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The World Cup: J'accuse!

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
11:23 / 05.07.06
It would seem impolite and impolitic of me to start posting on ibis' thread about Vegetarianism for Meat Lovers if my gist and sum were only that meat is great: I've just eaten a really good pork sausage. It was really juicy and full of delicious additives. I don't eat meat btw.

Yes, Xoc. It would be trolling. Which is precisely what they were doing. I'd strongly suggest not taking that as what is being held up as best practice in this thread.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:27 / 05.07.06
And yet again, as Lurid points out, let's keep the comparisons fair. This thread is not comparable to a vegetarian recipe thread, it is closer to his example. If the people who don't like football and post on Barbelith want to talk about alternative pastimes, or anything other than football (i.e. the equivalent of a vegetarian recipe thread in a meat-eating world), and thus find refuge from the coverage of the World Cup, they can, contra to some of the "how dare you invade our safe space!" outbursts found in this thread, enjoy a discussion on which football does not impinge in pretty much every thread on the board except two, of which this is one.

I mean, look Xoc, I'm sorry if you've had some unpleasant experience directly or indirectly connected with football - so have I (and don't get me started on PE teachers). But that doesn't meant that any of us can expect to be able to avoid justifying our dislike for anything on Barbelith (except, as I mention above, things which are general agreed to be core principles - i.e. we dislike racism, sexism, homophobia), or that statements like "football supporters... own the world after all" will just be accepted as given.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:28 / 05.07.06
Sure, it is about the hate, which is fine. But, given that, you can't expect people to treat it with respect.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
11:33 / 05.07.06
If anyone, deep down, honestly, and as a football supporter, feels 'disempowered' at the moment, I dare say I'll buy them a pint.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:35 / 05.07.06
I'll admit to a lot worse than that for a pint, Grandma.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:40 / 05.07.06
What's that coming over the hill? Is it a straw man, is it a straw man?



I don't think anyone's said they do feel "disempowered" as a football supporter, AG.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
11:50 / 05.07.06
Vent your spleen about this summer's tedium-fest here is the explicit message in the thread summary, Flyboy. That's not an invitation to discuss how we'd all rather knit instead but an invitation to discharge some of the emotion generated by the prevalence of the World Cup in our lives for weeks. I think my comparison with ibis' thread is valid.

Clearly you see it all differently. You are perfectly welcome to do so and to post about it. I just think it's an odd choice to do so in this thread.

I haven't even been to look at the thread in the World Cup in the Games Forum, to which I am a stranger, entirely. There would seem to be little point, since I know I could not engage in any meaningful way with it.

But this is the Conversation Forum and threadrot is the norm. I'll cope. And I'll justify my dislike of football where it seems necessary. Your tone implies I'm weaselling out of doing so in some way. I don't think so. It would be necessary perhaps in the thread in the Games Forum. I don't think it would be in this thread.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:54 / 05.07.06
I wasn't trying to imply that and I'm sorry if you took it that way. I was referring to when you said:

All my life, I've had to make excuses for and justify my dislike for football and all its associations. I wasn't particularly expecting to have to do so on the Lith.

My point is, with a few exceptions I don't think it's safe for any of us to expect not to have to justify our dislikes on Barbelith.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
11:54 / 05.07.06
Well not in so many words, perhaps, Mr F.

But look at that thing! Slap some ketchup and mayo on it's face, force-feed it twenty-odd lagers, get it to hang out with Allen in the Groucho, and that's it. That's pretty much it.

'ENG-ER-LAND
ENGE-ER-LAND
AND WE ALL LIKE ENG-ER-LAND!'

The baying hogs that support such matters will be right behind you, I'm sure.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
12:06 / 05.07.06
OK, got that. I see where you're coming from. I did say Lith and not this thread.

I think I am exercised, still, on the subject after an incident on Saturday afternoon. I was watching Cabaret in a tent in Leicester Square at Europride and Topping & Butch finished with a song about Beckham. They asked for a show of hands in the audience and there were more supporters of the Couldn't Care Less About Football camp, which was a delight to me. I felt happy to be among my ain folk.

Then, ten minutes later, we're on Compton Street, surrounded by carefree moxes fluttering in the sunshine. Down Dean Street parades a crowd of fifty or so young men, waving flags and wearing England gear or painted faces and chests. The Pride people part to let this aggressive, chanting crowd pass through on their way to a pub further down to watch the game.

There was a big chill cast over the sunny afternoon as this menacing spectacle ate up our space. That's what football means to me. And, hence, I feel defensive of this particular thread. It has been a valuable safety valve for me and, I know, for some others.

And that's why we've such easy meat for such as Panto Bunton, as Haus has pointed out upthread.
 
 
Mistoffelees
13:17 / 05.07.06
As predicted, the stocks are falling. - 1,59 % so far, and it doesn´t look, as if it will stop there...

But what I only learned yesterday evening: although the german team has lost, they still have one more game left to play! Shalt my money never again be safe?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:48 / 05.07.06
I'd strongly suggest not taking that as what is being held up as best practice in this thread.

Indeed not. You, Fly and others have argued with the original intention of the thread. Which is all well and good, and as has been pointed out, is partly what Barbelith's about.

Panto and others, however, have just been threadrotting. Which is, I guess, par for the course in Conversation, but the consensus seems to have been that this thread wasn't welcome in G&G, so it came here.

Not sure what my point is, exactly, other than I'd gladly have a debate as to the pros and cons of major football tournaments (which would be a G&G thread), but to have people turn up every few posts just to shout "YOU'RE SHIT, AAAARRRGGGHHHH!" gets a little wearing fairly quickly.

(Hands in the air- I took the bait, I really did, and I shouldn't have. But there it is).

I still don't see why it's such a big deal to ask for a football-free thread. Yes, of course it's not on the level of having a man-free thread in terms of importance*, or anything like that- but it's not like we're limited in the number of threads that can be extant at any given time, is it?


*though I reckon it's probably about the same level as having a spoiler-free thread, which we generally manage (with some exceptions).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:52 / 05.07.06
I still don't see why it's such a big deal to ask for a football-free thread.

Hmmm. How many threads currently active on Barbelith are not football-free, though? I count the World Cup thread in G&G and this one. No football anywhere else on the entire board...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:55 / 05.07.06
Kinda what I already said.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:59 / 05.07.06
Yeah, I get that, but to start discussing the team's prospects in any of those wouldn't be quite so rude, given that the thread starter hasn't usually made it clear that that's something they wouldn't like.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:01 / 05.07.06
Although if we can have a fight like this every four years, I could get quite excited about that.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:10 / 05.07.06
Stoatie... I feel like we're going round in circles here. You said:

I still don't see why it's such a big deal to ask for a football-free thread.

It is not a big deal. There are loads. Almost every thread on the board.

This is not a football-free thread. It never was. It is a thread about the football. It is an thread for complaining about the football. Threads for complaining about things are never going to stay free of people talking about the subject, by definition. Threads for complaining about things that other people on the board like (and against which there is no convincing moral/political argument) are never going to stay free of people defending the subject.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:39 / 05.07.06
My specific complaint in my last post wasn't about displaying the football-hate.

As I think Haus has said here and elsewhere, the behaviour of some people involved in footballing subcultures is vile. Not disputing that, and as he said, it reguarly makes me question my passion for the game.

Anyway, my complaint is that somehow, via the axis of RAGE and football-hating, it seems that it's acceptable to make comments gleefully invoking PramFace/C**vSc*m territory, vis suggesting that fans bankrupt themselves to buy their sprogs football kit.

I'm criticising those, as I don't think they have any place on Barbelith anywhere, 'even' in a thread about letting off steam/anger. It's not an IRL 'real-time' conversation, people have time to think and edit.

There's ways and ways to express anger. People hate the world cup? Great? No reason you should like it.

Revisiting hoary and currently powerful class-loathing dynamics to do it on Barbelith ain't something I'm going to not respond to.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
15:00 / 05.07.06
Not really seeing the hatred, GGM. Personally, I've said some terrible things about middle-class football fans, and the stereotype pint-throwing-version-that-disgraces-our-country-etc, but some (actually most) of my best friends irl have been watching this load of shit avidly.
 
 
The Falcon
15:01 / 05.07.06
Also, there are several entirely legitimate points - by which I mean I agree with them, although perhaps for slightly different reasons - about the media coverage which have been made, particularly by Alex, but could have been better done so in F,TV&T and/or Books'n'Writing - though, given the people complaining about this all tend to contribute quite regularly to Big Brother threads, there is an opening to accusations of double standards. I would suggest that's the way to actually concretise it in two years, when doubtless the press will again lose any sense of proportion and impartisanship.

I welcomed Pato's intrusion because, while not as pointed as Flyboy's criticisms, it came at the point I considered, frankly, the thread to be plumbing ever greater depths in the abysm of whinge. Complain all you want, guys, really - I enjoyed it for the first four or five pages, because it was largely done or rebutted with an element of wit and panache. It latterly became an almost non-exchange, which was pretty adequately satired by PB and Gumbs - 'Hate football.';'Yeah, definitely mate, I really hate it.'

In all, however, I've quite enjoyed the thing.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
15:17 / 05.07.06
I welcomed Pato's intrusion

I think we all did, in a way.

(This post was originally longer, but it wouldn't have been work-safe.)
 
 
The Falcon
15:50 / 05.07.06
I'm always up for a bit of Barb-slash, granny.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:08 / 05.07.06
Fly- yes, I agree.

But I also said o have people turn up every few posts just to shout "YOU'RE SHIT, AAAARRRGGGHHHH!" gets a little wearing fairly quickly.

And, y'know, it does. It's not something that I think needs legislating... it's just politeness. Like when someone says they hate spiders and don't even like the idea of them, it's generally considered rude to keep talking about them just to piss them off.

Of course, as has been pointed out, this only works if people rise to the bait, which I've already confessed to having done.

Anyway, you're also right in that this is going round in circles. I'm agreeing to disagree here.

GGM has, however, raised some interesting points, which would probably be better addressed in a thread without as much shouting.
 
 
The Falcon
16:58 / 05.07.06
If someone went on about how they hated spiders constantly for a month, I imagine you'd maybe want to entertain yourself at their expense after a while. I would.
 
 
Ganesh
19:12 / 05.07.06
If someone went on about how they hated spiders constantly for a month, I imagine you'd maybe want to entertain yourself at their expense after a while. I would.

Particularly from the relatively comfortable position of knowing you were surrounded by people who loved spiders, just like you did. If, during that month, the media were turgid with rousing spider imagery, spider-flags fluttered from every other car and large groups of spider face-painted people roamed Soho chanting their spider-love, you might well feel suitably 'majority' in your piss-taking.

Or it might be a bit of a shit analogy.
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
19:29 / 05.07.06
Further, would you bait someone about how great spiders are, by describing them in loving detail while pretending ironically that you hated them, and all in a place where you would have to make the choice actively to go and listen to them complain about their arachnophobia too?

But as Ganesh says - there are probably be better parallels.
 
 
The Falcon
20:22 / 05.07.06
I'm sure there are; I didn't make it.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:31 / 05.07.06
No, to be fair, I did. For the point I was making I think it served its purpose... but yeah, not the best analogy ever.
 
 
illmatic
20:52 / 05.07.06
Actually, has Pato Banton posted anywhere else on the board, ever? I wondered if it was the return of our long term troll yet again.
 
 
The Falcon
21:21 / 05.07.06
Yeah, he has, and I really don't think so, convenient as it might be. Formerly OMG HUGGLES LOL and Mummy's Pork Sword, couple other things, something about rugby at one point.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:24 / 05.07.06
No, I'm fairly sure he isn't either. (Though you're not the first person to suspect that).
 
 
illmatic
21:25 / 05.07.06
Also known as Runce then?
 
 
The Falcon
21:50 / 05.07.06
Don't think so, Runce is We're getting MarrigiBUGUNDUNCE, presently, afaik.
 
  

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