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Banning Discussion: Claris Dancers

 
  

Page: 123(4)5678

 
 
petunia
17:55 / 22.06.07
And i bet you laughed, just a little, at the song, didn't you?
 
 
petunia
17:56 / 22.06.07
Also, as YO! says. Pleasure no= excitement. I save my excitement for better things.
 
 
Seth
18:03 / 22.06.07
I am absolutely astounded by YO!'s ongoing attempt to converse with you. He is taking the time and effort that i geniunely cannot find for you. If the miraculous should happen and Yo! brings about an understanding in you that was previously lacking, you can be sure of my apology.

I appreciate the compliment and I'd also like to point out that I'm not only trying to communicate the perspective of many people on Barbelith, I'm trying to understand Claris Dancers' perspective too. I don't necessarily believe that mutual understanding is the same thing as mutual compatibility, mind. We'll see how that works out.

It might help to know that I actually quite like Claris Dancers after the way ze and I have been chatting here. I have quite a few friends who take up similar stances in similar ways from time to time. And I have an evening free, which is rare.
 
 
Seth
18:07 / 22.06.07
(threadrot)Plus while I'm writing here I am honouring a promise made to myself to listen to all of Conlon Nancarrow's Studies for Player Piano. Currently on disc three. I am enjoying it greatly and feel that many people's experience of Barbelith would be better with a decent soundtrack. However I have a five am start tomorrow and it is therefore nearly my bedtime.(/threadrot)
 
 
Claris Dancers
18:12 / 22.06.07
At no point was I excited and I'd lay money that no one else was

Looks like you would lose that bet.


I'll go back and reread the threads so that I can see if there were any examples that support you being shouted down, would you agree with me to do the same? We can come back here and post them.

sure, one sec...


Will things be different for you if you feel you are presented with something?

Absolutely. And if I found it to be without merit, then i will disagree, as I assume anyone else would.


I am absolutely astounded by YO!'s ongoing attempt to converse with you.

I know, as am I. Im actually being considered. How about that?
 
 
Seth
18:17 / 22.06.07
Looks like you would lose that bet.

Yeah, I guess I would, wouldn't I? And it would all be going so well if it weren't for that pesky .trampetunia.

Never mind.

Is it too late to amend my stance to I'd lay money that MOST people aren't excited? Because I still believe that to be the case, that most people are feeling frustrated and angry. I still don’t feel that even .trampetunia is getting properly sadistic kicks out of wanting you gone.
 
 
Seth
18:19 / 22.06.07
Good job I didn't actually bet any money innit? That would have sucked.
 
 
Quantum
18:21 / 22.06.07
I'm not excited. I've had quite a nice day, so I'm not angry or frustrated either actually.
 
 
petunia
18:22 / 22.06.07
It's true. My sadistic kicks aren't the full Marquis on this one...
 
 
Seth
18:25 / 22.06.07
So can I have that and still be winning the bet so far?
 
 
Seth
18:25 / 22.06.07
Well, that's if Der Falke clarifies also...
 
 
Quantum
18:30 / 22.06.07
Why do you think people might react the way they have? Can you see why people might object to your posts? (me)

Of course, my posts are generally very opinionated i believe. And combining opinionated posts with oversensitive people or "high stakes" would logically cause problems. However, why does this have to be the case? What is wrong with differences of opinion? Why am i being banned for thinking differently? CD

Lots of people write very opinionated posts here. Differences of opinion aren't the problem, you're not being banned for thinking differently. The objection is to the way you're posting, assuming that everyone is oversensitive, and not considering it could be what you've written that's the problem as opposed to *everyone else* being a certain way (i.e. oversensitive). I mean, which seems more likely? That everyone here is living in a pocket dimension, or that there could be aspects of your posting that offend people, whether you meant to offend or not? I'm sure in your head it sounds reasonable and I can see how you might be astonished people could think you were being racist or insensitive, but why would people pretend to be upset when they weren't? Isn't it more likely they were genuinely perturbed?
 
 
Claris Dancers
18:32 / 22.06.07
I'll go back and reread the threads so that I can see if there were any examples that support you being shouted down, would you agree with me to do the same? We can come back here and post them.

For some reason, my current handle was ignored for most of the ron paul thread:

I found myself overcome with compassion for poor Qwik, surrounded as he was by ignorant and stupid people.

Qwik: if you whine like a tiny, tiny child...

You represent yourself quite successfully as an ignorant man with very little life experience and a propensity to believe anything that chimes with his prejudices.

So. You are, and remain, a waste of text. You have never said anything, to my knowledge, of genuine interest on Barbelith, and it is unlikely that you will.

Yes, you did, because you ran away with a pillow over your head and smashed yourself in the face until you forgot it. You can now tell yourself that I am making this up to try to get power over you.

-- whatever the hell that means

It's gibberish - the ink-squirting stage, followed by the off-in-a-huff stage
 
 
Claris Dancers
18:37 / 22.06.07
I mean, which seems more likely? That everyone here is living in a pocket dimension, or that there could be aspects of your posting that offend people, whether you meant to offend or not?

You assume that I dont speak to anyone else in real life or post on any other message boards. This is the only place that ive had a problem.


but why would people pretend to be upset

I never said they were pretending, it actually never crossed my mind. I just didnt understand, and i still dont understand what makes this place so different from everywhere else i converse with other human beings.
 
 
Seth
18:41 / 22.06.07
Yeah, I pretty much agree that Haus is snarky and nasty in that thread. Don't really think it helped anyone much. Maybe he'll come along soon and give his reasons.

Still reading...
 
 
Seth
18:46 / 22.06.07
I just didnt understand, and i still dont understand what makes this place so different from everywhere else i converse with other human beings.

It's different to most places I converse with other human beings too. I find I can shoot the shit articulately with people on a wider range of specialist subjects here, and they don't always write what think I want to read. I've had my experience of rows on Barbelith too.
 
 
Seth
18:46 / 22.06.07
Now I'm no longer reading, I'm off to bed. Night all.
 
 
Claris Dancers
18:51 / 22.06.07
More misrepresentation than shouting down in the Feminism 101 thread, but here you go:


Qwick, I agree with your assessment of the 'all men are rapists' school of feminism.

-- which i never said


(As if to a small child)
Well, of course it is. You need to believe that in order to continue to create straw man arguments.


That seems a rather emotional, intuitive, tangential and, frankly, womanish approach.

-- as if trying to goad me into...something. not really sure what.


I'm quoting Dworkin directly. That is not out of context since you keep citing her for things she has not said.
-- everything i cited was a direct quote, not some made up garbage.
 
 
Seth
19:05 / 22.06.07
Ok, but misinterpretation is easily dealt with, right? You just clarify what you meant in different ways and check their understanding at different points to ensure you're on the same page.

By the way, I'm noticing large numbers of people who didn't shout you down. I agree that Haus was nasty. I don't agree that everyone acted that way in all instances. Not nearly.

(Posted from my phone in bed in case you were wondering. And yes, I am naked right now.)
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
19:22 / 22.06.07
OMG Teh hawtness...

Anyway:

Claris Dancers:i still dont understand what makes this place so different from everywhere else i converse with other human beings.

We've got high standards, to put it plainly. People on this board are under no obligation to suffer fools because, unlike our peer-groups and workplaces, we can take or leave Barbelith as we choose, so there's no reason for anybody to bite thier tongue in order to keep things running smoothly when somebody says something we disagree with. If I was to describe something as 'totally gay' amongst my peers and coworkers nobody would bat an eyelid, but here I would, quite rightly, be asked why I use the word 'gay' to describe something as bad and what that says about me as a person. Before I joined the Barb' waaay back in the bad old days I probably would have used 'gay' interchangibly with 'bad', in fact I know I did, and I had a bunch of other fairly ugly opinions and habits. Not cross-burning frothing-at-the-mouth everybody-who's-ever-been-raped-had-it-coming ugly, but the regular kind of everyday ugly that often goes unnoticed. Then I got into this environment, surrounded by people a whole lot smarter and more experienced in the world than I was and I got better. I listened, learnt that there is a right way (backing up any claim, particularly if it is likely to be contentious, with solid evidence) and a wrong way (relying on 'common sense' or failing to supply evidence at all) to discuss something, and gradually I got rid of a lot of the childish crap I used to think.
Two of the things you said that people have a problem with ('There have been too many women seeking power over men (by) claiming they were raped when they were not and any actual racism is either entirely self-imposed (as Ron Paul implies), or incredibly overblown by the media.) were not backed up with anything. You got called on that, here and in the threads themselves, because that is what we do here that's different from a chat around the water-cooler. This was your time to shine, to show all of us hypersensitive types evidence to back up your claims. You didn't, and won't, and can't, because the evidence does not exist. Knowing this the mature response is to admit you were wrong and learn from the experience, the same way me and everybody else on this has had to when we believed in convinient fictions rather than hard facts.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
19:29 / 22.06.07
Well! It appears that my half page speculation was way off. Now we've got two extra pages and a naked poster. Wonderful. I've got to get to work, so I'll make this as quick as possible:

Barbelith aims to be a different kind of place, which may explain why you're having a hard time, CD. Some of the ideas you've espoused are considered quite harmful here, in a real world sense, you know, actually causing harm out there in the world. If you need an explanation why, I'm positive it can be given to you, but keep in mind these are not merely our opinions, like who our favorite actor is or what our taste in clothes are. We see these ideas causing harm all the time. Bottom line is: we do not want Barbelith to be home to these ideas or to posters who declare them.

Since you claim you've never been given a warning before, I imagine that if you are allowed to remain a member of barbelith you will be asked to not post anything even remotely controversial. You will learn what's cool and what's not by reading Barbelith and asking people. Doing this will give you an idea of what kind of place Barbelith is trying to be, and wether or not you want to be a part o it. So if something seems even a little bit questionable to you, for god's sake don't post it because another slip-up and you are gone. Consider this very thread as formal a warning as Barbelith will ever make.

If this all seems like too much of a hassel, then feel free to leave. But if you're allowed to stay, then those will most likely be the conditions. What say you, sir.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:40 / 22.06.07
Knowing this the mature response is to admit you were wrong and learn from the experience, the same way me and everybody else on this has had to when we believed in convinient fictions rather than hard facts.

That is so hott.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
20:02 / 22.06.07
CD- I can honestly say that my comment in no way suggests excitement. If it did, frankly, I wouldn't want you gone as soon as possible.

I am irritable. I am still feeling very hostile to you. But most of all I am bored.

I am bored of people who think that supporting dominant prejudices is somehow 'radical' or 'iconoclastic'. I am bored of people who have a hundred places on the Internet where they can spout the sort of stuff you've been spouting acting as if not being able to do it here is an infringment of their human rights. And I am bored of feeling like I should care about the feelings of people who show no evidence that they feel they should extend the same courtesy to other people on Barbelith.

So excitement is the opposite of what I am feeling. I'm just not feeling like I have the energy for this.

And the reason I supported your banning, and bluntly still do, is this.

I don't think that the chance you'll become a productive contributing member of Barbelith, on the evidence I've seen so far, is worth taking the high risk of you causing unnecessary aggravation and distress to posters who's contributions I already consider valuable. Because people have to put up with enough of this crap in society as a whole, without me feeling comfortable expecting them to put up with it here.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:03 / 22.06.07
Right Claris, I want to make something abundantly clear. This is a thread, among others, in which you have been questioned consistently. You have the whole of the thread to look at, you could go back, copy the questions and respond to them, in fact you could have used your intiative and already answered them. Likewise you could have popped into Feminism 101 or Ron Paul and responded to the questions and comments there. You have not done that, your answers here have been trivial rather than detailed, you haven't even particularly engaged with Yo in spite of his measured, compassionate engagement with you.

When I look at these threads I do not approach them with the lynch in my hand, they make me sad because I always hope that people will be a little shocked by them or find them provocative in a good way. Every single time (almost) I hope someone will think "well shit, that's not what I meant, how can I get it across that I'm not racist/sexist/generalising." It so rarely happens, in fact people usually generalise things more as if it's going to extricate them. For a while I thought we were being too aggressive, too unwilling to let people explain and we were obstructing them but we don't have time to be that compassionate because we need to find the solution and stop dealing with the problem constantly, it's too damaging and it burns all the energy that we could use to make our brains more beautiful. If I'm going to continue engaging here, which hasn't happened much over the last 8 months, I need to be able to engage with the good and you infringe horribly on that ability because your lack of self-examination and awareness means that your writing hurts people.

I can't hear racist and sexist generalisations of the type that you've been writing, the types of feelings you express about the violation of people's bodies, the stark inability to recognise basic inequality, without feeling tremendously weary. It's not just me. People here are rude because they really think that you're too stupid to read what you've written from any perspective except your own and this isn't talking, this isn't "that slipped out and I meant it like this..." for one thing there is no like this, you mean what you say and the other thing is that you can stop, read back and review whether your thoughts have been expressed clearly because you're writing them down. Sometimes we still get it wrong but I think it's the explanations that count and yours have sucked. Those are the reasons why I hope you'll go now because your heart just isn't here and I don't think you want it to be. This is a place of investment, we all invest in it, it's changing, we're not bunny ears anymore, there's not the fluff, it's been too much, so go.
 
 
Claris Dancers
21:18 / 22.06.07
I don't agree that everyone acted that way in all instances. Not nearly.
I see that as well now.

And yes, I am naked right now.
Yikes.

were not backed up with anything. You got called on that, here and in the threads themselves, because that is what we do here that's different from a chat around the water-cooler
You are correct, all I had was my personal knowledge without any corroborating evidence to back it up. I see that that is entirely unacceptable here, and I apologize. Really, i do. It was never my intention to cause the grief i apparently have. I will severely endeavor to be more methodical in the future. Ironically, on other boards I am the one telling people that they have to back up their claims.

Since you claim you've never been given a warning before, I imagine that if you are allowed to remain a member of barbelith you will be asked to not post anything even remotely controversial .... So if something seems even a little bit questionable to you, for god's sake don't post it because another slip-up and you are gone. Consider this very thread as formal a warning as Barbelith will ever make.

If this all seems like too much of a hassel, then feel free to leave. But if you're allowed to stay, then those will most likely be the conditions. What say you, sir.


Yes that sounds very reasonable to me. If allowed to stay, i would gladly accept those conditions. I imagine I would also take a break for a little while to let everyone cool down since i would imagine most are "still feeling very hostile" toward me.

"well shit, that's not what I meant, how can I get it across that I'm not racist/sexist/generalising."
That is what i was thinking, but i suppose i was abit flustered, and being called a "waste of text" and told that i "whine like a tiny, tiny child" wasn't helping to clear my thoughts. So let me say it now, I did not mean to come across as you perceived. I did not mean to appear racist or sexist. I should have thought out my responses better and replied more appropriately.

you haven't even particularly engaged with Yo in spite of his measured, compassionate engagement with you.
Im not seeing that, i thought i have been quite engaged in this thread and YO! in particular, which I am grateful for. Can you explain this part to me a little more?

All said and done, even if I am given das boot, I do appreciate everyones contribution to this thread (starting on page 3 anyway) and their attempts to explain this all to my dumb ass.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:29 / 22.06.07
Look it's pretty simple, go back over the last two pages and read back what you've written as if someone else wrote it. Scan it before you read it, first you'll hopefully notice that your answers generally consist of short, one line responses and that indicates that you're not very invested in responding to people. You can't get opinions across when you're not actually expressing your reasons and thoughts. Secondly you'll hopefully see that when you write you come across as flippant, you use humour to deflect. That's pretty standard for the Internet, people do it all the time and most of the time it's accepted as someone taking on the role of peacemaker but this isn't that kind of area. This is primarily a place for people to explore their own views and learn to criticise them, it's forgiving if people are inclined to do this, if they're not and they try to shut discussion down then it's very unforgiving. You haven't tried to explore what's wrong with your opinions, you set them in stone and expect people to believe that they're right for you but the truth is that opinion, particularly the type of social and cultural opinion that you express isn't like that. I am often wrong, barbelith points it out and makes me think about it, when Randy tells me I'm being fucked up about political complicity I think hard about it and it doesn't really matter if I end up in the same place at the end, I need to consider it in case I'm wrong and judging things from a bias I didn't know I had. My problem with your response to Yo is that I don't think you've really responded, you've nodded to response, you've uttered a few words but you've not detailed anything out and his words are open and fleshed.

I should have thought out my responses better and replied more appropriately.

Yes you should and if you want to stay then I think you should start now, not necessarily by responding to me because actually what would be really good would be to see you go much further back and address your initial response to Feminism 101 and explain that, explain the really ill thought out things that are more important within this community. I would like to see evidence of real consideration of people and what's really significant in the outside world rather then a response to the hardlining that's been happening with you because ultimately that's less important than the way people feel about your root responses to sexual and racial difference.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:38 / 22.06.07
Came for the Temple. Quelle surprise.

Frankly, I don't imagine somebody who expresses the belief based not in fact on personal experience, as he is now claiming, but on anecdotal evidence (I've heard more times than I care to remember that black people refuse to take certain jobs because they don't want to "whiten-up.") that black people are the authors of their own misfortune, and who then starts a self-pitying metaphor about lynching is likely to be able to manage to police standards of decent behaviour. It is almost unfair to expect him to be able to do so. However, there is a first time for everything.

Try posting something to both the Feminism 101 thread and the Ron Paul thread to the effect of, "I'm interested in reading as much supporting evidence as you can provide for your contentions in this thread" and see what happens. Will things be different for you if you feel you are presented with something?

You may feel, YO!, that demanding that people provide evidence that women do not claim all too often that they have been raped in order to gain power over men, as one hears about all the time, would be a great way for Claris Dancers to return to Feminism 101. I think that is a startlingly unpleasant thing to want to foist on Barbelith, in particular on survivors of sexual assault on Barbelith. There are some hoops that women don't actually have to jump through around here, just as we don't actually feel the need to prove that the Holocaust did in fact take place every single time we are confronted with a Holocaust denier.

To do that and then to call me "nasty" makes me feel rather as if down is up in YO!world.

So, anyway, we're back to the usual conundrum - somebody who makes racist and misogynistic statements, and then claims not to be in any way racist or misogynist, blah cloistered worldview blah oversensitive blah trickster figure fishcakes.

If we want to we can put ourselves through this over and over again - CD can lie low, change his name, come back with some more insights on the trouble with black people. Why not? The only likely downside is that the genuinely interesting, engaged and intelligent people who find something in Barbelith they do not find elsewhere will no longer find that, and will leave, or we will have to go through another will-sapping process like this one.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
23:04 / 22.06.07
Yeah, I pretty much agree that Haus is snarky and nasty in that thread. Don't really think it helped anyone much. Maybe he'll come along soon and give his reasons.

Maybe his reasons were that everything he typed in that post was 100% true? Just maybe? And that Claris Dancer had expressed the opinion that there is no real racist inequality in America, just black people not getting proper jobs because they don't want to stop talking in "ebonics". To me this opinion is on a par with Holocaust denial, and I think, Claris Dancer, you need to retract it if you want to stand a chance of being accepted as a functioning member of the board.
 
 
Quantum
23:06 / 22.06.07
I'd just like to say I applaud Anna D's posts.

Came for the Temple. Quelle surprise.

Maybe it's nearly time for a separate board, the Temple by another name. At this point I'm happy to start again elsewhere. Anyway threadrot, sorry, I'm off to bed.

In case lots of stuff happens overnight let me state for the record I support a ban, but I'd prefer Claris to say sorry and understand why, and leave voluntarily.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
23:07 / 22.06.07
I swear we came up with that Holocause denial comparison independently.
 
 
Quantum
23:11 / 22.06.07
It's like a weird anti-Godwin. G'night all.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:53 / 22.06.07
I swear we came up with that Holocause denial comparison independently

At what point did Qwik suggest that he wanted to see his politcal enemies, to the extent that he has them, be sent off to even the internet equivalent of a hard right facility? It genuinely pains me to go on about this, I'd really rather not, but accusing anyone of being a flag-waver for the Third Reich seems, unless they've actually come out and say so, like a step too far.

Later Edit by AG:(With hindsight, the reasoning behind this post may be slightly off. Please not to pay it too much attention)
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
00:07 / 23.06.07
I think you're missing the point of the comparision, at least for me.

It isn't a suggestion that CD's opinions make him a Nazi.

The point is that Holocaust denial is banned on the board because the community as a whole can't be expected to go through that or to treat it as a valid opinion that is worthy of serious discussion.

And I agree with Flyboy and Haus, the kind of stuff that CD has come out with is very similar on that basis.

Suggesting that women 'use' rape as a way of gaining power over men is not a line that has any place on this board. At all.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
00:08 / 23.06.07
(Sorry, but as an afterthought to that, Holocaust denial and Nazism are not exactly the same thing. We don't tolerate 'academic' or 'conspiracy theory' Holocaust denial either).
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
00:09 / 23.06.07
To me this opinion is on a par with Holocaust denial, and I think, Claris Dancer, you need to retract it if you want to stand a chance of being accepted as a functioning member of the board.

I'm not sure I'd put it on par with Holocaust denial (nor do I think many others would either, otherwise CD would have been gone immediately) but I do feel that it is the exact same kind of offensive idea, and agree that retracting the statement is a great step (possibly the only step) to take now.

There are some hoops that women don't actually have to jump through around here, just as we don't actually feel the need to prove that the Holocaust did in fact take place every single time we are confronted with a Holocaust denier.

Agreed. That particular example of tact and politeness may not be a good idea. Let's not make people prove the earth is spherical.

The only likely downside is that the genuinely interesting, engaged and intelligent people who find something in Barbelith they do not find elsewhere will no longer find that, and will leave, or we will have to go through another will-sapping process like this one.

I didn't find it will-sapping. I bet a bunch of other people didn't find it will-sapping. I wouldn't be surprised if only a minority of Barbelith found it will-sapping.

But your point stands. What's to keep CD from doing this a year from now, when we've all forgotten about this thread and his promise to keep quiet and think about what he posts in the future? The answer to that is, of course, not a damn thing. But at least no one will have to go through a "will-sapping" process like this, he'll just be shown the door no questions asked.
 
  

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