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Richard Dawkins

 
  

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el d.
10:58 / 15.12.06
I think Lurid Archive´s reply hits the spot quite well. A theist as described by the arguments above doesn´t really pose a problem, as long as he doesn´t hold his own belief to be more true than that of others. ( No missions, please. )

The problem is that most organized religions do hold their own truths to be self-evident and applicable for everyone, on pain of hell or rebirth. Whether this is the nature of the beliefs of the theist posters in here can be doubted.

Agnostic atheism is not the opposite of poetry, art or even some sort of transcendental belief. It simply states that it´s not a viable strategy to assume a god in a world full of chaos.
 
 
illmatic
11:10 / 15.12.06
The problem is that most organized religions do hold their own truths to be self-evident and applicable for everyone, on pain of hell or rebirth.

Could you name, let's say, three major religious leaders who've made these sort of statements?
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:26 / 15.12.06
What I want to know/debate from/with any Christians or other religious posters out there is give me one good reason why religious "leaders" are given a platform for their views on debates relevant to our society. ie stem cell research for example. WHY should we listen to such people? Would we listen to or give a platform to a "white witch" or a "druid" or someone who believes in fairies and goblins? To me there is no difference between such groups.
They have a right to believe what they want althought they do not have a right to influence how a modern, democratic society should evolve.


Well, speaking as an ex-Christian (now atheist), I would suggest that a follower of Christianity (shall we call vir Christian Scientist?) might respond that their leaders are following the word of God as laid down by Christ and that those teachings are as relevant to modern society as they were when they were first recorded, spoken, as they were, by a being which apparently had full knowledge of future events.

Ve would point out that members of religious organisations are also citizens of the society they exist within and, therefore, has as much right to have a say in the direction and development of that society as anyone else.

Christian Scientist might then also point out that, in the UK at least, they have as much right to freely state their opinion on any subject that does not contravene Freedom of Speech laws. People don't have to listen to them. Ve might well also note that, by suggesting that people of a particular philosophical slant are intellectually inferior and should not be given any space to express their views, you are fundamentally altering what vis perception of what a modern democratic society is all about.

Stepping back into my usual cynical ficsuit though (before we all get too freaked out by my defence of religion) I would also suggest that the big religions get more airtime and "say" in societal matters within a country like the UK because they are large, wealthy, international organisations with a shedload of influence with people from all walks of life, and so therefore weild a certain amount of material power.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:14 / 15.12.06
I think there may be some confusion here due to different local legal arrangements as regards religion and the state. In the US there is a formal separation, but in the UK the official religion is established which means, in particular, that the Church of England has bishops in the upper house, the House of Lords. Also, faith schools are publicly funded in the UK (though I am not sure if the funding is total, but I think it is pretty close). Other countries in Europe pay religious institutions from public funds - I'm not sure how many, and the precise nature of the arrangement differs.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:22 / 15.12.06
I did not know that. That is indeed a troubling thing.

The monarch is the putative head of the C of E, too, right?

I must admit, that gives me a shiver of schadenfreude, after all the stick that America has been getting recently over the nattering of know-nothing fundamentalists in public life. So who's living in a medieval Christianist theocracy now, smartasses?
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:32 / 15.12.06
So who's living in a medieval Christianist theocracy now, smartasses?

Yeah, but you should see the siege weapons we get.
 
 
grant
13:34 / 15.12.06
Also, Union Jack = crosses of George, Andrew & David.

In hoc signo vinces, baby. Think of that on the sides of the SAS choppers landing in Iraq.

Our guy only called it a crusade....
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:48 / 15.12.06
The flag of Saint David is a gold cross on a black field. Good luck finding those colours in the union flag. It's a bit of an issue.

Now, who can tie that in to Richard Dawkins, forgotten father of the thread? I talked about seven posts into this thread about the status of the Queen and the presence of bishops in the House of Lords. This being the case, why is it that the US is seen as the front line in the battles between rationalism and superstition?

And what is our model for a secular state? There is an argument that the US _ought_ to be... otherwise, France, perhaps?
 
 
multitude.tv
19:49 / 15.12.06
I’d wager it is a matter of social forces at play. From my experience, though many European nations have an official State religion, with other flavors tolerated, expressed, etc, the United States has no official State faith (though one could argue that “Christianity” as an umbrella designation serves this purpose socially).

These are rather old stats, but they may be helpful. It seems that compared to most other Western countries the US population could be described as very religious. Some folks say that it is because of the First Amendment that the US has such a religious make up.

For example, Thomas Paine: “For myself, I fully and conscientiously believe, that it is the will of the Almighty, that there should be a diversity of religious opinions among us: it affords a larger field for our Christian kindness. Were we all of one way of thinking, our religious dispositions would want matter for probation; and on this liberal principle, I look on the various denominations among us, to be like children of the same family, differing only, in what is called, their Christian names.”

There are particular centers of extreme religious belief such as Colorado City, Arizona and Hildale, Utah in the US. These are the population centers of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, their polygamy and in-breeding is evidenced in the abnormally high occurance of Fumarase deficiency, which causes mental retardation. From the Wiki: “Fumarase deficiency is extremely rare. Until a few years ago scientists knew of only thirteen cases worldwide. However, recently twenty additional cases have been documented in the border towns of Colorado City, Arizona, and Hildale, Utah”

The reason I find these areas interesting and the overall taste of Conservative Evangelical Christianity repulsive is that in public discourse in the US folks often complain that Iraqis have more allegiance to their form of Islam than to the State of Iraq. Generally I think the same is probably an accurate representation of the US population. That is, religious people in the US place their religious identification above their national loyalty. In short, I posit they are Christian before they are American but are the first to accuse a fellow countryman with whom they disagree "unpatriotic" or "unamerican".

Also, although, evidently (I didn’t know before this discussion) in the UK the Church of England has representation in the House of Lords, the US elects ministers fairly regularly to political office; and religious interest groups are very active in American political life.

It should be noted that in the US, in most of the country, the very term Atheist is a pejorative tied at least historically, in recent times, to the 1950’s pejorative “Communist”, meaning basically Un(anti)-American. “Under God” was added to the US Pledge of Allegiance in 1954, to contrast the Godly US against the Atheist Soviet Union. A Baptist minister, Francis Bellamy, originally penned the Pledge of Allegiance in 1892 to instill a sense of national unity following the Civil War (complete with an extended arm salute which was removed in favor of the over the heart position when the Nazis monopolized the gesture as their gig for history to come).

Interestingly, he did not include “Under God”, and even more intriguing, he was a socialist.

As for a model, I’m not so sure. France pretty much has a separation of Church and State, like the US, though most of the population (67% in 1994) seems to profess to be Catholic.

I think this is one of the reasons Dawkin is doing what he is doing, that is to inject Atheism into the public discourse in an aggressive (inflammatory?) way (perhaps the only language the far-Right responds too), so that the discussion can begin in the public sphere. This seems to be the trajectory of most civil rights issues (Dawkin explicitly compares his project to gay rights activism in public conversation), in the US. That is, they (civil rights) begin with a minority becoming very vocal about the issue, and then the gloves come off for a few years (or decades) until the population comes around, and the old, previous perspective becomes a refuge of intolerant fascist pricks. But I could be wrong.
 
 
grant
03:57 / 16.12.06
I sacrifice leeks in repentance to St. David and all his men. And women. (Or should it be shamrocks I should sacrifice while cultivating leeks?)

otherwise, France, perhaps?

There's always China.


----

I can't get around the idea that Dawkins (or at least his American counterparts) are simply making a rhetorical gesture in an attempt to... well, not steer the debate as much as simply be heard. They're certainly getting media coverage.

I'm more fascinated by something else that's going on simultaneously (although not, as far as I know, with any kind of intentional connection) with publicly proclaimed atheists like Julia Sweeney and Daniel Dennett saying, more or less, that it'd be a good idea to teach religion in public school.
 
 
multitude.tv
19:24 / 16.12.06
I can't get around the idea that Dawkins (or at least his American counterparts) are simply making a rhetorical gesture in an attempt to... well, not steer the debate as much as simply be heard. They're certainly getting media coverage.

I’m not so sure, it seems to be, especially after the God Delusion tour that public conversation on the Problem of Religion has increased in the US, this tied to the war in Iraq, as well as Warren Jeffs, the film Jesus Camp, as well as recent rifts within Evangelical Christianity in the wake of the most recent election; it seems like the major sects of Christianity in the US are wither in the process of re-evaluating (esp. in regards to poverty and the environment) their relationship to public and political life, and those that are just holding tighter to their guns (the “Harry Potter” is evil, homo-phobic, Armageddon junkies, etc).

Also, there is an increase, across many blogs, message boards, web based communication on the claims of Religion. Also there is more and more scientific inquiry into the nature and mechanisms of belief. It also seems (from holiday conversations with family members) that discussion of religion in the “break room” and “water cooler” has increased, and fear of confrontation is decreasing (that is Atheists aren’t just remaining passive and tolerant of being harassed by believers).

As far as teaching religion in schools in the US, I don’t have a problem with that either. What Dennet is talking about, and what most educators at the university level understand as the study of religion, that is, the comparative study of the appearance of religion in history.

Though I imagine there are a number of school systems that would take it as an opportunity to teach from a particular religious perspective, rather than the critical, historical, social study of religion. Imagine the confusion that would ensue. “Yes you can have a religion class, but you can’t favor one religion over another.”

In looking back to my high school days when I asked what Europeans believed before they were Christian the teacher looked confused and annoyed and replied rather glibly “they worshiped trees.” At least a class on the history of religions would (one would hope) limit that sort of superficial reply. Though, as a cynic, and as someone who spent a great deal of time working at one of the great US Universities that produces teachers, my hopes aren’t too high.

At that same Uni, there is a department of Comparative Religion; it is by far the most “threatening” divisions of the school in the eyes of Campus Crusade for Christ, which I find fascinating. That is, (unless informed otherwise by 2nd year Crusaders) religious folks tend to jump on the first chance to take a class in New Testament Studies (after all, they did so well in Sunday School), that they are horrified to discover, upon actually reading the text that it conflicts with itself, draws from other sources, isn’t exactly contemporaneous with Christ, the contents were chosen by a select group of bishops (with a publishing deadline) well after Christ, etc.
I think that the actual academic study of religion is perhaps one of the most damaging pursuits for those who cling to their faith.

I think some high schools should go ahead and use the university model of comparative religion in schools, and I am willing to bet that the first people who will be all up in arms are religious believers within the community (Fox News viewers in particular), precisely because all of a sudden their monopoly on soul, god, morality, etc becomes a localized farce in light of the history and diversity of religious belief in the world, with really no way to get around it (except of course to then say we want our kids to remain ignorant, which is what they really want to begin with).
 
 
sdv (non-human)
10:15 / 17.12.06
evade,

When you challenged Egg to name three mainstream religious leaders who have not condemned the irreligous or those belonging to other religions -- you were joking wern't you ?

steve
 
 
illmatic
12:00 / 17.12.06
You have your names mixed up sdv.

I was asking evade to justify this statement The problem is that most organized religions do hold their own truths to be self-evident and applicable for everyone, on pain of hell or rebirth with reference to contemporary real world examples.

As it is, I think it's pretty facile.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
16:18 / 17.12.06
you said above..

"could you name, let's say, three major religious leaders who've made these sort of statements?..."

But I accept that I was obviously misunderstanding the context. Still it's a very odd thing to say, given the actual behaviour and the statements made by religous leaders, their theological fellow travellers and theological states.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
16:44 / 17.12.06
The unmentioned problem with USA and Christianity which has not been clearly stated is that in the 1970s the neo-liberal Republican Party sought an active alliance with the christian right (I'm thinking of Falwell's moral majority 1978). this process resulted in the mergeing of the right wing republican party with a newly active group of equally right wing christians.

It's not a question of the USA being more secular in it's institutions but the way in which the central institutions have been colonized by the hegemonic allaince of two right wing groups. The last published survey suggested that 98% of american citizens believed in some kind of transcendental diety. The equivalent figure for the UK is 70% which is one of the lowest country specific figures in the world. This read in the light of the above might suggest why the new 'militant atheists' are even more required than multitude.tv has suggested above.

The 70% figure exists in part because of the nature of the established church in the UK. As Dawkins points out it's very easy to be an athiest or agnostic(counted in the 70% i believe) in the UK when the primary purpose of God is to support jurisprudence...

(Harvey in a brief history of neoliberalism is very good on how religion was used in the USA to construct the right-wing consensus that curses the place.)
 
 
el d.
16:47 / 17.12.06
Eggs, you could actually answer to the counterchallenge . hehe..

Is there any religious leader out there who thinks his own truths are only applicable for himself?

Truly, I´ve tried to meet that challenge, and the most challenging thing about it is that these contemporary examples are hard to find in the internet... their own pages of course mostly feature the "we love everybody" - stuff.

The point where most religions are quite alike is their regard of sexuality. John Paul II stated quite clearly that all homosexuals should simply not have sex. Of course, other than being "against nature", the pure act of having sex without wanting to father children is condemned.

So I guess, the popes condemn just about everybody. Well, except if you´re catholic yourself, then you could just go to confession and you´re loved by god again. If you´re not, well, you go to hell. That´s logic.

I must admit It was quite impossible finding this statement as it is in the words of the popes. They mostly like symbols and reaaallly long encyclicas. Now I know this was a strictly catholic example, but as I come from that direction, it was the nearest to grasp.

Just a nice citation I found during my search which I want to share with the ´lith:

“Primates often have trouble imagining an universe not run by an angry alpha male.”
 
 
illmatic
16:50 / 17.12.06
Still it's a very odd thing to say, given the actual behaviour and the statements made by religous leaders, their theological fellow travellers and theological states.

Well, with regards to Christianity, I am hard pressed to think of many modern examples of figures in major churches threatening hellfire on the followers or other religions. I can't imagine, say, Rowan Williams telling people they're going to go to hell if they don't join his church. I'm not quite sure what the Pope's current view on this is, but I'd be surprised if it isn't a lot more subtle than evade's statement allows for. I accept this may well be different on the evangelical fringes. I'm sure we could dig up a few radical mullahs preaching this against Christians, to use it as simple "proof" of religious bullying/irrationality seems to me to exclude the power relations and social causes underlying these statements.

As for the statement about "rebirth", well, if you're talking about Hinduism or Buddhism - this is again a bit of a crude strawman argument, which shows a real lack of understanding of these religions. The Dalai Lama's statements aren't backed up with crude threats of coming back as a louse if you don't do what he says.

I find a lot of the statements from atheists about religious believers on this thread to rely on this kind of caricaturing. People seem very quick to say what religious people think, without necessairily wanting to allow for any subtlety, doubt or a questioning attitude on the part of the believers.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
17:37 / 17.12.06
Nothing like actuality is there:

Two examples on Homosexuality spring immediately to mind and then some other relevant examples:

Islam during the Iranian Revolution ---- they hung homosexuals from lamp posts. (Khommani encouraged and approved). The Nigerian Christian Bishop has repeatedly stated that all homosexuals will burn in hell. The Pope on Islam... The Israeli Rabbis and their continuing encouragement of the oppressive treatment of Christians and Moslems. The shameful behavior in recent years of Hindu fundamentalist leaders and their hideous attempts to collude in the construction of a pure Hindu state.

'Hellfire' or 'degradation' in some form is always being threatened by religions and their leaders. It's shocking that you've missed these examples from the spectacle.
 
 
illmatic
18:38 / 17.12.06
sdv, the examples of atrocities in the name of religion that you've offered up are pretty hideous, yes, but to me, they don't prove evade's statement, which is what I was contesting. His statement certainly isn't true for mainstream Christianity in the UK, for instance, and he has thus far failed to turn up any evidence of it being true with regard to Catholicism. Also, as I said, that statement shows a significant lack of knowledge and understanding of Eastern religions.

He states that a major factor of religious appeal and authority is the implied violence of damnation or an inferior rebirth. I don't think this is true, and as I said, caricatures and simplifies a whole range of complex issues. These kind of threats are certainly a rhetorical device used by some religions at some times, but are not the sole reason for their authority, or indeed, their attraction.
 
 
nighthawk
19:31 / 17.12.06
sdv I've always felt that the reason that Harvey piece is so good (it's in his shorter essay on neo-liberalism, right?) is because he links the rise of the religious right in the US to social conditions which on the face of things have nothing to do with religion: the success of neoliberalism as a class-strategy in the face of social democratic reforms. Dawkins and his idiotic brand of atheism simply ignore all this, and brand most of the population stupid or irrational. To be honest I'm suprised you can be so keen on both Dawkins and Harvey, given that the former is so ideologically suspect... Its beyond the remit of this thread, but have you come across the criticisms of Dawkins sociobiology from people like Richard Lewontin and Steven Rose? I can't help but feel that his 'atheism' is similarly tarnished...
 
 
illmatic
21:14 / 17.12.06
There's an interesting interview here with Chomsky, talking about fundamentalism and it's links with political agendas.
 
 
multitude.tv
21:18 / 17.12.06
Not enough time to jump into this discussion all that much, but I do find this statement rather odd:

Eggs: am hard pressed to think of many modern examples of figures in major churches threatening hellfire on the followers or other religions.

Have you looked? What do you consider major? I suppose you mean globally, say modern day Catholics, but have you really looked into the massive Evangelical Christian rhetoric in the US?

I thought this article may be of interest to this discussion :
The Heresy of Intelligent Design
Teaser from the article: "I would like to explain why, in the matter of the origins of species, there can be no compromise position, no accommodation by one side of the principle tenets of the other. There can be no way of conceding the basic mechanisms through which evolution works while holding onto an anthropocentric view of the cosmos or a conception of human beings as unique among creatures in their likeness to the creator. It is time, in short, for evolutionists to be clear: you are either with us, or you are against us."-Justin Smith
 
 
el d.
21:43 / 17.12.06
eggs,

if you put it that way I absolutely agree. The point I was trying to make was not at all that the prospect of damnation is the only thing powering religion. I said:

The problem is that most organized religions do hold their own truths to be self-evident and applicable for everyone, on pain of hell or rebirth.

The whole damnation thing just features as a part of the major problems of religion, not one of the possible causes. I´m aware that many eastern religions accept the existance of many religous beliefs in a single believer. This still does not completely ban extremists from attacking non-believers though. And one of the reasons agressive religous behaviour is reasonable for the practitioner is : he wants to save the infidel from certain damnation, which will surely befall him when continuing to believe in yonder false god.

I´m aware that my postings have been somewhat of a caricaturesque nature. I mostly try to formulate my statements for rethoric effect, a method I should avoid in writing.

As to wether mainstream religion poses a problem in that respect for other religious practitioners: Mostly no, but basically yes. In Austria, a cross is hung in every classroom, regardless of the faith of the pupils. And catholic religion is taught by default unless the parents opt their child out. This is just a local example, but also theologically some religions still claim eventual world conversion to be a part of their goals. ( f.E. the roman catholics. )
 
 
el d.
09:39 / 18.12.06
I´d like to lead you guys to this thread as well for a gripping example of what religion is all about.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:48 / 18.12.06
Is that an example of what religion is all about?
 
 
illmatic
10:24 / 18.12.06
Have you looked? What do you consider major? I suppose you mean globally, say modern day Catholics, but have you really looked into the massive Evangelical Christian rhetoric in the US

No, not really. That was a bit of a throwaway comment aimed solely at evade because I didn’t think he’d be able to justify his statement. As he concedes, it was rhetoric. I was particuarly annoyed by the "rebirth" comment - I know enough Eastern religion to know what a load of contextless toss this was.

I’m aware of the excesses of Christian fundamentalistism as I am aware of Islamic. I’m also aware of many examples of religious thinking and practice which contradict the narrow, cruel and fanatical excesses mentioned above. Religion isn’t one single, homogenous mass that can be condemned easily. We are actually talking about a huge range of phenomena, many of which are so different the only thing they have in common is that they are somehow dumped in the open-ended and nebulous category religion. I can’t believe I'm saying something so simple in the Headshop. Normally, I'm a little too - not "intimidated", let's say aware of my shortcomings - to post and argue here but that seems to me an entry level understanding for discussing the issues involved.
 
 
el d.
11:58 / 18.12.06
Religion isn’t one single, homogenous mass that can be condemned easily.

The one point all religions do have in common:
It´s a theist way of looking at things. I concede the point that religion per se is not necessarily the only cause of violence, but it certainly gives explanations which are mostly contradictory. As I mentioned before, contradictions are the centerpiece of religion ( most importantly the contradiction between "soul" or "spirit" and base "matter" ).

Religious texts and philosophies can be used to justify a wide range of actions, some in contradiction with each other. The whole point of the atheist discourse is to transcend these defunct moral systems and find justification for life in life, not in some other ephemeral state reached after death. A moral system society can build without quoting ancient texts in thousands of different contexts, but, through analyzing perceived realities, find something that works for everybody and adapts to an ever-changing world.
This can work better without using a superior omniscient omnipotent monarch-judge-creator. In fact, I think democratic control is the only way to go here.

As to an example, note the condoms debate. Aids could be fought back much more easily if preachers of all colors would´nt ban condom use. This is a point where a democratically controlled system could act better than any religion. There´s a problem and there´s a solution, it just doesn´t fit the demographic doctrine of ages past.

Actually, there´s no problem in some people believing that the world was created in 7 days. The problem is that they often also believe themselves to be naturally superior and chosen to rule the earth ( Biblical example there ). And that moral and social systems founded on principles of subjugation ( of course, as long as the rulers favour the religion in question ) are still considered to be god-given by some. And that these beliefs are taught to children as the god-given truth.

As long as it´s relativistic, I´m okay with it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:26 / 18.12.06
As to an example, note the condoms debate. Aids could be fought back much more easily if preachers of all colors would´nt ban condom use.

So, all religions ban condom use, evade? Could you support this statement with examples?

This is a point where a democratically controlled system could act better than any religion.

The part of this that makes no sense to me is that most of the systems currently fighting AIDS are civil governments rather than religious organisations. And, indeed, many of those civil governments are democratically elected. The US government, for example, is providing stumbling blocks to the successful propagation of condom use through controlling aid funding. Is this decision based on religion? Perhaps so, but it is a decision reached by a democratically elected government.

The argument about contradiction seems a bit confused at present - is your contention that once one throws off the shackles of a theistic view of the universe, one is freed from any risk of contradiction or personal inconsistency, evade?
 
 
illmatic
12:33 / 18.12.06
The whole point of the atheist discourse is to transcend these defunct moral systems and find justification for life in life, not in some other ephemeral state reached after death.

I'd argue that's the purpose of a lot of religious discourse also. A proportion of this discourse, in every religon, seems to me to be concerned with "how to live well" - rather than concerns about the afterlife. Actually, you are leaning towards to part of atheism I do find more appealing which is necessity for the construction of humanistic values. I don't have any major problem with anything you've said there - it's the just the dismissive generalities I mentioned above that I was reacting to.
 
 
illmatic
12:46 / 18.12.06
Actually, I've read that the Pope is likely to reverse his prohibtion on condom use soon, which would obviously be a great thing. Part of the reaon is the real world situation in Africa, but part of the reason is the fact that a lot of Catholics in the Western world completely ignore this prohibition. So, I think this situation as presented with religious dictat as completely "top down" and unresponsive to the real world is not entirely accurate.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
13:15 / 18.12.06
Nighthawk,

Re: the comment on Harvey - yes nicely put. What the text by Harvey does in addition is show the limitations of religious discourse, when engaged in any and all socio-political events.

I believe that the Dawkins position is forgivable because it is precisely a polemical text rather than a philosophical argument. What people often misunderstand, at least as far as i can tell, is that philosophical positions are much less forgiving of 'religion' even than Dawkins, it is just that the tone is gentler.

I hate to think of how many seminars |I have been to over the years where supposedly religious philosophers (Jean-Luc Nancy springs to mind) looking with horror or pity at someone trying to interpret a statement they have just made referring to 'god' in christian/religious terms... At times it's been do bad that I've felt like supporting the poor sap.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
13:29 / 18.12.06
Nighthawk,

Dawkins sociobiology is interesting, and I'm familiar with the Rose and Lewontin critiques but these are essentially scientific critiques - philosophically through I'd recommend Elizabeth Groscz's work which in the long run is a stronger critique of sociobiology, because she attacks the root of the problem using Bergson, Neitzsche etc.

I think I should add, that of course I recognize that Dawkins is ideologically suspect. But what is surprising me is that this is not being discussed and instead the entire toolbox is being attacked as if unusable...(A bit like dumping Alain Badiou because he likes Mao or my refusing Kant because of his transcendentalism).
 
 
eib
13:35 / 18.12.06
To answer some points made
"I'm not sure I understand who you think is "giving" them a platform. Their followers? The government? I don't think the latter is actually happening. "

The media. Mass media

"Because no one is being forced into any category? Because everyone has a choice as to what group they want to be in? Because it is absolutely nothing at all like apartheid, and the comparison is sort of silly"

Erm not really CHILDREN do not have a choice on what category they fall into. Were yo given a choice as to whether you were baptised or not? Or whether you should go to a religious school? Thought not
 
 
sdv (non-human)
13:41 / 18.12.06
The whole point of the atheist discourse is to transcend these defunct moral systems....

The implication is that the defunkt moral systems are based on morals and ethics descended from religion. (I hesitate to remind you how enlightenment this seems...) I was wondering how you respond to the work of the 'ex-Bishop of Edinburgh Richard Holloway', who makes a very good case for seperating religion completely from morality and ethics. On the basis that ethical human behavior has no necessary relationship with religion. This may seem obvious but he is an ex-bishop...
 
 
eib
13:42 / 18.12.06
Eggs. I'm happy to hear you "read" somewhere the Pope will soon reverse his opinion on the use of condoms (no matter tho - only 20 years and 15m people too late!)
I will believe it however, when I see it
 
  

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