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Agnostic or Atheist

 
  

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Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:02 / 01.12.06
If this was true, there would be no discovery, no learning, no theorizing, no propositions, no imagination and no growth. We can experience things without understanding them.

And a similar post from Quantum....

You misunderstand. It's not that we are incapable of acquiring knowledge outside of experience. We can all acquire more knowledge, add to our personal knowledge from the knowledge of our time, even add to the knowledge of our time.

The first step, naturally, is language. We are born without it. We acquire it, from our culture, from our family, from each other, wherever. It then delimits our experience. It would seem to be the beginning of separation.

In the beginning was the Word, yes? Even that nothing-to-you, doesn't exist fairy tale God allegedly had to use language to create the entire Universe, in that silly story. Language creates the Universe? What on Earth?

Hermes, Woden, Thoth, Mercury...all language guardians...silly, I know, but there you have it. These ideas, which are not real, or not as real as a carrot, nonetheless are as widespread amongst unrelated cultures across centuries as...well...as real stuff. They have some kind of reality, they exist just like your thoughts exist, just like grief exists, just like joy exists, they have 'isness'.

That we are able to 'know' things we haven't experienced is obvious. Though, its arguable if thats 'really' knowing...I haven't experienced Antarctica, but I 'know' it's there.

But in the absence of knowledge there can be no experience. In fact, in the complete absence of any knowledge there is absolutely no experience. Because without it, there is no experiencer. Just a unitary movement of sensation - sensed. Your perceptual organs do not require the intervention of your memory and it's knowledge of what they contain to function. Not at all. Your knowledge of what is flowing within them is completely unnecessary to their perfect, harmonious functioning. Without your description, based on what you know, there is no experiencer and hence no experience. Because your knowledge of sensation is the experiencer...

Only if 'you' intervene and catalogue, name and describe the movement does experience arise. This is what 'you' do constantly, because if 'you' don't, 'you' cease to exist, and all that remains is Unitary. The experiencing structure fears this more than anything else, the exposure to itself of its own ephemerality, it's own transparency, it's illusory nature, and so creates the illusion of continuity, endlessly stringing thoughts together, utilising memory and knowledge to create experience and hence the experiencer. Ask Ev. He'll tell you. Without this movement, this cascade of reference to your knowledge, all that remains is a perfectly functioning organism in a made to measure environment, with no separation. No Self/Other.

The Universe.

Example 1: When the first audiences were shown Windsor McCay's animations - of mosquitoes, and Gertie the Dinosaur - they believed them to be somehow live action trickery. Real, performing mosquitoes, a real, live action Dinosaur.

People can be so daft.

But - they had no knowledge of animation. None. It had never been seen before. And they were unable to experience it as such. Their brains, aching as they must have been, simply informed them that what they wwere seeing must be real.

Example 2: An anthropological study of the BaMbuti tribe of pygmies who lived, and had lived, for many generations, in thick, thick rainforest tropical jungle, where visibility was less than 100yds, were taken out of their environment, and shown open plains, mountains, that kind of thing.

They were unable to experience perspective. They simply did not have it. They could not tell what Mountains were. No description. Clouds? What? Beyond their experience. But the most interesting thing, to the study, at least, was a distant herd of buffalo. The MaMbuti saw insects. Becuase they were so far away, and their knowledge did not include perspective, they saw insects. They became agitated and itinerant when the anthropologists insisted they were large animals. Upon being driven up close, the MaMbuti wigged out, and accused their anthropologist companions of sorcery.

They were, you see, unable to experience that which lay outside of their knowledge. Until they acquired more. The knowledge of their time.
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:37 / 01.12.06
Why, I honest to goodness was hoping to extend one myself to the venerable Dr. Quantum, creating, perhaps, a brief space in which the learned fellow could retire gracefully for a moment to, I don't know, have a cigar and a brandy while we retraced some very basic advaita vedanta and first-year astrophysics, which can, nevertheless, prove slightly tricky for newcomers.

Alternatively you were channelling the snark because Quantum pointed out that you (not us) were not, in his opinion, contributing anything particularly insightful to the thread, and you obviously got a little bothered by it. As I say, you may want to just get over it rather than punctuating your posts with snarky (and, IMO, childish) little bon mots in what is turning out to be an extended attack on another poster.

In fact, it might be an idea to stop suggesting other posters sit down with a cup of tea/brandy/whatever full stop. The only person who appears to be getting worked up by this thread is you.

We have yet to discuss astrophysics as it is commonly recognised in this thread. A more proper forum for discussion of the physical properties of the universe would be Lab anyway.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
10:23 / 01.12.06
Well, I'm still here, while ze's stormed off twice. I'm not attacking anybody. Barbelith is full of vitriol and snark, some of the longest standing and best loved posters on here (by me, as well as many, many others) use both as stock-in-trade on a regular, daily basis. It's part of the charm of the place, imho.

I'm not worked up, and it really wasn't snark, on this occasion. I have lapsed horribly into shittiness, near the beginning, and had a wee relapse a couple of pages back, but took time to note and apologise for it both times. Hey, we've all done it.

I think I have contributed to the thread. The thread, initially, is about a definition of atheism and agnosticism. In reaching this, we have detoured to define personal understandings of god or gods and as a result are now addressing the nature of ideation and manifest creation and how the two differ in terms of 'reality'. I'd say these were pretty key points in determining whether denying the existence of something, whether it is 'real' or not, is a useful and tenable position to hold.

My post from Sri Airobindas was implied irrelevant to the thread by Ev, while his Crowley quote 'contributed to the discussion', but from where I'm sitting, a letter from the ashram of an Indian sadhu regarding the inevitability and essential conclusion of agnosticism in the pursuit of spirituality through the intellect and reason alone is both pertinent to the thread, and particularly pertinent to the first instance of Quantum's decision to slam the door on his way out, when he was irritated by my description of the intellect as a weapon which needs to be wielded with care.

I say 'we', but, actually, I seem to be the only person on 'the other' side of the discussion. That's fine by me. It would be excellent, preferable even, if some of the questions I have asked of the posters accupying the counter argument side were addressed, but it does get confusing and difficult as the posts start rolling in. Particualrly these little asides where people get all frothy at the mouth over perceived infractions, real or imaginary.

On the one hand, Quantum feels that my contributions, although 'interesting' to both you and who cares at various points, are 'tired old ground', on the other ze doesn't understand what's being said...ze puts this down to my being 'a crap writer', I counter that while ze claims to have all this knowledge and understanding, ze seems mighty confused by what I'd consider pretty basic advaita, pretty standard meditative guff.

That I choose not, or am unable (take your pick) to provide the Usborne Guide to Esoteric Understanding is what apparently has hir hot under the collar.

I'd come to address hir points, but it hardly seems worth it now that ze's off sulking again.

If you'd rather I didn't invite anyone to enjoy tea, refreshments or a smoke, no probs.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
10:37 / 01.12.06
We have yet to discuss astrophysics as it is commonly recognised in this thread.

As baby class 101 as it may be, and have been, I'm under the impression that gravitation, and, arguably, the first law of thermodynamics in its application to Relativity and Quantum mechanics, fall under the broad umbrella of astrophysics...or could do, with reference to the notions in this thread.

(All is One...there is not two...The Big Bang and Now...Being...and so on...)
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:01 / 01.12.06
For anyone who can still be arsed, wrt to the importance of language as outlined above, you could do worse than refer back to that Werner Heisenberg quote
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:08 / 01.12.06
Nutrient:
An 'object' makes sense only in the presence of or if observed by a 'subject'. Agreed? It is the act of observation that creates the 'object', the perception of a 'thing' as separate from its 'environment'...are you disputing this?

who cares
Yes.

OK, so while we're at a Universal Scale of quantization, could you unpack this rather pointed, but ultimately lonely claim?

My claim : Without a perceptual apparatus and imagined experiencer to distinguish the Self from the Other, to separate the Carrot from the Earth, the Earth from the Sky, The Sky from the Clouds and so on, there is only One Thing there. Energy. Infinite, unaltered since the beginning of all, undifferentiated, dancing, flowing, popping in and out of existence, heaving, symphonic, whatever your metaphor, a sea of Energy. No carrot, no earth, no sky, no clouds, no concepts or structure or form at all. No language, no boxes, no way of discriminating. Just One.

Yours?
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:15 / 01.12.06
Well, I'm still here, while ze's stormed off twice.

"Stormed off" and "door slamming"? I can see no indication from Quantum's posts that he was in the kind of angered state that either of these terms suggest. The fact that you're still here is hardly grounds for moral superiority.

when he was irritated by my description of the intellect as a weapon which needs to be wielded with care.

Your interpretation is that he was irritated. Again, I see no indication of that in his post replying to your statement.

Particualrly these little asides where people get all frothy at the mouth over perceived infractions, real or imaginary.

Don't be shy Nutrient, have the courage of your convictions and explain who is being "frothy mouthed" (again suggesting that their rage is clouding their mind, and by extension, their posts).

On the one hand, Quantum feels that my contributions, although 'interesting' to both you and who cares at various points

I would point out that I said one of your posts was interesting. In general I tend (quite obviously) to agree with Quantum's assessment of your posting techniques though.

I'd come to address hir points, but it hardly seems worth it now that ze's off sulking again.

That must be some shit-hot ESP you've got there. Someone decides to step back from a thread and you interpret it as sulking.

If you'd rather I didn't invite anyone to enjoy tea, refreshments or a smoke, no probs.

So something has been achieved. Hurrah.

Incidentally:

Astrophysics is the branch of astronomy that deals with the physics of the universe, including the physical properties (luminosity, density, temperature, and chemical composition) of celestial objects such as stars, galaxies, and the interstellar medium, as well as their interactions. The study of cosmology is theoretical astrophysics at the largest scales.

Gravity theory, thermodynamics, and quantum theory are disciplines within physics which are used in the study of astrophysics. But that isn't the same thing.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:45 / 01.12.06
Non religous view points cannot be used to discuss religion, it is an attempt to reduce religous experience to a non religous state, it refuses to experience religion directly and attempts to undermine religion, by reducing it to non religous arguments through outside observation rather than religous experience.

Science can tell me nothing about religion, and never will be able too, as it refuses to under go religous experience to understand religion and seeks to address religion in the terms of science. Reducing eveything to the language of science.

Science is totally irrelevant to the practice of religion, with the current methodology that science uses to approach religion.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:47 / 01.12.06
Ok. Sweet on all points. I retract my statements about Q being in a tizz (he admitted to being 'spiky' in response the intellect/weapon thing, but whatever). I agree about astrophysics...no worries...

Q can come and go as he pleases, as can we all. No need for accusations of emotion being in there. My bad. Cheesy rhetoric. Note to self : Must. Drop. That.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:54 / 01.12.06
(And I am, honest, wary of what to say here...who cares and yourself raise a few points which I feel like like responding to, and Q responds with a little agitation, like you already know all this stuff...though it seems far from apparent to me...ze, perhaps, does; you, on the other hand, may not...hence, we discuss...although, ze did back off and clarify this already, so maybe we can all move ahead?)

I'm not that keen to point out some of the really obvious stuff up a couple of posts, but who cares is teasing it out, for better or worse...
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:30 / 01.12.06
Science is totally irrelevant to the practice of religion, with the current methodology that science uses to approach religion.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that, Yah. There are many ways that science and religion can be easy bedfellows, if both accord each other the respect they are due. There are many studies of religious practice which could benefit from a scientific rigour and many which are ongoing...maybe not in this country, but elsewhere for sure. I see a very bright future, personally.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:08 / 01.12.06
I'm just rooting around for other 'theists' who accord with the claim that existence is Divinity and vice versa, that God 'merely' refers to the sum total of all that is, or ever could be, now. I'll get a few from each relevant 'faith' if you think that might help.

Here's an Islamic one:

"The first "station of separation" corresponds to the state of the ordinary man who perceives the universe as distinct from God. Starting from here, the initiatic itinerary leads the being first to extinction in the divine Unity, which abolishes all perception of created things. But spiritual realization, if it is complete, arrives afterwards at the "second station of separation" where the being perceives simultaneously the one in the multiple and the multiple in the one."

from The Spiritual Writings of 'Abd al-Kader, by Kitab al-Mawaqif.

Here's a Hindu one:

" He who knows me as his own divine Self breaks through the belief that he is the body and is not reborn as a separate creature. Such a one is united with me. Delivered from selfish attachment, fear, and anger, filled with me, surrendering themselves to me, purified in the fire of my being, many have reached the state of unity in me."

From the Bhagavad Gita

A Buddhist perspective:

"Bodhidharma: Even if a buddha or bodhisattva should suddenly appear before you, there's no need for reverence. This mind of ours is empty and contains no such form. Those who hold onto appearances are devils. They fall from the Path. Why worship illusions born of the mind? . . . The basic nature of a buddha has no such form. Keep this in mind, even if something unusual should appear. Don't embrace it, and don't fear it, and don't doubt that your mind is basically pure. . . . Also at the appearance of spirits, demons, or divine beings, conceive neither respect nor fear. Your mind is basically empty. All appearances are illusions. Don't hold on to appearances. If you envision a buddha, a dharma, or a bodhisattva and conceive respect for them, you relegate yourself to the realm of mortals. If you seek direct understanding, don't hold on to any appearance whatsoever, and you'll succeed. . . . The sutras say, "That which is free of all form is the buddha." Disciple: But why shouldn't we worship buddhas and bodhisattvas? Bodhidharma: Devils and demons possess the power of manifestation. They can create the appearance of bodhisattvas in all sorts of guises. But they're false. None of them are buddhas. The buddha is your own mind. Don't misdirect your worship."

From the Boddhidharma

A 'Christian' one (strictly speaking Essene, but we'll ignore that for now)

O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos! Radiant Oneness, as you rise and shine in Space, fulfilling every center of possibility, all potential, things, done, undone, and yet to be done, Your Name, Sound, Light and Vibration is revelaed to us through our own Conscious Presence, Here, Now, In and Of this very Universe, in the Roar and the Whisper we hear You. Our small identity unravels in You, You hand it back as a lesson"

From 'The Lords Prayer'

A Hebrew one:

Well, the Otz Chiim, really. The 3 negative Veils. Ain. Ain Soph. Ain Soph Aur. The Ani and the Ain.

A Mathematical one:

"There exists, if I am not mistaken, an entire world which is the totality of mathematical truths, to which we have access only with our mind, just as a world of physical reality exists, the one like the other independent of ourselves, both of divine creation."

Charles Hermite, The Mathematical Intelligencer

So I kind of don't quite get your claim that 'no theists' would agree with my interpretation that Totality and Oneness, Supreme Being, Absolute Isness, is referred to by shorthand as 'God'.

That an awful lot of people are too lazy to get beyond the exoteric cladding in which this notion is hidden is self-evident. Doesn't change a thing as regards the claim itself though, does it?
 
 
some guy
13:24 / 01.12.06
So I kind of don't quite get your claim that 'no theists' would agree with my interpretation that Totality and Oneness, Supreme Being, Absolute Isness, is referred to by shorthand as 'God'.

That's because you read texts with a massive confirmation bias. For example, very few Christian theologians are going to agree that you've presented the quote from their faith in anything approaching an accurate context.
 
 
some guy
13:25 / 01.12.06
In the beginning was the Word, yes? Even that nothing-to-you, doesn't exist fairy tale God allegedly had to use language to create the entire Universe, in that silly story. Language creates the Universe? What on Earth?

I'm familiar with this argument. It ultimately collapses because rabbits eat carrots. Sorry.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:26 / 01.12.06
Ummm...

...except the ones who study Aramaic, the language someone rather appositely called Jesus 'The Christ' of Nazareth spoke, and rendered that rather beautiful little meditation in.

The Christ. Christian.

Do. You. See?
 
 
some guy
13:26 / 01.12.06
My claim : Without a perceptual apparatus and imagined experiencer to distinguish the Self from the Other, to separate the Carrot from the Earth, the Earth from the Sky, The Sky from the Clouds and so on, there is only One Thing there. Energy. Infinite, unaltered since the beginning of all, undifferentiated, dancing, flowing, popping in and out of existence, heaving, symphonic, whatever your metaphor, a sea of Energy. No carrot, no earth, no sky, no clouds, no concepts or structure or form at all. No language, no boxes, no way of discriminating. Just One.

Yours?


The carrot is a carrot whether you perceive it or not. That's why if I shoot you in the back you still die.
 
 
some guy
13:27 / 01.12.06
...except the ones who study Aramaic, the language someone rather appositely called Jesus 'The Christ' of Nazareth spoke, and rendered that rather beautiful little meditation in.

Nope.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:28 / 01.12.06
Nope?

What?

Are you struggling a bit?
 
 
some guy
13:29 / 01.12.06
Non religous view points cannot be used to discuss religion, it is an attempt to reduce religous experience to a non religous state, it refuses to experience religion directly and attempts to undermine religion, by reducing it to non religous arguments through outside observation rather than religous experience.

This depends on how we're defining religion today. But it is an awfully convenient get out of jail card, I agree.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:29 / 01.12.06
The carrot is a carrot whether you perceive it or not. That's why if I shoot you in the back you still die.

Wow. Are we still conversing in English?

The carrot...is...you...shoot...I...die?

Now whose up with the jibberish?
 
 
some guy
13:30 / 01.12.06
What?

Are you struggling a bit?


Not at all. The implication that Christian theologians who study Aramaic texts agree with your personal definition of divinity is so patently untrue it scarcely warrants typing a fifth letter.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:31 / 01.12.06
Let's deal with this s-l-o-w-l-y so you can gather your mustard, so to speak.

For example, very few Christian theologians are going to agree that you've presented the quote from their faith in anything approaching an accurate context.

Are you sure? Could you explain that to me, please?
 
 
some guy
13:31 / 01.12.06
Are we still conversing in English?

Sometimes it helps to cut the waffling and get straight to the point. It's not as though Jupiter sprung into the existence the moment it was first observed.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:32 / 01.12.06
Oh Boy.

This could really take some time.
 
 
some guy
13:33 / 01.12.06
Are you sure? Could you explain that to me, please?

Sure. By definition no Christian can agree with your definition of divinity because the very nature of the faith posits divinity as an autonomous being independent of ourselves. To be honest I would take this tack of your much more seriously if you demonstrated an awareness that your view is not widely shared.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:34 / 01.12.06
The implication that Christian theologians who study Aramaic texts agree with your personal definition of divinity is so patently untrue it scarcely warrants typing a fifth letter.

Let's stick to this. Firstly, that's not what you said, initially. You said 'very few Chritian theologians would agree with the quote I have presesnted in the context'

The quote. Can you explain this carefully please? I don't understand.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:36 / 01.12.06
To be honest I would take this tack of your much more seriously if you demonstrated an awareness that your view is not widely shared.

To be honest, I'd take you a lot more seriously if demonstrated that you know what you are talking about.

See this:

That an awful lot of people are too lazy to get beyond the exoteric cladding in which this notion is hidden is self-evident. Doesn't change a thing as regards the claim itself though, does it?

That's me demonstrating just that.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:37 / 01.12.06
no Christian can agree with your definition of divinity because the very nature of the faith posits divinity as an autonomous being independent of ourselves.

Just checking : Christian means person who ascribes to the teachings of Jesus Christ, right? That is what that means?

Or what?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:39 / 01.12.06
Also, you were talking about the 'quote from their faith' not my definition of Divinity. His. Jesus, which I quoted.

Care to comment?
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:43 / 01.12.06
Non religous view points cannot be used to discuss religion, it is an attempt to reduce religous experience to a non religous state, it refuses to experience religion directly and attempts to undermine religion, by reducing it to non religous arguments through outside observation rather than religous experience.

So what the sweet monkey hell am I doing?

Science can tell me nothing about religion, and never will be able too, as it refuses to under go religous experience to understand religion and seeks to address religion in the terms of science. Reducing eveything to the language of science.

Science is totally irrelevant to the practice of religion, with the current methodology that science uses to approach religion.


Which is great and all, however you are aware that there is a difference between science and atheism right?

It is something that I have noticed in the past. A tendency of some on the religious side of the fence to equate the two together, as though science is the anti-religion. However there are large numbers of people who follow a faith and still utilise scientific method.

Now some people, myself included, are atheist and believe that scientific method is the best current way for us to explore the universe. But approaching the universe scientifically does not discount the possibility of God/gods/unicorns, it simply means (to me) that those things must be proven to exist as more than a non-autonomous construct of the human mind before I disapear off to worship them.

Yah, you talk about science as though it is a concious entity, it isn't.
 
 
some guy
13:46 / 01.12.06
Care to comment?

Let's just say I'm not buying that you have some secret insight into the nature of reality that was somehow overlooked by the bulk of the theologians specializing in some of the "mainstream" faiths you're citing. Any of us can offer up quotes out of context from the totality of the faith's writings and claim they support our subjective viewpoint.

I'm joining Quantum.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:46 / 01.12.06
so patently untrue it scarcely warrants typing a fifth letter.

So patently true, its scared you from typing a reply?

The Peshitta Texts, if you're desperately scrabbling around on Google. You might need to learn a bit of Aramaic of course.

The Assyrian Church. Church of the East.

Here's a starter, to get you on your way:

Abwoon d'bwshmaya
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:48 / 01.12.06
I'm joining Quantum.

No. You are totally wrong, and it has become apparent to you that you have to backtrack and admit that you have made a mistake.

Maybe not with everything. But with this.

However, since you identify very closely with your arguments on a website you are now feeling a bit threatened. You are Egoic and rigid.

See ya!
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:50 / 01.12.06
Let's just say I'm not buying that you have some secret insight into the nature of reality that was somehow overlooked by the bulk of the theologians specializing in some of the "mainstream" faiths you're citing.

No, it's not secret. Esoteric. Occult. You know what that means, right? I've just taken the time to bother to learn a bit about which I speak.

You might like to try it sometime. It saves everyone a whole load of afternoon piss arsing around on the internet.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:00 / 01.12.06
Religous experience is the proof of religion not scientific evidence, scientific evidence is the proof of the sciences.

The two are very very dissimilar, one attempts to describe physical phenomena and the other offers experience of religous phenomena.

I dont see the compatability or integration of either field, if anything this discussion has helped me to see the error of trying to combine both view points and has allowed me to understand which view point best serves my spiritual practice.
 
  

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