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Discussion of the behaviour of Deus est Daemon Inversus [Formerly "Mordant's Personal problems in Temple"]

 
  

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Spatula Clarke
16:06 / 03.05.07
Could we not just break with Barbelith tradition and request that Tom ban a wanker for being a wanker, without having to have another ten pages of (well-intentioned) hand-wringing that won't make an ounce of difference to Tom's final decision anyway?
 
 
Evil Scientist
18:24 / 03.05.07
It's kind of hard to argue for a result that might/would allow him to keep polluting the boards. But once we jettison him we'd need to establish exactly what level of wanker someone needs to be in order to usher them out the airlock, and who gets to decide.

However, as I say, we could do that once he's in the Outer Darkness.
 
 
illmatic
19:16 / 03.05.07
Oh Randy, will you marry me?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:28 / 03.05.07
He promised me that I would be his bride.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:32 / 03.05.07
I think Randy speaks STRONG TRUTH.

I used to think we shouldn't ban people just because they're being twats, but recently I've started to care much less. The board's a much nicer place without people like DEDI, why should we be kind and magnanimous and open-hearted and egalitarian?

DEDI has been warned once about his behaviour. Obviously his comments in the BDSM thread are not bannable per se, but if you want a reason, what about not engaging with the discussion thereafter? He does this all the time - says stuff, goes away. It's difficult and annoying; the man is, quite frankly, a complete arse and the board is being dragged down because he posts here.

Most people wish he wasn't here, he doesn't contribute much, he says nothing of any consequence other than that which really upsets some of the boards most delightful and inspiring posters so why don't we just ban him?
 
 
This Sunday
21:20 / 03.05.07
I agree, and I do believe deliberate rudeness should be a bannable offense. It's not, but it's not like it's God's own decree (and even then...), so it is shiftable.

Unfortunately, I do think everyone on the chopping block should be allowed one post to prove themselves past the change of the regulations. If there is a change. You have to grandfather in previous behaviour.

And I always thought Randy was a 'she.' I don't want to have learned something in a DeDI thread. That's counterintuitive to the whole thing.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:39 / 03.05.07
Don't worry. I'll still take you as my wife.

Collective 'you'.
 
 
Olulabelle
21:55 / 03.05.07
What's the collective noun for E. Randy Dupre's wives? A giggle?
 
 
The Falcon
23:04 / 03.05.07
A shmup.

He does this all the time - says stuff, goes away. It's difficult and annoying; the man is, quite frankly, a complete arse and the board is being dragged down because he posts here.

Pretty much, yes.
 
 
Quantum
00:58 / 04.05.07
why should we be kind and magnanimous and open-hearted and egalitarian?

Well, I can see an argument *for* being kind and magnanimous and open-hearted and egalitarian. I'd prefer to keep an eye out and engage DEDI when he comes back next time and see what happens, rather than ban in absentia. If only because as Haus is wont to point out, if we're banning for rudeness and poor quality posting then we may need a posse and some rope.
 
 
Quantum
00:59 / 04.05.07
For example, why ban DEDI and not Scarlett 156?
 
 
This Sunday
01:49 / 04.05.07
I remember the 'wherefore the gun' stuff, which I never kept up with. What was the rude, rude behaviour? Maybe we should ban Scarlett 156, too. Maybe not.

So long as we grandfather in everybody, I'm happy with whatever regulations are set down, really. Setting them up and then punishing in retrospect... which I don't think anyone's going to do, anyway, but I figured it needed saying.
 
 
Olulabelle
05:55 / 04.05.07
Serious question: Why don't we just ban Scarlett 156 too?
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:13 / 04.05.07
Perhaps throw Morpheus on there too, if we doing a clean-up that is?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:49 / 04.05.07
Currently my response to "but if we ban Dedi we'll have to ban Morph, Scarlett etc" is "Oooh, may we?" which I realise is possibly not of the greatest utility.
 
 
Olulabelle
10:57 / 04.05.07
But perhaps it is?

Perhaps the 'discuss at great length and give benefit of the doubt' approach does not seem to work, as what happens is people rise up again like annoying little waves splashing water into a boat, generally pissing people off but not quite enough for us to be able to do anything about it until we're knee deep and everybody's starting to feel very uncomfortable.


So if we were to get rid of those people the boat would, for the moment, stop filling up with water and we could all continue as we wish to. Plus, it might send out some signals that we do not tolerate being prodded.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:03 / 04.05.07
*removes glasses, massages bridge of nose*

Strong truth. But then we come back to having a ToS that people must agree to, and more to the point having some kind of sanction to invoke other than "ooh, you wait till Tom finds out!"
 
 
This Sunday
11:43 / 04.05.07
I'll reiterate that if new rules/standards are put in place, everyone needs to be grandfathered in for at least one post past. Also, the terms are going to have to be example-driven or somehow definite, unless it's just by majority decision. Rudeness is hard to agree on, but an unwillingness to further discussions can sometimes just come about because someone realizes it's not a battle going to be won by either side, or that it's getting personal or whatever. I'd say this is clearly not the case with some posters, and note that a few of the popular kick-'em-out-for-rudeness nominees have, in fact, been removed from other boards/groups, as well, so there's prolonged, outside-Barbelith confirmation of problems.

This is all probably unnecessary, and if it's insulting to anyone, apologies concurrent with the paranoia. The air turns a bit pitchforks, torches, and maybe a noose for good measure occasionally. Names roll forth. Good reasons and very real frustrations driving people there, sure, but...

Though, to be honest, nobody's been mentioned in the revival of this thread and elsewhere recently, hereabouts, that I don't think should at least be considered for banning, if not actually banned. Excepting DeDI, who should probably just be banned in retrospect. Like exhuming Cromwell to exact punishment. Or kicking a dead horse off a cliff because even though you left him lying dead long enough to stink really bad, it doesn't mean you can't get rid of him now.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:07 / 04.05.07
Charming though your stream of consciousness is DD, perhaps "it's like a witchhunt, it's like a lynching. Oh. No, it isn't." might not add a huge amount of clarity. Also, DEDI is still active on the board, as this discussion so far has made quite clear, so I am unsure where your last paragraph came from.

Now. Bear in mind that in the greater scheme of things Scarlet_156 didn't actually do anything that bad - she made some utterly cretinous posts in a few threads, which she then failed to support, and then started popping up whining about how nasty British people were, and then started a pisstake thread about the British sailors held in Iran. Annoying, but not awful. Some Islamophobia and other tosh, which she then did not respond to questions about.

The issue there is not that she did anything particularly bannable, but rather that she was irritating and gave no evidence that she was ever likely to contribute anything of any value to offset that. Not that this is hard and fast, of course - we had some idiots claiming that the Fetch's gematria was sufficiently interesting to put up with or indeed explore his ideas about the Holocaust not having happened.

So, the knowledge that she was never likely to do or say anything worthwhile makes the mild irritation factor of most of her posts more irritating. See dragon, also.

Morpheus was a bit different, as he regularly behaved in an actively offensive way to people and made offensive statements. He would then disappear for prolonged periods of time, so there was never a sustained level of irritation and he did not really reach the density of a troll.

DEDI's recent activities have not been trollsome, particularly - they have, however, shown no real ability, before willingness even becomes an issue, to interact with other people on Barbelith in any positive way. He has not apparently registered or understood anything that was said in the BDSM thread, and there is no evidence that he will. I don't read his contributions to the Temple with much attention, but he appears primarily to make long, incomprehensible posts and then disappear.

So, the issue here is not really that someone is currently trolling, indulging in harrassment, or indulging in any of the -isms that might get a head of steam behind a banning thread, but that someone is being annoying, is not responding to any requests not to be annoying and does not give any reason to suggest that any further contribution will be at best more improved than "less annoying", and also that he has in the past, as Ganesh said, presented us with a very clear case of harrassing and abusive behaviour for which he probably only escaped banning for by climbing down. The case for morpheus actually trolling was much clearer than Scarlet_156, although sufficiently diffuse to be less obvious than DEDI, but a number of factors - I imagine not least that it seemed _less_ emotionally damaging to wait for him to disappear again than to go through the effort and upset of a banning thread. If banning remains such a production, this will no doubt be the saving of many a borderline troll.

There's also the question of one's limitations, in terms of wit or mental health. The otehr thing about morpheus was surely that at least some of us, at least some of the time, just felt sorry for him - see 33 and Paranoidwriter as other examples of same.
 
 
This Sunday
12:44 / 04.05.07
I just meant that it does get a little we've got a list, lets start ticking off names around these parts every so often. There is provocation, to be sure, but I'm glad when it's over, or at least died down. Can't we just once bend the rules is emotionally satisfying, but I don't like it when I stop and think about it.

There is something to be said for being kind and magnanimous and open-hearted and egalitarian. Why not? Doesn't mean we can't have rules and abide them.

Clearing the field may feel right, in an immediate sense, but I'd hate to see anybody useful caught up in the sweep.

DeDi has been actually and verifiably offensive and antagonistic. Scarlett's managed to offend me, but there may be others here who weren't bothered by her islamophobic or Brit-despising moments, or don't consider them ban-worthy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:51 / 04.05.07
Yes. As is being discussed. However there were people here who were not offended by the Fetch's International Jewish Conspiracy arguments. That some people are not offended is not in itself a good reason not to talk about whether or not to ban someone.
 
 
This Sunday
13:15 / 04.05.07
Absolutely agree, Haus. I wasn't concerned about the existence of discussion, but the nature/direction. Which, wasn't really my place to comment, but I noticed myself get swept up in the house-cleaning aspect, and was posting from that standpoint.

What stopped me was the other day's barbannoy business with PMs and browser crashes, my own posting history, and a few similar events of a stopped-conversing nature that got me re-thinking the 'sufficient contribution/conversation' side of the current 'what is bannable' discussion(s). Not that anyone was calling for - or would - any ban out of that, but that misunderstandings do occur sometimes. They must, as I get the feeling you think I'm disagreeing with you much more than I usually am, if and when I am.

With DeDI there doesn't seem to be any case for misunderstanding, nor with Morpheus. So I can't make and won't make a defense of them, except that I think the really rotten stuff of DeDI's came from before his reprieve. Now it's just dismissing everyone else and not engaging in actual discussion about anything. I don't think he should be banned for what he's done recently, necessarily, but because I think it may've been a mistake to not ban him in the first place.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:41 / 04.05.07
In terms of DEDI, I think that's about right, yes.

So, when one asks why Scarlet_156 or morpeus or whoever have not been banned yet, the simple answer is proably "because nobody has felt sufficiently strongly about them, for one of a number of reasons, to start a banning thread". Those reasons might include pity, a lack of expectation of success, inertia, or the awareness that often the hassle and emotional damage of starting a banning thread is greater than that of waiting for the person to wander off, challlenging them until they leave of their own accord or waiting for them to explode so violently that there will be less unpleasantness in the banning thread for worthwhile members.
 
 
Quantum
14:18 / 04.05.07
I've got this dreadful sense of dejá vu where we all decide the best course of action and agree what we should do and then the functionality of the board makes it impossible. Even if we decide to retroactively ban all the borderline trolls and Tom does it straight away, what's the point? None of them post here anymore*, and we're then faced with a precedent that if someone is unpopular or not contributing enough to the board (which is a pretty nebulous benchmark) then they get banned. Then you get people saying we should ban Haus for often getting into arguments or Mordant for calling an arse an arse and what hypocrites we are for banning X but not Y. I don't want to be 'slippery slope where will it all end think of the children' but I honestly, truly think the best thing is to just start a new board, not called Barbelith, with a banhammer by the door and a clear ToS that people must agree to.

More concisely- we disagree on who to ban and why (e.g. Dead Megatron) so airlocking the corpses of some old trolls will serve no purpose and won't improve the board.


*except possibly DEDI whom I suspect will face a frosty reception if he does return
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:33 / 04.05.07
This is all probably unnecessary, and if it's insulting to anyone, apologies concurrent with the paranoia. The air turns a bit pitchforks, torches, and maybe a noose for good measure occasionally. Names roll forth. Good reasons and very real frustrations driving people there, sure, but...

Maybe, but only because the board membership is entirely powerless to do anything other than try and drive the fucktards off by keeping on banging on about them. If we had a nice and simple way to go "consistently acting like a prick = ban" and act that threat out, there'd be no need for pitchforks and torches.

Scarlett's just thick as pigshit. That's not a bannable offence. DeDI's done far more than just prove his own stupidity. Repeatedly.

Seriously, let's just fucking ban him. Tom, please to ban. Thanks. Bye.
 
 
Princess
16:36 / 04.05.07
Well, I'm practical and hopefully I might end up as a mod.

DeDI means more work, for no noticeable benefit.

Ban. Ban. Ban.
 
 
Olulabelle
17:46 / 04.05.07
There is something to be said for being kind and magnanimous and open-hearted and egalitarian. Why not? Doesn't mean we can't have rules and abide them.

Well of course there is and that's what we are all the time. Repeatedly giving people chances and endless circuitous conversations about it which wear really valuable posters out, but it doesn't seem to get anywhere. The whole DEDI thing is a really good example. He was a complete arse especially to Mordant, he was rude, obnoxious and sexist, but because we are kind and magnanimous and open-hearted and egalitarian we let him apologise. Now he is still here, being annoying and upsetting valuable posters, to the extent that people are having to once again waste their time writing about him in other threads, and that always leads to people feeling miserable with each other which is a shame. And really, they could and should be spending that time writing about fascinating things.

If we'd bannned him, that wouldn't be happening.

We don't currently have immediate plans for a new board and it could be a year or more before we get one. I don't think it's wise to put decisions on hold for that long, or at all on the basis of 'one day we might.' If I did nothing now about climate change and waited until I'd bought my autonomous house, there might not be a climate to care about by the time I'd built it. The same goes for the new board concept; when we've got it, it will be lovely to set the rules as we would like, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't address the issues we have now.

I'm not usually the propononent for banning, at least I haven't been in the past but I do think that sometimes there is a case for being less kind and magnanimous and open-hearted and egalitarian, like for example now.

So perhaps we should ban DEDI because he has had his chance and because without him the board will be a more stable, calmer place. The same applies to Morpheus. As for Scarlett, has she had her chance? Probably.
 
 
Tom Coates
17:55 / 04.05.07
I'm unclear. Do you guys want me to ban him or not?
 
 
Olulabelle
18:19 / 04.05.07
I do. Randy does. Princess does.

Several other people think we technically can't but would like to.

At least one person thinks we shouldn't.

How many definite 'yes' votes do we need?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:21 / 04.05.07
I'm honestly not sure where that confusion comes from, Tom - my reading of this thread since it became active again is that there's only one person expressing concern about banning him, and that concern is more to do with it setting a precedent. Which, no offense to DD, is an argument that comes up every time there's talk about banning *anybody*.

And as far as that one goes, I don't really care if it sets a precedent any longer. Quite frankly, I think the board could do with it.
 
 
Feverfew
19:04 / 04.05.07
I have to pretty much go with what Randy says at the top of this page, and vote towards banning on those grounds, unless exceedingly well convinced otherwise.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:32 / 04.05.07
As far as my own position goes, Randy and Olulabelle have both been spying INSIDE MY HEAD, as far as I can tell.

Yeah. Sling the fucker out.
 
 
This Sunday
22:28 / 04.05.07
Eh, after work and unconsciousness, I say ban DeDI. I think I always said ban DeDI. Retro-ban, even.

I agree some of the others may prove to be no-hopers, and some have, but some have not yet to enough to probably get a deciding vote on.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:20 / 05.05.07
Ban him. We can discuss where to go from here once he's out.
 
 
Princess
08:17 / 05.05.07
So I think that's seven definite votes to ban. Is there anyone who actually does want him to stay?
 
  

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