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The 'Ashley Treatment'

 
  

Page: (1)234

 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:18 / 04.01.07
I'm afraid this initial post is mainly going to be links to news stories as I really don't know yet WHAT I think. The parents make their case here but it's reported by the BBC, the Times and Fox News.

I've got mixed feelings about this, not so much in this case but for future cases with different people with different conditions. Is this a slightly thicker part of the wedge of those that would turn the life-support machines of people in Permanent Vegatative States off?
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
13:37 / 04.01.07
I just posted about this in Switchboard, not knowing there was a thread in Head Shop. Er, should it get transferred or something?
 
 
Twice
14:54 / 04.01.07
It’s hard to know where to start with this. It seems wrong in so many ways. Starting with the obvious, one would have to attempt to decide (if one allowed even basic acceptance of this behaviour in principle) how to delineate consensual from non-consensual children in terms of static development. While surgical intervention is often used on disabled children, this has tended to be in order to improve their chances of living ‘normally’ within society (another discussion). Degrees of consent/consciousness are, as Amanda Baggs makes clear, difficult to ascertain. Even the parents, in their defense of their actions, are clearly unsure of this. They claim to be unsure whether their daughter actually recognises them, yet are quite certain that she recognises the singer Andrea Boccelli. Although Amanda Baggs as an example is not necessarily applicable, it is certainly illustrative.

The argument about whether such action will indeed make the child more physically comfortable in future cannot be settled to any degree. It may well be that these treatments will do what they set out to do. However, precedent has been set. The idea that non-mobile disabled children might have this treatment as a matter of course, for the reasons given, is repulsive.

Another deeply disturbing aspect is the label given to this girl by her family: ‘Pillow Angel’. This is a dehumanising approach to a child, giving her the status of a toy. “We call her our “Pillow Angel” since she is so sweet and stays right where we place her—usually on a pillow”. Ashley has been denied full human status. Throughout their explanation, her parents seem to show signs of discomfort at the idea of their daughter becoming an adult woman. “ A nine and a half year old body is more appropriate and more dignified than a fully grown female body”, they say, yet they claim that she has no notion of dignity. Whose dignity are they talking about?

Furthermore, we did not pursue this treatment with the intention of prolonging Ashley’s care at home. We would never turn the care of Ashley over to strangers even if she had grown tall and heavy. In the extreme, even an Ashley at 300 pounds, would still be at home and we would figure out a way to take care of her. Well, they’ve certainly made sure they won’t have to.

(Quotes taken from Our Lady’s link.)
 
 
Ticker
15:50 / 04.01.07
The thing that struck me while reading the articles and blog was specifically the altering of a body (belonging to someone who cannot consent) that did not have any current life threatening issues. The reasons given seem to be about making the caregivers' lives easier and making the body/person conform to their ideal.

The truly shocking piece for me was the decision to ignore the constant evolution of scientific discovery and medical advancement. The person is only 9, who is to say that within her lifetime advancements might not be made to treat or change her condition?

I'm appalled at the idea of sterilizing and hormonally repressing someone to prevent sexual abuse, or more likely outward signs of sexual abuse. Removing breasts and uteruses does not protect people from violence. Such a suggestion is outrageous in light of the sexual violence very young children are subjected to.

Altering a person's body to make disease more easily cared for (colostomy) or survivable is one thing, and to make them more socially acceptable in the case of disfigurement is another, but to make them into pets is highly unethical. I say pets because this is what we do to house pets, we neuter and spay them to avoid pregnancy and unwanted behavior. We alter their bodies for our convenience and justify it based on their presumed health benefits.

Am I comfortable with neutering my cats, not completely. Am I comfortable with neutering a human child, not at all.
 
 
petunia
20:28 / 04.01.07
I feel sick.

The unwilling removal of parts of people's life is just hideous.

Concerning the argument that a hysterectomy will make Ashley a lot more physically comfortable free of menstrual cramps. Would this argument be seen as anywhere near valid if Ashley were able-bodied? How can Ashley's parents presume to remove parts of her body in order to avoid discomfort if they haven't with their other children.

The pillow angel crap just highlights the points made above that Ashley is turned into a toy or a pet for her parents. The rhetoric about 'loss of dignity' stinks high. The underlying fear of Ashley's parents that she will turn into another cumbersome, ugly disabled adult is so obvious it's ridiculous.

Currently, one person can carry Ashley, versus requiring two people or a hoisting harness and ropes, should she have grown larger. As a result, Ashley can continue to delight in being held in our arms and will be moved and taken on trips more frequently and will have more exposure to activities and social gatherings [...] instead of lying down in her bed staring at TV (or the ceiling) all day long.

But why would she be staring at the tv all day long, you pillow angel perverts? That's right - because you'd find it too much effort to care for someone you couldn't just pick up and sling over your shoulder. It's like people who buy a St Bernard puppy because it's oooh soo ickle and cute, but then dump it at the pound when they realise it actually requires real attention. I mean - having to change your lifestyle because your disabled daughter is growing up?! God would never want that!

The breast prevention seems to be fitting with the whole infantalisation of Ashley. While it can be argued that her breasts would have caused her discomfort, it seems more likely that the parents have real issues considering their child as anything other than a child. Periods and breasts would be horrid reminders of the 'loss of dignity' that is growing up as disabled. Disabled kids are cute toys. Disabled adults are just.. eww. Boobs are for real women. Not teh disableds.

And, for fuck's sake - Large breasts could “sexualize” Ashley towards her caregiver, especially when they are touched while she is being moved or handled, inviting the possibility of abuse.

Did they not say that they would look after her, no matter what? Are Ashley's parents openly saying that they, as her caregivers, might find her sexually attractive if she got breasts? Obviously not, but the argument here shows they have real issues with the fact that their child may at one point become a woman.

This is just an act made by a couple of freaked-out parents who have realised their life will continue to get harder, both mentally and physically, as Ashley gets older. They seem to know full well that they wouldn't be able to/want to cope with caring for Ashley if she were to mature physically. Instead of accepting that they were not fully suited to the role of carer in Ashley's continued life, they have refused to let her grow up.

The fact that they have been allowed to do this to their child is beyond worrying. I just want to hit things.

The scariest part of the whole text is where the parents say The decision to move forward with this treatment, unlike what most have thought, was not difficult.

The simple fact that they went through this seemingly without genuine consideration of the issue is beyond belief.

I'm used to (though far from accepting of) the fact that our society is ablist, that able-bodied is the norm, and that life with a disability is often made a lot harder than it than it already is by the assumptions and failings of society. But i'm just stunned that a disabled person can be actively altered and mutilated in order to make the lives of those around her easier. Naive, yes. But shit. This is horrid.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
20:37 / 04.01.07
OK, i'll copy and paste my opening post from Switchboard here (might have to re-do the links).

Thanks to the people who have posted on this thread for reassuring me that there is some sanity, and this isn't something that everyone in the world but me (and a few other disabled bloggers) finds acceptable...
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
20:43 / 04.01.07
Original Switchboard post:

Disabled girl forcibly treated to make her "always remain a child"
9-year-old girl has her reproductive organs and breasts removed and forcible hormone treatment to stunt her growth, at her parents' request and with the explicit intent of preventing her from ever reaching physical adulthood, simply because she is disabled. US and UK "ethicists" approve: disgust and horror are beyond words.
:: STARTED BY nataraja: strange, but true

BBC news story.

I knew, from a previous report on the BBC disability website, that this "treatment" had been suggested and "approved" by "ethicists", but not that it had actually been carried out...

My disgust and horror at this know no bounds, compounded by the fact that there are several places on the web where the majority of people seem to see nothing wrong with this course of action, and even regard it as "beneficial" (eg here). I've commented a bit (under the name shiva_x) here.

It's worth pointing out that labels like "mental age of 3 months" and "will never be able to communicate her own wishes sufficiently to consent to treatment" (paraphrase) are, pretty much, meaningless: people who have been presumed to have no awareness or ability to communicate whatsoever, often based on extremely biased forms of testing or simply on assumptions (of the "if ze can't do X then ze couldn't possibly be able to do Y" type) with no real logical foundation whatsoever, have been facilitated by people who bothered to put in the time and effort to communicate extremely clearly and effectively - Amanda Baggs (who has a (very partial, as it refers only to people with autism, and not the several other impairments this also applies to) list on her blog of many others) and Cal Montgomery are two such who I count among the best, most insightful and intelligent writers about disability anywhere...

I wonder how many of the same people who approve of this would disapprove of practices like "female circumcision" (which, incidentally, is often done consensually), because that's done by those dodgy, foreign, different coloured, poor people, whereas this is being done by a relatively rich family and the medical authorities (%who of course always act in people's best interests...&)?

Also worth noting is that the same sort of positive comments as those written about these parents are also used about parents who murder their children, for no other reason than that those children are disabled...

There seems to be a surprising silence from feminists on this...
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
20:43 / 04.01.07
I suppose the other thread can be deleted now...
 
 
alas
23:38 / 04.01.07
There seems to be a surprising silence from feminists on this...

Hmmm....Are you absolutely sure that none of the people commenting on this are feminists? Do you identify as a feminist? (If not, I'd be interested in why not...)

Nancy Mairs, who is a feminist and whose writing has deeply influenced the disability community (Her essay "On Being a Cripple" from 1986 was one of the first to really claim that term; her memoir, Waist High in the World is a classic of the genre). , contains a great deal of writing that teases out the complexity of such cases and comes out strongly against assisted suicide, etc. She apparently hasn't yet commented on this case, but if she's able (she as MS, which is degenerative, so her writing has slowed in recent years), but I suspect she will. At any rate, since there are many other women who are advocates of disability rights and of women's rights, I think it's unproductive to pose such a question as if there is a neat divide between the two. Particularly since this is the first I, for one, have heard of this story, which apparently broke yesterday.

Ok, now, onto the story itself. Basically I agree with the critiques that have already been made, and I can see a strong connection between the arguments made by adult women about controlling their own bodies. Infantilization of adults is a dangerous thing.

But, while the Ashley case is claimed by the parent's blog to be the first of its kind, early hormonal treatment, and sometimes surgeries, in this case of children who consent/ask for the treatment, is a trend for many children diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder. In some countries, the US and the Netherlands, e.g. but not Britain, it is increasingly common for transsexual children to be prescribed "puberty blockers," with their parents' authorization, in order to delay the onset of adolescence so they can decide whether they want to transition before going through the physical changes of the adolescent body.

Here's an Australian doctor explaining the two schools of thought, and why he leans toward the London school: . . . there are two schools of thought on that. There’s Amsterdam School which believes that treatment with puberty blockers should be given as soon as puberty starts so that the child doesn’t have to go through the puberty in the sex that they don’t wish to be. The disadvantage of doing that is that if you stop puberty all together in a genetic male who is going to become a female, you deny that person the opportunity of developing the testes to the stage of being able to collect and freeze some sperm so that the option for fertility for them is is gone once and for all. Ah the other school of thought is the London school and they feel very nervous about blocking puberty and so they require the person to go almost all the way through puberty and then they give them the block drugs and the cross-sex hormones. That particular one appeals to me more, even though it’s perhaps less kind in terms of the wishes of the child because it preserves the option of fertility and I think if we go back to the intersex situation, ah people yearn for the preservation of all of their options and one of the options has to be fertility. So my view at the moment is that I would want to preserve fertility and go for the later treatment.

There's also this, from a recent New York Times column on the topic of gender variant children: But Dr. Kenneth Zucker, a psychologist and head of the gender-identity service at the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, disagrees with the “free to be” approach with young children and cross-dressing in public. Over the past 30 years, Dr. Zucker has treated about 500 preadolescent gender-variant children. In his studies, 80 percent grow out of the behavior, but 15 percent to 20 percent continue to be distressed about their gender and may ultimately change their sex.

But many many transgender advocates feel that the risks of suicide are very real for these kids and outweigh the risks. I know many parents who are making this choice with their children, following their children's lead, and they are sincere in their belief that they are acting in the best interests of the child. But I admit I remain quite ambivalent. I'm just not sure about this, but it's also not in my experience, as my child was much older when he came out to me.
 
 
Blake Head
01:09 / 05.01.07
There is a stunning lack of sympathy on display for parents who are attempting to address the needs of their severely disabled child. I think we can all agree that their methods are surprising, and very possibly badly misjudged or partially inspired by very dubious premises, but I’d suggest the level of debate in an emotive issue might be maintained by addressing the form of treatment in question, and refraining from couching discussion of it in terms of disgust and revulsion.

I think comments that focus on the smallest of supporting evidence for the alleged objectification of the child are premature. Of course it’s obvious. Of course it’s easy to assume that the parents have created attempted to create a monster and are themselves monstrous. “Pillow Angel Perverts” lends itself perfectly to the kind of reactionary tabloid headline view that is more willing to address the appearance of an issue than its substance.

If the reports are accurate, which as far as I can see is all we are all going on, “Ashley” has no or minimal possibilities of functioning in “normal society”, and has extremely limited mental and motor abilities, which (as far as current medical knowledge can predict) will leave her permanently in a state of dependence and unable to grant consent as an individual in any way. There are significant ways in which such a person must have their quality of life guarded by others, which will include actions taken without a consent they are unable to give: to expect otherwise is absurd. The fact that such a person is more likely to be treated as an object because of their incapacity to give consent means that accusations regarding the practice of objectification or bestialisation in order to undermine their status as individuals as modes of convenience or control are much more easily to hand, despite the fact that we assume a responsible person or persons must protect their quality of life whether they can give consent or no. If the elements of Ashley’s life that have been “removed”, were (again, in the best understanding of current medical knowledge) never going to be accessible to her, I would question in what sense she is harmed by their absence, particularly if it is true that there are substantial health and quality of life benefits to her by their removal (or rather the removal of specific biological disadvantages understood in the specific subjectivity of this case). I would also say that, as the parents are charged with her acting in her best interests, they would be being negligent if they did not consider courses of treatment that could improve her quality of life, even when that treatment presented them with a great deal of both personal and social pressure.

I think rather than focusing on the intentionality of the parents in this case, we should question whether the decision they made was in the best medical interests of their child, rather than cynically speculating on their supposedly deformed psychologies from our high status as Superior Moral Persons, and to question whether if in fact they were not responsible persons, why the medical establishment in question supported their treatment plans rather than dismissing them as medically unsound and/or unethical.

I think the first element of that, whether the medical treatment was sound, is likely to be contentious enough on its own without including the pop psychology, though possibly we could benefit from the opinion of anyone on the board with more experience of the medical establishment? I’ve already heard numerous reasons (off-board) why such a series of treatments were not necessarily uncomplicated or necessarily in the best interests of any patient, but I personally don’t feel qualified to make any assertion one way or another, and I’m curious as to how much other people are making judgements from a similar point of view of relative ignorance and to what degree sentiment rather than knowledge is informing their positions. Several different, less invasive courses of treatment have been suggested as alternatives, but again I don’t feel that I’m in a position to assess to their medical benefits in what is I understand quite a rare condition – one would assume that the parents also were not in a position to objectively assess different treatments, and should have been in receipt of appropriate professional counsel, although I think you could argue that they had a valid right to assess subjectively a course of treatment in terms of how they wished to include their child in their own life. The various surgeries combine to make a compelling picture of a child “denied” adulthood by freakish parents, but taken individually they appear to have tangible medical benefits, and the parents themselves do not characterise their primary motivation in terms of infant/adult but instead in improving the quality of life for their child.

As it stands, the parents specifically made the point that discomfort, even small discomfort, was especially distressing to Ashley, and as she is not in a position to relieve her own discomfort, they made decisions in order to minimise her future distress. They also made the point that her inclusion in the family unit, integral to their other main aim in keeping Ashley stimulated, would be maximised – not just made more convenient – if these treatment decisions were implemented. I have yet to see why either of these causes could be interpreted as seeking to lower her quality of life or subtract from her basic human rights.

There are three reasons given in the full blog why Ashley had surgery carried out on her breasts:
1) To prevent likely discomfort to Ashley,
2) To prevent future medical problems hereditary in the family
3) The prevent the situation where: Large breasts could “sexualize” Ashley towards her caregiver, especially when they are touched while she is being moved or handled, inviting the possibility of abuse.

The first two reasons, as presented by the family and as supported by their doctors, seem valid to me. I don’t know how I’d feel about making those decisions on the part of my child, but if I understood that the conditions of their illness meant that the course of action taken was in their best medical interest, I would feel it was my responsibility as a parent, rather than my legal right as a guardian, that would motivate consideration of such actions. The third reason, and the superficial infantilisation of Ashley generally, are obviously more problematic. I’m certain that the sexualisation of vulnerable individuals such as the severely disabled to their carers does happen, can happen, but I find it difficult to understand the medical justification for action on that basis, which appears paranoid in the extreme alongside the more justifiable expectation that she will suffer from medical problems as a result of non-action. At different points in the blog the parents mention several features of the treatment that they had not previously considered, but are now happy to add to the list of advantages, and whether or not that’s them being defensive under pressure, one would clearly have hoped that a greater level of discussion, and a much greater degree of certainty on the part of both the parents and those advising them. The fact that the mother in this case devised the treatment plan, rather than have it suggested by a health care professional, is what makes this appear so badly thought out, with various “selling points” being tacked on, suggesting, I agree, that the parents do have other considerations maybe not in addition to caring for their child, but influencing the way the understand what it is to care for their child in this situation. To be fair, they do themselves address the subjectivity of this treatment for other disabled children, and there’s no question that they are promoting its use for anything other than practical purposes and upon careful consideration of its merits. That understanding is likely something a lot of people will disagree with. Concepts of dignity, infantilisation, and further suppositions on the pathology of the parents may very well serve as criticisms of their own understanding of age, disability and individual rights, what I don’t see is how they help

I find the idea of an artificial, arrested childhood (or child-like adulthood) deeply disturbing, but I suspect that’s because I think I’m attributing an awareness on Ashley’s part of what adult/child means that simply isn’t there. I may find – or in this case suspect - that the intentions of the parents are disturbing, but isn’t that irrelevant if Ashley isn’t harmed by their actions, and when the unadorned medical action taken (we assume) does the opposite and benefits her quality of life? I know it’s difficult not to think of this in terms like “mutilation”, but I don’t know how terms like that can be helpful when the actions are neither done out of malice (ignorance, possibly) or restrict the subject’s participation in society. I suspect that if Ashley’s parents sincerely feel they have improved her quality of life, as was their stated intention, then they couldn’t care less whether someone disagrees with either their methods or their intentions. And I’ll quote:

“We want to avoid sensationalism or philosophical debates about what we did and why we did it. We’d rather care for and enjoy Ashley than get into endless debates.”

As xk says, the possibilities of future medical technologies would be a major, major argument against such extreme measures. However, I’d like to ask that if we’re so prepared to blame the parents for making the choice they did, which will directly influence the immediate present of their parenting, why aren’t we as vehement in criticism of the ethics board that agreed such treatment, who, presumably, had far greater understanding of what sort of medical advances might aid the child in the near future.

I think the crux of what I’m getting at here is: if a combination of sound medical advice and questionable intentions results in a higher quality of life for Ashley, does it essentially matter that the intentions muddied the process, if the result was beneficial? I think the more pressing questions here are whether the medical advice was indeed sound, and to what extent the interference with or persuasion of the medical position by the parents own wishes was taken – which would clearly be highly undesirable in any future cases, and if it has resulted in an overall limiting of Ashley’s future quality of life, it is a compromise on the part of those members of the medical ethics board which is utterly indefensible. I absolutely don’t think the process here (as reported) has been as transparent as it should be, and I have undeniable misgivings regarding the objectivity of the assessments made, both by the parents and by the medical authorities; all I’m attempting to do is suggest that we criticise the real rather than the illusory problems in this case.

To sensationally criticise not just the choice the parents made, but also to condemn them for the future care they are too lazy or too selfish to give, from a position completely independent from the responsibilities and expenditure of emotional and physical energy required to look after a severely disabled child, is a mark of the highest arrogance. Especially so when commenting on a journal where they repeatedly affirm both their love for the child and the fact that they are committed to caring for her no matter the difficulty. The journal need not necessarily be sincere, and I can’t see how we could prove it either way, but I really am shocked that Barbelith’s first reaction is to criticise it’s inconsistencies in order to discredit the stated unconditional love for a child in what I can only imagine are very difficult circumstances – and I didn’t at all perceive that the realities of the trials of raising a disabled child were in this case transformed into a rejection of that individual as a full human being (quite the opposite) except to bolster the arguments of those who accuse the parents of such. I’m not trying to defend the parents’ statements unreservedly, speaking on a personal level, I find statements like “We’re often huddled around her holding her hand, thus sensing a powerful connection with her pure, innocent and angelic spirit.” difficult to connect with, I might even go so far as to think them repulsively twee, but I wouldn’t attempt to use that lack of understanding on my part to question how genuine their expression of paternal love was because of the form it had taken.

Just to make it clear, I think there are serious issues in this case that can and should be discussed. My initial reaction to the news article was probably similar to those above, but on further reading I was left with a more conflicted view of the events. I think I’ll make the point now that it could be revealed that Ashley’s parents are indeed monstrous, that I have spectacularly failed to read between the lines of their statement, and if that does prove to be the case I would be just as angry as I was initially, and I’ll apologise to you all for spending so many words in their defence worthlessly. But until the evidence for that becomes clearer, I don’t think that just because a practice is unusual or appears to disturb the individual values that we all support that we should immediately and superficially condemn it, and I find the conservatism on display above disquieting. I think criticising the actions of the parents because of their appearance or their symbolic value to schools of critical theory should not fail to address both the facts of the situation and their importance as facts which relate to living individuals, not as embodiments of abstract theory. The previous statement, should not, I hope, invalidate criticism of the potential consequences for Ashley in this case. I can sincerely only hope that the repercussions for the child, and the precedent it sets, are not as bad as is currently feared.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:41 / 05.01.07
Bravo Blake Head, you've said it better than I could. I can't imagine what nine years of caring for a severely disabled child must be like or must do to one, as well as bringing up several other non-disabled kids. My reading of their words is of a certain disgust of 'the disabled body' and how it will continue to grow while their daughter's mind won't, but that may well just be My reading.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:16 / 05.01.07
I have a considerable amount of sympathy for Blake Head's position here. I find talk of angels and auras creepy and horrible, but that's because it's hopelessly kitsch rather than because I find them indicative of moral degeneracy. If one were to come upon a couple mourning the death of their child, would one find them disgusting and their mourning repulsive and perverted if they used these terms, or even if the course of action they proposed as a result of that child's death was repugnant to you?

This ties in in quite an interesting way with NRJ's suggestion that to condone this and oppose female genital mutilation would be doing so, in effect, because they are racists. By the same token, I'd be interested in parsing out how much of the response here is class-based - that is, if a nice, middle-class and suitably anguished Alexander Chancellor type had provided reasons for this, rather than a less articulate parent, how different the response would have been.
 
 
petunia
11:56 / 05.01.07
An excellent post, Blake Head. I was definitely posting in a rectionary (tabloid..) manner and i failed to consider the kind of issue you bring up.

I'm on my break at work, so can't post fully. Hopefully i will in the evening. But i think the issue that really grinds against my value-switch is the issue of complaint. I may well be creating a straw man out of this case, but i feel there's a strange situation here where the patient has actions performed on her because she cannot complain. Obviously, your points concerning the standard of life need genuine consideration in these terms, but i think the reason i (and possibly some of the other posters) have issues with this event is the level of objectification shown here.

Questions of right to, and ownership of, a body arise in situations like this and i am interested in how these can be considered fully.

More later.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
12:10 / 05.01.07
There is something about the case which is definitely distasteful and has the unpleasent overtones of abuse, both in past and potentially in the future. However I'd have prefferred, for the obvious ethical reasons, if they had engaged in non-voluntary euthanasia. Rather than engage in this perverse mass-consumptive and exploitative operation.

This obviously means that I think Blake's arguments are mistaken based as they are on 'individuals' appalling choices.
 
 
Spaniel
12:57 / 05.01.07
However I'd have prefferred, for the obvious ethical reasons, if they had engaged in non-voluntary euthanasia.

?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:11 / 05.01.07
Remember Alex and Maus, dude? Same thing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:22 / 05.01.07
There's an interesting question there, though. At what point do you decide that a state is entirely static? How long does Ashley have to stick around being developmentally at a certain level before you decide that there is no likelihood of her developing into something resembling an adult human being, and that the value of a child's mind is purely located in its ability to mature into an adult's mind, and without that that there is no value to it, and that it can be shut down at will? And, frankly, if a human being without the mind of an adult or a so-great likelihood of developing one has no actual value as a human being, why stop at euthanasia? And, for that matter, why shouldn't one keep such developmentally inactive humans as something akin to pets, since they have no value-as-humans?

At the other side of that argument is Natty Ra Jah's belief that it is meaningless to talk about persistent or static states, and thus that every human life must be treated as having equivalent value to a fully "developed" adult human life, since the potential of development that gives a neonate value remains inherent. That's a secular equivalent of the Schiavo view, in essence.

.trampetunia:

I may well be creating a straw man out of this case, but i feel there's a strange situation here where the patient has actions performed on her because she cannot complain.

Hum. But, we find medicine constantly engaged in the process of performing actions upon people when, if not because, they cannot complain. If Ashley's life is to be coontinued, since she has no real way to complain, then at various times medical intervention will take place about which she will be unable to complain.

If I may, might I suggest that an uncomfortable issue here is the preemptive nature of the parents' action? I have heard the absence of life-threatening conditions as another argument against the process, but, again, I think this is a marginal gloss. If Ashley had had an ingrowing toenail that was significantly affecting her quality of life, I suspect an operation to correct that would not have been controversial.

However. Let's assume for a moment that a hypothetical person in the same situation did not have this treatment, and grew in a way that caused her discomfort - say breast growth leading to back pain. At that point, a reduction operation would, again, I think probably again not be too controversial. It's the anticipation of a situation that is causing problems - the anticipation of the situation and the taking of steps to avoid it before it becomes an issue, but also the negative anticipation - the anticipation that no situation will arise in which the child has any means of understanding what puberty is, much less of desiring to have gone through it.
 
 
Twice
14:39 / 05.01.07
As has been said, it’s quite possible that the parents’ objectives will be met, and Ashley will avoid potential discomfort in future. The question I have is whether it is suitable to add static physical development to static mental development. The argument whether parts of the body should be excised simply because they are no longer of use would be difficult to answer. In Ashley’s case, the argument that those parts may have a detrimental effect on her future comfort is slightly stronger. However, it is exactly Ashley’s inability to consent that causes me difficulties. If another child were physically disabled in the same ways as Ashley yet retained the mental capacity to understand their surroundings and to communicate, in whatever small way, an understanding of the issues (at age 9, or whenever), would they consent? We don’t know. The danger, as I see it, is that an absence of ability to consent is taken as an absence of need for consent.

Add to this the theoretical extension that these procedures precede: disabled children (and adults) can have prophylactic surgeries aimed at reducing the affect of normal physiology on their conditions. The assumption is that because the mind is incapable, the body is less valuable. A conscious adult with a non-functioning body might, theoretically, declare “I am a husk; my corpus is an irrelevance; it gives me physical distress: put me in a jar.” Might ze? If I was to write myself a living will stating that should I lose all mental capacity I might be faced with this question. Would I consider it suitable to consent to corporal engineering in this way? I would not.
 
 
Twice
14:51 / 05.01.07
(As an aside to alas, I’m not sure that your analogy works totally, as the issue of consent is different and hormone blockers are rarely used as an irreversible treatment. Also, irreversible surgery will not take place in minors. The case of David Reimer, though, may be more relevant.)
 
 
ibis the being
15:21 / 05.01.07
If I may, might I suggest that an uncomfortable issue here is the preemptive nature of the parents' action?

This is precisely where my discomfort with the procedure lies, particularly the mastectomy. The chances were decent that the girl would develop large breasts; then again, she might not have. The chances were decent that if she did have large breasts they would cause discomfort; then again, they might not have. I can understand the parental motivation in concern for the girl's comfort, but I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around the reasons why an ethics board would approve that surgery.

I also don't feel it was sufficiently explained (in the news article and family blog) why the girl's growth had to be stunted. It may be that the family is not able to articulate what the medical ethicists could, which is understandable... but I would like to hear the ethical justification for that.

Unfortunately for the family, this is bound to be a hot topic. You can't reasonably put a lid on an issue that sets such a dramatic precedent for the care of disabled people. I think the comparison to eugenics is a little far-fetched at this stage, but I do see the logical progression from preemptive surgeries like this to preemptive gene-tweaking or editing.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
15:45 / 05.01.07
Bobass,

To clarify; the ethical/technical definition of non-voluntary euthanasia is where a human-being is not capable of understanding the choice between life and death, in which case euthanasis is neither voluntary nor involuntary. A case such as "Ashleys" seems to meet these criteria. The case is one where the being will never be capable of chooseing whether to live or die.

The critical point is probably whether charecteristics of rationality, autonomy and consciousness are important indicators of what it is to be human or whether it's merely a species and genetic based definition. Most people seem to thinking rather as if a human being always has a right-to-life, an appalling notion because this completely ignores the parents relations to the child and the high probability that the child will end up in an institution, understood in the widest possible case. If a right-to-life is being appealled to here then some awareness of self must.

Consider the case - the child has no rights - as the parents and the hospital have demonstrated and further they have argued it has no awareness-of-self. So we seem to have a clear example of homo-sacer (bare-life) but more a clear case where non-voluntary euthanasia would have been a more civilized and humane option.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
16:01 / 05.01.07
Ibis...

I was bemused that one of the parents said "...only parents with special-needs children are in a position to fully relate to this topic..." This appeal to particularism is not that strange considering the website and the self-publicity.

The medical-ethicist who justified the operations, from the hospitalc completely failed to produce an adequate explanation for their agreeing to carry out of the operations.

Does anyone know if there is a charity yet ?
 
 
Elettaria
16:05 / 05.01.07
I’ve just spoken to my cousin, who has spent nearly half her life in a state of disability so severe that many people wouldn’t consider her quality of life to be worthwhile at all, and who is a leading disability rights campaigner in her country. She’s closer to the inside of this sort of situation than anyone I’ve ever met. She says she’s not read up on this properly yet, but that it sounds fairly insane, and when I told her some of the parents’ weirder statements, such as their presupposition that their daughter would be at high risk for rape, she said that they need therapy. For my own part, I’m certainly engaging with this topic both as a disabled person and as a woman. Overall I disapprove of the action taken from the reports I've seen of it, but I agree with Blake Head that discussion of the individual issues concerned is more useful than a gut reaction of "ick, barbaric".

There are a number of issues which worry me, both sociological and medical. Several of the sociological ones have been covered – that the child is repeatedly referred to as a “Pillow Angel”, for instance, and I notice from the parents’ blog that they are hoping that they have now set a precedent for this treatment to be applied to many other “Pillow Angels”. This does alarm me, and I think my current list of priorities for this situation is 1) the health, comfort and happiness of Ashley; 2) enabling her caregivers to look after her as best they can (primarily a social problem); 3) the repercussions on society of normalising this sort of treatment for severely disabled children.

How far do I trust parents and doctors to make this sort of decision? Not that far. It’s still the norm to carry out surgical procedures on intersex newborns which can completely wreck their lives, out of a desire to make them “normal” by fitting into one gender or the other, and I’ve seen enough medical fuck-ups in general not to regard the medical profession as a group of deities. (With all due respect to them, of course. No one’s infallible, and they have hard jobs to do.) I’ve never assumed that parents are automatically the best judge of what is best for their children, and this pair seems fairly odd (again, with all due respect for the monstrously difficult situation they are in). They appear unhealthily obsessed with wanting to keep her a little girl, if not a toy. There are plenty of pretty pictures of the child online, the sort where you squint and wonder whether they’ve put mascara onto her, but the family’s name is kept out of the press. There are some strange discrepancies in their tale, though I’m not so sure about the one where she recognises types of music but not necessarily her parents, she could just have better auditory than visual function or have problems with sensory overload. Their attitude towards caregivers is peculiar and not properly explained. I know full well how difficult it is to get suitable caregivers, but it’s definitely possible, and the assumption that caregivers will sexually assault the child is deeply disturbing – nor is sterilisation of the child the answer. (Did the parents watch, and freak out about, Almodovar’s Talk to Her, in which – SPOILERS – a young woman in a coma is raped by a nurse who thinks he’s in love with her, and carries the resultant child to term while still in a coma?) If the parents are determined never to let a caregiver near their child, their rationale for keeping her at a weight they will still be able to lift when elderly, then the problem should never arise, though I’d like to know who is going to look after her when they die. It would clearly be in the whole family’s interests, however, to find suitable caregivers to supplement the parents. If there are financial problems with hiring caregivers (does anyone know whether the treatment this child has undergone will have been costly to the parents?), there are usually better ways around that than preventative and highly invasive surgery on the child. If she currently fits best into two baby strollers rather than a wheelchair, get a special reclining wheelchair built. People around the world manage to cope with taking disabled adults out for events, it’s not necessary to stunt the child’s growth to do so. It’s difficult anyway, the size of the person isn’t the main issue, though I will admit there have been times when I’ve been out in a wheelchair and been grateful that I use a small one due to narrow spaces.

As for the child’s comfort and health, there is more to treatment this major and invasive than the month’s recuperation they describe on their blog. Do any medics here know how much is actually known for certain about the long-term effects of such treatment? I’ve certainly heard that medically interfering with children’s growth is quite a dodgy job and avoided unless completely necessary. I can’t speak for stopping puberty, though I’d be highly wary of that. Artificial amenorrhoea, for instance stopping menstruation through anorexia or through hormonal treatment such as the long-term contraceptive Depo Provera, increases the risk of early-onset osteoporosis. Hysterectomy is major surgery, not undertaken in adults without a damn good reason, and it doesn’t actually solve all hormonal problems (according to the gynaecologist Katharina Dalton, when performed for severe PMS there’s a brief improvement of symptoms, followed by resumption and worsening of the symptoms). Not even oophorectomy (removal of the ovaries i.e. castration) does, since the hormonal messages originate in the pituitary gland and are not cancelled by removal of the reproductive organs. A quick look at Wikipedia for both procedures reveals a number of serious risks for both. I suspect this child will be on HRT and could end up with a very messed up system. And I have no idea what removal of the breast buds could cause. The only case I’ve personally heard of regarding pre-emptive mastectomy, leaving aside gender reassignment, was in a family where they had such a virulent and nasty breast cancer gene that the women all underwent early double mastectomy, otherwise they died young from cancer. That’s a good reason.

What about the physical discomfort from having a sexually mature body? Firstly, sexual maturity in women is not a disease, and it is rare that it causes extreme discomfort, so it shouldn’t be presupposed. Secondly, when it does it’s generally treatable, by far less invasive means at that, and medicine is improving all the time. I’ve got larger than average breasts and they don’t cause discomfort when I’m lying down (any strain on my back is when I’m upright); a friend with slightly larger breasts says hers occasionally do, but again this is rare. I really doubt that a chest harness would be as problematic as they describe, it sounds more like they don’t want to touch their daughter’s breasts by accident. Heaven help us if doctors and nurses decided that they didn’t want to touch any part of the body which could be perceived as sexual! Dealing with periods in terms of blood flow is not going to be more trouble than dealing with Ashley’s excretory functions, which she presumably can’t do herself. When Blake Head told me about this yesterday, at first I thought he was referring to one of those controversial cases of mentally disabled adults who are capable of engaging in consensual sexual activity but cannot handle contraception and would not be able to handle childrearing, and who are sometimes therefore given long-term contraception such as a progestogen implant so that they can’t get themselves pregnant. Such forms of contraception also tend to stop menstruation and menstrual problems, so they may be useful in this case: not perfect, there are potential side-effects, but my point is that there are methods of making the menstrual cycle less obtrusive, should it be a problem in the first place, which are shorter-term and far less invasive than surgery. Incidentally, this post is pretty much the discussion Blake Head mentioned, though he turned a bit green about the gills when I started talking about forced sterilisation and IUD insertion in developing countries and begged to be allowed to do the washing-up in peace. I’d actually be quite interested in discussing that latter subject, along with musings on pre-emptive ways of dealing with high rates of unintended pregnancy, any takers?
 
 
ibis the being
16:24 / 05.01.07
I also wanted to point out that it appeared to me there was some misunderstanding on the family's part about the comments of an ethicist on the subject of Ashley's dignity. From their blog -

If people have concerns about Ashley’s dignity, she will retain more dignity in a body that is healthier, more of a comfort to her, and more suited to her state of development as George Dvorsky, a member of the Board of Directors for the Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies, alludes to in a related article5: “If the concern has something to do with the girl’s dignity being violated, then I have to protest by arguing that the girl lacks the cognitive capacity to experience any sense of indignity. Nor do I believe this is somehow demeaning or undignified to humanity in general; the treatments will endow her with a body that more closely matches her cognitive state – both in terms of her physical size and bodily functioning. The estrogen treatment is not what is grotesque here. Rather, it is the prospect of having a full-grown and fertile woman endowed with the mind of a baby.”

I interpret Dvorsky's comment as meaning that the issue of dignity is irrelevant to a person incapable of comprehending her own state of dignity or indignity... not that it is gives her "more dignity" for her mind and body to be more closely matched as the family argues. That's leaving aside how very disturbing is Dvorsky's description of her condition as "grotesque." That sets off big alarm bells for me wrt his professional opinion about the treatment.

I wonder in general at this repeated likening of the girl's mind to that of a "baby" by the family and also apparently that particular board member.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:45 / 05.01.07
Well, if she has a developmental age of three months... although by that token, having her any shape apart from that of a three-month-old child is already unusual.

Elettaria makes a very good point - these are really quite major operations in and of themselves, and presumably the convalescence is also going to be quite long and painful. In terms of avoiding future discomfort, it's an interesting bargain. If Ashley has no sense of dignity, no conception of fittingness, no long-term memory - in effect, no sense of self - then that seems to argue potentially in several different directions. Without crowbarring Agamben into this one, one might conclude that, since Ashley is incapable of conceiving, expressing or acting on any intentions, the parents may as well do whatever they can get away with that makes their lives easier - including, of course, the ease that comes with not feeling guilty; the lived experience of Ashley, expressed as a totality, will be largely unchanged. So, the bonds become those of the ethics committee, of the law, of their own senses of probity and decency.

Their does seem to be an odd fixation on fertility and sexuality, though, doesn't there?
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
17:11 / 05.01.07
Bloody hell, that's given me a lot to reply to. I'll probably need several posts, and as this is something i have extremely personal and emotional identification with, it may be difficult for me to maintain rationality - if i stay away for a while, it's not because i can't or don't want to engage with the views that i disagree with, it's because of the rage, disgust and, most of all, hopelessness that engaging in this, absolutely necessary tho i believe it to be, makes me feel...

Firstly, i suppose, thanks Elettaria both for being another "out" disabled person on this thread and for making me feel somewhat less hopeless. Blake Head's post is the biggest, so i suppose it makes most sense for me to address first...

BH, your post, while extremely well argued and written, does frustrate me very heavily because of some of the frankly very nasty accusations (eg "lack of sympathy" and "arrogance") that it couches in your calm and rational language. The essentially particularist argument of "if you haven't been in the place of these parents, you have no right to condemn" can be very easily countered by "if you haven't been in the place of a disabled person, you have no right to condone things done to us without our consent" - tho actually, i regard that argument as true but unhelpful, since i don't think particularism is ever helpful, and i very strongly believe that everyone has the right to condemn what they, from their own acknowledged standpoint, see as unacceptable.

The "parents need sympathy and support, not condemnation" argument has also been (very frequently, in fact), used with relation to the murder of disabled children, and has been described by Amanda Baggs (who i keep coming back to simply because she articulates in her blog better than anyone else i know of about subjects very relevant to this topic) as holding disabled people hostage.

Then when you say this:

If the reports are accurate, which as far as I can see is all we are all going on, “Ashley” has no or minimal possibilities of functioning in “normal society”, and has extremely limited mental and motor abilities, which (as far as current medical knowledge can predict) will leave her permanently in a state of dependence and unable to grant consent as an individual in any way.

Have you actually read my first post, any of the thread linked to on the BBC website (on which all or nearly all the participants so far are disabled people), or any of the posts in the "Facilitated Communication" category on Amanda Baggs's blog?

The whole point is that what you said is an utterly unfounded assumption. "Mental age", like IQ, is an almost meaningless label and, in cases like this, is nearly always used for emotive effect to "infantilise" people with mental impairments and justify treating them as if they were "eternal babies". There are many, many people who were presumed to have "the mental age of infants", or "IQs too low to measure", or dozens of other categorisations meant to imply complete inability to think or make decisions, who simply had not been offered methods of communication compatible with their impairments. Dave Hingsburger has written books (I haven't read them, due to lack of availability in the UK, but have been told by very reliable sources that they're excellent) about communicating with and obtaining meaningful consent from such people.

As for "normal society"... well, the normal/abnormal dichotomy is one that a social model analysis of disability fairly unambiguously says ought not to exist...

As it stands, the parents specifically made the point that discomfort, even small discomfort, was especially distressing to Ashley, and as she is not in a position to relieve her own discomfort, they made decisions in order to minimise her future distress.

So you don't think having very major body organs removed from her will cause Ashley "discomfort"? As Elettaria has said, focusing only on the strictly medical aspects of the "treatment", hysterectomy etc may not prevent much of the "discomfort" associated with menstruation, and may cause additional "discomfort" in the form of brittle bones etc - and that's utterly beside the point that no amount of individual distress or discomfort can (from any reasonable position that values autonomy of individuals - and i'd hold that the autonomy of individuals who have difficulty in being seen as autonomous especially needs upholding) justify nonconsensual invasive surgery of any form.

I suspect that’s because I think I’m attributing an awareness on Ashley’s part of what adult/child means that simply isn’t there.

Once again, how do you know it's "simply not there"? It may well be there even if she's not capable of expressing it - understanding and the ability to communicate that understanding are not the same thing. I truly think we can't make any blanket assumptions about what people are or are not capable of percieving.

I’d like to ask that if we’re so prepared to blame the parents for making the choice they did, which will directly influence the immediate present of their parenting, why aren’t we as vehement in criticism of the ethics board that agreed such treatment, who, presumably, had far greater understanding of what sort of medical advances might aid the child in the near future.

Have I, or anyone else on this thread, suggested we're not? Everyone who was involved in the thinking up and carrying out of this "treatment" deserves equal condemnation as far as i'm concerned.

I don’t think that just because a practice is unusual or appears to disturb the individual values that we all support that we should immediately and superficially condemn it, and I find the conservatism on display above disquieting.

I don't see any "conservatism on display" in this thread, apart perhaps from your assumptions about medical assessments of disabled people's ability to think and communicate being universally and unequivocally true...
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
17:17 / 05.01.07
This ties in in quite an interesting way with NRJ's suggestion that to condone this and oppose female genital mutilation would be doing so, in effect, because they are racists. By the same token, I'd be interested in parsing out how much of the response here is class-based - that is, if a nice, middle-class and suitably anguished Alexander Chancellor type had provided reasons for this, rather than a less articulate parent, how different the response would have been.

I have absolutely no idea of the "class" of this family, and frankly i don't think it's in any way relevant. In fact, if anything, i would have to assume that, in American terms, they would have to be middle class or above in order to afford these "treatments" (in the US, unlike the UK, medical "care" isn't free)...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:29 / 05.01.07
NRJ, stop putting things in inverted commas, please. It's deeply confusing to the reader.

Now. First up, you did not address my point about your rhetorical use of race to disenfranchise people who disagree with you. Second up, class is not related only to wealth, especially not in the UK, where much of the commentary on this thread originates. It certainly doesn't alter the expressions of discomfort here about how the choice of language and means of expression the family have access to affects the way they put their case. While we're at it, calling Blake Head's sentiments nasty and then likening him to an apologist for child murder is pretty questionable as well.

So, could we possibly move off the personals and onto a more abstract area? You expressed surprise that feminists had not said more about this. Have you found any more commentary since that statement from feminists or providing a feminist perspective? What do you think are the key feminist issues here? What would you expect from a feminist entering this area?
 
 
ibis the being
17:59 / 05.01.07
Well, if she has a developmental age of three months... although by that token, having her any shape apart from that of a three-month-old child is already unusual.

It may be an apt comparison, I don't know, but it seems out of the ordinary even so. Typically a mentally disabled or brain damaged person will be described in terms of what the are, or appear to be, capable of cognitively and physically - can/can't recognize faces, can/can't sit up, etc. There is an obvious connection between the terminology chosen to describe Ashley's mental state and the treatment chosen to "treat" her condition, but what is the causal relationship between them, or is there one?
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
17:59 / 05.01.07
Alas:

I guess what i meant by "a surprising silence from feminists" is that, to my knowledge, no "high profile" feminists have spoken out on this, which seemed odd for something so intimately concerned with female embodiment and sexuality. I certainly didn't mean to imply that no one to have commentated on this is a feminist...

I guess i also may have been channeling several friends' deep disappointment at the "overall" attitude of feminism-as-a-movement to disability (Nancy Mairs, thankfully, is an exception). Many feminists have avoided wanting to be associated with the cause of disability rights, associating it with negative historical conceptions of femininity (which has interesting parallels to the attitude of (some) contemporary feminists to the struggle for emancipation by enslaved African-Americans, actually).

As to whether i identify as a feminist, that's actually quite a difficult question, as the bigger part of me wants to unequivocally answer "yes", but i'm aware of a very significant view that people who are not female-identified do not have a right to self-describe with the term "feminist"... however, i definitely believe that the insights of feminism, particularly into the dichotomies between public/private and personal/political, are absolutely essential to my social-model position on disability issues...

Thanks also for bringing in intersex/gender reassignment, as that is an obvious parallel. I support (largely because all the intersex and transsexual people i know support) the Amsterdam school on both the ethical and biomedical fronts, and am highly sceptical of Zucker's claims, which smack to me of the view of gender variance as a "mental disorder", to be "treated" psychiatrically by attempting to force the intersex or transgender child to conform to their (often arbitrarily and nonconsensually assigned) "birth sex", rather than as a valid part of human biodiversity and a "problem", where it's a "problem" at all, with physical (hormonal and/or genetic) rather than mental causes and for which physical gender reassignment is the appropriate "treatment".

As Twice Five Toes points out, David Reimer (and the untold thousands of intersex children who are surgically "assigned" at birth without their or their parents' consent or knowledge) is a much closer analogy to this case wrt consent. In the cases in Australia, Thailand and elsewhere where the Amsterdam school of gender reassignment for "primary" transsexuals (here defined as those who know they are transsexual from early childhood, and not meant to imply any form of superiority or greater "genuineness"), it tends to be the child who desperately desires treatment and the parents who at first oppose the child's wishes, but then, often reluctantly, go along with it after being told about the facts about gender variance and intersexuality...

like ritual genital alteration (or indeed sterilisation, or hysterectomy for period pains), IMO it's always wrong when done to a child without consent, but cannot be condemned when chosen willingly... the case mentioned by Haus of the woman who had a "pre-emptive" double mastectomy because of family history of breast cancer was also, IIRC, one where it was the insistence of her request (when doctors were initially reluctant) that led to it being done, rather than the opposite...

As the assistant director of the Disability Rights Commission says in the Independent, this is an attempt at a medical solution to a social problem...
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
18:18 / 05.01.07
NRJ, stop putting things in inverted commas, please. It makes you sound like Darkseid.

Now. First up, class is not related only to wealth, especially not in the UK, where much of the commentary on this thread originates. It certainly doesn't alter the expressions of discomfort here about how the choice of language and means of expression the family have access to affects the way they put their case. While we're at it, calling Blake Head's sentiments nasty and then likening him to an apologist for child murder is pretty questionable as well.

So, could we possibly move off the personals and onto a more abstract area? You expressed surprise that feminists had not said more about this. Have you found any more commentary since that statement from feminists or providing a feminist perspective? What do you think are the key feminist issues here? What would you expect from a feminist entering this area?


I'm putting terms in inverted commas because i can't bring myself to use them without some indication that they're not terms i agree with being used to describe the things they are being used to describe.

I'm aware that there are analyses of class which don't relate it only to wealth - however, my own opinion is that the only worthwhile analysis of class is one which defines it in economic terms (not just wealth, but position relative to economic means of production, etc), and that "sociological" definitions of class in terms of education, aspirations etc, which attempt to make class equivalent with, say, race or sexual orientation, actually only confuse and obscure the real issues. However, i think that's definitely a topic which deserves its own thread.

The language used by Ashley's family (in the excerpt from their blog published in the Guardian, at any rate) doesn't strike me as "inarticulate" or "uneducated" - it strikes me as ,i>prejudiced and wrong, but that's an entirely different set of concepts. If anything, i'd say the family strikes me as being, with the one exception of its having a disabled member, as being the type of family which most people in the US's, and many in the UK's, "mainstream" culture would aspire to be like.

With regard to "likening Blake Head to an apologist for child murder" (if you want to call pointing out that the exact same arguments he is using have also been used for the purpose of defending child murder that), i refer you to Amanda Baggs's post here. Also, my post was actually an attempt to respond to (and then move on from) the ad hominems, rather than continue them.

I believe i've covered your last paragraph in my reply to alas (which you posted while i was composing).
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
18:22 / 05.01.07
i don't really know whether i should feel flattered or not that the BBC has quoted me... the first bit of the report's a decent short summing up of medical vs social model tho...
 
 
Twice
19:03 / 05.01.07
And Social Model should be explored further, here, I think.

In short: society should adapt itself to accomodate disabled people, rather than demanding the adaptation of disability to suit 'society'.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:12 / 05.01.07
Does anyone have any knowledge of cases where girls have not gone through puberty, in terms of what effect this has on their bodies?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:39 / 06.01.07
So, are we creating an absolute equality of disability here?
 
  

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