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nataraja: I appreciate that this is an issue you feel strongly about. Before I reply to your points, if you believe that there is a lack of understanding in this thread and on the board as a whole and want to make more general points about disability issues, and address any common misconceptions that are made about the disabled as individuals and as a group, perhaps after more calm reflection (you mention your distress over this issue) you could approach them in a dedicated thread. We don’t currently have a Disability 101 thread, and I’d certainly be happy to hear more from your perspective. It could also be a place to discuss whether statistical data on disability should be included in the mooted Barbelith Unoffocial Demography Project and how disability functions invisibly in an online forum unless specifically recognised, even when it will inform the experiences of those who contribute within such a forum.
With regard to "likening Blake Head to an apologist for child murder" (if you want to call pointing out that the exact same arguments he is using have also been used for the purpose of defending child murder that), i refer you to Amanda Baggs's post here. Also, my post was actually an attempt to respond to (and then move on from) the ad hominems, rather than continue them.
I am personally uncomfortable that you would link a loose synopsis of my thoughts with instances of the defence of child killing, and thereby suggest that I am unsympathetic to the rights of disabled individuals, and would request that you do not do so in future. I have read your first post, some of the many comments on the BBC website, and have followed the links to Amanda Baggs’s both when you placed them in your post on this thread, and on other topics. I would therefore also suggest that implying my ignorance in this fashion is unlikely to stop divisive arguments if that’s what you were truly attempting to do. Having read that post, I fail to see its specific relevance to what you have put forward as my arguments, if you truly feel I am acting as an apologist for child murder, I would furthermore suggest to you that you make a detailed comparison of both the arguments I’ve employed and the passages from your link that you feel are relevant in justifying your assertion, otherwise I’d be happy to just let it drop with no ill will. Needless to say, I think that taken contextually my words do not support child murder or violence towards disabled children, and I consider using disability or the strain of caring for the disabled as a pretext for violence to be indefensible.
What I was reacting to was what I perceived as an overwhelming movement in the initial posts to demonise the parents without comprehensively understanding the issues, which .trampetunia acknowledges, and that I understand because it was also my first reaction to the BBC article. One of my primary aims was to ensure that this would be an issue which could be discussed rationally and all of the interesting topics it covers explored fully. The use of polarising terms like disgust, and your own frequent emboldened links to Murder, not only closes down actual discussion, but serves to give an inaccurate picture of the situation in hand. I would, for example, hope that we could hypothetically discuss a pro-choice position without being overburdened by linkage that attests that abortion is murder, and it would be hypocritical to not extend that to a discussion of individual rights where the distinction between violence and medical treatment is similarly contested. I would similarly hope that in the example above we could respect the views of others if they were expressed appropriately, even where we disagreed with the underlying principles that inform their opinions.
When using the term “normal society” I was following Twice Five Toes use of “living ‘normally’ within society’; if there’s a reason why these phrases cannot be used synonymously it wasn’t my intention to pursue it. I don’t recall using the term “mental age”, but I did feel it was necessary to re-state that Ashley has a high level of functional impairment which mean that physically and cognitively she is unlikely to the point of it being unforeseeable to be able to interact with larger society in even a notional way, and I don’t believe it is meaningless in this specific case to speak of an individual who is unable not just to communicate her consent but is cognitively impaired such that they cannot form an autonomous model in which to give that consent, and will never have understanding of or access to several adult prerogatives . To wit, your focus on female embodiment and sexuality, while perhaps relevant in assessing the motives of the parents, would appear to be irrelevant to Ashley herself, who is unable to comprehend or appreciate such concepts. She is, incidentally, not, as described by Andy Rickell in your link, a “young woman”, and will never be able to function in society as an adult woman, in the specific sense of those privileges and responsibilities than an adult woman would have. Eletarria makes several comments above on why a social model of disability does not reflect the sole impact of disability, although I agree it is yet another factor which appears to have influenced the parents’ decision regarding her care. What is clear, to me at least, is that this is a complex issue where careful rather than sensational language may help us to comprehend and assess the factors involved in the decisions made.
Once again, how do you know it's "simply not there"?
i'd hold that the autonomy of individuals who have difficulty in being seen as autonomous especially needs upholding
Well I don’t have any privileged information on Ashley’s inner life, and I feel we’re all struggling to respond to this in an absence of information released on both the level of Ashley’s disability as well as the medical evaluation of why such procedures would be desirable or even justified.
If we accept the premise that having a disparity between physical age and comparative mental ability entails a loss of dignity, then as Haus points out, Ashley is already in a state of indignity possessing a nine year old child’s body and the mind of a three-month old baby with regards to development. If we accept the views of the medical establishment in this case that: the girl lacks the cognitive capacity to experience any sense of indignity, we might reasonably turn to the other factors that do affect her quality of life. I’m not saying, natarajah, that we have to blindly accept the views of the medical establishment in the form of specific individuals or public bodies, but in the absence of further information it is speculation to discount with the assessments they have made about Ashley’s cognitive ability.
The quote that describes “a full-grown and fertile woman endowed with the mind of a baby” being grotesque is troubling because it’s an ethical (and to a degree aesthetic) judgement guised as a medical one. What I don’t think that quote necessarily does is invalidate the earlier judgement that a having a body more suited to her cognitive level will be in health terms better for her, but I absolutely agree that it problematises the issue of the objectivity of the medical ethics representative’s judgement, in a case where the idea of possessing complementary physical and mental abilities is already problematic. Similarly, while there may be a prejudicial conception of disability, and indeed a disturbing focus on sex/reproduction, present in the views of the parents, they have not presented those factors as the primary cause for the surgery, whose medical benefits are at this point, I feel, still unclear.
Following the points Haus raises, I think we are approaching this case from differing perspectives on how accurate it is to discuss Ashley in terms of an autonomous individual with a restricted ability to communicate her wishes, or as someone who lacks both the ability to mentally construct the desires and sense of self we would associate with an autonomous individual, and where it is appropriate for their legal rights to be protected by another party. To reiterate, what I’m most interested in this case is to question which, if any, of the other parties tasked in looking after Ashley’s rights, have acted inappropriately, and where the responsibility for her care has not been met.
While the usage of homo sacer has been used negatively to apply to groups on political and racial grounds, the basic idea of biological life without political or social significance does not immediately seem to be a misapplication in this case - as long as one is able to accept that terms and arguments may be used towards different ends.
What struck me while writing my first post was that at several points it did, as sdv points out, depend upon the consideration of a person capable of only minimal social interaction and capacity for self-reflection as having the legal rights of an individual. At what point a person gives up those rights is probably a topic to itself, so I’ll just add that I thought it was in those circumstances, where the rights and conveniences of others might legally be able to take precedence (up to and including non-voluntary euthanasia – I don’t think sdv was baiting the thread) that the isolated act in that the parents of Ashley X very clearly do consider her to be an individual, and have taken action that they consider to be in her interests rather than theirs, where there was perhaps no legal necessity to do so, is to be commended. Whether the assumption of that responsibility over another person has gone awry is harder to say.
Does anyone have any knowledge of cases where girls have not gone through puberty, in terms of what effect this has on their bodies?
Not me, although as I understand it the procedure in this case partly involves artificially initiating early puberty so as to drastically minimise its effects, which means that a post-pubescent childlike adulthood may eventually be a technically more accurate description. |
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