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The 'Ashley Treatment'

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
Quantum
10:07 / 20.03.07
That's a great piece, thanks!
 
 
Ex
10:51 / 20.03.07
That was very useful, thanks. Although one point:

Who of us, with full capacity to consent, would undergo the painful invasiveness of a full hysterectomy just to prevent cramps or as a prophylactic against rape's violations?

I lose around a day a month to cramps, and am sometimes immobilised waiting for the four hour mark to pass so I can take more painkillers. It's bearable because I know what it means, when it will end and return, and I'm able to regulate my own medication. As I understand it, it's more painful than some women's experience, but not out of the ordinary. I am planning not to have children, and I understand it's going to get worse as I age. So despite the anaesthetic risk, the pain, the recovery time and so forth, if there were any way I could have a hysterectomy I would seriously consider it. I'm already planning a minor surgical procedure to assure permanent contraception.

(I know this may sound ridiculous or even offensive - I have known several people who have had trouble conceiving and/or bearing children, and the contrast in our situations often strikes me painfully. I'm sorry if it's hurtful to anyone reading.)

Obviously, this isn't generalisable to the Ashley case. But the article seems to believe that nobody would ever voluntarily opt for a hysterectomy, and thus it must be unethical to impose one on somebody, which I think is hyperbole and step-jumping. I think her other examples were far stronger.

(This is raising some interesting questions for me as to what one's body is for, and whether parts of one body can be singled out and assigned a [culturally determined] 'purpose' and deemed 'unecessary' if they're not going to be used for that purpose. I don't appreciate the most obvious 'purpose' for my uterus, but if I were able to have a hysterectomy, I'd definitely look into how it links up to other systems in my body, particularly sexual response. I also I know that horrific things can happen when a functional or utilitarian view of women's bodies prevails, so I'm even hesitant about describing it in this way.)
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:38 / 20.03.07
(A little off topic but removing both ovaries can lead to a very increased risk of osteoporosis and other complications around oestrogen production. I suspect that's the real reason it's not really performed as a voluntary proceedure and also why, if a woman is below the usual age of menopause and has a hysterectomy she'll be given HRT.)
 
 
*
17:34 / 30.03.07
Interesting related post here:

The author wonders about those using the Ashley case to support better in-home care, while others are using the same case as evidence for the need for better care in institutions.

Yes, we do need to push, at every opportunity, for more and better in-home supports for people with disabilities of all ages.

But using this case to justify our position puts us on rather shaky ground.

One reason is that the same young girl can be -- and is being -- used to justify the opposite position.

On Friday, Turkey's Zaman newspaper reported that a Turkish family is considering the same treatment for a 13-year-old by who has cerebral palsy.

Füsun Evren said she was looking for a doctor to stunt the growth of her 42-pound son, Umut Mert, by having him castrated.

"I want him to stay as my little Mert," she said.

Sound familiar?

While one university professor pointed out that castration violates all religions, including Islam, the head of the Turkish Association for the Disabled, Zülfikar Akar, said: "These situations happen because care centers don't offer long-term care for people with disabilities."
 
 
*
15:13 / 18.06.07
Another interesting related post, and one that could equally go into the URGHFUCKHEADSICK thread. I think I'll be crosslinking it.

At the time of the initial publicity about growth attenuation, Ashley's parents wrote on their blog: "In our opinion only parents of special needs children are in a position to fully relate to this topic. Unless you are living the experience, you are speculating and you have no clue what it is like to be the bedridden child or their caregivers." I did live the experience. I lived it not as a parent or caregiver but as a bed-ridden growth-attenuated child.
My life story is the reverse of Ashley's. Like Ashley, I, too, have a static encephalopathy. Mine was caused by brain damage at the time of my breech birth. Like Ashley, I can't walk, talk, feed or care for myself. My motor skills are those of a 3-month-old. When I was 3, a doctor assessed me as severely retarded (that is, as having an IQ of less than 35) and I was admitted to a state institution called St. Nicholas Hospital in Melbourne, Australia. As the hospital didn't provide me with a wheelchair, I lay in bed or on the floor for most of the next 14 years. At the age of 12, I was relabeled as profoundly retarded (IQ less than 20) because I still hadn't learned to walk or talk. Like Ashley, I have experienced growth attenuation. I may be the only person on Earth who can say, "Been there. Done that. Didn't like it. Preferred to grow."
Unlike Ashley, my growth was "attenuated" not by medical intervention but by medical neglect. My growth stopped because I was starved. St. Nicholas offered little food and little time to eat it -- each staff member had 10 children with severe disabilities to feed in an hour. That was the roster set by the state and accepted by the medical profession. Consequently my growth stopped shortly after admission. When I turned 18, I weighed only 35 pounds. I hadn't developed breasts or menstruated. I was 42 inches tall.
My life changed when I was offered a means of communication. At the age of 16, I was taught to spell by pointing to letters on an alphabet board. Two years later, I used spelling to instruct the lawyers who fought the habeas corpus action that enabled me to leave the institution in which I'd lived for 14 years. In the ultimate Catch-22, the hospital doctors told the Supreme Court that my small stature was evidence of my profound mental retardation. I've learned the hard way that not everything doctors say should be taken at face value.
After I left the institution, an X-ray showed that I had a bone age of about 6, a growth delay almost unheard of in an 18-year-old in the developed world. I was not only tiny but lacked any secondary sexual characteristics (a significant difference from people with naturally small stature). I was a legal adult, but I couldn't see over a bar, much less convince anyone to serve me a drink. I didn't see small stature as desirable. My new doctors said that presumably I had the growth potential of a 6-year-old, so my new caregivers and I worked on increasing my size. My contribution was to eat everything I was offered. It worked. I started growing immediately, reaching a final height of 5 feet and weight of 120 pounds. That is, I grew 18 inches after the age of 18. Along the way I lost my milk teeth and reached puberty. At the age of 19, I attended school for the first time, eventually graduating from university with majors in philosophy of science and fine arts. ...
Many otherwise reasonable people think that growth attenuation was an appropriate treatment for Ashley. In an Op-Ed piece in The New York Times, for example, moral philosopher Peter Singer wrote: " ... there is the issue of treating Ashley with dignity. ... But why should dignity always go together with species membership, no matter what the characteristics of the individual may be? ... Lofty talk about human dignity should not stand in the way of children like her getting the treatment that is best both for them and their families." Ironically, I'm a friend of Peter's, and I've discussed ethics and disability with him previously. Despite this, he obviously didn't call me to mind when he wrote about Ashley. This may be because Ashley is described as having static encephalopathy, a rather uncommon name for a rather common condition. Static encephalopathy just means "brain damage which isn't going to get worse." It's occasionally used as a euphemism for brain damage caused by maternal intoxication, but the most common form of the condition is cerebral palsy unrelated to maternal intoxication. Ashley and I both have cerebral palsy. Ashley's doctors may have used the term static encephalopathy to avoid the outcry that would have followed if people realized that it was being suggested that girls with cerebral palsy should have surgery to stunt their growth and prevent puberty. When Singer wrote that, "Ashley is 9, but her mental age has never progressed beyond that of a 3-month-old. She cannot walk, talk, hold a toy or change her position in bed. Her parents are not sure she recognizes them. She is expected to have a normal lifespan, but her mental condition will never improve," he has accepted the doctors' eyeball assessment of Ashley without asking the obvious questions. What was their assessment based on? Has Ashley ever been offered a way of showing that she knows more than a 3-month-old baby?
Only someone like me who has lain in a cot year after year hoping that someone would give her a chance can know the horror of being treated as if you were totally without conscious thought. Given that Ashley's surgery is irreversible, I can only offer sympathy to her and her parents. For her sake, I hope she does not understand what has happened to her; but I'm afraid she probably does. As one who knows what it's like to be infantilized because I was the size of a 4-year-old at age 18, I don't recommend it. My ongoing concern is the readiness with which Ashley's parents, doctors and most commentators assumed they could make an accurate estimation of the understanding of a child without speech who has severely restricted movement. Any assessment of intelligence that relies on speech and motor skills cannot conceivably be accurate because the child doesn't have any of the skills required to undertake testing. To equate intelligence with motor skills is as absurd as equating it with height. The only possible way to find out how much a child who cannot talk actually understands is to develop an alternative means of communication for that child.
An entire new discipline of non-speech communication has developed since I was born in 1961, and there are now literally hundreds of non-speech communication strategies available. Once communication is established, education and assessment can follow, in the usual way. No child should be presumed to be profoundly retarded because she can't talk.
 
 
Chiropteran
13:17 / 19.06.07
I was just coming to post that, myself.

All I can say is NEVER fucking assume that another human being can't think or feel, regardless of their current appearance.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:35 / 19.06.07
Capital letters and swearing aside, what are our criteria here, then? What is our standard for identifying sentience or otherwise? (And it's worth noting that I don't think anyone has suggested that Ashley can't _feel_, Chiropteran, rather than process and understand feelings. Perhaps you could quote that bit of the thread?) I suppose I'm thinking of whales and dolphins here, along with primates of various stripes. They don't have a form of communication which involves speech, and there is much debate about how genuinely sentient or sapient they are. And from there, what about cats, dogs, herd animals, fish... at every point, we are making assumptions based on our scientific understanding of how brains work about how intelligent and how sensitive these creatures all are. Our science, of course, is highly subjective, and may well neglect thought processes created by other means, such as vegetable sentience.

So, putting the broad brush down for a second, what precisely are the conditions we are seeking to impose here? Should we never allow one person to select a treatment for another person who is believed not to be able to choose or refuse the treatment themselves, on the grounds that they might, in fact, be able to communicate their own feelings about that treatment in a manner as yet undiscovered? What constitutes due diligence here?
 
 
Chiropteran
13:56 / 19.06.07
(And it's worth noting that I don't think anyone has suggested that Ashley can't _feel_, Chiropteran, rather than process and understand feelings. Perhaps you could quote that bit of the thread?)

My broadly-brushed post was not a considered statement - it was a visceral response to the (possible) implications (for Ashley) raised by Anne McDonald's account of her own experiences, and really wasn't appropriate to post in the Headshop. I've mostly avoided this thread because the topic is a very emotional one for me, and the thread will probably benefit from me continuing to avoid it in the future. Apologies.
 
 
*
14:34 / 19.06.07
If no potentially productive effort has been made to ascertain that Ashley can't communicate through something like an alphabet board, I'd say that doctors and her parents may be basing decisions about her medical care on an extreme misapprehension of her real situation. And unfortunately it's not as easy as showing her a keyboard and saying "No? Well alright then." She's nine, and it's possible that no one has made an effort before. An effort that I'd regard as potentially productive requires someone to take a couple of hours with her a day to help her learn to use an assistive device over the course of several months. If there's any progress, efforts should be continued, and a psychological assessment may follow; if there's no progress, then maybe there will be a little bit more grounds for the doctors' existing assessment. My concern is that I have yet to hear of anyone trying this, and as the courts eventually ruled in Anne MacDonald's case in Australia (not necessarily having any bearing on this one in the US, but there you go), without communication, no psychological assessment is possible. If they haven't made an effort to establish communication by alternate means, the assessment to this point is based on guesswork and the assumption that Ashley's mobility impairment is accompanied by similar mental impairment.
 
 
*
14:42 / 19.06.07
Chiropteran, your visceral response is important here. Thank you for posting. When you feel able to continue the discussion, I hope you will feel free to do so, and when you need to take care of yourself by avoiding it I hope you will feel free to do that too. Those of us who have the privilege of talking about this in theoretical terms can not afford to forget the people it actually happens to and the serious implications this has for anyone with impairments that make them dependent on others.
 
 
Chiropteran
14:49 / 19.06.07
Thank you.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:26 / 19.06.07
As a moderator of the Head Shop, I would like generally to ameliorate the effect of contributions that make people feel unable or unwilling to contribute. These include responses that compare other participants in the thread to child murderers and suggest that they are racists, both of which approaches have so far been justified by personal experience.


Personal experience is an important and valuable contribution to discussion, and both it and the feelings it may occasion should be respected, but it is not a carte blanche. If there is a feeling that it should be, I would like to take it up in the Policy rather than here.

In the case of Chiropteran's response, it seems a perfectly fair comment, visceral or no, but one which would require a bit of unpacking to add value to the ongoing discussion. As it has now been established, it was a reaction not to the discussion as a whole but to a single post within that discussion. It may be valuably taken further from there, and Chiropteran is of course free to contribute to that further discussion as he or she sees fit and feels able.

Now, mod hat off. I think this is key, Zippid:

My concern is that I have yet to hear of anyone trying this

I think it would be a very good start to see if one can ascertain whether non-vocal communication was attempted in this case. If not, we may well see this as an egregious oversight, and one which should be corrected at once, if only to provide Ashley with a way to express her fury at not having been consulted. However, my question stands - at what point can the debt to the discernment of cognitive function stand? There are people who are seen as perfectly functional who do not communicate using writing, some of whom it might be reasonable to think cannot use writing. Am I being very dim in not being able to comprehend immediately whether speech and writing are a complete set of options for identifying sapience? To put it another way, at what point is the assessment, which we are currently assuming took place without this intermediate attempt at written communication, sufficiently rather than a little more grounded?
 
 
*
16:12 / 19.06.07
I think when discussing this abstractly, it's important to remember that we are abstractly discussing things that happen to real humans, many of whom are absolutely aware of their experiences as suffering and lack of choice. Our abstract discussion of such experiences is likely to appear inhumane, even if we have the most compassionate intentions. Further, abstract theorizing taken to the wrong conclusion can have extremely inhumane results for some people, about which it's unreasonable not to be angry. So, yeah, I think discussion should go deeper than the anger, but I appreciate Chiropteran's decision to give voice to that; I think it's helpful in making others who are personally invested in situations like this feel that their perspectives are to be valued and considered in this discussion. I hope others posting in this thread who feel targeted by that anger are willing to recognize its origins. No one here, based on the things they've posted in this thread, is a child murderer, and I don't think anything Chiropteran said suggested that they were—unless I've forgotten something from earlier in the thread. If someone feels compared to a child murderer, they are deserving of compassion also, and I hope that gaining an understanding of how intensely painful this argument can be for many people is a help to them.

To the point: I think it's important to start from the presumption that a person with severe mobility impairment is mentally capable. It's a less complicated matter to assess how a person is impaired in terms of mobility, bearing in mind that mobility may be more or less impaired in certain circumstances due to fatigue or other changing physical circumstances. Any form of assisted communication will have to take the person's mobility impairment into account. Anne was able to point at an alphabet board with the aid of her attendant supporting her elbow; some people need symbol boards rather than spelling boards; someone with more severe mobility impairment might require an eye-tracking device rather than something they must operate with hands. These don't depend on the ability to write sentences, necessarily. At first it might just be to make clear that the selection of letters or symbols is intentional—and it might take awhile to establish this, but I think there's a period of time (and I don't know what it is, not having done work in this area) during which it would be reasonable to say that one could see the intentionality of symbol selection or the lack of same, and beyond this point it would be reasonable to say the attempt was made and there is no possibility of developing communication with that form of assistance.

What I think I understand you getting at, Haus, and where I get lost, is in the circumstance where someone is capable of comprehending one's situation and making decisions about it, but unable to communicate using any form of assistive device, because while the understanding is there the capacity for communicating understanding simply isn't. I don't know what to do with that. I have a reflexive horror of being in that situation myself, and it's very difficult for me to think past it. What I find hardest to come to grips with is the fact that at this point we have no way to know if that has in fact ever happened. Some philosophers and neurolinguists would suggest that without the capacity for symbolic language in any form, a person cannot have the ability to understand their situation and make decisions about it, and as comforting as it would be for me to believe that I can't be sure.
 
 
*
16:23 / 19.06.07
One thing that I think might be useful is to find out from Anne's assistant what cues made her realize that Anne had the ability to communicate if allowed access to the tools. Based on Anne's account of her time in the institution, I suspect that anyone can be trained to recognize these cues, and that in fact people are trained not to recognize them by doctors repeatedly telling them that the people with the impairments are not actually capable of understanding even though at times their supposedly unconscious reflexes may make them seem so.

(This is not, by the way, to state that this is true of people who are actually severely brain damaged and in a vegetative state, as was determined to be true in the Terri Schiavo case. If my understanding of neuroscience is accurate, I believe that lack of certain brainwaves is a reliable indicator of lack of conscious awareness; if I'm wrong, someone please correct me.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:53 / 19.06.07
No one here, based on the things they've posted in this thread, is a child murderer, and I don't think anything Chiropteran said suggested that they were—unless I've forgotten something from earlier in the thread.

Nataraja did this, and excused comparisons of other members of Barbelith to child murderers on the grounds of emotional involvement. It was not something that I felt was conducive to the good conduct of the thread, nor something which was terribly useful in a therapeutic context.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:24 / 19.06.07
Well, it's entirely possible now to use an MRI to look inside someone's skull and ascertain, for example, how much living brain tissue is in there; it's also possible to make some assessment of a person's general mental capacity from an electroencephalogram. (To give you some idea of the sensitivity of such tests, a few years back I got scolded by the technician administering my EEG because I'd missed breakfast and she could tell from the screen).

I think we're all flying blind a bit here because it's non-obvious exactly what tests may or may not have been administered to Ashley or Anne. (However, it seems reasonable to assume that an institution which starves the children in its supposed care to the point where they cannot grow or attain puberty is unlikely to provide EEGs.)
 
 
*
03:17 / 08.10.07
The mother of a severely disabled child said yesterday that she would "move heaven and earth" to get her daughter the surgery that has stopped an American girl from growing up.

Please note there is nothing in the article except the mother's assertion to indicate any cognitive disability in this young lady. She has cerebral palsy. People with CP, although often assumed to have cognitive impairments because of impairments in speech and movement, have the same spread of intellectual abilities as the general population.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:06 / 08.10.07
Well, I don't think Doctors would be willing to do this surgery just because the Mum said she wanted it.
 
 
*
13:53 / 08.10.07
I don't think anywhere in the article does it say they are, actually, which could be the source of the bile about "armchair ethicists."
 
 
HCE
14:19 / 08.10.07
I wonder what, if anything, is missing from that article. The mother seems pretty involved in her child's care -- how has she avoided learning that CP isn't equivalent to retardation? Why does she think her daughter wouldn't 'understand' menstruation?
 
 
Pingle!Pop
16:41 / 08.10.07
While the point of view put forward by the mother makes me feel rather icky if it's been reported accurately in that article, I'm not sure it necessarily follows that she's avoided learning that CP isn't equivalent to retardation. It may be that she's perfectly aware of this, but that it isn't the case for her daughter Katie - while it isn't equivalent, cerebral palsy has high rates of various co-morbidities which may include mental retardation, and this may include Katie.

This may well not be the case - that article seems to me pretty uncritical of the mother's position and so I'm inclined to think that if they did have solid evidence of retardation they'd likely have reported it - but I'd like to know more before stating that she's made up her own conclusions.

(I do, though, find the invocation of "armchair ethicists" as mentioned by Zippy a bit disingenuous in its failure to acknowledge that many of those "ethicists" were, in fact, people who'd been in similar positions not to Ashley's parents, but to Ashley herself.)
 
 
Olulabelle
18:13 / 08.10.07
I saw the mother being interviewed on television and she said that Katy was, "never going to get married so she would never have children". Which she obviously knew from seeing into the future.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:49 / 08.10.07
Question. This story appears in the Telegraph. What do you think the slant of the Telegraph will be to a story about a working-class woman, the partner of whom is not her daughter's father (why was it important for them to mention that?), who wishes to sterilise her daughter, who has problems of an uncertain nature and degree, and believes that she is being prevented from doing so by the medical establishment?
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:56 / 08.10.07
And also the only reason for a woman to go through with full development into an adult: marrying and having babies...
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:57 / 08.10.07
Previous post in response to Olulabelle's post (damn you Haus for typing faster than me)
 
 
Pingle!Pop
20:25 / 08.10.07
True, the story is in the Telegraph, and the Telegraph is not known for its sympathetic stance towards working-class women, women partnered with men who are not their children's biological fathers and etc.

On the other hand, the article is mostly composed of quotes from the mother and please-note-not-*real*-father, with not a single critical quote - something which surely couldn't be too difficult to find. The slant of the non-quoted elements in the article is a bit ambiguous, but I think it reads just as easily, if not more so, as sympathetic to the mother as not.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
20:34 / 08.10.07
Haus, i really don't know where the fuck you get some of your ideas about class from. Class is a relative concept. It's about power and privilege. In this situation, the mother and the medical establishment have all the power and privilege. The child has none.

The agenda of the Telegraph is neither here nor there. For the sake of balance, here are the reports of the same story from the Times , the Guardian and the BBC. Reading all of them, the Telegraph (as would be expected of a right wing paper which has a history of being explictly pro-eugenicist) seems to be the most pro the "treatment". Even if it was anti the treatment for classist reasons, that in no way whatsoever invalidates being against the treatment - there are uncountable reasons of people being against something bad for reasons that are also bad.

Of course marriage (or any sexual relationship) and children are not the only point to adulthood or the only reasons for a woman to want to keep her bodily integrety. The point here is not whether Katie Thorpe will ever have or want to have sex or children. The point is this is the violation of a young woman's bodily integrity without her consent. I really don't understand why people can't see that.

Having said that, i'm really not sure i'm up to discussing this on a Barbelith intellectual level - hell, i wasn't up to it the first time, simply because the emotion and personal investment in this were too overwhelming (and this time it's, in a literal if not a figurative sense, a lot closer to home) - in fact, my simultaneous need and inability to respond to this thread was the reason i pretty much left Barbelith until i decided to give it a try again a couple of weeks ago. Maybe i just have to accept that my disability means i am just not, and never will be, "impartial" enough for this type of community...
 
 
Olulabelle
20:46 / 08.10.07
The point here is not whether Katie Thorpe will ever have or want to have sex or children. The point is this is the violation of a young woman's bodily integrity without her consent. I really don't understand why people can't see that.

I certainly see that. I was quoting what the mother said mainly to show that she didn't seem to have too much concern for whether Katie could decide for herself or not.
 
 
diz
21:14 / 08.10.07
The point here is not whether Katie Thorpe will ever have or want to have sex or children. The point is this is the violation of a young woman's bodily integrity without her consent. I really don't understand why people can't see that.

The point is that she does not appear to be able to meaningfully understand the situation she is in, nor would she be capable of expressing an opinion one way or the other if she were to understand. As such, she has to be understood as having no meaningful opinion or preferences on the subject, perhaps on any subject.

Maybe i just have to accept that my disability means i am just not, and never will be, "impartial" enough for this type of community.

I think everyone understands that your disability informs your position, and I at least wouldn't expect it to be otherwise. However, at the same time, you have to make your own decisions about whether or not whatever you're getting out of this discussion is worth whatever emotional distress you might feel at encountering strenuous objections to positions which are so deeply held for you.
 
 
*
02:36 / 09.10.07
Haus, if you're indicating that the article in the Telegraph will naturally be biased against the mother for reasons of class, gender, and sexual behavior, as it seems you are, that may be true. But it hasn't prevented them printing an article where not one comment against the treatment is included. If there's bias in this particular article, it doesn't seem to me to be against the mother. Maybe, as Hydra suggests, there's an outweighing bias against the possibility that the young woman has a position, or that it could differ from the mother's. Or maybe the Telegraph is clever enough to know that disguising their bias against Ms Thorpe as bias for her will cause some readers to be biased against her, but that seems unlikely. I think it's more likely that the Telegraph exaggerated all around to make the story more dramatic; the other articles were careful to include Ms. Thorpe's disclaimers that she wasn't taking a blanket advocacy position.

At any rate, my apologies for having linked to that article rather than another; it was the first one I came across and I felt pressed for time.

I note that none of the other articles indicate that there is a medical reason to believe that Katie has a cognitive disability, either. This would surely not be too difficult to come by, if it's there. Aren't the opinions and desires of the 14 year old in question also important, if she's able to make an informed consent? I like Scope's position that Katie should get her own legal representation, someone who is experienced in working with disabled children who don't use speech to communicate.
 
 
HCE
03:13 / 09.10.07
The point is this is the violation of a young woman's bodily integrity without her consent. I really don't understand why people can't see that.

I don't accept that as the one and only point. It's not that I "can't see" that, it's that I don't agree that's a meaningful representation of what's happening. I read all of the articles linked to and was not able to determine from any of them what attempts had or had not been made to provide communication methods for her that didn't involve speaking or writing. I think that if all known methods of communicating with her have been exhausted then the mother should be able to make the decision that she thinks is in the best interest of her child, within some limits, though I don't know where I'd draw a hard, bright line separating ok from not ok. Getting her hair done at a salon, ok. Starving her to death, not ok. A variety of medical treatments, it depends.

It seems you take issue not only with the procedure itself, but with the very concept of affecting a human body without that person's consent. I'm not sure what you would consider violation of bodily integrity -- would it include giving her painkillers to dull the pain of cramps, inserting tampons, piercing her ears, filling cavities? What you're proposing is not immediately evident from what you posted.

Upthread, Haus was asking what guidelines for due diligence might look like -- how a society conceives of having tried hard enough to accommodate somebody who doesn't communicate in the usual ways. At what point do we decide that somebody is not communicating because she can't, rather than because we haven't done enough to help? Zippid was suggesting some guidelines. I would further suggest that any guidelines should be open to ongoing review, to keep up with new developments -- if a technique or piece of equipment is produced, I think it would be sensible to include it in any battery of communication methods attempted.

To address what you described as overwhelming emotion: if your position is X, fine, that's your position, but people who don't agree are going to present their positions as well. This thread is probably not an ideal place for you to express your frustrations around this very affecting issue, because one thing that will definitely not happen is that this thread will not end with everybody agreeing with you. I don't know why you mention that you might not be impartial enough when nobody has said that there is some minimum degree of impartiality required. In fact, this comment, made specifically with mod hat on, seems to indicate that partial comments can provide a useful starting point for further discussion:

In the case of Chiropteran's response, it seems a perfectly fair comment, visceral or no, but one which would require a bit of unpacking to add value to the ongoing discussion. As it has now been established, it was a reaction not to the discussion as a whole but to a single post within that discussion. It may be valuably taken further from there, and Chiropteran is of course free to contribute to that further discussion as he or she sees fit and feels able.

That seems to me to indicate that it is not the emotional intensity felt by an individual that determines whether a given contribution will be appropriate here, but rather how it is presented and developed. Your comment here: i really don't know where the fuck you get some of your ideas about class from. Class is a relative concept. It's about power and privilege. In this situation, the mother and the medical establishment have all the power and privilege. The child has none implies that Haus has said a number of things about class that he hasn't (apologies to both of you if I missed something -- I did read back over the thread, and found him twice asking whether class is a factor in the response to the mothers of children in question, and once stating that class is not, in the UK, always tied to wealth). Such an approach is unlikely to further discussion in a way that benefits everyone's understanding of this issue.
 
 
HCE
03:44 / 09.10.07
Richard Parnell, head of research at Scope, yesterday called for Katie Thorpe to have separate legal representation.

"As soon as this case is referred to court the official solicitor will act in the best interests of the child," he said. "But it [should] not be about the best interests of the child but about what she wants. There ought to be an advocate who can find out what she wants. It's about her human rights and that's what's missing.

"We are not anti-parent. We understand they have a very tough job to do. But maybe there are cases where the children's rights don't coincide with the parents' interests. This is a very, very grey area."


Zippid, that sounds to me a little different from your description of someone who is experienced in working with disabled children who don't use speech to communicate. Parnell doesn't suggest that Katie definitely can use some non-speech-based method to communicate, and Scope or some other advocate can come in and communicate with Katie where Alison hasn't been able to. If there's somebody at Scope who can communicate with Katie, perhaps that person could work with Alison to teach her how to communicate with her daughter? I think I understand your impulse to provide some extra legal protection for people in Katie's situation, but I worry that in the situation you describe, the decision making would merely be transferred from Alison to somebody else who doesn't even know Katie. Working with the parent seems more workable to me than setting a parent's responsibilities and a child's desires, which may or may not be knowable, in opposition to one another.
 
 
HCE
04:05 / 09.10.07
[Side note: Hydra, there's nothing bad or wrong about not feeling able to contribute to a thread, or even to Barbelith as a whole, because it's too upsetting or complicated. I felt that way during the shadowsax debacle and quit for some months because of it, and I don't recall anybody saying anything nasty to me about my decision to leave or to return.]
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:16 / 09.10.07
I asked a question, Hydra. I did not make a statement. You made assumptions about what I meant. So, wherever the fuck I get my ideas about class remains uncertain, and apparently unconsidered.

For the record, I don't think your disability itself is the problem here - it is the sense of entitlement you feel it gives you to liken other people to child murderers or, as in this case, to hare off down Abuse Lane if people are not agreeing with you. I don't think either of those positions is necessary for a passionate response.

On preview, what kangarou boxeur said, really.
 
 
Ex
07:21 / 09.10.07
What do you think the slant of the Telegraph will be to a story about a working-class woman, the partner of whom is not her daughter's father (why was it important for them to mention that?), who wishes to sterilise her daughter, who has problems of an uncertain nature and degree, and believes that she is being prevented from doing so by the medical establishment?

I read Haus completely differently here, at least for that last sentence - that The Telegraph may in fact be backing the mother in this case because it fits with a common pattern in their news covergae, lately.
Anti-medical-establishment headlining stories have been running a lot recently (post-code lottery medical funding - just this morning the headline on one of the main papers was about inadequate osteoporosis treatment funding). It's inconsistent, yes, and they swing wildly between 'Doctors play God!' and treating medicine as though it has all the solutions. But 'plucky parent against faceless doctors', particularly since the suggested connection between autism and multiple vaccination, has been a big seller.

This staged confrontation between two apparently mismatched powers (Loving Mother versus Establishment) then obscures other less laudable power imbalances (mother against dauther when daughter has trouble communicating, everybody against working class and/or disabled parents etc.).

That may not be what Haus had in mind either, though.
 
  

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