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The 'Ashley Treatment'

 
  

Page: 123(4)

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:33 / 09.10.07
I think it's complicated. Why, for example, is it reported that her partner is not the father? Is it to highlight her irresponsibility (to a Telegraph audience)? Or is it to point out that, since in Telegraphland fathers are biological fathers, her partner might leave her to look after her children alone?

Also of note are her quotes. Usually, sub-editors will "tidy" verbatim quotes, to make people speak grammatically, remove repeated prepositions and so on. This has not apparently been done in quotation such as:

I feel from Katie's point of view the discomfort, the stomach pains, the sheer nuisance of having periods, Katie won't understand that.

and

And if by having a hysterectomy or moving things forward in that way, if that gives Katie a greater chance of life and enjoying her life, then I will move heaven and earth to actually get that for Katie.

This could just be journalistic corner-cutting - this appears to be a transcript of the Today interview, and verbatim quoting means you don't have to contact the parties involved to make sure you are not accused of misquotation later. It could also aim to make her sound clumsy or thoughtless. These are questions.

More broadly, I'm interested in the assumptions being made here more generally. Zippid, having read these four news articles, you note that none of them present medical evidence that Katie Thorpe has a cognitive disability. Is it a safe assumption that in 14 years her mother has never thought to explore the possibility that she might or might have a cognitive impairment along with her cerebral palsy? Would the assumption be more or less safe if we did not know that she was from Billericay, Essex, or that her live-in partner was a floor fitter?

Incidentally, on:

I like Scope's position that Katie should get her own legal representation

In the interests of fairness, it's worth mentioning that this position is expressed by Alison Thorpe's partner at the bottom of the Telegraph piece:

Alison will have to go to court. And that is right. Katie must have a voice too and independent legal representation. But we just know it would make her life so much better.

So, what's different? Katie Thorpe is older, and the mastectomy and hormone treatment are not relevant or being considered. There is an expectation that it will be resolved through the courts and not through a medical ethics committee. The procedure would, I imagine, be performed by the National Health Service rather than by a private medical facility. Anything else? Does anyone who opposed the Ashley procedure think that this one is justifiable, or indeed vice versa?
 
 
*
00:40 / 10.10.07
Actually, Haus, I'm kind of pissed off right now because of what you said to Hydra back there. You've stated an interpretation of hir feelings as if it were a fact, something you have repeatedly criticized other people for doing—something you criticize Hydra for doing in that very post. You have never accused me of feeling entitled because of my queerness or because of my transness, although I have certainly made angry and ill-considered remarks in response to situations and statements that would not have bothered me as much were I not queer and trans.

To respond to your direct address—no, I can't assume that Ms. Thorpe has never investigated Katie's cognitive abilities. Given that there is no reference to any tests in that regard, I can't assume that she has, either. It is unfortunately common for doctors and parents to make unfounded assumptions about the cognitive ability of a person who cannot speak, and omit tests that could help to establish if and to what degree there is an impairment in cognitive abilities. Even when tests are used, they are often misinterpreted, but often if speech isn't present and a person's mobility is too limited to use a communication aid, flawed tests are the best we can do and I'm resigned to that. In the absence of even this evidence, if it comes to a choice between acting as if I know for a fact that a person has a cognitive impairment, and acting as if they may not be cognitively impaired, I choose the latter. This seems to me to be supportive of people's basic rights in a way that the former option is not.

It means nothing to me where Ms Thorpe lives because I've never heard of Billericay and have no automatic association with Essex. I've known two people who install flooring for a living; one has an professional degree in a medical subfield, and the other is admirably self-educated. I would not suspect that either one of them might make hasty decisions about a hypothetical disabled child's cognition if it weren't for one thing: I know that it is surprisingly easy for anyone to do that if the child can't use speech to correct the misperception. Formal education does not, in my experience, make someone less likely to make and act on unfounded assumptions about other people's intellectual capacities—if anything, quite the opposite.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:27 / 10.10.07
You have never accused me of feeling entitled because of my queerness or because of my transness, although I have certainly made angry and ill-considered remarks in response to situations and statements that would not have bothered me as much were I not queer and trans.

Well, I could, if you'd like, but right now it's not very relevant. Natarajah/Hydra specifically identified his disability as the thing that impelled and allowed him to do that.

Maybe i just have to accept that my disability means i am just not, and never will be, "impartial" enough for this type of community...

I would rather not deny this belief of his, but I don't think it functions in the way that he believes it does. As I've said, I don't think you have to be impartial to work here, at all - I don't think any of us is entirely impartial about any position we care about enough to talk over. However, a degree of belief in the good faith of one's interlocutors, until that belief is shown to be unrealistic, is necessary, I think, and impartiality is not a necessity to have that. And, honestly, there is nothing really disability-related to Nataraja/Hydra telling me that I have no idea what class means, and providing an explanation actually at some degree of variance from the last time he did that, on page one of this thread.

So, I imagine that in the past when you have made posts that you believe were angry or ill-considerd, for reasons which you believe have to do with the relationship between the subject matter and subjects close to your heart, you may or may not have been pulled up for having made them. However, it seems fairly clear from your account that, although you might have felt that the response was at the moment of posting appropriate, you subsequently concluded that you were not entitled to expect these posts to be treated as if they were not angry or ill-considered.

Natarajah/Hydra appears to want something that, as Kangarou Boxeur points out, probably can't be promised - that Barbelith will agree with him or be persuaded to agree with him on an issue about which he feels passionate. The fact that we cannot promise that, however, does not provide an entitlement for the disappointed party to pop up and call us wankers every so often. Partiality is a useful thing to bring to the table, but it is not a carte blanche. This has already been said, though.

I would not suspect that either one of them might make hasty decisions about a hypothetical disabled child's cognition if it weren't for one thing: I know that it is surprisingly easy for anyone to do that if the child can't use speech to correct the misperception. Formal education does not, in my experience, make someone less likely to make and act on unfounded assumptions about other people's intellectual capacities—if anything, quite the opposite.

OK. So why, for example, did you not note that Peter Reynolds spoke for the case going to court, for example, while approving of the same suggestion when it came from somebody outside the family? Do you feel that the proposal from Scope was manifestly different?

Something is going on here; I do not wish to make guesses about what it is, but you seem not to be giving the parents of Katie Thorpe even the breaks provided by the facts of the case as recorded. By the same token, to assume that no effort has been made to communicate with her over the last fourteen years and that there is no co-morbidity affecting cognitive function based only on the fact that no such co-morbidity and no such efforts are recorded in the reportage from the British press, which appear to be drawing from the same limited sources of information for their stories, may be correct but may even if correct not be the right thing to do. The reportage does say that Katie Thorpe is believe to understand little of what is said to her - which seems to me already to be a different _level_ of cognitive function than that assumed for Ashley, to start with. That is of interest, but it hasn't really been picked up on - does it make a difference? Or are we working on the assumption that her actual ability to understand may so far outstrip this assessment that it is not material?

So:

In the absence of even this evidence, if it comes to a choice between acting as if I know for a fact that a person has a cognitive impairment, and acting as if they may not be cognitively impaired, I choose the latter. This seems to me to be supportive of people's basic rights in a way that the former option is not.

That's fine, but it's not, I think, what you are doing. What you are doing, I think, is making a decision about what efforts this person's mother, her partner and the care apparatus around them have made to establish whether or not Katie Thorpe has a cognitive impairment, and acting on that. I believe there to be a distinct possibility that to do so is not fair to these parties.
 
 
HCE
15:02 / 10.10.07
But why is that fine? In the absence of even this evidence, if it comes to a choice between acting as if I know for a fact that a person has a cognitive impairment, and acting as if they may not be cognitively impaired, I choose the latter. The language here seems to me to obscure what "acting" refers to. It's not just the choice an uninvolved individual makes about how to perceive this case or the larger or issue, because who cares what we think?

Right now, we all seem to agree that if there are resources available to help Katie communicate, those should be utilized. Peter, as noted upthread, agrees that Katie should have independent representation (and incidentally, Alison and Peter have names, perhaps we could use them), and given that Alison is quoted as saying she would "move heaven and earth" to improve her daughter's quality of life, presumably the prospect of an expert from Scope coming in and teaching her to communicate with her daughter would not make her recoil with horror.

I understand that you want to stress that spoken and written communication are so highly valued in our society that sometimes even the best-educated and best-intentioned people can fail to accept or perceive signs of cognition in their absence. It's a very important point to bear in mind when thinking about how to make the most current research and best practices widely available, and how to set up laws that deal with medical procedures that do no address a specific illness.

However, no matter whether Katie is treated or left untreated, a choice is being made, and when you say that you choose to act as if she may not be cognitively impaired, there is an implication there for who gets to make the choice about her treatment. The implication is that choice should be removed from Alison and given to the courts. If Alison had left Katie to starve in an institution, I could see where you were coming from. If she refused to seek medical treatment or listen to advocates and what they have to say, I could where you're coming from. But neither she nor Peter has done that, so I don't understand why you are treating them as though they're unfit to make this choice.
 
 
*
18:31 / 10.10.07
I'd like to know where I've done that, Haus and kangourou. My intention in posting this case was to continue following cases of body modification of children and teens with disabilities by their parents, and point out that the available coverage doesn't indicate whether Katie actually has a cognitive impairment--something which doesn't seem to be held to be as important to the journalists covering the situation as, say, the marriage status of Katie's parents or the support of the resident gynecologist. Alison and Peter say that she won't be able to understand her menstruation, but I don't know what that means, because the articles don't make it clear whether that's the result of a cognitive impairment and if so, what kind and to what extent. Why, in the press coverage of this case, is the extent of Katie's ability to make her own decision, or even understand the decision being made on her behalf, not considered important enough to discuss? No matter who is making the assessment of Katie's ability to comprehend, whether a doctor, Katie's best friend, her mother, or the journalists covering the situation, "acting as if" Katie may be capable of understanding to me means questioning that assessment until it's established to the extent of present ability to do so. Because while Alison and Peter can defend themselves from the egregious misrepresentations they may be subject to in the popular media, Katie can't. It's worrying that the Telegraph is, as you have shown, Haus, playing up Alison and Peter's class and partner situation in order to discredit them. However, the media may also be doing the same thing to Katie with regard to her disability, with much more severe effects upon her. It's therefore more worrying to me that Katie could be misrepresented, since this would impinge on her ability to make choices about her own body in a way that she currently has no defense against, than that Alison and Peter may be misrepresented.

I would like to see it established that efforts have been made and are being made to include Katie in her own care to the extent that she is able to take part. She may have a co-morbid learning disability or cognitive impairment, in which case her inclusion in her care will be limited--but it should be limited appropriately to her abilities. Comprehension, like choice, is not an on-off switch; it's a continuum.

Haus, the reason I'm angry about what you said to Hydra is because it invokes a dangerous precedent. It may be appropriate to take issue with hir behaviour, but attributing it to a feeling of entitlement derived from a social disadvantage is like telling women who say ill-considered things in response to sexism that they felt "entitled" to do so because they are women. Often one says ill-considered things not because of a feeling of entitlement, but in despite of a feeling of lack of entitlement. In short, you have, although not in so many words, accused Hydra of "playing the disability card." That's as problematic as any such accusation.

OK. So why, for example, did you not note that Peter Reynolds spoke for the case going to court, for example, while approving of the same suggestion when it came from somebody otuside the family? Do you feel that the proposal from Scope was manifestly different?

No. I forgot where I had seen it first. I was careless, and I apologize, particularly in light of the fact that that contributed to mischaracterization of Peter Reynolds and Alison Thorpe.

I don't see Alison and Peter as less fit than any other parents to make this choice for their 14 year old daughter. I also don't see Katie as less fit or less able to have input into this decision than any other couple's 14 year old daughter, because I haven't seen it established or even questioned whether she is or not. The press seems to think that having CP and not being able to talk is good enough.

At any rate, Alison and Peter seem favorable to Katie having independent representation, so one hopes there will be a fair decision one way or the other. Then the question becomes why does the press see fit to cover this story halfway, when it is better that either they describe the efforts that have been made to include Katie in the decision-making process to an appropriate extent, or if they're going to leave that vital piece of information out, not to cover it at all. The former would be useful because it's instructive, and could even serve as a model. Without that information, the story encourages the general public to assume that people who can't speak can't comprehend, an alarming trend that results in institutionalized medical abuse for some people with disabilities--not just allowing them to starve, but a number of more subtle but also horrible forms of abuse that occur when people are treated as automatons. It had been better not to cover the story at all, since if everything is being conducted as it should be, it's no more news than, say, a custody case.
 
 
HCE
02:23 / 11.10.07
I tried to explain in my last paragraph where you did that, but maybe I can put it a different way and see if I can make myself a little more clear. Possibly I have misunderstood you and you can show me where that happened.

"acting as if" Katie may be capable of understanding to me means questioning that assessment until it's established to the extent of present ability to do so.

Ok. How is this questioning going to take place? Who is going to do it? Absolutely not the parents, although why exactly that is remains unclear to me. Richard Parnell is quoted as saying, "But it [should] not be about the best interests of the child but about what she wants. There ought to be an advocate who can find out what she wants. It's about her human rights and that's what's missing."* So, there ought to be an advocate, but I don't think that person is at Scope, actually. Here is Scope's statement, as it appears on their website, and here is an interesting FAQ about "Supporting communication through AAC (Alternative and Augmentative Communication)"**. As best I can determine, Scope itself does not provide this service, but it does provide a link to a PDF with a list of other charities, professional associations, and so forth. If a therapist experienced in AAC training and support is found and Katie is still not able to communicate, would that person's assessment of Katie be sufficient? Or would that assessment, too, be invalid because the therapist might, because of being formally educated, be more likely to make and act on unfounded assumptions?

Do you see where I'm going with this? Somebody, somewhere, has to make a decision, and by refusing to give that decision to the parents, you're not stopping it from getting made, you're just giving it over to somebody else. What are the reasons that decision-making is taken from parents? I can think of two that I think are legitimate and not classist: 1. The parents are uninformed and refuse to become informed, 2. The parents are abusive. I have explained why I don't think these parents fit either category: they have themselves indicated that the procedure is something that they believe is appropriate for their child specifically, so they are not just subjecting their kid to something that they think all disabled children should have simply because they're disabled; they want their kid to have independent representation; they care for their kid in the home, pay attention to what she likes, and express a commitment to going to considerable trouble to be able to continue to care for her and provide her with enjoyable experiences.

Maybe there is a third reason, however, though in re-reading your posts I don't see what you think it is, other, perhaps, than that the news coverage on the issue says only that Katie "cannot walk or talk and is believed to understand little of what is said to her" without saying who believes this or why (the harm sometimes done by passive voice in action!). If I were writing an article on this issue, particularly after having had this discussion, I would give at least one paragraph of the eight the Times allots to this story to a discussion of the evidence for a statement like that. The other articles focus on different things, each presumably written to keep in line with editorial policy at that particular institution. If the problem is with reportage, perhaps we could start a thread in Switchboard on how such stories are treated in the news, why, and what the larger implications are of that? Or if you'd like to keep the topic alive in this thread, perhaps a link in the Switchboard could direct people who might be interested in the reportage aspect to this thread?

*I find the notion that it should not be about her best interests deeply strange and would like to know whether decisions based on best interests rather than the desires of 14-year-olds being described as a human rights issue applies equally to those who can and do quite easily express what they want.

**I had to register with Scope to access those PDFs, so if the links don't work, let me know.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:31 / 11.10.07
Thanks, Zippid, I think I understand better. So, am I right in thinking that you are saying that, in the absence of a specific accounting of the efforts that have been made to communicate with the child, one must assume that the efforts have not been made - as a corollary of the proposition that if the child has not been identified as unable to communicate using a particular method then she must be assumed to be able or potentially able to communicate using that chosen method until proven otherwise - and therefore that one must work on the assumption that the parents are seeking to have the operation performed without having made any efforts to communicate with her except where those efforts have been recorded, yes? Is that about right? So, in this case, only verbal attempts to communicate are documented in the media, and therefore only verbal attempts to communicate can safely be taken to have been made, and either the parents or the media are therefore guilty of profound neglect, with no clarity as to which?

(I have much less idea what you are talking about re: natarajah - who has stated:

Maybe i just have to accept that my disability means i am just not, and never will be, "impartial" enough for this type of community...

As I have already said, I do not think impartiality is any disqualifier from discussion. In fact, "partial" and "impartial" are interesting in themselves - recently the thread on African-Americans and Sport was bumped in the Lab, and re-reading that, I found myself rather icked out by the way "impartial" observation led people to compare the breeding of African-Americans with that of animals. However, I think in this case the word is doing duty for meaning "likely to avoid suggesting that people are racists, supporters of child murder and/or bad feminists for not being partial and of the same party as me". So:

but attributing it to a feeling of entitlement derived from a social disadvantage is like telling women who say ill-considered things in response to sexism that they felt "entitled" to do so because they are women.

is untrue in almost every particular except the conjunctions, I think. Perhaps a more accurate description would be is like telling a woman who is personally and generally agressive in response to a perceived failure by others to understand the rightness of her beliefs regarding sexism and who then specifically identifies her gender as the reason why she was such, without addressing her previous conduct or statements that she felt "entitled" to do so because she was a woman. In which case, yes, I think that's a very acute comparison. Perhaps it would be useful to look at how these comparisons vary and how those variances can be reconciled, but I am not sure it would be useful here.)
 
 
HCE
12:35 / 11.10.07
[Incidentally, zippid, my personal relationship with you is more important to me than this conversation, and if distress about not being able to see eye-to-eye on this issue is going to leak off Barbelith I would rather quit this thread. I'm posting this here rather than in a PM because of Hydra's comment about impartiality and personal involvement - I am partial, and personally involved, though in a different way.]
 
 
*
00:17 / 12.10.07
('s fine... I'm letting this thread mellow until the cold medicine wears off. Apologies all.)
 
 
HCE
14:10 / 12.10.07
Feel better soon, zippid!
 
 
*
20:21 / 12.10.07
Okay, hell, it's raining, I'm at work despite my cold, and there's really nothing to do but eat soup and answer the telephone.

So I'm hearing you say, I think, that by drawing attention to the lack of a concrete explanation of how it is known that Katie can't understand menstruation or make choices about her medical care, I'm being unfair to her parents. I understand and respect your position. I believe you are probably right that her parents are doing all they can to make sure she has representation, to include her in the decision as appropriately as they are able, and to assess how much she can understand to the best of their ability. They're acting responsibly, in my opinion, by stressing that this is a decision they think is appropriate in this specific case, not one they think is appropriate in the case of every young female with a range of disability. In any case I see like this, I am concerned that perhaps not enough has been done to facilitate communication with the disabled person, to involve them in their own care. I don't think it's a matter of all or nothing as you've framed it, here, Haus:

am I right in thinking that you are saying that, in the absence of a specific accounting of the efforts that have been made to communicate with the child, one must assume that the efforts have not been made ... and therefore that one must work on the assumption that the parents are seeking to have the operation performed without having made any efforts to communicate with her except where those efforts have been recorded,

I think what I'm getting at is that without some kind of recorded assessment, it's very difficult to know several things:
1) To what degree is the disabled person able to understand and make decisions? This is not an all or nothing proposition.
2) To what level of certainty has this been established?
3) If there is any ability to understand and make choices, how has communication been established? How much nuance can this communication form convey? Can only the most intimately familiar caregivers understand the communication or would it be intelligible to someone unfamiliar with a reasonable orientation?
4) Finally, if there is comprehension and communication, what are the expressed wishes of the person, and to what extent can they be understood and implemented?
Without any of this information, it seems reasonable to me to wonder. If this information is available, why wasn't some reference to it in the article? To omit it has worrying consequences for the readers, for Katie and her family, and potentially for other people in similar circumstances. We have already discussed the Telegraph's motives for not including it to some extent, but I haven't really seen it covered anywhere. There is a great deal more grey area than you've allowed for, Haus.

I think there is an understandable and necessary tension between questioning the assignment of cognitive impairment to children with speech and motor impairments, and protecting the ability of their parents and caregivers to make positive decisions that affect their health. Some of this questioning is happening on the internet by armchair ethicists, because an important part of what's going on here is that it's raising the profile of cases like these. The internet is one place where people who are thinking about these issues are discussing their reactions to it. I think that's a positive thing in general, because by raising awareness it may help uncover cases in which thinking and feeling people with speech and motor impairments are treated as inanimate objects. I also recognize that it has negative effects on people's privacy.

As far as why a 14-year-old's wishes should be concerned, irrespective of any cognitive impairment--if this were lifesaving, or significantly reduced some risk to her health, I would say that an assessment of her needs by an outside professional might very well override her wishes. But it's being done for her comfort. If it's being done for her comfort, her wishes are indeed substantially concerned. This is a decision between: a) surgery with around six weeks of painful recovery time and possibly a greater risk of osteoporosis unless counteracted by hormone therapy for the rest of her life, and higher risk of cardiovascular disease regardless of hormone treatments; and b) regular or possibly irregular menstruation with bleeding and potential pain, perhaps with some risk of infections due to hygiene challenges. I'm sure these are concerns her parents and her doctors are weighing very carefully, but since it's not a clear-cut decision, if Katie has an opinion on this, it should be taken into account. One day she will be an adult and may well prefer to deal with menstruation than with the risk of osteoporosis, which is very serious in people with mobility impairments.

Not in every case will a young person with speech and motor impairment have caregivers, even parents, who are willing or able to accurately assess how much they can understand and choose. I am willing to take the risk of asserting that some third party with wide-ranging experience in assessing level of cognition in people who cannot communicate should be involved in every case where a major decision is being made on behalf of someone who is believed not to be able to choose for themselves. I understand this will result in some unfairness to parents who are doing a good job of this already.

As I see it, there's a bit of balancing going on. We know we're limited in our ability to understand people who have full cognitive abilities but can't use speech or writing or communication boards. For one thing there's a learning curve involved, just like there is in learning to speak and write, and there's the risk of misassessment no matter what efforts are made. That doesn't invalidate the necessity of making every effort. I think that protecting people with disabilities' rights to make decisions for themselves ought to be a balance among expert medical opinion, the intimate knowledge of parents and caregivers, and judicial review, and when these disagree, the opinion that accords the most agency to the disabled person should be followed unless there's some good reason why that's impossible. I don't think that parents should have the unlimited right to make decisions for their disabled children without some kind of outside check. At the same time I think the process of reviewing their decisions should be reserved for cases where it does materially impact the health and comfort of the disabled person, including this kind of case where surgery that is not medically necessary is proposed as a means of alleviating projected discomfort.

I may have acted inappropriately in this thread, or communicated as if I believed something radically different from the above. If so, I apologize. It's my considered belief that my class bias does not play a part in the basic assertion that there is a possibility that Alison Thorpe and Peter Reynolds may not have accurately assessed Katie's ability to comprehend. I would have similar concerns were her parents both neurologists, although I suspect neurologists would have an easier time convincing me that their assessments were accurate, whether or not they actually were. Class bias may well have affected my emotional reaction or my phrasing somewhere; if so I apologize for that as well.

I probably haven't addressed all of your concerns, so please let me know what I've missed or been unclear about. I'd like to leave aside Hydra and hir behavior and Haus' reaction to it unless that's a problem for either Hydra or Haus. It seems to be confusing matters, and I apologize for having brought it up in-thread. If you're concerned, feel free to PM me.
 
 
HCE
21:56 / 12.10.07
Just a quick note that the bit you quoted is from Haus, not me, and I think I have a quite different set of questions than he does, but thank you for your comprehensive reply. I'll go over it and respond a little later.
 
 
*
22:25 / 12.10.07
I've put in for moderations. I'm sorry for the error.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
13:46 / 13.10.07
(Aside to the questions of whether or not it has been established whether Katie is cognitively impaired, is there actually any reason to suggest that even if she was, going through puberty would cause her great confusion, or indeed any distress at all unique to her condition? Several other primate species menstruate, and as far as I'm aware the fact that none of these have the mental capacity to understand much of what a human said to them doesn't mean that they become terribly confused and distressed by this fact.)
 
 
*
17:18 / 13.10.07
The impaired cognitive function of a person with a mental disability has not been shown to be similar to the cognitive function of a healthy chimp. That's a rather loaded assumption.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
17:56 / 13.10.07
I'm sorry; I didn't mean to imply that it was. I do, though, think that assuming based entirely on speculation (as, as far as I can tell, Alison seems to be doing) that if one does not fully comprehend something occurring to one's body it will be distressingly confusing is very spurious indeed.
 
 
HCE
06:00 / 14.10.07
Based entirely on speculation? Really? So having cared for Katie for her entire life provides no basis whatsoever? You think that in the past 14 years she hasn't seen or heard even a single thing that may have influenced her opinion?

Is it not possible to raise perfectly legitimate doubts about Katie's ability to understand without disparaging Alison? As zippid points out, there is a risk of misassessment no matter what efforts are made. A better way forward might be to look at providing national standards for assessment, informed by research, alongside a training and certification program for therapists specializing in this line of work. Ideally, opportunities for augmented communication should be provided as early as possible, well before puberty.

(In the U.S. of course it would be great if we had national dental, visual, and health care, while we're making a wishlist, so that kids don't die from tooth infections; but medical disasters as a result of social problems are another thread.)

Zippid also says, I don't think that parents should have the unlimited right to make decisions for their disabled children without some kind of outside check, which I think is certainly right. Each of these families is being subjected to quite a number of outside checks, from the first wave of doctors, to the courts, to the media, to public opinion. If their rights were actually unlimited and not subject to outside checks, there would be no hospital ethics committees, no court dates or advocates, independent or otherwise.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
10:34 / 14.10.07
Kangourou, I wasn't commenting on Alison's ability to judge whether Katie has a cognitive impairment, but her reason for thinking that her starting puberty, if she does have any such cognitive impairment, would cause her distressing levels of confusion. Perhaps knowing Katie for 14 years might provide her with some idea, but I'd still suggest it's highly speculative.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:23 / 16.10.07
if one does not fully comprehend something occurring to one's body it will be distressingly confusing is very spurious indeed.

What, sitting in a pool of blood and not being able to tell anyone to clean it up isn't distressing? This isn't a discussion of puberty, this case is specifically about a girl who is incapable of sorting herself out menstruating, perhaps it's worth thinking about what that means physically.
 
 
HCE
14:40 / 16.10.07
Let's not get started on menstruation. I've had my period (calculates) about 250 times and it is, if anything, getting more baffling and distressing. Again, I do not think that a mother who has cared for her daughter in an unusually intimate way for 14 years can be said to be merely speculating about how she might react to a new experience, and specifically this one.

But there seem to be two sets of questions here: the first deals with whether a hysterectomy is appropriate for Katie, and the second is who gets to decide, and what legal requirements there should be around that decision (such as demonstrating that X, Y, Z assessments and communication methods have been employed).
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:45 / 17.10.07
Yes, I think it bears mentioning that the mature female body is sometimes a desperately painful place to live. If the mother has significant pain and distress around her period it is highly likely that her daughter will too. This is not speculation.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
04:27 / 18.01.08
Doctor's refuse mother's request to have Katie's womb removed. She and the Daily Mail are blaming Scope for this but there's no evidence for this in the report.
 
  

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