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Discussion of the behaviour of Deus est Daemon Inversus [Formerly "Mordant's Personal problems in Temple"]

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Tryphena Absent

13:04 / 07.05.07

Well said stranger.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:47 / 07.05.07

I'm just concerned we're banning DEDI on the grounds that he's a wanker, which is a pretty movable goal. I certainly don't object to his banning but I do think we should take care, maybe I'm just being overly paranoid. I don't want to see justifiable claims of barbecliquery etc.

This is why I made the ASBO analogy. Now, I've missed a lot of the stuff he's done recently, so have probably missed a lot of the sexism and what-have-you, which in itself, as well as couple with abusive PMs, were they still happening, would probably be banworthy. Even leaving that aside (TTS, I'm not leaving it aside because I don't think it's worthwhile, just because I've missed a lot of it and therefore don't think it my place to comment on it until I've caught up. Just didn't want you to think I was belittling that part of the equation, which, if it is as I suspect it may be, is probably the more important part anyway) he's being a wanker AFTER PROMISING NOT TO IN EXCHANGE FOR BEING ALLOWED TO STAY.

To ban him for doing this would, to my mind, be substantially different to banning someone just for being a wanker. I have more to add, but I have to rush out so I'll try to add it later.

16:45 / 07.05.07

I still kind of feel that sexism just doesn't get picked up around here as much as it should.

What's the best thread to discuss this in?

16:47 / 07.05.07

...because I agree, obvs. and I think it needs a whole thread to address. I want to aim at a board that will entice posters like Bengali/Plums/GGMeme back.

21:01 / 07.05.07

Or maybe a board where all the posters who are FI and have bothered to stay will feel comfortable?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:10 / 07.05.07

I guess the Feminism 101 thread. Trouble is unless you have something to hand which everyone can recognise as an artifact of sexism*, you just don't get anywhere. The people who can see it don't need to be told; the ones that do need to be told just wander off muttering about chips on shoulders and go somewhere they can make blonde jokes.

*not sure what form that would take, actually; at this point I rather suspect that if a serial killer given to abducting and murdering females and carving ALL WOMEN ARE BITCHES on their cold flesh with a box-cutter turned up and started posting pictures of his work in the Creation we'd have a couple of people defending it as an ironic and challenging artistic statement.

21:20 / 07.05.07

Or maybe a board where all the posters who are FI and have bothered to stay will feel comfortable?

That's the one, yes.

21:33 / 07.05.07

Sorry. I just smarted for all the FI posters still here for a minute. I know you didn't mean it that way.

22:00 / 07.05.07

Olulabelle, having recently begun throwing myself through older threads in all forums, I'm really happy so many interesting women have stuck it out on the board. I'd forgotten some of the things that kept me from registering to Barbelith, because certain posts or sequences of posts nearly perturbed me away. I can only presume if I were actually part of the factors being maligned versus being maligned by being part of those doing the maligning, I'd possibly have booked it straight away.

Actually, there's a few that were squarely aimed in a me-type direction, but I missed them first go-round.

I'm glad I didn't bail on the idea of participating on the board, but I'm doubly glad people like you and Talks to strangers haven't, because I can still read other peoples' posts without posting, but I can't read what isn't posted.

I still think there should be some polite code to prod people, rather than pronouncing something sexist (or racist, or whatever), so that they can decide for themselves whether they want to go request a word be modded out for another, or a paragraph or post entirely revised. Because most of it is, well, thoughtless, and it's giving the poster the opportunity to reconsider their own material, that I think would charge a change, more than just blatantly telling.

*

01:41 / 08.05.07

Once again, though, that's putting the burden of dealing with the consequences of someone else's sexism/thoughtlessness on the person who has already been harmed by it, which isn't terribly attractive to me. It's like someone dropping a glass vase on your head and then other people expecting you to clean it up and describe for them the way not to break glass things, or if you're going to how not to break them on other people. There must be a better way.

02:42 / 08.05.07

I'm not sure it's wholly like the vase/head analogy, because some people genuinely don't realise that they're glassing someone with what they post. The reasons for them not realising it are many and varied and I'm emphatically not saying that we want a board full of people who lacerate those around them whether it's intentional or not. But this board is the real world and you have to deal with the real world that's here right now. Yes, more people should speak up if they notice this stuff, and yes in a perfect world the burden of dealing with stuff shouldn't fall on the aggrieved party, but a perfect world it ain't. I think the best we can manage is to challenge what we see when it arises and to ban if the person challenged doesn't agree with the needs of the people here and the countless unrepresented people who may be reading.

If someone's causing harm then something needs to happen. If they don't realise they're causing harm and other people do then the people who realise are the only people who can explain the situation. If the person causing the harm resists that explanation then chances are they're heading closer to receiving the boot in their mail.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

03:00 / 08.05.07

I don't mind explaining why I don't like getting a vase to the head or helping people not break vases on heads next time, what bothers me is explaining that I've just been hit on the head with a vase and didn't like it very much only to have a geek chorus show up to tell me how I'm complaining about nothing because There Is No Vase, free yr mind, it is just words on a screen, stop choosing to be offended etc. And next time be more careful not to break other people's vases with yr big stupid head.

*

03:44 / 08.05.07

Yes, more people should speak up if they notice this stuff, and yes in a perfect world the burden of dealing with stuff shouldn't fall on the aggrieved party, but a perfect world it ain't. I think the best we can manage is to challenge what we see when it arises and to ban if the person challenged doesn't agree with the needs of the people here and the countless unrepresented people who may be reading.

The trouble is that some people are willfully not seeing it, and then it again becomes the responsibility of the bleeding person to pick up the glass shards and show them to everyone, along with the blood, over and over. Even if it can be established to anyone else's satisfaction that injury has occurred, what follows is that other people discuss the extent of the injury and whether the bleeding person was in the wrong for standing under a precariously balanced glass thing, and the intentions or lack thereof of the person from whose hands the glass thing was dropped. In these discussions, too often, most of the people doing the talking are not regarding the bleeding person as the authority about their own injury. I'm culpable in this, because I'd much rather get into intellectual debates about the laws of gravity and the slipperiness of glass when held by people who due to their own lack of experience with fragile objects are prone to habitually dropping same, than empathize with someone who is hurting, ask what they need, and take up the responsibility of making sure they get what they need.

"It ain't a perfect world" isn't an adequate response to this situation for me. I need to do better.

04:16 / 08.05.07

< offtopic > It makes me very sad to hear the change in tone and attitude in the posts of id, apophenia, and others on whom I relied to bring the optimistic, gentle, diplomatic forces into play. As much as I dislike the string of debilitating conflicts for their specific sexist or otherwise nasty content, I dislike them even more for the toll they take on lovely people. You guys mean a lot and I hope you don't feel you've been undermined by those of us who feel compelled to take a sharper tone at times.

08:09 / 08.05.07

If they don't realise they're causing harm and other people do then the people who realise are the only people who can explain the situation.

This isn't, in my view, what's happening with DEDI. He seems to be entirely aware of the effect his words have and of the board's stance on his behaviour. He just doesn't give a flying crap.

Frankly, if DEDI wants to remain on the board then he should be giving us reasons why he should stay not the other way around.

08:14 / 08.05.07

Is anyone still defending DeDI's behaviour? In single instances, I could almost see someone making the effort, but overall? Not everyone called for a ban, but pretty much everyone agreed it's an unfuck'im situation. Potentially irretrievable.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

09:11 / 08.05.07

You know, the saddest thing about rereading the earlier parts of this thread is how happy many of us were to get DEDI's initial apology and promise of good behaviour. It was the kind of response I'd been hoping we'd get more often, and I kind of took it as proof that I was right about the way to handle things. It's always horrible to realise you've been had.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

10:22 / 08.05.07

On the plus side, I for one have learned from the interaction. I don't feel as obliged to dutifully suck down this kind of shit anymore just to keep someone else's arse clean. I had far less compunction about tearing, say, Epop a new one over his crap, because I've already been through the process several times and I know that it doesn't work.

10:37 / 08.05.07

I hope you don't feel you've been undermined by those of us who feel compelled to take a sharper tone at times.

Cheers Gourami. It's not that, it's more a) an awareness that any kind of positive change in posting styles rests on the board changing quite radically (Terms and Conditions, moderator powers). As Tom has made clear this ain't going to happen....

And b) a general stiffening of attitude with regards to the limitation of text based conversation.

And for the record, I did make several attempts in The Temple to get Dedi to draw on his personal experience and alleged knowledge of ceremonial magickzzzz, and open up a little bit but he never did. He really reminds me of the satire of the pompous Thelemite that was published in Nemesis the Warlock in 2000ad years back. Hermetic knowledge as a substitute for basic human goodwill and self awareness.

10:37 / 08.05.07

Oh, and on that note, I hope we haven't lost XK.

13:01 / 08.05.07

Is that a possibility? Because if it is then I hope as you do.

13:18 / 08.05.07

I haven't seen her post since discussing/rowing about this with Haus in Barbannoy. It'd a real tradegy to lose her.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

13:26 / 08.05.07

Ooh dear. Let's hope not.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

13:34 / 08.05.07

Actually, that raises another issue. Given that people are reluctant to do the "ban this fucker or I'm leaving" thing, as it's often seen as emotional blackmail, the worst thing about all this shit, every time it happens, is that divisions are created between people who should by all rights be getting on famously. Aside from the impact on the quality of the board, this is serious damage these fucks are causing sometimes. There are quite a few cases, I'll guess, where posters aren't getting on as well as they used to precisely because of these arguments. I have no idea how one would go about quantifying that, but I have to say it upsets me more to see friends falling out than it does to see other people being dicks (even though the dickery pisses me off enormously). A more effective bannination system may also help alleviate this, though I am well aware it's not in the post.

13:52 / 08.05.07

He really reminds me of the satire of the pompous Thelemite that was published in Nemesis the Warlock in 2000ad years back.

Heehee...

...a natural Domina (Domino?)

I think XK is just avoiding the Policy for a bit, ze's active elsewhere (bear in mind we've got a book to prepare and cats to herd, magical cats, the hardest to herd). I think that's fair enough TBH.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

16:59 / 08.05.07

Unfortunately, that wasn't the only example I was thinking of.

17:19 / 08.05.07

Sorry, that was to apophenia. I know what you mean Mr Stoat, I hate seeing people fall out (YOU BASTARD!).

18:10 / 08.05.07

I'm still here. I took a mini anti-barbe vacation to digest the input and recalibrate.
Hopefully most of the weirdness has been settled via PM's as I'm not too keen on pumping any more energy into conflict for a while.

I've been reading this discussion in its updated incarnation. It seems conclusive the current board mechanics do not have any partial options. Either a poster is someone the community wants to work with including the investment of time/education (and not a little social etiquette hand holding) or they're not. Having already gone the community rehab route once the only other option on this board for a problematic poster is showing them the door.

I think the path between Mercy and Severity is often indicated by making sure you're taking care of your responsibilites while being compassionate. Our primary responsibilty is to respect the 'ouch' factor of bumping into each other. If someone can't or won't regulate themselves when it's pointed out they keep slamming others then there's the door.

Now back to magical cat herding.

19:55 / 08.05.07

*Accio Felid!*

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:12 / 08.05.07

I apologise for the use of the word "psycho" above. It is an offensive term and I shouldn't have used it. Bit more frazzled than I thought I guess.

21:44 / 08.05.07

I did wonder.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:50 / 08.05.07

I'm going to ask for that line to be redacted.

07:40 / 09.05.07

Right, in accordance with the massive majority of Barbelites, DEDI has been banned. If people really feel he's been hard done-by, I can un ban him.

07:48 / 09.05.07

Thank you Tom.

09:16 / 09.05.07

Thankyou, Tom.

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