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Banning Discussion: Claris Dancers

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Pyewacket The Elder

11:37 / 26.06.07

Haus, TTS, there is probably value in clarifying for Claris why you are unimpressed by his threadbare apologies and retractions and specifically point to which parts of his behaviour he hasn't adequately apologised for and precisely how he could do so should he feel genuinely disposed to.

This is an emotionally charged situation however if the statement is made that people are unimpressed by an apology I think it a continuation of the pointed and thought-out critique established thus far to clarify specifically what, how, when and what precisely is expected. If at the eleventh hour it is still too little too late then at least it may serve as good advice in the future and certainly if we are lambasting someone for using too much 'emotion' than 'head' then we must endeavour to lead via example.

Hope this doesn't come across as criticism as its not meant as such.

Claris: How about playing the game of 'what if' (if you're up for it): - what long term future goals would you hope to achieve in the event that a ban was not enforced? How would the forum know you are genuine about achieving them and how would the forum see that you are achieving them?

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:45 / 26.06.07

Ivor, you appear to have put "unimpressed" and "threadbare" in bold, there, suggesting that they are direct quotes. TTS uses "threadbare" in the previous page, but I cannot find any instance where I have used either word. In fact, I said specifically that I was surprised and impressed by the retraction. This is quite significantly different.

I am also not at all sure where you got the idea that we are lambasting someone for using too much 'emotion' than 'head'. Could you support?

11:45 / 26.06.07

To be fair, IVoR, I think Haus has written quite a lot about why he doesn't believe the apology offered so far is sufficient. So far I haven't seen Claris Dancers respond to what Haus has written in a way that he demonstrates that he understands what Haus is getting at, so it's currently not incumbent on Haus to write any more by way of explanation than he has already.

I'd really like to read Claris' response. You still here?

11:49 / 26.06.07

That was really badly phrased. What I meant to say is that Haus has done what you're saying he should do, and so far we haven't really had a full reponse to gauge whether Claris Dancers understands why his apology might not address what is being asked of him.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

12:34 / 26.06.07

TTS, there is probably value in clarifying for Claris why you are unimpressed by his threadbare apologies and retractions and specifically point to which parts of his behaviour he hasn't adequately apologised for and precisely how he could do so should he feel genuinely disposed to.

For a start, I would like to see a clear indication that CD has thoroughly rethought his position on feminism and violence against women, esp. his assertion that women regularly "cry rape" to exert power over men. This is a counterfactual (and fucking revolting) claim, easily dismissed with even the most cursory glance over the available evidence. I would like it a lot if CD were to read the Feminism 101 thread all the way through, and at least go away and Google the phrase "rape myths."

I'd also like to see a similar clear indication that he is performing a similar rethink on his attitude to race issues.

A retraction of that "mutual masturbation/you're going to kick me out no matter what I do" stuff would be helpful to me as well, as I would then be more able to believe that I was in the presence of a reasonable human being who was willing to take on board and process new information rather than lashing out at people who disagreed with him, and who was likely to make a serious effort to avoid giving similar offence in future. Right now I'm not getting that at all. What I'm getting is more a sort of poor-me vibe, which creates in my mind an expectation of reading similar offensive comments from this poster in future and also an expectation that he will respond badly when the offense is pointed out. This makes the board a less pleasant place for me to hang out in.

13:12 / 26.06.07

Claris: How about playing the game of 'what if' (if you're up for it): - what long term future goals would you hope to achieve in the event that a ban was not enforced? How would the forum know you are genuine about achieving them and how would the forum see that you are achieving them?

Justify my existence? Where do I see myself in five years? This should all be self evident, actually. And if it's not, then i would suggest that either you havent been paying attention or you are questioning my previous statements and wish me to reiterate. But i will clarify:
My intentions are to put significantly more thought into my posts, to word my replies in a more verbose and hopefully clearer manner, and to try not to piss anyone off while still getting my points across. People wouldnt know i was genuine about achieving these goals unless they trust me (doubtful) or they see it for themselves. In short, I plan to be a "good boy."

13:52 / 26.06.07

Still working on the reply to haus, and reading all the way through fem 101 but for now:

"mutual masturbation/you're going to kick me out no matter what I do"

I believe I said, "However if it's the case that i will be tossed anyway in spite of my efforts"
It was a conditional statement. And the mutual masturbation was on your part. as i said a sentence later, "In any case, I feel like I have learned a great deal."

I just looked up "rape myths," this is from the first result:
Myth: Women often make false reports of rape.
Fact: According to FBI crime statistics, during the 1990s around 8 percent. The “unfounded” rate, or percentage of complaints determined through investigation to be false, is higher for forcible rape than for any other Index crime. Eight percent of forcible rape complaints in 1996 were “unfounded,” while the average for all Index crimes was 2 percent.

So first off, the 'unfounded rate' (8% vs 2%) makes the pickpocket analogy laughable. Secondly, since there were 291,820 number of rapes in 1996 (according to this, then that makes 23,345.6 cases of false accusations. Almost 64 a day. So yes, as distasteful as it may sound, it does happen quite alot.

Now, understand, im not saying that all women do this. Im not saying that most women do this. Im not even saying that a vast majority of women do this. There is 92% (in 1996 anyway) that are wholly valid, factual, and terrible.

Now, am I in trouble for posting all that even though it was researched, sensitively worded, and not counterfactual? If so, then perhaps I really don't belong here.

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:59 / 26.06.07

Yes, and yes.

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:00 / 26.06.07

Does it specify how many of those were seeking power over men, Claris? Or indeed how many were seeking to capitalise on the emotional impact of rape for their own gain?

Once again, you're having trouble with nuance - it's telling that you have decided that your wording was sensitive, your research adequate - would it be sensible to ask, rather, if your wording was sensitive, or your research adequate?

14:10 / 26.06.07

Very well, was my wording sensitive enough and my research adequate?

I dont want to seem condescending asking that.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

14:12 / 26.06.07

Well, if you call reading the first web-page you came to and jumping gleefully on the results of one particular study--contradicted elsewhere-- blithely ignoring the part where the same cocking page tells us that The FBI reports that only 2% of rapes reports are given falsely. This is the same report rate for other felonies and Only two percent of reported rape and related sex offences are false (which is approximately the same rate of false reports for other crimes) "researched," I'm kind of not jumping off the ban-wagon yet. In my book, "researched" would indicate "having read more than one website or failing that at least reading the rest of the page instead of just cut'n'pasting the juicy bit."

Did you perchance happen to read any other pages while you were out there researching? Didn't happen to notice anything else interesting about the statistics? Like the fact that the vast majority of rapes don't get reported at all?

In other words, congratulations for being more eager to prove that you're right and we're all wrong than to actually learn anything about the violent crime under discussion.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

14:14 / 26.06.07

Anyhow, I'm out of this discussion now. That's it for me. Can't be bothered anymore.

14:18 / 26.06.07

In short, I plan to be a "good boy."

Dude, pull yourself together.

What's the point of groveling like this?

The thing about pissing on one's own chips is that there isn't really a rewind button. Especially after one's eaten them, the chips - frankly, this sort of thing is a bit horrific, trust me, I know. But wouldn't it be better to make a dignified exit, rather than indulging in all this tiring self-abasement, which I'm quite sure you don't mean in any case.

This is just a dodgy website run by Mugwamps, witches and academics, after all. Some of whom are invisible.

14:19 / 26.06.07

Like the fact that the vast majority of rapes don't get reported at all?

How do they come to that conclusion? what exact number havent been reported? im not saying it doesnt happen because i know for a fact that it does, but what is this "vast majority?"

14:22 / 26.06.07

Dude, im not groveling. Im also not the douchebag people here seem to see.

Anyway, im here to play the game and im learning the rules. What is a game without rules?

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:22 / 26.06.07

Let's not forget that not only did CD jump on the first statistic he saw that would prove he was right and we were a bunch of over-sensitive etc etc, he also included the odd phrase to let us know that's what he really feels, still: So first off, the 'unfounded rate' (8% vs 2%) makes the pickpocket analogy laughable. [Italics mine.]

This is according to form: go back to the Ron Paul thread, and you'll see it was he who first quipped about how I thought I was cool, much like his entrance into the Feminism 101 thread consisted of telling Anna de L that she was too sensitive. It's not just that his opinions are manure - it's also that he's a troll.

14:27 / 26.06.07

The FBI reports that only 2% of rapes reports are given falsely. This is the same report rate for other felonies and Only two percent of reported rape and related sex offences are false (which is approximately the same rate of false reports for other crimes)

I assumed that was for not the 1990s and 1996 in particular, same as the other sites i looked at. Perhaps times have changed? Perhaps questionnaires have changed? Perhaps there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics, thus invalidating all of this? I dont know.

14:52 / 26.06.07

Im also not the douchebag people here seem to see.

Perhaps this is to do with the way you express yourself?

I've been a member of various Hard Right organisations since the age of 5, but I choose not to mention the beliefs I love more than life itself in social situations, because it seems as if they might be a bit depressing.

A certain amount of decorum when it comes to this sort of thing isn't too much to ask for, is it?

(You are, of course, welcome, CD, to visit my gated place in near Nairobi - I'm pretty much sure in there with the people that matter. Like that Damon Albarn.)

Less searchable M0rd4nt

15:02 / 26.06.07

Out, apart from this:

Some police officers believe that there is an unusually high rate of false rape reports (by both college students and the general population of women). The FBI does not separately track false reports; it tracks only the total number of unfounded reports. The category of "unfounded" consists of both baseless cases–in which the elements of the crime were never met–and false reports. In 1998, unfounded rape reports accounted for 8 percent of total reported rapes; however, this number is questionable. Some police officers incorrectly think that a rape report is unfounded or false if any of the following conditions apply:

* the victim has a prior relationship with the offender (including having previously been intimate with him);
* the victim used alcohol or drugs at the time of the assault;
* there is no visible evidence of injury;
* the victim delays disclosure to the police and/or others and does not undergo a rape medical exam; and/or
* the victim fails to immediately label her assault as rape and/or blames herself.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

15:12 / 26.06.07

...and this, which I think anyone who isn't sitting in the corner chanting "lalalala, not listening!" would agree puts a rather different complexion on things.

15:27 / 26.06.07

Out, apart from this:

That is informative, thank you.

Tryphena Absent

16:05 / 26.06.07

Oh lord of all that's... Claris do you also think that every person accused of rape who isn't convicted is innocent of the crime?

Pyewacket The Elder

16:46 / 26.06.07

Haus - re: "emotion" and "head". Quite correct to call me on those woolly terms and I retract them as meaningless generalities describing parts of every human being in some manner or form in a variety of manifestations all of which is not specific enough to use in this discussion.

Claris - my questions are not intended to make you justify your existence dude. You seem serious about engaging with a lot of the points raised. The fact that you are reading stuff in order to further engage with the pertinent subjects is admirable and pretty rare amongst the many who have been made to walk the gangplank.

Perhaps some are hasty in knocking you for your initial research, although correct to point out its limitations, and it is clear from your compliment, re: TTS's excellent links, that you are by no means drawing the line of right and wrong based solely on that website. I certainly did not read that message in your post explicitly (or subliminally for that matter). Please correct me on any point in the event I have misrepresented you.

My questions were simply designed to highlight the specifics of what would be needed for people to change their minds about you. Otherwise, as you pointed out with different words, all this is just kind of pointless guff given the finality of decision implied by many comments here.

I actually, and specifically, do NOT want you to dance for me - just trying to manage the course of argument for extra added value, vitamins and minerals for all involved.

17:10 / 26.06.07

Claris, I don't want to appear mean, but as a board I don't think we want to have to explain that women don't cry rape to get power over men. It's pretty obvious not only that it's a myth, but that it's an easily disproven myth perpetuated for pretty obvious reasons. Explaining it to you is not only tiresome, but frustrating and offending because what you're saying isn't only a common myth but an offensive myth (which leads people to believe that your reasons for believing it are the same as the reasons many other people do i.e. misogyny).

So, can it be ban time now please Tom?

17:40 / 26.06.07

do you also think that every person accused of rape who isn't convicted is innocent of the crime?

No.

all this is just kind of pointless guff given the finality of decision implied by many comments here.

So it seems indeed.

but as a board I don't think we want to have to explain that women don't cry rape to get power over men.

I never asked you to, but it does happen. Im not going to tell you again how often i think it happens, because ive stated it plenty. Oh hell: not very often but too often if it happens at all. Personally I find it almost as offensive and damaging as actual rape given the fallout that can and does occur to the victims of false accusation.

(which leads people to believe that your reasons for believing it are the same as the reasons many other people do i.e. misogyny).

Or, perhaps, maybe, just could it be, personal experience?

Thank you for the sentiments, IVoR, and no you have not misrepresented me in your statements. But this seems to be the lolcat consensus:

So, can it be ban time now please Tom?

Shit or get off the pot you crazy fucks!

17:48 / 26.06.07

Or, perhaps, maybe, just could it be, personal experience?

Now, that is interesting. You were falsely accused of rape from a woman who used that to gain power over you - or a friend of yours, perhaps?

17:48 / 26.06.07

Personally I find it almost as offensive and damaging as actual rape given the fallout that can and does occur to the victims of false accusation.

I'd disagree with you strongly. Very very strongly.

And re: shit or off pot, I'm not sure which option corresponds to banning but that's the option we're taking at the moment. I don't think anyone's said we shouldn't ban you, but we don't have a banhammer right now so please be patient and our normal painfully-slow service will be resumed shortly.

17:55 / 26.06.07

So, for clarity's sake, can I ask anyone who is opposed to banning Claris Dancers to say so?

ONLY NICE THINGS

18:44 / 26.06.07

Haus - re: "emotion" and "head". Quite correct to call me on those woolly terms and I retract them as meaningless generalities describing parts of every human being in some manner or form in a variety of manifestations all of which is not specific enough to use in this discussion.

That's very nice, but that's not what I asked. I don't object to them as meaningless generalities; I object to them as part of the formulation: if we are lambasting someone for using too much 'emotion' than 'head' then we must endeavour to lead via example, because I don't think that that is what we are doing, nor do I think that there is much in the way of evidence to suggest that that is what we are doing. Likewise:

Ivor, you appear to have put "unimpressed" and "threadbare" in bold, there, suggesting that they are direct quotes. TTS uses "threadbare" in the previous page, but I cannot find any instance where I have used either word. In fact, I said specifically that I was surprised and impressed by the retraction. This is quite significantly different.

My point is that if you want to guide the discussion for added value, a good start might be to read it, attentively.

Pyewacket The Elder

18:47 / 26.06.07

Your are 100% correct Skipper, I doff my cap in supplication.

20:14 / 26.06.07

So, for clarity's sake, can I ask anyone who is opposed to banning Claris Dancers to say so?

In the first place, am not feeling like it is my place to vote on these issues. However, banning is not that horrible a fate, although it doesn't feel very good, I bet. One can reapply, after some soul-searching. In fact, it may be to their benefit that a new suit would have to be made. I am not certain that will ignite the fires of enlightenment, but it does make a point - that this kind of prejudice viewpoint is not healthy, and Barbelithers don't want to propogate it here. That should be the message. It would be nice if there was some course to take after that to ensure the proper education, but there isn't. It is very hard to let go of some of the lies we hold to be true. It is hard to see the damage that can create, even in one's personal life. Maybe, now that CD is somewhat aware of his error, he will notice how he applies wrong thinking in other ways.

It is okay to be wrong, Claris. And if you had a terrible experience, then maybe you want to talk about it, a bit. Look at this way; you are most likely going to get banned, so you will have a fresh start, anyway. You don't have to, of course. I wouldn't want to coerce you into doing something you are not comfortable with.

Tryphena Absent

22:37 / 26.06.07

Personally I find it almost as offensive and damaging as actual rape given the fallout that can and does occur to the victims of false accusation.

Personally I think telling someone to fuck off is almost as offensive and damaging as hitting them in the face with a heavy metal object.

Jawsus-son Starship

10:20 / 27.06.07

Personally I find it almost as offensive and damaging as actual rape given the fallout that can and does occur to the victims of false accusation.

It's not though, is it? It is probably a horrible experience, but you can't believe that it's on a par with rape? Pure idiocy. Can we get a meaningful retraction on this?

Pyewacket The Elder

11:53 / 27.06.07

Top post Medulla - wise words indeed.

13:15 / 27.06.07

Until Justice Coates comes this way. I offer some mild entertainment.

Silly baby, Fears the ladies,
Heading for the ban...
Selective eyes, can't answer why,
We criticise this sham.

'Fem hyena, you must have seen her
tryin to trap the man
and now she's blamed me, almost maimed me
evidence be damned!'

When he speaks, out in our streets,
shouting our pick-outs as odd
though it's a slap, we just laugh,
the barbe-banning ain't so bad

Claris man, he makes his stand
in our auditorium
looking on, we see he's wrong
this tune we know, we're getting numb

(Break it down!)

Oh, now it reads unreal
[you're] lying here, you just won't hear
Claris, your ugly views can't cheer me
So we say softly, slowly...

(Everybody Now!)

...

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