risk letting the riff-raff in?
 
 
EvskiG
20:42 / 13.02.08
First the twenty-page application.

Next the blood and urine samples.

Then the practical examinations.

Finally, the tattoo.
 
  

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