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Agnostic or Atheist

  
  

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Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:30 / 19.12.06
What do you suggest?
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:32 / 19.12.06
Seconded.

It might have been nice for people to be able choose whether to act as your comfort blanket or not. Especially considering that was not the threads intent.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:33 / 19.12.06
That "seconded" in support of Mordent's post, obviously.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:42 / 19.12.06
I can see what you mean. I certainly didn't plan it.

I don't entirely see what I can do except step back and say what I have said - thank you, and apologies for any offence I may have caused...I'm being as sincere and upfront as I possibly can be, given the medium.

These are complex, difficult issues to discuss at the best of times. I've been in PM with a couple of posters, some of whom are completely 'Don't sweat it, it's just a message board, and a thorny issue', others more upset and emotionally involved.

What would you like?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:58 / 19.12.06
It might have been nice for people to be able choose whether to act as your comfort blanket or not. Especially considering that was not the threads intent.

Well, people were free to contribute or not, as ever. The thread made some headway into the attempt to define these terms. who cares fairly strongly argued hir case for atheism as a non-belief, for example. A few definitions were mooted and booted. In between all the other guff, there is, actually, a thread there.

It was only my unfortunate posting style that fouled up the proceedings, in which I somewhat regrettably took it upon myself to be a total arsehole-by-text. I'm not proud, it was deeply wrong, and clearly upset people, which I had no conscious intention of.

In terms of seconding MC, what do you suppose is appropriate?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:06 / 19.12.06
How about a fruit basket, or maybe a gift voucher?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
14:12 / 19.12.06


 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:13 / 19.12.06
Okay, in general: You need to be more honest with yourself about your capacity for engagement. You need to start putting in place a few checks and balances that will help you gauge whether you're in the right state of mind to get into this kind of discussion. Like I say, I know you didn't act out of malice. I know you're not a troll. You were under the influence of a pretty potent physiological state--fasting--and it also sounds like you've been dealing with a spiritual crisis.

I speak as someone with moderate to severe anger-management issues, mood disorders, spells of cognitive impairment due to my epilepsy, and a tendency to go a bit overboard on the San Miguel* from time to time. I may not like it, but I've had to accept that sometimes my reaction to a post or a thread is either disproportionate to the actual offence or that I have in fact misunderstood what's being said entirely. If something has triggered an anger response from me I take time before posting to reflect on things like my probable blood sugar levels, whether I'm experiencing peripheral symptoms of an emotional disturbance, whether I feel "fitty," how many days have passed since my mittelschmerz and possibly how many empty cans are stacked up next to the keyboard. I also think about which Persons of Restricted Embodiment I've been knocking around with recently; interacting with some intelligences can bring out aggressive or otherwise unpleasant elements of one's personality. If I've been dealing with Someone a bit fighty, I try to factor that in as well.

If it looks like I might not be entirely compos mentis, I go for a stroll or look at kitten videos on YouTube for a bit, or call in a trusted person to give me a second opinion. (I regret to say that I am not always successful in catching myself before I lose it completely with some innocent person and post something that's out of line; when that happens, I do try and drag myself shamefacedly back to the thread later on to apologise.)

So that's something you need to work at. If you're going to practice serious fasting, there will be times when you are not quite yourself and you need to allow for that. Any kind of heavy spiritual practice will throw you out of whack a bit so you need to watch that too.

In this particular instance, I think it might be a good idea to ask your interlocutors what might help them feel better about this whole exchange. People have put their time and energy into interacting with you here, and now feel that they have been wasting that time and energy. You've partially acknowledged that but maybe the other posters could help a bit by outlining the specific things they have a problem with, and what they might need to hear or understand to come away with a more positive view of the situation.


*It's actually quite disturbing how many of my wig-outs are not due to to alcohol.
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:16 / 19.12.06
Well, people were free to contribute or not, as ever.

People would have had more choice if you had made it clear from day one that your posting style was being influenced by the effects of your fasting and that you were using the thread to vent these toxins. Rather than discussing atheism and agnosticism without an ulterior motive.

In terms of seconding MC, what do you suppose is appropriate?

Simply that you be a bit more considerate of your fellow posters the next time around.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:24 / 19.12.06
People would have had more choice if you had made it clear from day one that your posting style was being influenced by the effects of your fasting

I think that's a fair point.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
14:36 / 19.12.06
Thanks for the suggestions...I appreciate your taking the time.

It would be a great shame if people truly 'felt like they had wasted their time and effort'...far from it, the thread has had enormous value to me, though perhaps in ways outside its remit. More generally though, I think it has contained much considered and useful posting...I'm a bit red-cheeked at having been responsible for hiding some of this among a load of invective and really out-of-sorts posturing...

I'd hope Tuna's 'You've brought not one single new or worthwhile idea to this thread' is a little bit of a stretch, though if not I'll take that on board also...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:10 / 19.12.06
It would be a great shame if people truly 'felt like they had wasted their time and effort'...far from it, the thread has had enormous value to me, though perhaps in ways outside its remit.

See now, the problem I have with this idea--that the input of the other posters was not wasted because it helped you through your rough patch--is that it presupposes a lot of things. First of all, it presupposes that everybody else participating in the thread was doing so from a place of abundant resources of time, energy and emotion; a superfluity, in fact, such that they would not mind expending those resources on helping you in your personal quest rather than participating in a philosphical discussion, which is what they though they were doing. This is not the case. Other people do not become bottomless pits of resource just because you happen to need help. Asking for help in thrashing things out as you go through crises = fine. Taking people's time and energy to help you in thrashing things out as you go through crises = taking the mick a bit, frankly.

Like I said above, these things happen. We can all sometimes speak or act inappropriately when we are not quite masters of ourselves. What is bothering me about this particular situation is that while you've sort of apologised, what I'm getting from your responses is more of an "I'm sorry you're angry/offended/etc" rather than an "I'm sorry I was out of line." I feel like you're trying to minimise the offence you've caused rather than accept it and apologise sincerely.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:34 / 20.12.06
While I am loathe to continue any further in this thread, or even to defend any of my statements, as my remorse/regret is entirely at how I've carried on, rather than how others have responded, I'd like, nonetheless, to query this...

that the input of the other posters was not wasted because it helped you through your rough patch

Although the thread proved hugely instructive to me in a number of ways, this is not the only reason I do not believe the input of the other posters was in any way 'wasted'. As painful as the thread may have become, I cannot see how impassioned and vigorous presentation / defence of ideas like this represents 'waste'. What is the function of threads on Barbelith if it is not to instruct or otherwise inform, entertain, or provide some sort of feedback of whatever nature to those who are contributing? It might be good if who cares or multitude or whoever made it clear (PM if you like) if they felt their contribution was wasted? I really wasn't intentionally trolling in any sense of the word...

First of all, it presupposes that everybody else participating in the thread was doing so from a place of abundant resources of time, energy and emotion; a superfluity, in fact, such that they would not mind expending those resources on helping you in your personal quest rather than participating in a philosphical discussion, which is what they though they were doing.
This is not the case.

I don't see how the thread ceases to be a philosophical discussion in light of the information I have provided - apart from me not being 'calm, stoical or dispassionate'! Different sides to arguments were presented and debated, evidence was sought, examined, re-examined, evaluated, kept or discarded, considered or rejected. I have re-evaluated my tone, conduct and attitude throughout and found it to be hugely wanting...hence a genuine apology and indication of gratitude to those who chose to engage with it in spite of its obnoxiousness. The obnoxiousness was noted from the get go, the choice was never imposed nor 'taken'. People's resources were, and remain, their own to apportion according to their priorities and amusement. I frequently noted my extended absences and the thread continued apace, often questions posed in lieu of my return...At several points I suggested perhaps leaving it be, only to be encouraged back to answer other queries...People were as free then as they are now to step away or carry on.

Other people do not become bottomless pits of resource just because you happen to need help. Asking for help in thrashing things out as you go through crises = fine. Taking people's time and energy to help you in thrashing things out as you go through crises = taking the mick a bit, frankly.

Hmm. Okay. I'm sitting and considering deeply how posting on a message board without revealing the internal set-up of where your head might happen to be at and what you might be going through in life = taking liberties with other people's time and energy. Is it required ettiquette to explain your broader life before going head-to-head on some big issues?

I do see your point, particularly as a moderator, particularly with somebody who has a certain amount invested in Barbelith as a community. I understand, very well, the difference that regarding such a thing as a community rather than a commodity brings to bear, and I think that's key here.

I'll have thinkle. Thanks, Mordant, for bothering.
 
 
Quantum
17:09 / 20.12.06
I felt my contribution was wasted.

Well, people were free to contribute or not, as ever.

If I'd known it was going to be a therapy session I would have refrained from posting. I thought it was going to be a discussion on how a lack of belief in Gods affects magical practice or something, not you monologuing like a DC villain about the ineffable nature of deity which we were too stupid to grasp.

The thread made some headway into the attempt to define these terms.

The terms are already very well defined. See the dictionary definitions, they are commonly accepted. I didn't see any headway, I saw you attempting to come to terms with the dichotomy between exoteric and esoteric doctrine and failing.

I'm pissed off. The whole thread was like trying to have a reasonable discussion with someone who would fly off the handle at random, not take on board what was happening or listen, blatantly misrepresent what people were saying and then spin off at a tangent. I appreciate you were fasting, but that doesn't excuse your behaviour, next time I simply won't engage just in case you're under the influence. It takes a lot for me to abstain from posting about philosophical issues but you managed.

And the idea that the thread wasn't a waste because *you* feel better is frankly offensive. I personally feel like I patiently handed you spoons which you petulantly threw to the floor (thank you MC for that absolutely brilliant link). Sorry if I seem overly harsh, but I have been sick for two days and if I followed your logic I'd have a fat rant and then use that as my excuse.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:35 / 20.12.06
...but I have been sick for two days and if I followed your logic I'd have a fat rant and then use that as my excuse.

Don't we have thread for that? A thread for fat rants brought on by exhaustion, sickness (headsickness or otherwise), or things just not really pertaining to barbelith? I'm pretty sure we have a thread for exactly that.

For me, the only part of the thread that was productive was the exchange between who cares and toksik, which made me think about how to frame the situation of being atheist and wether an act of denial is necessary. So it wasn't a total waste, there were about two pages out of twelve that had good stuff on it.
 
  

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