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Richard Dawkins

 
  

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sdv (non-human)
13:12 / 19.01.07
toksik,

You are right i am making some sweeping generalizations, it happens if you insist on addressing religion as an insitution. But it's easier to work around the universals involved because of the well documented history than to try and address the probabilities of the situation. Besides unlike you i do recognize the overall correctness of Dawkins argument. (Laughs -- did you enjoy the Transcendental references... ?) Besides I'm heartily sick of hearing about someones personal experiences being used as an excuse for justifying any and all religious institutions appalling behaviour...

You imply that churches and the believers can accept social change even though these are nearly always contrary to the religious ideologies ? I'm not asking for examples because there are so few, even what I would regard as the most banal and harmless changes, equality for women and homosexuals, to mention just two...

"Some people" oh toksik... that is like talking about good fascists... What we are talking of is religion and faith, not that because a good person exists we can accept the appalling aspects of their ideology...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:25 / 19.01.07
Have we already had the Godwin moment in this thread, or was that the first one?
 
 
Char Aina
13:32 / 19.01.07
so religious people are now akin to fascists?
leaving that alone for now...

unlike you i do recognize the overall correctness of Dawkins argument.

where have i said anything to give you that impression?

if you don't wish to retract that, then i think you need to do two things.
firstly, you need to explain what you mean by dawkin's argument in this instance- he has written an awful lot, and much of it on the topic under discussion- and secondly you need to link to a post where i have demonstrated the recognition you claim i lack and you possess.

if, as i currently believe, you are assuming my position on dawkins based on your assumptions regarding my position on religion, i think it only serves to demonstrate your bias, and what i consider your prejudice against anyone you feel comes under the broad term 'religious'.
 
 
illmatic
13:52 / 19.01.07
Besides I'm heartily sick of hearing about someones personal experiences being used as an excuse for justifying any and all religious institutions appalling behaviour.

Reading comprehension again SDV - can you point to one person in this thread who has done that?
 
 
Char Aina
14:03 / 19.01.07
if you insist on addressing religion as an insitution

i don't.
it appears you do.
why?
 
 
sdv (non-human)
14:37 / 19.01.07
Toksik,

Why don't you like the reference to institutions ?

You are correct I am a militant athiest, which does have a profound and obvious meaning Toksik, for it implies that I am not only against religion but also against the miltantly religious and the fellow travellers. Is this prejudice, perhaps it is, but you see there is that little matter of truth and what happens when people achieve a little to much power...

Humm fascism... from w. lewis to john gray and latter day ecological ethicists it's a complex term... but you knew that right ? so yes religious people are akin to fascists.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
14:38 / 19.01.07
eggs,

yes they have every time they want to justify religious practices....usually because there is no other justification...
 
 
Char Aina
14:45 / 19.01.07
i think you misunderstand me.


'religion' is a massively nebulous thing, describing many different ways of thinking and many different beliefs. it is not possible to make a useful generalisation about religion as you have done, because it is not one thing. it is not even close to one thing.

when you insist on addressing religion as an insitution you are addressing varied view points numbering between several million and several billion as though they are one entity, one institution.

this is not helpful, and marks you as prejudiced against the 'other', the 'them' you percieve religion to be.
your prejudice is damaging to your argument, and is making it very hard to take youropinions seriously.

please read my posts again, and please also explain or retract your statement about my position on dawkins.
 
 
Char Aina
14:47 / 19.01.07
i also suggest you reread eggs' post, and particularly the words 'point to'.
 
 
illmatic
14:53 / 19.01.07
Yes, could you quote an exact post please? Should be easy enough. 'Cos I've read the whole thread through and I must've missed 'em. What you're seeing as justifying any and all religious institutions appalling behaviour isn't the same as refusing to condem every religious person out of hand.
 
 
illmatic
15:00 / 19.01.07
Incidentally, Sam Harris is one person who doesn't do this. IIRC, he has quite a bit of respect for Taoism and several other Eastern religions. This shows a subtlety of thought which Dawkins lacks IMO.
 
 
multitude.tv
15:34 / 19.01.07
'religion' is a massively nebulous thing, describing many different ways of thinking and many different beliefs. it is not possible to make a useful generalisation about religion as you have done, because it is not one thing. it is not even close to one thing.

ok, you don't like generalizations of institutions. So we can't talk about "science", "art", "politics", "medicine", "republicans", "democrats", "Americans", "Iraqi's", "the French", "Pirates", "Hollywood", "writing", "capital punishment", etc, really any various multitude of people, correct?

I agree with SDV here; I find the arrows being thrown in his direction to be utterly unconvincing. Religion as an institution has a history, has organizations, is made of of specific styles of organization, etc. This is even more so in the West, where historically "Religion" only designated Christianity for quite some time.

Usually, we are speaking of Judaism-Christianity-Islam, and the history of the institutions associated with these labels. All of these institutions of course have many more alterations, historically, geographically, racially, economically, etc. Yes it is a very complicated manner.

However, what Dawkins is getting at is those who believe in god. That's pretty much what he means by "Religion." I agree that religious institutions are akin to fascist institutions; and just because there may be innumerable pleasant fascists doesn't mean we can't talk about "fascists" in general, or more specifically "fascist" institutions".

In fact an equally coherent argument (anti-colonialist) can be made against the attribution of the Western term/category/understanding of what "religion" is (Christianity) to the practices, beliefs, ceremonies, etc of non-Westerns folks. That is, even calling what the various divergent, multifaceted practices and beliefs "religion" is the reduction of those beliefs to a Euro-centric violence of understanding. In fact, that's pretty much how we came to call these practices "religious", originally designated as "false religions" in light of Christian mission work. The "false" was eventually dropped as academics became, themselves more and more critical of Christianity.
 
 
Char Aina
15:59 / 19.01.07
do you include such 'arrows' as being asked to back up his assumption about my position on dawkins, and eggs request for evidence of his generalistaion regarding experience?
 
 
Char Aina
16:08 / 19.01.07
"republicans"

republicans are a party which has a core manifesto. there arent very many of them, and their opinions are quite closely aligned. there is disagreement on some stuff, but it is often useful to characterise their position as one position, as they fight elections as one entity in one country.

religion is far, far wider, and includes many more positions, positions that often contradoct each other. there are deists and non-deists, evangelists, and those who feel evangelism is offensive. it includes those who belive that state should be kept seperate from religion, and those who feel that to do so is a travesty. it includes some who feel that science is an attack on religion, and some who feel it is a different tool for a different job.
all these positions and more, and everything inbetween.

your comparison is flawed, and seems to be ignorant of the reality of 'religion'.

in my opinion, when SDV suggests that religious people have a problem with X, he is wrong. not all do, because there are so many religions and so many approaches to all those religions.

if he or anyone else wishes to make such outrageously sweeping generalisations, i feel there should be a lot more evidence than has currently been offered.

i also feel that way about his, frankly, bigoted and poorly elucidated comparison to fascism.
 
 
multitude.tv
16:34 / 19.01.07
Toksic,

calm down and have something to eat.


do you include such 'arrows' as being asked to back up his assumption about my position on dawkins,

Why don't you just tell us.

"republicans"

republicans are a party which has a core manifesto. there arent very many of them, and their opinions are quite closely aligned. there is disagreement on some stuff, but it is often useful to characterise their position as one position, as they fight elections as one entity in one country.


Sorry, but no. Republicans are a political party, republicans are those that "believe", "prefer", etc in the form of government of a Republic.

religion is far, far wider, and includes many more positions, positions that often contradoct each other. there are deists and non-deists, evangelists, and those who feel evangelism is offensive. it includes those who belive that state should be kept seperate from religion, and those who feel that to do so is a travesty. it includes some who feel that science is an attack on religion, and some who feel it is a different tool for a different job.
all these positions and more, and everything inbetween.


Like I said, in a futile effort to relate this to the thread it seems, Dawkin's, I think, is talking about those that believe in a creator god.

your comparison is flawed, and seems to be ignorant of the reality of 'religion'.

what sort of "reality" does "religion" have?

in my opinion, when SDV suggests that religious people have a problem with X, he is wrong. not all do, because there are so many religions and so many approaches to all those religions.

just like when someone says, "humans have two eyes" is "Wrong"! because plenty of folks have one eye, or no eyes. Sorry, it seems I don't see your point, beyond the fact that you don't like "generalizations". I'm happy for you

if he or anyone else wishes to make such outrageously sweeping generalisations, i feel there should be a lot more evidence than has currently been offered.

i also feel that way about his, frankly, bigoted and poorly elucidated, comparison to fascism.


Thanks for sharing your feelings with us.
 
 
Char Aina
17:11 / 19.01.07
Why don't you just tell us.

my position on dawkins is irrelevant to the point i was making, friend. i shall get to it when SDV has answered my questions and explained why he already seems to know my position.

Republicans are a political party, republicans are those that "believe", "prefer", etc in the form of government of a Republic.

my apologies.
i see your distinction.
the group 'republicans' is larger than 'Republicans', of course. my point was the difference between useful and useless generalisations, a distinction i still think is important.
the beliefs of republicans can be usefully generalised when talking about those things that they share, such as teh belief you outline. one cannot usefully generalise about their tastes in music, say, or their sexual preferences.

with 'religion' the group is so much more nebulous, and it is very hard to say much about it as a whole.


Like I said, in a futile effort to relate this to the thread it seems, Dawkin's, I think, is talking about those that believe in a creator god.

that isnt what SDV said, though. i wouldnt have asked him about his post if i thought it was. 'those who believe in a creator god' is a different set from 'those who are religious'. SDV has repeatedly generalised about religion in ways i found of no use to the discussion.
that was my point, and one he has failed to acknowledge to my satisfaction.

your comparison is flawed, and seems to be ignorant of the reality of 'religion'.

what sort of "reality" does "religion" have?


perhaps i was not clear enough. my apologies for that. the reality of religion i refer to is that reality of the situation.
religions exist, and those religions are many and varied. that is the reality to which i refer.
i think if one wishes to discuss a particular type of religion one should be clear, and resist the urge to describe all religion as one thing. you mean creator-god religions? say so. you mean abrahamic faiths? say so. you mean religion as practised by fundamentalist chiristians? say so.
once one has been clear, one should be sure not to make generalisations about the group to whom one refers that are problematic, such as SDV's assertion that those who are religious actually have [..] many problems with liberalism when in fact many do not.



just like when someone says, "humans have two eyes" is "Wrong"! because plenty of folks have one eye, or no eyes. Sorry, it seems I don't see your point, beyond the fact that you don't like "generalizations".

no, not really like that at all.
humans have two eyes unless they have suffered a birth defect or mutation, or have been involved in an accident. approaches to religion vary massively, and massively more than the eyball count ever does. people are not deviating from a 'religious belief norm' in doing so. there is a standard eyeball count, but there is nothing like as standard a religious view.

my point, which i have stated, is that i don't see the worth in useless generalisations.


calm down and have something to eat.
...
I'm happy for you
....
Thanks for sharing your feelings with us.


if i have read sarcasm into your posts that isnt there, i apologise. if not, then please include less of that sort of comment in posts directed at me.
 
 
multitude.tv
18:07 / 19.01.07
toksik

my position on dawkins is irrelevant to the point i was making, friend. i shall get to it when SDV has answered my questions and explained why he already seems to know my position.

not even a hint?

my point was the difference between useful and useless generalisations, a distinction i still think is important.

Ok, when is a generalization "useful" and when is it "useless"? And, "useful" for what?

with 'religion' the group is so much more nebulous, and it is very hard to say much about it as a whole.

This is a historical and recent ambiguity. "Religion" when used in the West up until a few decades ago, and within large portions of the West to this day, as a synonym for Christianity. That is, until the term was generalized in the first place Religion=Christianity; so it seems to me, that if one didn't like generalizations one would refuse, or resist the habit of reducing what non-Western cultures do as particularly "religious" (that is similar to the way Christians do things).

That is, why call Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism religion at all?

'those who believe in a creator god' is a different set from 'those who are religious'.

What does the set of those who are religious include?

SDV has repeatedly generalised about religion in ways i found of no use to the discussion.

would there be a way that was "useful for this discussion". How do you suggest we talk about "religion"?

perhaps i was not clear enough. my apologies for that. the reality of religion i refer to is that reality of the situation.
religions exist, and those religions are many and varied. that is the reality to which i refer.


Which situation? (is there only one?) How do they exist? Like Rocks exists? Like unicorns? Like television shows? Like yesterday? Like light? Like thought?

I think religions exist like institutions, how about you?

i think if one wishes to discuss a particular type of religion one should be clear, and resist the urge to describe all religion as one thing.

Again, you seem to be saying that there is a set of "religion" that describes something, something some of us "just aren't getting"; and that there are useful and non-useful ways to discuss this. Please, share.

you mean creator-god religions? say so. you mean abrahamic faiths? say so. you mean religion as practised by fundamentalist chiristians? say so.

I think of religion in terms of the institution of religion; that is, religion insofar as it is institutional, and more explicitly, the institution of Christianity (and more generally, Abrahamic faiths)

once one has been clear, one should be sure not to make generalisations about the group to whom one refers that are problematic, such as SDV's assertion that those who are religious actually have [..] many problems with liberalism when in fact many do not.

Well, I think he's correct in that assertion (as it regards the West), but I'd replace "are" religious with "those who self-identify as" religious.

no, not really like that at all.
humans have two eyes unless they have suffered a birth defect or mutation, or have been involved in an accident. approaches to religion vary massively, and massively more than the eyball count ever does. people are not deviating from a 'religious belief norm' in doing so.


See, I disagree, as I said before, Religion historically in the West refers to Christianity; everything else is, by and large "a deviation from the norm."

there is a standard eyeball count, but there is nothing like as standard a religious view.

Again, in the West, I think there is a religious norm of Christianity. Other religions are "alternative."

my point, which i have stated, is that i don't see the worth in useless generalisations.

But how do you decide what is a useful and useless generalization? And useful or useless for what?
 
 
multitude.tv
04:27 / 20.01.07
Oh, Just saw this recent interview posted on alternet.
 
 
Char Aina
09:26 / 20.01.07
one article here and another here too.
(found via plasticbag)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:55 / 20.01.07

This is a historical and recent ambiguity. "Religion" when used in the West up until a few decades ago, and within large portions of the West to this day, as a synonym for Christianity. That is, until the term was generalized in the first place Religion=Christianity; so it seems to me, that if one didn't like generalizations one would refuse, or resist the habit of reducing what non-Western cultures do as particularly "religious" (that is similar to the way Christians do things).

That is, why call Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism religion at all?


Well, because they are religions. From the latin religare, to tie. Descrbing a set of beliefs about the universe and its creation and management, tied also often to rituals or maintenance of a relationship with the divine.

If we want to start talking about Christianity, then it might be wise to state early and often that this is the only religion you believe to be relevant to this discussion.
 
 
Char Aina
11:30 / 20.01.07
would there be a way that was "useful for this discussion". How do you suggest we talk about "religion"?

the onus is not on me to find a useful way to generalise about religion. i have stated that i feel it is too nebulous a group, and that specifics shoud be used.
if you or SDV feel there is a useful way to generalise, you shouud define and defend that way.


How do they exist? Like Rocks exists? Like unicorns? Like television shows? Like yesterday? Like light? Like thought?

I think religions exist like institutions, how about you?


some do, sure.
some religious practice is not institutional, though. see previous posts about the nebulous nature of what can fairly be called religious.


i think if one wishes to discuss a particular type of religion one should be clear, and resist the urge to describe all religion as one thing.


Again, you seem to be saying that there is a set of "religion" that describes something, something some of us "just aren't getting"; and that there are useful and non-useful ways to discuss this. Please, share.


no, i think you misread me.
i am suggesting that one should resist the urge to describe all religion as one thing. i'm not sure why that seems like i am suggesting "religion" [...] describes something, let alone something [that you] "just aren't getting".

could you explain why you characterise my position like that? i havent said anything about you 'just not getting' anything, as far as i can see. if i have and have missed it, please point me at the relevant post.

I think of religion in terms of the institution of religion; that is, religion insofar as it is institutional, and more explicitly, the institution of Christianity (and more generally, Abrahamic faiths)

please say institutionalised religion, then, and please be clear when you mean institutionalised abrahamic faiths and when you don't in your posts.

Well, I think he's correct in that assertion (as it regards the West), but I'd replace "are" religious with "those who self-identify as" religious.

i feel like i am not being listened to.
forgive me, i must still be being opaque.

there are those who self identify as religious who have no problem with liberalism, as i have pointed out with links above. the problem i had, and the problem i have been trying to describe in different ways, is that the statement those who are religious actually have [..] many problems with liberalism or those who those who self-identify as religious actually have [..] many problems with liberalism without qualifying it is demonstrably false.

Again, in the West, I think there is a religious norm of Christianity. Other religions are "alternative."

if you wish to discuss the predominant western religions, then say so. stop saying 'religion' as though it always means exactly what you want it to mean and clarify with each usage what you mean.

be clear.

be clear, so as not to condemn all religion and religious practice for the faults of some.
 
 
multitude.tv
17:34 / 20.01.07
the onus is not on me to find a useful way to generalise about religion. i have stated that i feel it is too nebulous a group, and that specifics shoud be used.
if you or SDV feel there is a useful way to generalise, you shouud define and defend that way.


I'm pretty ok with Haus' definition (keepping in mind it is a Western generalization in the first place) Religion is

a set of beliefs about the universe and its creation and management, tied also often to rituals or maintenance of a relationship with the divine.

What I mean by religion, again, if I am not clear, is what we in the West have described as religion to the West. Pretty much Haus' definition. Although I do think those that force this term (laden with such a bloody and bigoted history of its own) upon non-Western practices are being rather Euro-centric. Furthermore, those that think somehow that "religion" is a natural category are those subjects that have been more informed into viewing Euro-centric colonial world as some sort of natural universal norm applicable to all people everywhere at all times.
 
 
el d.
10:05 / 22.01.07
Let’s define this "religion" thingy then, shall we?

I’ll add something so as to get this a bit more precise.

Describing a fixed set of beliefs about the universe and its creation and management, tied also often to rituals or maintenance of a relationship with the divine.

This excludes some strains of Buddhism, by the way.

Now, we have the divine as another undefined factor there. I’d define it as the belief in a number of entities from 1-n who, by nature of their being, control, create, influence, care about or otherwise meddle with the material world. These entities do not exist in this plane we live in, but on another plane. One of the central properties of this other dimension is it’s elusiveness as to any experiments conducted by us. Actually, this plane could no longer exist if it were provable, because it’s defined by not being part of our perceived reality (the material world.)

So, we actually have quite a few logical flaws in there, most importantly the exclusion of logic. (Assuming the existence of something which can by definition never be observed in any way.) Can everybody agree with this? Religion is per definitionem not logical.

Then we have religious institutions . These comprise elements of society. If we furthermore believe society to be controlled not in equal distribution by it´s members, but by different members in different amounts according to their pecuniary worth, it is probable to assume these institutions to be largely governed by the interests of those in power.

Christianity is a wonderful example for this phenomenon, the whole "turning of the other cheek" thing is very comfortable for the one dealing the blows. (Pardon me for that stale argument, I just can’t help myself. It’s meant mostly as a symbolic illustration of the plight of the European plebs for just about the whole of the Middle Ages and beyond. Also very interesting in that respect: Martin Luther and the reformation’s ties to the duchies of Germany). Well, enough of that, back to the point before endless bickering over whatever ensues.

The point being: Religions, because of their illogical nature, tend to project that view of the world on their perceived reality. (Using a set of assumptions on a set of data produces results according to these assumptions.) If one assumes divine intervention to be omnipresent (I guess this is a quite common belief, although probably not shared by animistic belief systems) then the status quo is to be seen as the one created by the divine, making it divine per se.

The rules about changing the status quo and human free will differ greatly, even in the big three ( Christianity, Judaism, Islam ) there’s disagreement on that point.
Now, to get the gist of this: As soon as the religion has reached the status of a dominant institution, it will act as a dominant institution, and accordingly change its belief system so as to accommodate the needs of the ruling elite. This can be legitimized easily by the inherent properties of divinity. Please note the changes in the Roman Catholic Church (before and after becoming the official church of the Roman Empire), or the different permutations of Buddhism.

Now for some rambling:
As a religion gets older, it loses much of its power because of the logical flaws between its teachings and its actions, only to be supplanted by a religion with more fervour and more fanaticism, to speak with Nietzsche: with the lust, will, need for power.

The illogical foundations of religion serve to power an illogical state of governance, of hierarchy, of servitude. (Of course, mostly after it’s permutation to an institution of some sort. ) Back to everyone’s favourite example, the Christian church: At the beginning the doctrines were quite "revolutionary", in the sense of eliminating social differences (everyone equal before god, the good Samaritan etc...) Then came the kings powered by god, obey thy master as a central virtue, the "ablasshandel", etc... Some of these doctrines have been eliminated, but only some.

I hope I made my point clear this time without offending anyone.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
15:31 / 22.01.07
I'm bemused that egg amongst others is unable to consider some of the posts here as related to 'personal experiences', interesting way of reading them. Not mine however... Incidentally I also reread the posts and confirmed that the reading was correct.
 
 
Char Aina
15:37 / 22.01.07
did you reread the post where he asked you to point to specific posts?
because i feel you should address why you have not done so or preferably, just do so.

it is very hard to know, in a thread of seven pages, which posts you are referring to. please, be specific about what has made you heartily sick, which personal experiences [are] being used as an excuse for justifying any and all religious institutions appalling behaviour relate the points you make to specific posts so that we can understand what you mean.

be clear, and be specific.
stop asserting vaguely and start addressing clearly, please.
 
 
Ex
15:41 / 22.01.07
Incidentally I also reread the posts and confirmed that the reading was correct.

Cool. Which ones in particular confirmed your reading?
 
 
Ex
15:41 / 22.01.07
Sorry, cross-post with toksik.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:47 / 22.01.07
Evade - I'm not sure exactly where logic comes into your formulation. Logic is the study of acontextual reasoning structures. I'm sort of assuming that you are using it in a less accurate sense of "rational, reasonable, susceptible to argument". In which case, however, I'm not sure how an institution of power based on religion differs from any other institution of power. Is it just that the precepts are more irrational than, say, a capitalist or aristocratic power base?

Also, I'm not sure about the big three you've picked out. There are more Hindus than Jews, surely? And Hinduism has been around for a lot longer than Islam. What are the criteria?
 
 
Char Aina
15:50 / 22.01.07
"Some people" oh toksik... that is like talking about good fascists... What we are talking of is religion and faith, not that because a good person exists we can accept the appalling aspects of their ideology...

why do you add dots a after so many sentences? is there a meaning behind the trailing off device you employ that might help me understand your points better?

anyway.
moving on from what may well be a stylistic touch rather than one intended to give added meaning;

i still feel your reading of my posts was flawed, and i wish to further clarify in case that is partly my fault.

you say i am asking you to talk about some religious people as if i was asking you to remember that there are nice fascists.
no, i am not. i asked you to reread, because you seem to have mistaken my point, that there are those who are religious who dont actually have so many problems with liberalism, as they are in fact liberals.
if you wish to stick by the point you have made, i feel you will have to explain it more fully, and with examples.

your analogy is flawed, and i feel you are intelligent enough to recognise that if you read the posts properly.

i have not said 'some religious people are good'. i have said that the group you describe as having problems with liberalism contains many different ideologies, some of which have no problems with liberalism.

i gave you the two first hits for 'religious liberal' on google, and both demonstrate that your assumption is false.

please, explain why you havent egaged with my posts as i asked you to, and why you havent answered eggs' request for evidence of your accusation.
 
 
multitude.tv
18:19 / 22.01.07
why do you add dots a after so many sentences? is there a meaning behind the trailing off device you employ that might help me understand your points better?

I realize your asking SDV's usage, but just fyi,

... is an ellipsis... from the wiki...

"An ellipsis is sometimes used to indicate a pause in speech, an unfinished thought or, at the end of a sentence, a trailing off into silence (aposiopesis). Ellipses are often used in this manner for internet chat, email, and forum posts."

And, I like the mathematical usage:
"The centred ellipsis is also often used in mathematics to mean “and so forth,”
 
 
sdv (non-human)
18:19 / 22.01.07
toksik,

simply haven't had the time...

The understanding of your reading of Dawkins derives from the off-list emails that you sent to me. If you believe that I have misinterpreted your reading of the book or books then it might be useful to explain to everybody in what sense my understanding of your critique of Dawkins 'God Delusion' is mistaken.

The institution question is interesting - I am using this term in a contemporary sense - which is say that all institutions are both disciplinary or post-disciplinary, they are understood as technologies of power. This can be considered against religion in the obvious senses, of bio-political etc. But to be clear it is also the case that I'd apply similar logic to both hetrosexual and homosexual relationships, psychotherapist-client relations. I would also suggest that the assemblage of human-religion-state is an alternative way of understanding these institutional relations. (...as an aside i once went to a spiritual church, an enjoyable experience full of non-existant roman soldiers and poet assasins, that was as insitutionalized as any religious experience you might have anywhere else.)

(Similarly do I need to quote Foucault and Deleuze on fascism?)

And so you have established that some religious groups don't have a problem with 'liberalism' and that you are referring to 'many different ideologies' - sorry what exactly does this mean ?

I didn't answer Eggs post Toksik because I simply refuse to get involved in textual analysis of notes, though since off-list you referred to exactly one case of this on this list I'm amused by your response.
 
 
illmatic
18:41 / 22.01.07
I didn't answer Eggs post Toksik because I simply refuse to get involved in textual analysis of notes

That's extraordinarily convenient, isn't it? It isn't like anyone would just make something up for the sake of winning an argument....

Offtopic but...

(Similarly do I need to quote Foucault and Deleuze on fascism?)

No, it's simpler and easier to assume that everyone else has read exactly the same things as you have, and agrees with your interpretation.
 
 
illmatic
19:00 / 22.01.07
BTW I'm aware that several posters have drawn on their own personal experience in putting forward a case for religion. (See this post for instance. See, a link I did it and so can you!)

... but what I don't see in that post, or indeed any others on this thread is this experience used this as used as an excuse for justifying any and all religious institutions appalling behaviour.
 
 
Char Aina
19:14 / 22.01.07
The understanding of your reading of Dawkins derives from the off-list emails that you sent to me.

i did not say i thought dawkins' book was not a valid work, nor that i didnt accept the overall validity of his argument in the god delusion. i have recommended the book to sevral people, and think his work is often brilliant.

you said
Besides unlike you i do recognize the overall correctness of Dawkins argument.

please tell me which aspects of dawkins work i do not find to be correct., and please explain why it is to be 'recognised'. you sound an awful lot like an evangelist, and i wonder why you feel this is appropriate.


If you believe that I have misinterpreted your reading of the book or books then it might be useful to explain to everybody in what sense my understanding of your critique of Dawkins 'God Delusion' is mistaken.

could you pleae tell me what your understanding of my critique is? all i know is that you feel i don't recognize the overall correctness of Dawkins argument, which is a very vague statement based on, from what i can tell, absolutely nothing i have said.

I'd apply similar logic to both hetrosexual and homosexual relationships, psychotherapist-client relations.

you've lost me.
are these relationships like fascism too?



(Similarly do I need to quote Foucault and Deleuze on fascism?)

you do if yo are relying heavily on a particular aspect of their work, yes.


And so you have established that some religious groups don't have a problem with 'liberalism' and that you are referring to 'many different ideologies' - sorry what exactly does this mean ?


'religion', as a group, is a massively varied group. there are many different ideologies within, and many of them conflict with each other.
your statement, about those who are religious, doesnt seem to take that into account.

do you understand that there is no one religious mindset, and that religious people have political beliefs of all kinds?


I didn't answer Eggs post Toksik because I simply refuse to get involved in textual analysis of notes, though since off-list you referred to exactly one case of this on this list I'm amused by your response.

you have engaed with textual analyisis already, and have done so without being specific.
i have spoken to you in PM, yes, but no one else will ever be privvy to that conversation. eggs is asking you to back up your assertion, and i think his request is fair.
i have pointed his request out to you to make it clear that his request is there, and that i agree with him that you should be made to back up your assertion.


you referred to exactly one case of this

no, i didnt.
i referred to what you described as one case of this, and i did not at any point agree that this was what was happening. i was explaining to you why i felt you had the wrong end of the stick.
that was in no way an acceptance on my part of the terms of your description.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
20:32 / 22.01.07
eggs,

The quotes would be from the intro to anti-oedpius and deleuze writing foucault.
 
  

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