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Shadowsax: discussion of possible disciplinary action

 
  

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Regrettable Juvenilia
07:05 / 24.04.06
I think if this thread is locked (and maybe even if it isn't) there's a need for a space to have some discussion of the issue after the fact.
 
 
Cherielabombe
08:16 / 24.04.06
Good idea, Flowers and Flyboy.
 
 
Tom Coates
11:08 / 24.04.06
I could not agree more. I've posted a slightly edited version of what follows to the thread in the Conversation, but ask people to respond to it here.

I asked people to send me private messages with their opinions on the sitiuation as a way for me to get people's views without them feeling that they'd be entering into a larger debate or argument in which they might get burned. I wanted to make sure that the opinions expressed in this thread were in fact representative of general board opinion, and to check against the allegation that it was a small number of users arguing the same arguments. I've read this thread pretty thoroughly and I've had about thirty or so private messages, mostly from people who haven't posted to the thread or have only posted once or twice.

As I suspected, the messages I've been receiving have broadly reflected the board's mood that ShadowSax should be ejected, although I was interested to note that there was a slightly higher than expected resistance to banning in the private messages than in this thread, which suggest to me at least there is a proportion of people who don't agree with a ban but who aren't prepared to say so publically. I think that's a shame, although I understand it.

Those people who are resistant tend to be of the opinion that although they find ShadowSax's opinions personally reprehensible, that the way he's been treated on the board has not been entirely fair. Many of them, I think, were more convinced that he should be banned before some of the arguments (in their minds) got out of hand. Among this group - probably around eight or so people - there was a sense that ShadowSax was making a legitimate effort, but that rather than being encouraged in that effort and lead further in a positive direction, he was criticised for not going far enough immediately. I have mixed feelings about whether or not this is a fair accusation or not, but I don't doubt that it's the reaction of a proportion of the board.

As I said earlier, I thought it was important to get opinions from some of the less vocal members of the community to see if they reflected the stated opinions, and I think it's important to report that - fundamentally - they basically did.

As a consequence, after reviewing all of this stuff, I'm prepared to go ahead with a banning. That is, of course, if people don't feel there needs to be a formal voting process or whatsoever. Either way, ShadowSax will have access to the board for another twenty-four hours or so to respond. I've also written to him saying that this is my current conclusion and explaining my reasons - actually in a bit more depth than I've done here.

The major thing that I've said to him is that although I think he should probably be leaving the board, I've not been entirely comfortable with the way we've handled this situation. Ganesh's proposal to take this to a thread and have a week to debate it was - I think - completely right. But what I want us to consider now is how things got to this state in the first place. If we're prepared to spend a week and a half debating whether a problematic new user should be ejected, then perhaps we should be prepared to spend more time helping problematic new users acclimatise themselves to the board, get their head around the politics and appropriate behaviour, and to actually spend a bit more time persuading people and supporting them so they don't make the mistakes that might get them into this situation.

I'm going to propose that we move straight on from the banning of ShadowSax directly into another thread now about how to avoid situations like this one in future, how we can improve the ability of people to get acclimatised and to understand the culture and the limits, and also to look at how we might change or focus our own behaviour to stop it reaching these states.

I'd also like us to look at users at the moment who are reacting badly to the culture that exists here and actually ask ourselves as a group why they're feeling that way, why they're having problems and be prepared to adapt a little to respond to them - not necessarily to meet them halfway but at the very least to figure out where the problems are and be critical enough to explore whether some of them lie with us. I think we need to do this honestly and openly and positively - not because anyone in particular was wrong in the handling or treatment of Shadowsax, but because it's in everyone's best interests to stop this happening again.

I think this might be the best way to move past this situation and some of the disagreements on the board, while accepting that at this stage ShadowSax's continued presence is clearly going to be unsustainable. Are we agreed?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:44 / 24.04.06
although I was interested to note that there was a slightly higher than expected resistance to banning in the private messages than in the thread, which suggest to me at least there is a proportion of people who don't agree with a ban but who aren't prepared to say so publically.

Well, possibly. Or, since your request for PMs went to the Conversation, it's possible that people who read the Policy are more inclined to ban, whereas people who don't read the Policy are more inclined not to. One might also look at length of time spent on the board as a factor, or the split between moderators and non-moderators.

Notwithstanding, we probably can say that this was a rift issue, and that even if the number of people on one side of the rift is greater, the people on the other side of the rift deserve attention and consideration, as long as both sides manage to keep their contributions relevant to the issue through reference to and focus on the facts of the matter.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:47 / 24.04.06
I completely agree that a sort of 'aftermath' thread is needed. However, I think it should be presented as a more general review of the process, which allows for contributions from people who, for example, rather than asking what more the board could do in future to persuade and support the likes of ShadowSax, are interested in discussing what more the board could do in future to support those people who are the targets of a poster such as ShadowSax's direct or indirect abuse.
 
 
ShadowSax
13:21 / 24.04.06
well i understand your move and i appreciate the problems you definitely have. i followed the rationalizations from people here rather curiously, making me first a misogynist, then a bad stylist, then a troll. obviously, my simple opinions about one facet of our enormous and complex society were impossible for some to handle as adults.

i appreciate you letting me know. altho i honestly believe that it's a completely pussy move, i understand that it's easier to deal with one new person than it is to deal with a hundred fools.

i wish you the best with this place. that a thread on "howl" turned into ignorance, actually, made me decide on saturday that this wasnt a place where there was enough literary thinking going on for me to enjoy it, really. but to each his own. obviously, this is a great community for a lot of people, and i hope everything works out, and that you're able as a group to figure out how to act a little more reasonably.

peace.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:31 / 24.04.06
altho i honestly believe that it's a completely pussy move

Dispelling those baseless "misogynist" accusations as thoroughly as ever, dude!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:33 / 24.04.06
Hardly worth saying that the thread on Howl was remarkable for not actually citing a single word of the poem, is it?
 
 
Slim
14:00 / 24.04.06
i appreciate you letting me know. altho i honestly believe that it's a completely pussy move

I have to admit, this gave me a chuckle.
 
 
Spaniel
14:08 / 24.04.06
If only Tom had more in the way of yer actual man-balls he'd fight for Shadowsax.
 
 
illmatic
14:25 / 24.04.06
I think that may be what is known as baiting.
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:43 / 24.04.06
although I was interested to note that there was a slightly higher than expected resistance to banning in the private messages than in the thread, which suggest to me at least there is a proportion of people who don't agree with a ban but who aren't prepared to say so publically. think that's a shame, although I understand it.

In view of such a (just) comment, I want to declare publicly I was against the ban. Not that I don't find SS to be an unapologetical jerk - I do - but only because I'm against the concept of banning a member for being an unapologetical jerk. I don't feel SS was what has been defined as a troll, and he certainly didn't use the community to to do annoying spamming (self-)avertising, which I find should be the only reasons for one to be banned.

Perhaps we could avoid such unpleasant situations in the future by creating some sort or interviewing process for new members? (and this is particularly easy for me to sugest since I'm already in)

Anyway, the evilest side of me will miss watching SS and Haus gnawing at each other, but, hey, the less evil side of me does find Barbelith will indeed be a much more peaceful virtual place now.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:47 / 24.04.06
Yeah, DM. For other people, Shadowsax's behaviour wasn't a spectator sport - that's kind of the point.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:56 / 24.04.06
On both sides, I think, Illmatic. What has happpened is, essentially, that on the verge of being banned somebody has maintained that actually they were leaving anyway, because people on Barbelith are stupid. Theoretically this functions as a face-saving exercise, but unfortunately is such a familiar gambit that it is likely to lead to derision. Since the person is on the way out anyway, this is a bit of a ritual cleansing, probably, where the soon-to-be-departed gets to explain why they are actually glad they're being banned because their emic reality tunnel is bigger than yours, and those left behind get to deliver a lusty chorus of "do let the door hit your arse on the way out". At that point, theoretically, cosmic balance is restored.

However, there's a pretty steep law of diminishing returns here - pretty soon we will segue into "what have we become?", and actually there's a kernel of sense in that transition. Even if we feel that we have removed a basically malign influence from Barbelith - or helped a malign influence to realise that ze doesn't want to be here anyway - we have still done something which is going to require a chunk of post-match analysis. We've also failed to help a very damaged person to be a more successful social entity - which I don't think is or should be the aim of Barbelith, and which in this case I am pretty sure could never have happened, but is certainly an aim better achieved than not.

So, would it make sense to lock this thread, and then, once the dead has been done, start up the next thread on lessons learned from this whole experience, perhaps tomorrow morning?
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
15:21 / 24.04.06
Sounds sensible to me.
 
 
Dead Megatron
15:30 / 24.04.06
Yeah, DM. For other people, Shadowsax's behaviour wasn't a spectator sport - that's kind of the point.

Which is why I didn't say anything in the public fora until he's fate was decided. But I still stand by my opinion: as bad as his flaws were, I didn't find then "banning-material". My attitude towards him as more of the "yeah, whatever" nature.

Not that I care, mind you, about him being banned. Democracy has spoken, and I abbide by it.
 
 
Dead Megatron
15:32 / 24.04.06
until he's fate was decided

I mean, until hisfate... duh
 
 
Smoothly
15:34 / 24.04.06
I’m up for locking the thread, and beginning the phase of reflection and post-mortem, but I think doing the dead would be taking the self-flagellation too far.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:41 / 24.04.06
I think if we actually have to have sex with corpses, we're overdoing the penitence. And the corpses.
 
  

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