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The Invisibles : a call to arms

  
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
20:32 / 13.09.06
Dude, that would be _great_.

It strikes me that what you and your friends are looking for is not actually a magical activity, but rather a kind of shared, freeform role-playing game, right? In which case you get to keep the superhero stuff, and the astral travel, if you really want, but probably have to drop the bit where you are making a difference to the world. I think you've got a two-of-three deal going on here.
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
20:36 / 13.09.06
@pants

I'd like to hear about whatever it is would you would like to share.

In the future, I'm going to start a site that can help draw lines between peoples experiences, and try to find any underlaying patterns between the hive mind, as well encourage folks to keep a log of their own dreamlife, to highlight their own personal narratives. I'd like to somehow be able to create these kinds of maps, even tho it seems somewhat impossible. I think a map that changes shape every so often would be best perhaps.

Im in the process of learning Drupal right now so I can get cracking on this

Thanks for the kudos, but they should go to Klint for not letting me wash my hands of lith altogether.
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
20:47 / 13.09.06
It strikes me that what you and your friends are looking for is not actually a magical activity, but rather a kind of shared, freeform role-playing game, right? In which case you get to keep the superhero stuff, and the astral travel, if you really want, but probably have to drop the bit where you are making a difference to the world. I think you've got a two-of-three deal going on here.

Yes, thats basically what Im going for.

Except, I dont know, I do feel like we are making a difference in the world, even if its as small as just making life more interesting for those involved. I've broken into the minds of the rampantly angry, burst their bubbles, and found myself having perfectly pleasant conversations with them the next day, as they seemed to be changed by those encounters. Perhaps I am projecting a bit, but perhaps Im not.

If I can at all help anyone I know to increase the amount of myth and meaning to a life, Id feel like Ive accomplished something. Life seems to be sold to us as boxed in and plastic, and I've had enough of that. The world is a magical place, and I'd like to see more people wearing capes and spandex, and being weird psyhic fetish people, out in the open and proud. Why not?

Although I do admit, the idea of going on 'A Quest', has always been the hook for any RPG, this case is most likely no different than that. This whole thing is probably a much easier sell if I present it under the banner of Alternate Reality Gaming, so I'm going to go in that direction a bit.

The distinction between working magic [for results] and working with dreams and myth [for spandex fetishism], is only a thin line for me I guess. Of course there is results magic, and then there is crap like this, but I dont disclude one from the other personally.
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
21:04 / 13.09.06
Correct me if i am wrong but you seem to be saying that magick and religion construct narratives and story to create a context for experience to take place.

Its this context that you would wish to effect thus effecting your own perceptions and the perceptions of the other dreamers, this would of course have to be a consensual group decision between the dreamers in order to effect change.

Teamwork.

Sometimes I feel like some of these changes seem to be coming from everyone involved at once, seamlessly, rather than a choice that needs to be hashed out.
 
 
klint
21:07 / 13.09.06
"Yeah not so much the point of my whatever practice. I understand and support the concept of magic as an artform both product and process related but it has never been the point of my work and many cultures that have magic/shaman/whatevers also have art. I'm fairly certain they would be clear if that's what they were up to."

Sorry, to clarify: it's not all about making art for everyone, necessarily, but about bringing something useful back from "elsewhere" (or receiving something from "the other"). This could be something intangible like an idea or an insight. It's a very large generalization that deson't capture the nuance of every tradition, but I see that as sort of the jist of it.
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
21:21 / 13.09.06
Digital Eye, thanks again for those links, these are great.
 
 
Char Aina
21:34 / 13.09.06
i have to get something out of the way before i can go on, dude. sorry about that.

see when you say
I still dont understand why its taken so seriously, its just the internet.
it makes me wincey.
i mean, dude.
all communication is the transmision of ideas.
the transmission of ideas gets people so riled up they end up bombing hiroshima, killing protestants, taking overdoses and throwing eggs at john prescott.
the internet is only different in that you can do your transmitting without being anywhere near anyone else, and you can pretend it lives in a box by your monitor.
it's easier to leave the room, is all.
some would argue that it isnt even all that easy, especially if someone has riled you up.

Im personally not a fan of super-academics when it comes to this stuff. Id rather people have fun, and be honest about their internal environmenst.

is being thorough and rigorous mutually exclusive with being honest and having fun?
i disagree.
i think some seriously honest shit has been posted here in the temple, and i know i find the rigour that usually accompanies it to be a vital component of that, rather than a barrier to it.
the honesty and the rigour are what make the magick chat herein worth reading.


see;
The blind trials is fine for those who still want to work on 'lets see if this is really real, for real', but I personally don't resonate with that.

sounds to me like you only want to be honest with yourself if it doesnt come at the expense of your concept.
i think making real magickal progress kinda hinges on facing the facts, whether they be facts of the material or immaterial.
if the dreams are only in synch because people are rewriting them as they tell them, that will render the whole project magickally useless. without a blind test, there is no way to tell if that is the case.

'is this really real' doesnt come into it for me.
'is this really real' isnt something i work with on anything more than a cursosry level, and i dont think a little applied rigour need do so either.
this is, of course, my opinion.
feel free to disagree.

more on a similar tack;
I've broken into the minds of the rampantly angry, burst their bubbles, and found myself having perfectly pleasant conversations with them the next day, as they seemed to be changed by those encounters. Perhaps I am projecting a bit, but perhaps Im not.

how are you extending the prinicple of honesty to this encounter?
i am wondering mostly how you have verified that your attitude was not the thing that made the difference. did you approach hir differently, having been inside hir head the night before? did you expect a different response this time when engaging with hir?

these are only some of the things i would initially suspect as factors were i in your situation, and am curious to hear how you have made sure they were not.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:50 / 13.09.06
Okay. There's a lot I want to say here but fuck it, it's late and I'm tired and if I try to put together a coherent post my head asplode.

Before I collapse, could I ask you chaps--klint and you/chaoflux23--to maybe go and spend a bit of time reading the forum? Before you come bowling in here and telling us to drop our weed'n'comix while you oneironauts show us how t3h modern shamanism should be done, you might like to spend a bit of time looking at past threads. This will help you in getting an overveiw of the kinds of communication that go over well, the kinds that go over less well (HINT: anything that looks like Matrix wannabe wish-fulfillment) and also the degree and range of experience, activity and expertise around here.

To get you started, you might like to have a look at some of the threads currently on the front page of this very forum. If you want to dig deeper, how about a visit to some of the threads linked to here.

I'll be asking questions later.
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
22:14 / 13.09.06
I apologize for making you wincy.

If you resonate with the Scientific Method, great. I resonate with storytelling and mythological narrative. I choose to work in the ways that Im most drawn towards, if I'm foolish since I'm not taking the same approach as you and everyone you respect, again Im sorry for making you wincy, dude.

The dreams dont synch up after the fact. I trust you know when things are uncanny and when coicidence is meaningful.

In some ways, its almost like everyone seems to be saying to me, "I dont believe you left your house and saw the same moon I did in the night sky, prove it that its not my moon that belongs only to me."

I'm not interested in tests these days, if anyone else is so compelled, try it. I used to visit my friends on random, as a willed event, and say nothing about it until they told me about the situation. We compared notes, and things have been spot on, sometimes to an extreme. That was actually years ago, and I'm not compelled to meetup with someone just to say hello. If you are, go for it, I dont care.

I'm not knocking what you do, and what you like, Im just saying it doesnt do anything for me. It certainly doesnt make me wincy.

I already made the comment that, "perhaps I am projecting", so I already know that. Its not something you can prove either way, so I dont really care, just as long as more positive situation arose from it. Being able to say, "I did this with my crazy powers" doesnt really matter to me, but having to sit on my hands when Ive had an interesting experience isnt something I feel I have to do either. In each scenario, it makes for an interesting story, and Im just into that.

I haven't sat around and devised ways to make sure what Im doing is super ultra factual because I never really cared to. Like I already said, its just plotlines to me, life is rich with meaning and fun, why should I care? Im not trying to prove magic or prove that Im awesome shaman dude. I just thought that some people might be interested in my approach and might want to play, and a few are, thats all I really wanted from this forum. I got some good discussion that helped hone down the aesthetic in certain angles, and Im glad for that too, dude.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:37 / 13.09.06
Have you ever tried working with remote viewing, it sounds similar to what you have described, only seems to work with a much lighter trance than dream sleep, also i wonder if you have ever tried working with various brain wave modulation devices, to gain a greater depth of control of the experience, even some music is capable of inducing trance, especially i find so called ambient pieces, also another angle of approach if you care to study it maybe dzogchen dream yoga within tibetan buddhism.

Dream Yoga
 
 
Char Aina
22:51 / 13.09.06
okay, so either i angered you, or you liked the word wincey.
either way, you seem to have missed that my wince only applied to the bit of my post where i told you that your line, I still dont understand why its taken so seriously, its just the internet, was pretty ridiculous.

do you disagree that the internet is a means of communication?
or do you disagree that the communication of ideas can cause untold heck among the humans?
i can supply you with more reasons i think both of those things if you like. maybe not for this thread, but feel free to ask.




Its not something you can prove either way, so I dont really care, just as long as more positive situation arose from it.

i'm not after 'proof', something i often find a bit irrelevant to the old majiquery-pokery game.
the point i am driving at is whether the positivity really did arise from your dream experience, or if there was more/less to it than that.
why? well, because if you liked the result, you might want to replicate it.
heck, we might all want to replicate it.

see, in my opinion a magician who doesnt know how to repeat hir magic isnt a magician. ze's a button basher in the tekken of life, and will get hir ass handed to hir by the end of level boss.

this isnt scientific so much as rational.
i feel rational is a good tool for your kit, whatever your magical bent.


Being able to say, "I did this with my crazy powers" doesnt really matter to me

and that's cool.
being able to continue down the same path in a meaningful way surely does, though, yeah?

that said, i'm not so convinced as you are by your assertion above.

why?
well, because I've broken into the minds of the rampantly angry, burst their bubbles, and found myself having perfectly pleasant conversations with them the next day, as they seemed to be changed by those encounters sounds an awful lot like "I did this with my crazy powers" to me.

perhaps i dont understand you correctly?
 
 
Quantum
17:36 / 14.09.06
Comics+Dream=Gaiman. Lots of good stuff about dreams in there if you want to use the comic book 'pantheon'.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
17:54 / 14.09.06
I like the everyday "super hero" aspect. The new television show HEROES is about a group of people who discover they have super powers and then discover that there may be a reason they have these powers. Basically, it's the same story as UNBREAKABLE except with a bunch of uncommonly good looking people and a few character types (think the cast of LOST).

I wonder if there are people with special abilities, gifts, who are intended to perform some essential task or role, if the "hero" vibe reflects a truth at the core of existence OR perhaps the hero vibe is an attempt to forge something in an essentially meaningless environment.
 
 
Quantum
18:30 / 14.09.06
I wonder if there are people with special abilities, gifts, who are intended to perform some essential task or role

Like 'Doctor' perhaps?
 
 
Ticker
18:30 / 14.09.06
Slackula that was a great link on the Dream Yoga, thanks!
 
 
Henningjohnathan
18:39 / 14.09.06
I wonder if there are people with special abilities, gifts, who are intended to perform some essential task or role

Like 'Doctor' perhaps?

Actually, I wonder how many people by the time they enter a profession still feel that it is a "calling" for them? Obviously, the majority of professionals in any area aren't going to all be the cream of the crop.
 
 
ghadis
23:23 / 14.09.06
Well, maybe think of some people being 'talented' in a certain area. This doesn't imply that they are automatically the shit hottest of the hottest in what they do. It may means that they are drawn to the subject and are good at it and because they are drawn to it they put themselves through a lot of hard work and crap to keep getting better at it.

I know a couple of nurses and other people in similer roles who do this, of course, as i'm sure everyone does. They do it because they care about people. Because they are often drawn to it because thats what they are good at. They may fuck up, get lazy, not be what they want to be at that moment in time, at it. But the act of doing it is, well kinda the point.



And of course there are other people who have different roles that are just as difficult and they put themselves through shit to try and become those roles as well. And,of course people have other internal and external roles along the way. The pushing forward is whats important. The becoming. The act of creation
 
 
ghadis
23:38 / 14.09.06
Sorry if that sounded a little bit 'Awaken the Giant Within'



but i do have Anthony Robbins pissed in my bog, crying like a baby, and i had to make him and myself feel a little bit better
 
 
Quantum
18:24 / 15.09.06
the majority of professionals in any area aren't going to all be the cream of the crop.

Ditto superheroes. Check out The Beefeater from Justice League Europe, or some of these guys. Not l33t.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:19 / 16.09.06
Actually, I wonder how many people by the time they enter a profession still feel that it is a "calling" for them? Obviously, the majority of professionals in any area aren't going to all be the cream of the crop.

I don't see how those two statements interact. I don't really know many people who describe their choice of career in terms of a calling - as opposed to the resolution of or compromise between a set of conflicting desires, for example - but those I do (mainly priests) tend to be aware that they aren't necessary being called to be the absolute best at what they want to do - just to do it to the best of their abilities. There's something a bit adolescent about not wanting to do something unless you are the absolute best in the world at it, surely? Which is why, apart from anything else, the "we are the secret chiefs/the Invisibles/the psychic bulwark against the nonces" stuff always seems like a bit of an asolescent power fantasy.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:07 / 16.09.06
Meh. I'm trying hard to make friends with this thread, I really am, but what I'm mostly seeing here is a retrograde step back into the "I'm saving the world--from teh ASTRAL PLANE!1!!" territory I was hoping we'd left behind in 2003. This kind of thing is hardly new, here or anywhere else. Psychic task-forces of people claiming extraordinary powerz, or at least some astounding insight that the less awakened do not possess, are ten a penny. I've yet to see any one of these projects actually make a difference to anything. I'm not even looking for massive changes. Did someone sick get better? Did someone at risk of losing hir home get to keep it? Did an unemployed person get a job? Did a lonely soul find love? Small stuff, the stuff that doesn't get you a PVC trenchcoat or a shag off Carrie-Anne Moss.

If we really were all sitting around mumbling over our Fantastic Four altars, then threads like this wouldn't really matter. But there are people out there who have built a living an meangingful relationship with the magic in their lives and are genuinely seeking to make a difference to the world around them. People who maintain a daily martial arts practice that takes hours out of their day. People who meditate and engage in ritual work when they could be watching TV. People who'll stay up all night to focus on a tricky healing, or simply to deepen a relationship with some Intelligence that they work with, and then go to work the next morning. People who'll take genuine risks and make genuine sacrifices to improve their skills. People who have been working their arses off for years to become the magicians they are. Some of the people who post here are people like that. You--blatantly--are not.

There's nothing wrong with having a small, low-key kind of practice. There's nothing wrong with being a beginner. There's nothing wrong with getting exited over a new project. There's nothing wrong with experimenting, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to talk about those things here. But it is fucking insulting to pop up with half-a-dozen posts under your belt, without having read the forum, post some badly-explained dreamwork project couched in dodgy Invisibles-a-like language, and then throw a tantrum when nobody gives you the uncritical applause you've decided you deserve.

Okay, so now we've got as far as the nature of the project. Shared lucid dreaming, fine, jolly good, nothing wrong there. Now what are you actually doing to realise this plan (other than posting on Livejournal)? Are you at least keeping a detailed dream diary every day? What are your theories? Are you collaborating with others to test these theories? My friends dream about me and I about them fairly regularly; what makes your dreams different? What techniques have you investigated and how do you intend to apply them? What are your criteria for success? If you have no criteria for success, why should anyone want to be invovled in your project?

Be aware that if you are not prepared to answer these kinds of questions, your Barbelith experience is unlikely to be a happy one and you would be much better off kvetching about t3h meen limeyz over on Livejournal.
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
15:56 / 16.09.06
Yeah, but Mordant, like teacher, don't you regard some little and special affection to us, little brainless and impulsive students from the back of the class ?? :->
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
16:22 / 16.09.06
man, you are angry.

sorry.

Forget this whole thread, forget me, ... you need to relax.

It was never my intention to insult you, but if you feel that you need to insult me, thats fine. I just think the root of your emotionally charged words dont stem from anything Im directly related to.

You have me, and my practice, largly misunderstood, but be that as it may, are you so upset since you see yourself in the phantom personality you have imposed upon me?

To answer some of your questions, yes, Ive been keeping logs and records along with my friends. I never said your dreams are any different. I choose to contextualize my meaning in a cliche because those cliches are where I used to draw some resonance from when I first got along into this thread of the occultism culture. I admit my thing was badly written, but even so, personal attacks dont seem to really make any sense coming from people who are so adept at picking things apart and getting to the real issues. Here is the url to an older post, written in less of a haze, if that suits you better : http://chaoflux23.livejournal.com/14130.html.

I may not be special, but it seems Ive certainly garnered special attention here from you.

I cant take any of your words personally, I know they really arent for me.
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
16:26 / 16.09.06
oh yeah, and yes, there have been actual, tangible results, but its not like that wont be picked to pieces either.

I understand the need to get to the real meat of a problem, or helping eachother find understanding, but I cant cooperate if its done in mean spirit. Outrageous as it may seem.
 
 
Char Aina
16:55 / 16.09.06
hey, you.
are you ignoring my post completely or getting to it later?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:02 / 16.09.06
personal attacks dont seem to really make any sense

At what point did I make a personal attack on you? I criticised some of your behaviour in this thread and elsewhere. I didn't call you names. Then I asked some questions pertinant to this topic. My tone was probably a bit shorter than it might have been if you'd been more courteous yourself, but that's life.

and yes, there have been actual, tangible results, but its not like that wont be picked to pieces either.

Would you care to substantiate that implication? It's quite a serious one. The reason I personally get shouty and confrontational in the face of (what I percieve to be) ill-thought-out and shoddy ideas and projects is that I want people with ambitions towards magic to be the very best magicians they can be. If you're going to be a fearless oneironaut, I want you to kick nightmare ass and come back with amazing tales of success. If you can tell us about some dream activity that appeared to manifest in your waking life, I for one would be all over it. In a good way. I reckon a lot of people here feel the same.

but Mordant, like teacher, don't you regard some little and special affection to us, little brainless and impulsive students from the back of the class ?--DHE

How am I the teacher here? In what way am I privileged--do I have access to fabled books of mystic lore that you don't, or the ear of some great and mighty sorceror who would never give you the time of day? No I don't. I'm a student. I'm stupid and impulsive and at the back of the class. You're drawing nobs on my colouring in.
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
18:17 / 16.09.06
mmm ... well, ok ...

so WHO'S or WHAT is the teacher? (yeah, this is a methaphysical one) ...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:27 / 16.09.06
This is a further deviation into Offtopica, but when things are going as they should be we teach each other here. Lots of different people with different disciplines. There are a handful of posters I look to especially for advice (although they seem to be leaving in droves) but anyone here is potentially a teacher. In time, I might be picking chaoflux's brane for dreamwork techniques.
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
18:33 / 16.09.06
euhm, yeah, oh yeah, only trying to joke since two or three posts ago ...
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
18:44 / 16.09.06
Would you care to substantiate that implication? It's quite a serious one. The reason I personally get shouty and confrontational in the face of (what I percieve to be) ill-thought-out and shoddy ideas and projects is that I want people with ambitions towards magic to be the very best magicians they can be.

I'm not nearly the first person who has had these experiences, for instance the well-known Scarab Sychronicity of Jungs. If you want an academic inquirey into it, you have an example. My personal appprouch is more along the lines of what Jung touches upon in these quotes:

"What we are to our inward vision, and what man appears to be sub specie aeternitatis, can only be expressed by way of myth. Myth is more individual and expresses life more precisely than does science... Thus it is that I have now undertaken, in my eighty-third year, to tell my personal myth. I can only make direct statements, only "tell stories." Whether or not the stories are "true" is not the problem. The only question is whether what I tell is _my_ fable, _my_ truth."

"Meaninglessness inhibits fullness of life and is therefore the equivalent to illness. Meaning makes a great many things endurable--perhaps everything."


Anyways, wouldn't being the best magician they can be include not getting caught up snares such as my foolishness? Or do you mean to say that you are trying to help me, personally?


If you're going to be a fearless oneironaut, I want you to kick nightmare ass and come back with amazing tales of success. If you can tell us about some dream activity that appeared to manifest in your waking life, I for one would be all over it. In a good way. I reckon a lot of people here feel the same.

Okay, well thats what my whole post was about in the first place. Im looking for non-biased participants who I dont know in person, and I've already made all the contacts I need to from the different places Ive cross posted this to, as well as gauged interest in the online community project Id like to get started on. So, Im working on it. Like I said, my own personal treatment, is underway. I'll let you know when I decide to make it available.
 
 
Char Aina
19:21 / 16.09.06
Anyways, wouldn't being the best magician they can be include not getting caught up snares such as my foolishness? Or do you mean to say that you are trying to help me, personally?

i wonder why you characterise the back and forth here as a snare.
i dont feel trapped in any way, and i doubt anone else does. you ward off discourse by making it sound like a mistake to engage with you, and i wonder why you do that.

if it's altruism, trying to make sure folks dont waste their time then i thank you, but respectfully suggest that you let folks make up their own mind.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:15 / 16.09.06
Okay.

So you go: and yes, there have been actual, tangible results, but its not like that wont be picked to pieces either.

And then I go: Would you care to substantiate that implication? It's quite a serious one.

And then you're all like I'm not nearly the first person who has had these experiences, yadda yadda yadda.

And I'm all "Buh?" because this is not an answer. I did not ask you to substantiate the concept of dreamwork, with which I am familiar and in which I engage, off and on. What I asked you to substantiate was the implied accusation that, even were you to present some good solid results here, they would be "picked to pieces" by an unkindness of limeys.

Anyways, wouldn't being the best magician they can be include not getting caught up snares such as my foolishness? Or do you mean to say that you are trying to help me, personally?

Look. It's really simple. This is a forum for, and I quote, Faith, magic and mysticism, bodywork, and applied psychology. It is the best forum of its kind that I have come across on the net, full stop. I want it to stay that way. The fact that it is a public forum means that for it to stay that way, certain things need to be challenged. Assumptions need to be challenged. Weak ideas need to be challenged.

Otherwise we're going to end up full of people who worship SATAN by wearing black, frowning, and swearing at their actual mums!!1!, Discordians who demonstrate their complete freedom from social and cultural mores by quoting Monty Python every five minutes, and 34-year-olds who are soulbonded to Raistlin Majere. Do Not Want.

It would be nice if you, personally, were to benefit from participating in this forum. If not, well, that's your loss. I won't let it become the Temple's.

If you meet the Invisibles on the road, kill the Invisibles.
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
21:32 / 16.09.06
"Buh?"

My bad, I was confused over what you meant I was implying.

So basically, you are asking me if I have proof that you guys are dicks?

Does a bias against anyone who does not post often count?

Everything else, fine. I don't care. It just takes more to change a mind rather than drive ones off ideas you just dont happen to agree with or think are fashionable. Its still overkill, and it doesnt get the results it seems you've intended. But hey, I don't have any more gripes about it, water under the bridge.

I don't think my ideas were so very weak, as they were unfashionable to the jaded 'experts'. But it is true, I left out alot of elaboration and technical details, for some stupid reason, I thought it wasnt nessesary.

This is all offtopic, and I really dont care about hashing these things for the sake of who is right. You can have it, you are right, I shouldnt have dared to make such horrible and distastful attempt at trying to find people who would be interested in participating in a project with me, especially after I didnt map out every detail in my very first initial post about it, while on top of that using a cliched stucture. You are so right, I am so wrong. Instead I should have been posting here for years, built up respect and a peer network, and then maybe found myself comfortable to make my pitch using the patterns of langauge they are more comfortable with, while respecting the high bar set by all the superb quality of treasures found in this here Temple, aka the best internet occult forum in the universe. That would have been much better.

That all sounds silly, right? Of course, but thats the impression Im getting. I must be stupid, because thats obviously not the case.



Im so sick of this, are we done yet?


If you would go back to actually challenging my weak ideas, rather than this bullshit, it would be appreciated.
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
21:37 / 16.09.06
also: if anyone is in the Portland Oregon area, and interested in this thread, check out this event. [This Tuesday ]
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
21:39 / 16.09.06
Hey, let it go now and check this article. Maybe you want to read this too.

What do you think people?
 
  

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