BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Shadowsax: discussion of possible disciplinary action

 
  

Page: (1)23456... 14

 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:04 / 17.04.06
A couple of caveats:

1. There's a whole ongoing discussion to be had about the ways in which Barbelith, as a 'community' or not, deals with a whole number of things, from people who act in a way that would be recognised across the internet as 'trolls', to people who say things that would be greeted with HYUK-HYUK-HYUCK and backslapping on pretty much 90% of said internet. Mister Disco started a thread about this recently, it's just a bit further down the page in Policy, and it contained many good and actually quite troubling (for me) points about this stuff. However, the problem we have is that precedents have been set - we can't unban the Fetch, or zoemancer, and nor would most people want us to. That being the case, banning is on the table as a way of responding to posters who push a line that is particularly abhorrent to the collective Barbelith in one way or another. But, perhaps more importantly and certainly more problematically, the precedents set have also led to the question "does Barbelith/the Moderators/Tom take some forms of bigotry less seriously than it does others?"

2. This thread is sort of an ongoing work in progress, and it's not all going to be in this first post. I'm going to be posting stuff that Goodness Gracious Meme has collated/written, and will attribute where I do this, because obviously ze and I are not a shared consciousness. The everything-in-one-opening-post-in-a-systematic-ordered-structured-case model is, I'm sorry, just unrealistic. Please bear with me.

Both of these caveats are there because this thread is partly being started out of a sense of urgency - I feel it is pressing that we have this discussion explicitly now, because in my opinion:

a) Shadowsax's continued freedom to roam the board and, crucially, to give vent to his opinions on women, confirms the rumour that Barbelith takes misogyny less seriously than it does certain other forms of prejudice/discrimination;

b) Shadowsax's continued freedom to roam the board and to give vent etc. makes the board a minefield for those who do not know what to expect from him - imagine joining in the female musician appreciation thread and thinking "great, a fellow Ani Difranco fan!" only to be confronted by his opinions on rape shortly thereafter;

c) Shadowsax's continued freedom to roam the board and etc. is causing continued, often heated, but not particularly productive discussion of him and what should be done about him in the Policy and elsewhere.

This thread is an attempt to focus that discussion, and hopefully make it more productive if not less heated. Now, on with the show (more follows):
 
 
Ganesh
10:10 / 17.04.06
The everything-in-one-opening-post-in-a-systematic-ordered-structured-case model is, I'm sorry, just unrealistic.

I don't think it's unrealistic to expect that, when we're floating the idea of excluding someone permanently from the board, it's worth being more structured in terms of laying out the reasoning than is currently the case. I agree it may not be easy to do so in a single post, though, and appreciate your taking the time (and posts) to do things properly.

It's probably worth mentioning also, at this juncture, that this is not just a thread for moderators and/or moderator decisions. Everyone with an opinion is welcome to post, presumably including ShadowSax himself. Shall we agree to attempt to come to a conclusion of sorts by next Monday, April 24th? Ish?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:23 / 17.04.06
GGM says:

"Okay. Have been a bit disengaged with the board recently, but on catching up I've noticed a)this thread(the Duke one), and b)a selection of threads in which people discuss the possibility of this happening.

"I've been disengaged partly because Barbelith has felt like an unpleasant place to be recently. One of the primary reasons for this is the presence of Shadowsax.

"Why do think that there is a case for banning Shadowsax? Because he has persistently made reference to women only in offensive, generlisating and mysogynistic ways. He has consistently minimised the seriousness of sexual violence against women, and caricatured woman as devious, controlling, 'in charge', 'whores'.

"In response to a long-standing challenge to this behavour, there's an occasional apology in a policy thread for a specific word, and absolutely no change in behaviour/attitidue.

"I believe that Shadowsax does not consider himself to be a mysogynist, but I believe that his actions and behaviour are mysogynist, and have no place on Barbelith.

"References:
from the Duke thread:

if all it takes is an accusation to cancel a sports team's program, we're in big trouble.

"Minimising an accusation of gang-rape.



i think even if she is found to be lying and also an immoral attention whore, her behavior shouldnt be determined to represent either women or blacks.

"Do I need to gloss this one? The apology for the use of the word 'whore' might cut some ice if SS were a new poster. He isn't.

"He has been embroiled in these arguments before and been informed in no uncertain terms that this kind of attitude and the manifesting of it are not acceptable on Barbelith.

"Further, SS's continued presence on this seems to have given both him and the board a sense that Barbelith is a space where this kind of hateful bias aginst a group, (in this case a gender-defined one) is welcomed and tolerance. And further, that, given that we're extremely quick at banning posters who display other prejudcies, that Barbelith doesn't value female-id'd posters, and that mysogyny is a lesser 'crime' than some other bigotries.

"How could SS and others think otherwise?"

I (G for Flyboy) would like to add that some people have suggested that the "context" of the phrase "immoral attention whore", the conditional nature of the sentence, someone lessens the misogyny here. But I don't actually accept that.

As an experiment, let's imagine that Shadowsax had said "even if she does turn out to be an immoral black bitch", or "even if she does turn out to be an immoral fat dyke". I do not think that the same attention would have been paid to the conditional phrasing. And rightly so. Shadowsax could have come up with all kinds of apologetic qualifiers ("She is black, and I was just describing her with that word, sorry if I caused any offence!"), and many of us would still not feel that this freed him from any charge of, say, racism. So why is what he did say any different? This seems to confirm the allegation that Barbelith is blind to, not to mention more tolerant of, misogyny than it is where racism and homophobia are concerned.

More from GGM, in the form of the background and Shadowsax's "previous", next.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:26 / 17.04.06
Very good question. Possible ways to determine when to run down the curtain:

1) A cetain number of posts are made (not one I'd favour)
2) A certain number of moderators have said aye or nay
3) A certain number of _people_ have said aye or nay
4) Tom Coates states clearly that he either will ban or will refuse to ban on the evidence provided.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:29 / 17.04.06
References should, I think, be to posts, with timestamp, not solely to threads.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
10:29 / 17.04.06
Should someone pm Shadowsax to see if he wants to participate in this?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:32 / 17.04.06
what is dimissively entitled 'minority interest group'. Does this mean it'd be more understandable if the accusation was made agains someone who wans't black? who wasn't female?


Just for accuracy: I thought he explained that he was referring to the lacrosse team as minority interest, not the black woman.
 
 
Ganesh
10:35 / 17.04.06
Should someone pm Shadowsax to see if he wants to participate in this?

Yeah - would you do that, Denfled?

Regarding your points, Haus, I think a real-time cut-off would give all concerned a sense of how soon they need to consider the arguments, read the threads and form an opinion. I agree wholeheartedly with the links-to-posts point. I think it'd be reasonable to expect Policy moderators and moderators of those forums in which ShadowSax has posted allegedly offensively to contribute to this thread at some point, allowing for personal limitations of time, Internet access, etc.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:37 / 17.04.06
As an experiment, let's imagine that Shadowsax had said "even if she does turn out to be an immoral black bitch", or "even if she does turn out to be an immoral fat dyke". I do not think that the same attention would have been paid to the conditional phrasing. And rightly so.

And again, I'm not "justifying", but "immoral attention whore" is not the same as "immoral whore". The intention may well have been to maliciously/mischievously (the latter is a generous interpretation) use a trigger word, but "attention whore" does not necessarily relate to female sexuality. (cf. Morrissey: "world tour, media whore, please the press in Belgium").
 
 
Jack Denfeld
10:48 / 17.04.06
I pmd Shadowsax (ugh, I didn't really wanna be the guy private messaging people about their possible banning).

Hey Shadowsax, there is a thread in policy on whether you should be banned from Barbelith for what some perceive as a general misogynistic attitude you may have displayed since you've been at Barbelith.

Examples are being given, and there has been a suggestion that we come to a decision by next Monday. It would seem right that you participate in the thread. Thanks- Jack


I think I included everything he needs to know.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:48 / 17.04.06
GGM says, of what follows:

"I wouldn't, and haven't asked for SS to be banned based on one post, or one thread. This, for the purposes of my request to have him banned, or at the very least 'frozen', is some of the background of what may have seemed to some to the quick-to-anger response evidenced in the Duke thread."

I say: isn't GGM a much more reasonable person than me? I started thinking about showing dude the door around the time of his first post in the Fathers For Justice thread, in which he said:

but i can say from direct experience that attys for moms routinely and categorically promote false/overblown claims of violence and abuse in order to villify the dad.

and:

i can say from direct experience that dads will always get less custody time than mom. if both parents are ruled fit, the mom gets more. period.

How one can have direct experience of every custody battle ever fought between a heterosexual ex-couple is a question I will leave you, gentle readers, to ponder over dinner, or in the shower or bath. You might also want to note that in his first post to that thread, Shadowsax also suggests that kidnapping Blair's son was an idea he could see the justification for, although of course he doesn't condone it.

Let's note that our boy ends said post on a note that, in my opinion, shows his real attitude to the board better than all the subsequent half-apologies and maybe-if-I-lower-my-profile-they'll-all-forget-that-stuff stuff:

if you think i'm mistaken here, you're wrong and ill-informed. sorry bout ya.

When I call him on this, he replies:

actually i thought it best to lower to the standards already presented in this thread.

anyway, just wanted to fend off any disagreements. dont i get the last word?


At this point, were I in Tom Coates' position, I would have taken measures to ensure that this was, in fact, his last word on Barbelith. But what do I know?

Back to GGM (I can't keep putting those quote marks in, the rest of this post is GGM):

"Ill-informed speculation presented as fact here:

dad is the primary earner, earning a higher wage due to the culture of dad working the "main" job (not due to the myth that men make more than women for the same job).

which isn't backed up, as refuting posters do, by any external source, becomes generalising about women...

it's also a fact that mom will illegally keep dad from kids

and then generalised into a theory of dads and feminism:

the only reason that fathers are in this situation is because of a massive and often angry, disruptive feminist movement. they got what they wanted. dads are trying to fight the remnants of that whole thing. you know, "all heterosexual sex is rape," that kind of stuff.

Same thread:

earlier in the 20th century fathers were always given custody. this changed prior to the feminist movement, with the establishment of the "nurturing" parent idea, which was then summarily used to put children with mom. but the money stuff started later, as did the new laws on restraining orders. those are from the feminist movement which has cast women as victims in general.

He raises equal pay as a 'myth' and then dimisses both Haus and Jack Fear when they respond with figures and sources.

Ie, he is not interested in any argument that destabilises his 'women have all the cards'/are unfairly in charge POV.

FFJ, page 4.

regarding domestic abuse charges as they related to f4j. i'll answer this as proxy first, to say that to direct concerns of custody to custody matters, domestic abuse of a partner has as much relevance to a custody case as does any other allegation of past criminal behavior. many fathers rights groups will position themselves in this way. the good, valid (i think) reason is that domestic abuse charges are often overblown or the allegations come after the custody situation has already been engaged.[Italics GGM's.]

Assumption and propogation, with no evidence, of the idea that women (in his egs, its all women and men, afai can see) routinely exaggerable/lie about domestic violence."

[Back to me Fly/Gundetta: there's more stuff from the FFJ thread to come, and we haven't even got onto the 'Sensitive Rapist' or 'Pro-choice should extend to men' threads yet...]
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
10:51 / 17.04.06
I think we should get rid of the idea that we are doing any of this on principle. I don't want to stick up for Shadowsax because I find him odious and boring. Does anyone want to stick up for Shadowsax for any reason other than a very compromised, given that Barbelith has banned people for less egregious behavior, commitment to "free speech"? You may consider yourself the kind of person who challenges opinions and so on, but this is primarily a social space and if you don't have the social skills to form basic bonds with at least a handful of other posters, ie if no one will stick up for you, then your opinion-challenging is bullshit.

I have to go to work. More later.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:53 / 17.04.06
I think we should get rid of the idea that we are doing any of this on principle.

I think we should "get rid" of any ideas we don't actually hold, but leave other people to have their own motivations, Q.
 
 
Ganesh
10:54 / 17.04.06
Good start, Flyboy/GGM. Obviously the question we need to hold uppermost is not merely "are ShadowSax's contributions objectionable/misogynist/offensive?" but "are ShadowSax's contributions sufficiently objectionable/misogynist/offensive that he should be banned from Barbelith?"
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:56 / 17.04.06
Miss Wonderstarr: True - however, the use of the word "whore" to describe a stripper is deeply unwise, and the explanation - that lots of men are whores (in that sense) for me doesn't mean the same as "the term is gender-neutral". Just as calling a man a bitch doesn't mean "this term is gender-neutral" - it means "this term has a specific gender-reference, and by applying it to you I am using the contrast between the gender reference of this term and your gender identity I am making a counterpoint".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:56 / 17.04.06
Oh, I think that almost anyone will be able to form bonds with a finite number of people on Barbelith - people we've banned before have had people pulling for them throughout. However, there is certainly another question here, which is to what extent somebody should be banned because they are espousing repellent ideas, and to what extent they should be banned because they are clearly not reading or taking on board anything other people are saying, and just banging the same drum over and over again to the detriment of threads and the perception of Barbelith.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
11:14 / 17.04.06
however, the use of the word "whore" to describe a stripper is deeply unwise, and the explanation - that lots of men are whores (in that sense) for me doesn't mean the same as "the term is gender-neutral". Just as calling a man a bitch doesn't mean "this term is gender-neutral"...

I agree, but I think if we're doing this properly and setting a precedent, this should be done accurately and fairly. If Shadowsax is banned, it should be for the right reasons, surely.

I feel that G for Gundetta's examples - let's imagine that Shadowsax had said "even if she does turn out to be an immoral black bitch", or "even if she does turn out to be an immoral fat dyke". I do not think that the same attention would have been paid to the conditional phrasing - weren't exactly parallel.

It's not just the conditional that makes Shadowsax's comment... "slippery". It is also the fact that he didn't say "if she does turn out to be an immoral whore", but "... attention whore". (And the fact that he edited, perhaps.)

I do not want to be seen as the one person "defending" Shadowsax. However, I think it's important to be precise when dealing with an important issue like this.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:20 / 17.04.06
Agreed.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:00 / 17.04.06
I'd like to make a further contribution here. The posts above have linked to and explained the perceived offence behind what Shadowsax has said.

Another important part of the case, I believe, is how his posts make people feel.

[And I think these two aspects would apply to any such banning case - something I feel it's important to bear in mind here. That we are working out a precedent and framework, not just an individual discussion about one person, who (to some) might not even be worth that lengthy discussion. Establishing policy for the future is worth that lengthy discussion, I think.]

I hope the contributors in question don't mind me linking to their comments on WFB thread. Collectively, those comments made an important point for me; that the presence and continued activity of Shadowsax is making this place unpleasant, threatening, annoying, even unbearable for a group of other people.

Let's see if I can... do this link to post

NINA:
Now look Shadowsax has now called a woman who may very well be a rape victim a possible "immoral attention whore." Can we please talk about this in this thread and decide what we want from barbelith in this context because the fact that he's only being treated as a moron is really beginning to do my fucking head in.

MORDANT:
Oh fuck yeah, I've just come back to this thread to post exactly that. It's got to the point where my blood starts boiling every time I see that misogynist's nick in a thread. Sorry, but I don't see why we have to put up with an apologist for violence against any group on the board.

NINA:
This isn't right.

MORDANT:
No, it's bloody not, it's disgusting. This isn't some essentially reasonable but misinformed newbie who just needs a bit of poking to get hir moving in the right direction. This is someone with form, a poster who's made it plain from the getgo that he harbours a deep and serious despite of women, who has repeatedly posted misogynistic comments and linked uncritically to misogynistic material, and has responded in a hostile and abusive way when challenged on same. I think we've put up with this crap for plenty long enough.

IBIS:
I'm trying not to engage with him at all because I think he's just a horribly malicious troll and I know anything I'll just be frustrated and stressed out if he responds to me in any way. At the same time I find it frustrating NOT to confront him, and to just leave his hateful diatribes hanging there intact.

-------------

As noted, I find Shadowsax's comments, even when collected above, quite (deliberately?) slippery and not necessarily easy to pin down in terms of explicit offence.

However, if someone were making me feel the way the posters above feel, I would want action and I too would feel dismayed, isolated and let down by anyone who seemed to be blocking or backing away from that action.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:04 / 17.04.06
Agreed again - and I would say that this is one of the problems. At times I have asked people to ignore Shadowsax, because his views are never well-supported enough to be worth discussing, but of course if you do that you are failing to
challenge them, and also making it look as if Barbelith is a place where such atitudes pass without comment, whereas if you do comment you risk pulling the thread offtopic when he responds with abuse. That is, his approach is not only offensive, but it is also harmful to the thread/topic structure.
 
 
Quantum
12:04 / 17.04.06
I am in a tricky position here because I want to ban Shadowsax despite having missed all of his offensive misogyny. I can take other people's word for it and look at the threads and such but without a better familiarity with the suit my opinion is going to be of little worth.

Why do I want to ban him? Because other posters who I value are apparently staying away from barbelith because of his misogynist rantings, and that sucks. If people (especially female id'd) are so offended by the stuff he posts that they're leaving, then that's casus belli for me. Let's not lose good posters to defend the freedom to post hatespeech.

@ Shadowsax- it's nothing personal, I don't know you or even your suit, I'm sure you are as nice as pie IRL but your influence on Barbelith seems to be highly detrimental. I support a ban.
 
 
Quantum
12:09 / 17.04.06
wonderstarr, haus- crossposted slightly. Beyond the content of his posts let's consider the effect he has on other posters, since as we all know it's the offendee who determines what's offensive. In a way it doesn't matter if he does or doesn't hate women, what matters is the effect his posts have *on* women/FID'd posters.
 
 
Mistoffelees
12:24 / 17.04.06
Banning users should always be the last choice. People should be banned, when they don´t change their behaviour after at least one fair warning. Bannable behaviour as I see it is:

- spamming the board
- insulting / harrasing other users
- posting offensive material (porn, gross-out, racist or other very offending content).

I´ll read Shadowsax´s posts, when they are linked. But what I´ve read so far [here in policy about him, for example], gave me the impression the main problem people have with him is his extreme position towards women that clashes with their own opinion. I don´t know, if that should be enough for banning someone. We have to understand, that there will always be people with whom we disagree. And if we start banning them, in the future, people may be afraid to voice their dissenting opinions and it may lead to discussions, where users beat around the bush and don´t say what they mean. Even though their opinions might not be as offensive as they are afraid they might be.

And one thing, that often makes it difficult or impossible to judge a certain situation on Barbelith is, that posts get deleted or edited and that that deletion/edit can´t be seen. On another board, the post is still there. If it´s deleted, it´s empty and it says "deleted by [name of mod]", and if it´s edited, it says so on the bottom of the post. I favour that, because that way there is more clarity, and it helps to reduce suspiciousness towards the moderators, who always are in a more powerful position than normal users.

This may have also happened with Shadowsax´s posts and responding posts, so now we can only judge him by what is left undeleted and unedited.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:30 / 17.04.06
Tell you what, Mistoffeles. Read the links. Then come back and read this thread, which has already offered reasons beyond:

the main problem people have with him is his extreme position towards women that clashes with their own opinion. I don´t know, if that should be enough for banning someone.

Then come back and tell us what you think. This is a complex issue, and it doesn't really need uninformed comment.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:33 / 17.04.06
Quantum- Indeed. Let's assume for a moment that he's telling the truth when he says he doesn't actively hate women. Even given that I think it would be hard to argue that he doesn't treat them with appalling insensitivity. (This may not even be a misogyny thing- he may treat everyone the same way, it's just that he largely posts in threads about gender-related issues, so that's the only side we see. %Maybe%. So he's either being wilfully* offensive to half the population, or to all of it. Neither really makes me put on the happy face).

*wilfully because, having had it pointed out on numerous occasions, he seems to have made no attempt to alter his behaviour in this respect. Poor phrasing is one thing, but you'd think a little more thought would go into avoiding "misunderstandings", given that these "misunderstandings" seem to occur an awful lot. (To reframe the racism/bogeys analogy that's been so useful recently, I'd consider it rather off to pointedly refuse to blow one's nose after having the bogeys pointed out).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:33 / 17.04.06
Having said which, Mist's post above does highlight an interesting complication here:

- spamming the board
- insulting / harrasing other users
- posting offensive material (porn, gross-out, racist or other very offending content).

I´ll read Shadowsax´s posts, when they are linked. But what I´ve read so far [here in policy about him, for example], gave me the impression the main problem people have with him is his extreme position towards women that clashes with their own opinion.


Note that "racist content" is identified as a bannable offence. However, an "extreme position about women" is identified as simply a matter of opinion. Not wishing to go Feminism 101 on proceedings, but this strikes me as interesting, and something it's worth all of us being aware of.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:52 / 17.04.06
People should be banned, when they don´t change their behaviour after at least one fair warning

Has anyone said to Shadowsax, "sorry but your attitudes and contributions on here are making a significant number of people distressed, angry and uncomfortable, and it would be best if you didn't post on Barbelith anymore"?

Perhaps that would only be possible once a community-decision had been made on a thread like this: or else the request wouldn't come with the weight of the community (or a representation thereof) rather than the individual behind it.

But it seems more appropriate to ask someone not to post anymore, before making it technically impossible for them to post. Isn't it only necessary to ban them if they refuse to cease posting, after a request of that kind?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:57 / 17.04.06
I don't see a huge amount of difference - except, possibly, that they could change name, wait 28 days and come back...
 
 
Mistoffelees
12:58 / 17.04.06
Note that "racist content" is identified as a bannable offence. However, an "extreme position about women" is identified as simply a matter of opinion. Not wishing to go Feminism 101 on proceedings, but this strikes me as interesting, and something it's worth all of us being aware of.

Haus, I wrote "racist or other very offending content", which includes anti-semitism, misogyny and any other offending positions.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:02 / 17.04.06
I see that Jack Denfield did ask, kind of.

*


If you post in the future. Again the problem we're having is you seem very anti-woman, but you're not trolling hard enough for an immediate ban. Many of us think it's obvious that you have a misogynistic attitude, but you're not starting threads where you just come out and say something.

I don't see how you can really recover and enjoy this board now anyway, with your start here in the child custody thread, and some of your comments in the Duke thread, you'll always have a lot of baggage.

Maybe you should consider banning yourself and asking Tom if you can reapply under a different name sometime in the future, and if you do start posting then you can try to remember why people were asking for your banning in the first place.


The difference in my eyes is that you don't have to ban anyone if they agree to stop posting of their own accord. I don't know, I suppose it's the difference between asking someone to leave your party, and throwing them out.
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
13:09 / 17.04.06
his extreme position towards women that clashes with their own opinion

What? That's a trifle disturbing. It's not just a "position", though, is it? It's a continuous misrepresentation of the facts and use of terms that degrade women. Not only does he persistently say things that simply aren't true (But in many cases can be considered a form of hatespeech), but he refuses to back up these claims with any factual evidence (because there isn't any). Expressing views that denigrate [a group] is in no way a neutral position - it's a very active assault on [a group]. When in this case [a group]= women, and the current situation is one in which a) Barbelith has been closely examining its treatment of feminist issues/female id'd posters and b) female id'd posters are offended and aggrieved because of SS, then I think it's pretty clear that it's not just the difference of opinion you're trying to figure it as. Moreover, I would suggest that if a poster's "opinions" or "positions" are such that they clash with and offend a large proportion of a community which (I would like to think) stands for the treatment of people of all genders, sexualities, backgrounds and races as people, and that poster insists on broadcasting these views*, then there is no reason for the community to continue tolerating them.

Apart from anything else, SS contributes nothing to Barbelith other than a legacy of hate and the decreased involvement of a number of female id'd posters who have contributed a hell of a lot. He's a bigot and a waste of space, and he's making making people who are anything but bigots and wastes of space not want to interact with Barbelith. There's no reason for any of us to want to keep him, as far as I can see.

*as in, one may hold dodgy beliefs, but if you don't mention them on Barbelith, no-one's any the wiser.
 
 
matthew.
13:14 / 17.04.06
I can't remember who wrote it: SS is asked to leave, but he is given another ficsuit in order to try again. He is asked not to post his opinions in gender issues and whatnot, because that would reveal who he is.

If we ask SS to change his name and change his posted opinions, what's the point? We may as well ban him.

Here's some "mathematics" based on Q's point:
the relative worth of SS as a poster = a
the relative worth of the posters that are staying away because of SS = b

if a < b, then we must ban him in order to keep the quality of Barbelith as is.
 
 
matthew.
13:15 / 17.04.06
Ah, x-post. It was Denfeld.
 
 
elene
13:19 / 17.04.06
You may consider yourself the kind of person who challenges opinions and so on, but this is primarily a social space and if you don't have the social skills to form basic bonds with at least a handful of other posters, ie if no one will stick up for you, then your opinion- challenging is bullshit.

I think you, Qalyn, should get rid of the idea that this is the sort of social space where other people must like or agree with one in order that one’s contributions be tolerated. If the question here is not whether Shadowsax has pushed a false and hateful view of a certain group in the face of demonstrations of its falsehood and hatefulness, but rather whether Shadowsax has enough friends here to be ably defended against a desire by some to exclude him then I would like to be informed of that fact, for I will leave Barbelith that very minute.

I think there probably is sufficient reason to ban Shadowsax. I consistently avoid threads he takes part in due to his intransigent misogynistic stance. Nevertheless, that must be the reason he goes, and not whether anyone likes him or not. I couldn’t give a damn whether you like me or not, Qalyn, and I’ve no desire to stay if that’s become a necessity.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:20 / 17.04.06
if a < b, then we must ban him in order to keep the quality of Barbelith as is.


That depends on how you judge the worth of (a) and (b), and who does it. Maybe evaluating "worth" is problematic. People here inevitably have friendships, loyalties, real-life love-interests. If Shadowsax had his backers on here (as Haus suggested, offensive ficsuits have found support in the past) how would you weigh up his worth versus that of, say, Nina? In terms of how many people posted in their defence? In terms of their broader contribution to the community, or their history and investment?
 
  

Page: (1)23456... 14

 
  
Add Your Reply