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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Iron Man - the movie

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22:25 / 30.07.07

It's the Mandarin thing that gets me. Realism aside, it's just terribly doomed to being offensive and possibly annoying. Unless they cast a white guy to play him, because that's always classy. He could front the Mandarin Corporation, specializing in global domination and little oranges.

For that matter, why does Iron Man even need a supervillain? Can't he just beat on an army for a while, deal with some insane business hoohaw, and then, y'know, go have another five drinks?

That's preview makes me absurdly giddy, it must be said. Although, as a playboy knight with both eyes keenly on the future (even if that future is generally limited to making a better flying tank to buzz office buildings), I don't quite get the neocon angle. Traditional Stark arc goes from optimistic industrialist/technologist, to being a pessimistic one, to shooting for a return to - and reason to be - optimistic. Wash, rinse, repeat. He should scare the crap out of most conservatives for partying hard and in all probability, occasionally gifting WMDs to people because they have sexy smiles.

22:54 / 30.07.07

Beneath this thread lies a disease.

23:01 / 30.07.07

tony stark is not an alchoholic in the film, and defended that point by claiming that it was at least a hundred issues into the series before alcholism became a plotline

And Sarah Connor was also a happy-go-lucky waitress at the start of The Terminator. A fairly quick check reveals that the famous Demon in a Bottle storyline started in 1979, 28 years ago, so Tony's been an alcoholic longer than he hasn't been one. I'm not arguing for or against having a tipple here, by the way, I'm arguing that, like a mechanical chestplate, or a dodgy mustache, it's now become a core part of Tony Stark.

By Stan's logic Fantastic Four: Rise of The Silver Surfer should have seen Yuri Gagarin, Herald of Galactus, out to crush the Western world.

23:11 / 30.07.07

As for the Mandarin, are they really going to use the rings? Because that was lame even in the comics from the 1960s.

The Mandarin is awesome. What isn't particularly awesome is the use of the Yellow Peril (or Green Peril, Ming the Merciless style) in this day and age. The Shadow barely got away with it by setting it in the 1930s (and casting the fabulous John Lone).

At his simplest he's a powerful iconic foil for Iron Man. Magic vs technology, East vs West, green skin vs red skin, excavated/stolen power vs Stark's technical genius.

So, a question, would using the Mandarin, sticking closely to the comics version, be racist? Would it be alright if he didn't cackle madly about the destruction of the West and, instead, was a power mad arse who just happened to be Chinese and called himself... for fuck's sake... The Mandarin? There's a reverso-Elseworld's waiting to happen where an Evil Tony Stark declares war on China and calls himself The Capitalist!

00:25 / 31.07.07

While I agree with you in broad princuiple, DM—that fantasy can and should be grounded in realism—I'm afraid you've got the particulars of the thing precisely backwards.

What we talk about when we talk about realism in fantasy—the kind of "realism" that is desirable—is psychological realism; that is, of having characters behave and feel in ways that the audience finds understandable. If your characters are invincible killing machines with no inner lives and no motivations beyond the conveniences of the screenplay, then your movie is a two-dimensional cartoon; it is by definbition not "realistic," even if it's shot in Dogme handheld cinema-verité style on location, even if it's based on true events.

On the other hand, if your characters doubt the morality of their own actions, if they think and feel and bleed, then it doesn't matter if your movie is set in the mythical Robotic Republic of Megatronia—it feels real.

In fact, I would argue that tethering your fantasy to real-world events and locations actually works against the "realism" of your movie—and certainly against its believability. After all, we all know that there is no armored super-soldier currently kicking the Taliban's ass in Afghanistan, and never was. Reality works against "realism," in this case.

(N.B. that alternate-history stories are a quasi-exception to this rule; note also that Iron Man is not an alternate-history story.)

I can't believe I need to explain this stuff to you. To anyone.

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:04 / 31.07.07

In fact, I would argue that tethering your fantasy to real-world events and locations actually works against the "realism" of your movie—and certainly against its believability.

Way-ull - X-Men's opening, with boy Magneto at a concentration camp, works quite well, but of course that is history, and also 20th century mythology to an extent. The Magneto/Professor X history is quite interesting, because they have to keep adjusting it, since time progresses for the characters far more slowly and less consistently than for the reader. So, they meet in Korea, then in Vietnam, then, I think, during the Six-Day war. Iron Man up against modern-day Taliban is a bit more difficult, if that's what they are doing.

09:51 / 31.07.07

jack, I agree with you in every aspect,except with the tethering of fantasy to reality. As Haus pointed out, it can actually work for the realism of the plot, not against it. But the fact if is current events in Iron Man's case, as opposed to historical events as in X-Men, does bring a lot of problematic issues, i.e. building on stereotypes and racism. But, in the end, it is a no-win situation, isn't it? If it were not Afghani rebels, who would it be? North Koreans? Iraquis? Russians? Chinese? Redneck survivalists? I'm not sure there's a way to avoid this mess. I just hope they show whoever it is they are using with the least possible amount of simplification, to show them as people doing what people end up doing in desperate times of war, not just as sadistic monsters who make a living out of doing "evil" stuff like this, is all I meant.

A good solution would be bringing in some international terrorist organization from the comics, like A.I.M or Hydra, but are they going to do it? So far, it seems they aren't.

But, since Iron Monger is in the movie - there are pics on the net already - I have high hopes that the final villain will be the war industry and the corporate/military corrupted system, not some "foreign barbarian".

13:15 / 31.07.07

If it were not Afghani rebels, who would it be? North Koreans? Iraquis? Russians? Chinese? Redneck survivalists? I'm not sure there's a way to avoid this mess.

Again, this seems to me so wrong-headed as to beggar all description.

It's a made-up story with patently fantastical elements. It's not like the filmmakers have painted themselves into a corner of needing to be true to the historical record.

So why not—and I know this is a crazy idea, for a fantasy film—why not set the opening in a made-up country, in the middle of a made-up war? or to not name the country at all and simply refer in vague terms to "hostiles" and "friendlies"?

I don't think it hurts the film to have Iron Man fighting the People's Bokononist Front of Ethniclashistan, rather than the Taliban—because the movie's not about the Taliban, is it? No. It's about Iron Man.

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:19 / 31.07.07

I think we're wandering off thread here. The important thing, surely, is whether the theme tune from the original is preserved?

Tony Stark can make you feel,
He's a cool exec with a heart of steel

Brigade du jour

13:50 / 31.07.07

Of course! I knew there was a reason I felt that Downey Jr was perfect for the role but I couldn't put my finger on it until now ... "a cool exec with a heart of steel", that's just right on the money.

Excited about the trailer, might be even more so when I can hear what the people in it are saying. Officially released online soon, right? Anyone? Bueller?

Brigade du jour

13:51 / 31.07.07

By the way, Haus? Can you remember the next line? Wasn't it "But Iron Man, he's big and strong/He fights the baddies all day long" or something? Sorry, it's been a while ...

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:58 / 31.07.07

I know the bit after that is "Amazing armour! That's Iron Man! A blazing bomber! That's IRON! MAN!"

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:12 / 31.07.07

He's a knight in golden armour,
Fighting Talibs and Osama

I believe...

14:19 / 31.07.07

Tony Stark makes you feel
he's a cool exec with a heart of steel
As Iron Man, all jets ablaze
he fights and smites with repulsor rays!
Amazing armour! That's Iron Man
A blaze of power! That's Iron Man!

14:20 / 31.07.07

My mate Dolores Mackie Mackie has been heavily involved with this project at every stage of production. He's seen dailies for every episode up to nineteen and says that Robert Downey Jnr is not only settling into the role, he's also having a good deal of behind the scenes input with the showrunner and producers concerning a direction for Timmy Stork that many fans will probably find controversial. So expect good things for season two.

14:24 / 31.07.07

I have to admit, I only know it from the Ghostface album. By ear:
"
Tony Stark, he makes you feel, he's the cool exec with a heart of steel.
That's Iron Man, all jets ablaze.
He fights and fights wirh repulsor rays.
Amazing armor, that's Iron Man.
A blaze of power, that's Iron Man.
"

14:40 / 31.07.07

I thought it was

Iron Man, Iron Man,
Does whatever an iron can;
Presses pants, really fine
Keeps those pleats right in line
Hey there!
There goes the Iron Man!

14:58 / 31.07.07

I never read much of the character (except Ultimates and some about Civil War, I believe).

But impressive shots.

15:42 / 31.07.07

Can we not have shirtless Roberty Downey mit mullet, shirtless and sweaty, hammering away screaming "I! AM! IR! ON! MAN!"

Do it right.

15:47 / 31.07.07

Uhm. You might wanna look at this, too: Iron man's ""improvised"" armor.

I have to admit the armor looks *almost* convincingly ragged, dented, haphazardly built and ad hoc enough for the old suspension of disbelief. By this time it's not important anymore, really, the cool factor is taking over here... this looks basically wicked.

15:54 / 31.07.07

It's a made-up story with patently fantastical elements.

Yeah, kind like the war on Iraq, isn'it?

But hey, even if they choose to set the action on a fictional country during a fictional war, it still gonna be a fictional middle-eastern country during a fictional war against arab-looking, muslim-nesque enemies (as the trailer seems to indicate, at least), so I still don't see how it would be any better, politically speaking. You can call a chicken a ckichen, it still gonna have feathers and a beak

And there's a difference between fantasy and sci-fi, Jack. Let us not get our film genres confused.

Coincidentally, Scifi.com has run an article on Favreauy talking about Iron Man villains, present and future

16:12 / 31.07.07

And there's a difference between fantasy and sci-fi, Jack.

Oh, bullshit. Sci-fi is just fantasy with rivets on it.

16:23 / 31.07.07

Spacer opera is fantasy with rivets. Sci-fi is those absurd-looking stories with a bad habit of becoming reality after a couple of decades. I wouldn't be surprised if, a hundred years from now, wars end up being fought by soldiers in super-tech battle-suits.

Not to mention mechas.

Piloted by clones...

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:31 / 31.07.07

Right. In which case this is not sci-fi, and the comic book Iron Man is not sci-fi, because set in the present day, or something very like it. This is because Iron Man is a comic book superhero movie - that is, a movie set in a recognisable if often stylised present day, in which there happen to be one or more superhumans knocking about. Examples include Batman and sequuels, Superman and sequels, X-Men and sequels, Daredevil, Ghost Rider and Iron Man.

16:37 / 31.07.07

Yeah, but it describes the beggining of a new technology and the arms race ensuing therefrom, so it still classifies as sci-fi. Plus, alternate realities stiil rank as a sci-fic sub-genre.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:40 / 31.07.07

I have no idea why I allowed myself to be drawn into this utterly pointless argument. Please behave as if I did not. Jack Fear is over there, and will be aerobically intransigent.

16:41 / 31.07.07

Oh, I should point out I'm referrinf to Iron Man, the Movie, specifically, which I believe it remains in a "universe" isolated from other super-heroes realities

So,I guess Iron-Man, the Movie, would be sci-fi, while Iron-Man, the Comic Book, is fantasy. (unless Movie-Mandarin turns out to actually have "magic" rings, of course)

16:53 / 31.07.07

KILL ME NOW.

17:13 / 31.07.07

Don't look at me, man. I'm just innocently dangling this hook over here; am I to blame if somebody insists on jumping at it?

ONLY NICE THINGS

17:36 / 31.07.07

A trickster figure. Not unlike Coyote.

So, how much more of this torture do we have to endure before the film is released and nobody wants to talk about it any more? A year?

19:06 / 31.07.07

oh, yeah, I keep forgeting how much more smart, witty, and enlightened you guys are in than everybody else in every possible subject conceivable. me, I just thought we were having a nice chat

Don't worry Haus, I'm sure that, as soon as this argument in which nobody wanted to participate is over, someone here will start another argument in which nobody wanted to participate exaclty like this. Such is Barbelith

20:10 / 31.07.07

Um, how again is not science fiction, now? Fiction, hinging on new technology, or new/unique application of a previous technology? And starting a recognizable present-day doesn't mean much, I mean, that Eraser movie and JG Ballard's Crash are science fiction. New technology and new use.

Not that it matters, in the end, whether there's such an application of genre or not. It's a billionaire wrapped in red iron being heroic and kinda assholish I want to see, not (a) See how contempoary we are! or Look! it's Science Fiction! up on the screen.

Mandarin-handling will make or break it for me, but everything else so far, I actually think works just fine. Really fine, actually.

ONLY NICE THINGS

20:29 / 31.07.07

Please stop trolling, Dead Megatron. Please also stop trolling, Jack Fear.

Anyway, since we have 9 months to wait until this wraps, let's speculate wildly. For all this talk about the treatment of the Mandarin, it seems we only have John Favreau's word for his inclusion, talking to a comic convention audience. Presumably, if any of the named cast are in fact the Mandarin, it will be Shaun Toub - an interesting choice, since Toub is a British-American actor with Sephardic Persian roots. Interestingly, he appears to be playing a character with a Chinese name, but is not identiifed as the Mandarin. In fact, I would be surprised if the word "Mandarin" gets a lot of play when a comic book audience is not being addressed.

Personally, I'm hoping for this almost too perfect piece of casting (left):

04:32 / 01.08.07

The SDCC clip was majorly cool, especially Downey's droll performance in the intro scene and the bit where he talks to a reporter prior to getting into a limo. Very flip, very smart, DEAD ON, Downeywise.

10:15 / 01.08.07

Not that it matters, in the end, whether there's such an application of genre or not. It's a billionaire wrapped in red iron being heroic and kinda assholish I want to see, not (a) See how contempoary we are! or Look! it's Science Fiction! up on the screen.

Yup exactly what DN said. With no Michael Bay to ruin it, I'm excited

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