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Fathers For Justice dress up as Captain America, Batman. Then Get Arrested. [PICS]

 
  

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Jack Fear
20:59 / 19.01.06
No, quite frankly, you don't—unless you're prepared to back up your generalizations and assertions with a few numbers and facts.

And if you really want to "fend off disagreements," why don't you just put your hands over your ears and sing loudly, "La la la I CAN'T HEAR YOU la la la dee dah"? It amounts to the same thing.

Barbelith: Come prepared to engage, or don't come at all.
 
 
ShadowSax
21:54 / 19.01.06
how about engaging me with an on-topic opinion rather than nitpicking my approach?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:01 / 19.01.06
On the plus side, the disbanding of Fathers for Justice might help men get some sort of access to their kids, since, I am informed, the cases presented by F4J on behalf of the people desperate enough to seek legal help from them generally harmed their chances of actually getting access.
 
 
ShadowSax
22:08 / 19.01.06
honestly, i dont see how a dad's chance at seeing his kids is harmed much. but you have a point. the law is predictably annoyed at movements like this. thats a big reason that F4J in the US hasnt really gone anywhere. guys are too afraid to join.

a thought crossed my mind today about this. the decision to shut down the group was a bit quick, before the leader, o'connor, by his own admission, could even investigate the reality of the accusation. he shut it down based on the publicity alone. it wouldnt surprise me if this were another way to raise awareness of the situation in general and to launch the movement under another name.

to be honest, getting back to the original point, playing by the rules never gets dads anywhere in court. it merely stalls the situation. fighting gets them nowhere, not fighting gets them nowhere. it's easy to see how things devolve for dads in these cases. frustration grows quickly. it's really a messed up thing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:13 / 19.01.06
Shadowsax: OK... to move ontopic - in 2003, 55,000 fathers were given access to their children, against 713 who were denied access. Presumably some of those 713 are simply, by anyone's lights, unsuitable fathers - let's say drug dealers, for example. So, in that year it was possible to say of 713 people, some of whom you would probably not want around their own or indeed any children, that they never see their kids and would therefore be entitled, by your lights, to climb things. Is that a sufficient number to support the claims you are making that men are prevented from seeing their children for "having a penis"? Further, presumably the judgement was not delivered in those terms, and so some other reasons were invented to keep the fathers from their children. As such, why were similarly specious grounds not employed againt the other 55,000 penis-wielding fathers?
 
 
ShadowSax
22:14 / 19.01.06
define access. every other weekend?
 
 
ShadowSax
22:15 / 19.01.06
or, supervised visits prolly count as access, too.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:16 / 19.01.06
Dude, that's not what you said. You said that they never saw their kids. Do you now want to change that to "they don't see their kids as often as they want to, and therefore are entitled to behave illegally despite the damage this may do to their children's upbringing, social standing and indeed those occasions when they do see their children"? It's fine if you do, but you probably want to get that straight.
 
 
ShadowSax
22:21 / 19.01.06
ok gotcha. heres what i meant. the guys who are doing the very extreme actions as reps of the group are more likely than not to be fathers who dont have access to their kids. the group they represent is much larger.

often, also, these are longterm situations. and it only takes a few years, often less than that, for a parent to be separated from a child have parental alienation set in. in those cases, then, a child is older and the courts are less likely to grant decent custody. in those cases, the courts, via false restraining orders or somesuch, cause the separation and then fall back on said separation to justify continued separation, which becomes normal for the kids and then becomes forever.

but, yeah, there is a difference between the extreme members. they are more in the martyr stage of their situations. F4J ranks members, i think, as the level of disruption they are willing to cause, which is usually defined by what they have (or dont have) to lose.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:35 / 19.01.06
So, the shock troops are kind of sacrifices? They have basically given up seeing their kids again, so are prepared to break the law in order to raise the profile of those who haven't?

Fair dos - certainly they got a lot more press than Familes Need Fathers, the group they splintered out of.

However, I remain unconvinced that they are necessarily doing the right thing, in terms of getting what they want from the situation, or in terms of what is best for the child. This is where things get complex. The aim, at least in the UK, when setting access levels is to look to the best interest of the child. This is a problem to start with, because it's a hypothetical - how do you work out what will be the future consequence? So, where a home has been badly disrupted, as a home in a divorce often is, the status of the wife as in many case the provider of primary care and, for want of a better term, the "homemaker" is likely to argie for her to be given custody. This is awkward.

OTOH, what I'm getting from your posts is a sense that you feel the system to be not only inefficient but actually corrupt. The restraining orders are false, the courts discriminate against people for having penises (which, as I say, is presumably not the given reason). This feeling of persecution leads easily to rhetorical statements like "why shouldn't an angry father kidnap the Prime Minister's son? Thge government has kidnapped his children." This fails to take into account a) that they have not kidnapped them and b) that it is talking about taking a five year old child away from its family, scaring the Hell out of it and quite possibly screwing it up forever, for no immediately discernable gain.
 
 
w1rebaby
09:47 / 20.01.06
It should be noted that a court denying a father access is not the only way a father might not get access. A common complaint is that some mothers restrict or entirely deny access, illegally, and that nothing is done about it.

It's quite interesting to read the account by someone who's quite involved with the organisation and the issue on Urban75. He left F4J quite a while back; the impression that he gives is of a very fragmented organisation, with a lot of people unhappy with O'Connor's leadership ("control freak" and "alcoholic" were two phrases used). I don't know how much is just bickering but the fact that a "Real F4J" had already splintered off, and that it only took this one leaked fake plot to push the organisation over the edge, means that a lot of it rings true to me.
 
 
ShadowSax
11:50 / 20.01.06
speaking from the US, that perspective, the corrupt part of the system is very real. the most compelling facet here is the money (of course). ever since the clinton administration essentially legislated the term "deadbeat dad," the money shift became pervasive.

what happens is relatively simple. the federal govt pays local officials to collect child support. that is based on the kickback programs started by clinton to "encourage" collection on deadbeat dads. this has actually encouraged, of course, local (state and county) officials to get as much child support as possible. how do they do this? by placing the child with mom. dad is the primary earner, earning a higher wage due to the culture of dad working the "main" job (not due to the myth that men make more than women for the same job). anyway, custody determines support. the primary custody holder receives child support. so giving primary custody to mom necessarily results in a higher rate of child support changing hands than if dad had primary custody. this results in more money from feds to local govts.

the rest of it is also true. it's a fact that mom's attys will encourage false claims of abuse. it's simply a fact. it's also a fact that mom will illegally keep dad from kids, and because of the way the laws are set up, dad can do little. benefit of the doubt is given to the accuser, not the accused. and you cant unring a bell. as soon as "abuse" is mentioned in court, it's a done deal.

these are facts. i know this stuff first hand. i understand the feelings that f4j was going about their mission in the wrong way, but you dont get headlines like "fathers group brings charts and graphs to parliament."

remember one other thing - the only reason that fathers are in this situation is because of a massive and often angry, disruptive feminist movement. they got what they wanted. dads are trying to fight the remnants of that whole thing. you know, "all heterosexual sex is rape," that kind of stuff.

and dads have been fighting in the legislatures for years, decades. the lack of visibility of those efforts is precisely why we have these efforts.

and kidnapping IS actually a good term to use. how else to explain it? it's not uncommon for a woman to move jurisdictions to get into a better legal situation, taking the child from dad without notice or knowledge, and this move is sanctioned after the fact by the courts, who then declare that the best interests of the child is the status quo, which mom invented illegally.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:59 / 20.01.06
It becomes ever clearer from what perspective you're approaching this.
 
 
ShadowSax
12:06 / 20.01.06
so - i shouldnt have an opinion because i know more about the situation than onlookers?

or did i misunderstand?

sorry - whats your experience on this. not trying to get carried away.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:27 / 20.01.06
My impression is that your own personal experience of this is proving to be a hindrance rather than an asset when it comes to an objective assessment, ShadowSax. Hence we get bizarre statements such as:

it's also a fact that mom will illegally keep dad from kids, and because of the way the laws are set up, dad can do little.

Does 'mom' here stand for all mothers? Surely this is not a fact. I suspect the rhetorical device of singular-standing-for-plural is actually very representative of your outlook on this - "she illegally kept me away from my kids, LIKE THEY ALL DO" or something close to that.

Your somewhat idiosyncratic and deeply reactionary understanding of feminism is also unsurprising for those who have been reading between the lines in your previous posts.

Since you're so big on "facts", do you have any statistics or other evidence indicating that bogus claims of spousal abuse are more common than, oh I don't know, unreported incidents of actual spousal abuse? What would you make of the statement that "Only about half of domestic violence incidents are reported to police." (Violence by Intimates: Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends. Bureau of Justice Statistics Factbook. Washington DC: U.S. Department of Justice. NCJ #167237. Available from National Criminal Justice Reference Service.)

It would also be interesting to hear what sources you've used in coming to the conclusion that the male-female wage gap is a "myth" - not the US Census Bureau, I assume?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:27 / 20.01.06
Actually you shouldn't have this opinion: the only reason that fathers are in this situation is because of a massive and often angry, disruptive feminist movement. I would flesh it out but it seems to me that there is so much wrong that statement that I don't know where to begin. Perhaps someone else would like to tackle it?
 
 
ShadowSax
12:39 / 20.01.06
earlier in the 20th century fathers were always given custody. this changed prior to the feminist movement, with the establishment of the "nurturing" parent idea, which was then summarily used to put children with mom. but the money stuff started later, as did the new laws on restraining orders. those are from the feminist movement which has cast women as victims in general.

equal pay for equal work wasnt always a myth, but it is now. if you're interested in real data, unfortunately you cant look at census bureau stats, because i have to be honest, these have been skewed as well. i know how this is being read and despite the fact that i dont care how i sound, i understand that there is natural resistance to these kinds of statements. but that doesnt make them less true. for instance, offical data doesnt count child support payments as income or expenses. so dads who pay child support, as far as the IRS, the census and the normal govt stats are concerned, actually have that money as income. and moms who get it dont count it in their data. so moms who receive child support are wealthier than the stats show and dads who pay it are poorer.

actually, i have nearly equal custody of my kids. i would feel this way just based on the simple fact that i had to pay an atty and argue my case just to be allowed to see them at all. but it goes way beyond that. it's a patently unfair system from start to finish. unless you've seen it in action, you're likely to slip into normal societal opinions about it. thats to be expected. but disparaging one's opinions because they are strong isnt exactly an openminded approach.
 
 
ShadowSax
12:44 / 20.01.06
Actually you shouldn't have this opinion: the only reason that fathers are in this situation is because of a massive and often angry, disruptive feminist movement. I would flesh it out but it seems to me that there is so much wrong that statement that I don't know where to begin. Perhaps someone else would like to tackle it?

"the only reason" - obviously i'm being dramatic. there are always lots of reasons for everything. i hope you're not focusing too hard on that.

"fathers are in this situation" - i can see that this implies that fathers are 100% innocent victims of this system. in a way, they arent. but in a way, they are. in the sense that the odds are ALWAYS stacked against fathers from the beginning instead of starting with an even playing field, this is exactly a situation that fathers find themselves in, not one they put themselves into.

"massive and often angry, disruptive feminist movement" - wasnt it? so was the civil rights movement, so was the vietnam war protest movement. those words werent meant to cast subjective judgment on the movement. good or bad, it was massive, often angry, often disruptive. wasnt that the point of it?

if you have other objections that say i "shouldnt" have that opinion (yeeks), please, by all means.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:50 / 20.01.06
i shouldnt have an opinion because i know more about the situation than onlookers?

That's one way of putting it. Another is to say that your opinion is obviously biased, and probably not the best place to look for things like, y'know, facts.

I'm with Petey on this one: it's apparent that your situation makes it difficult, if not impossible, for you to approach the issue objectively, and your obvious anger is, in fact, causing you to make a number of factual errors.

I sympathize with you, I really do. I have two kids whom I love more than life itself—and I recognize how privileged I am that my job (freelance writer) allows me to be a full-time stay-at-home dad. And I'd be gutted if circumstances parted me from them.

Now, in a difficult and dispiriting situation like yours, it must be very tempting to succumb to paranoia—to believe that the system is set up to screw you. It must be a relief, in a sense, to know that it's not your fault—it's The System. Self-pity is a perverse sort of comfort.

But hear this. Relying on falsehoods, half-truths, and paranoid conspiracy theories does not bolster your case: If anything, it weakens it, making it difficult to take your complaints seriously. And that does a disservice not just to divorced dads in custody fights, but to all dads, everywhere, including lifers like me. Better, I think, to face the realities of your situation and deal with them honestly, rather than battling straw men.

So where do we begin sorting out the self-protective illusions of your worldview from the harsh truths of our shared reality? How about with "the myth that men make more than women for the same job"?

Let's look at an article from CBS News—hardly a stronghold of radical feminism. We've got studies showing woman making 76 cents on the dollar in the same job—and even when studies factor in variables such as children, they still find that women earn at least 20 cents less than men.

Now, you can argue, as this guy does, that such disparities are not necessarily the result of institutional sexism—that factors such as seniority and merit may account for much of the wage gap. And that's true, as far as it goes. But economics does not operate in a social vacuum. The numbers are overwhelming, and go across the board, from blue-collar grunt work to high-powered, high-paying professional jobs:

Female Neurosurgeons = $337,031 (median annual salary)
Male Neurosurgeons = $487,000

Female Civil Engineers = $61,000
Male Civil Engineers = $78,000

You'll also note that, in groping for causes for the gender wage gap, Mr. Wessel immediately starts blaming the victim—"Women make less money than men because they keep their kids home from school even when the kids aren't really that sick!" A sure sign of a weak argument, that.

(I have no evidence, of course, but I'll bet you a shiny nickel that if the woman in question did send her runny-eyed kid to school, Mr. Wessel would—privately, at least—have a thing or two to say about her fitness as a parent. Guys are funny that way.)

You can call it a "myth" if you want, Sunshine, but there's a mountain of circumstantial evidence you'll need to overcome before I'm convinced.

That holds for all the rest of it, too, I'm afraid—but that's for another post.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
12:50 / 20.01.06
remember one other thing - the only reason that fathers are in this situation is because of a massive and often angry, disruptive feminist movement. they got what they wanted. dads are trying to fight the remnants of that whole thing. you know, "all heterosexual sex is rape," that kind of stuff.

Okay, whatever the specifics of your situation, the above is generalising, mysogynistic nonense.

Who are 'they'? There isn't a Single Army of Feminists/a Grant International Feminist Movement. There's a broad church of theories, thinkers, activists etc.

Over here, in the Modern Feminist Spitfires thread, which you might find useful, there's a useful set of quotes by Drorkin on the misrepresentation of her position re 'all heterosexual sex is rape'. Comments?

There isn't an 'only reason' why FfJ decided to protest. Certainly, blaming 'feminists' isn't going to solve anyone's problems.
 
 
ShadowSax
12:56 / 20.01.06
jack fear, i appreciate your indepth reporting.

i'm not sure however how focusing on an offtopic argument i was using as a quick example deflates the arguments i was making about the custody situation specifically.

ok, so you say men do make more then women in equal jobs. actually, that would bolster my argument that giving mom custody would make more money for the local govts. is that where you thought i was being paranoid.

i cant argue with feminists, sorry. i know all the arguments. it's really facinating. i cant debate the ins and outs of it because it's too hot a topic for anyone to be rational. all i'm saying is that the feminist movement, which was real, resulted in some unfair laws. all movements do. it's just the way it is.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:58 / 20.01.06
You seem to have missed the paragraph in my post about abuse statistics, ShadowSax. Also, I'm still not clear on whether or not you are claiming that the "mom" in "mom will illegally keep dad from kids" is all mothers involved in custody hearings, and whether you still insist that this is a fact.

As for those angry feminists, how about:

they got what they wanted. dads are trying to fight the remnants of that whole thing. you know, "all heterosexual sex is rape," that kind of stuff.

Do you stand by that as an accurate assessment of a) the feminist movements' motivations and goals, historically (note placement of apostrophe, there has been and still are more than one movement), and b) the extent to which feminism has 'won' its battles? The same goes for "the feminist movement which has cast women as victims in general" - but really, it's probably best if you do a search and find one of several previous threads on Barbelith about feminism.

if you're interested in real data, unfortunately you cant look at census bureau stats

Let's assume you're right and that the US Census Bureau has skewed their findings for the sake of their feminist agenda. Where could I find "real data"?

unless you've seen it in action, you're likely to slip into normal societal opinions about it.

I never said I hadn't seen it in action. I have. But I'm aware that my personal experience is just one story.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:01 / 20.01.06
This is just mind-bending:

offical data doesnt count child support payments as income or expenses. so dads who pay child support, as far as the IRS, the census and the normal govt stats are concerned, actually have that money as income.

Yeah? So? It's an expense. I spend nearly $5000 a year on groceries, and the IRS counts that $5000 as income. Now, that $5000 is mandatory—I can't choose to not buy food.

By the same token, my kids eat the groceries and wear the clothes that I buy with my money, but according to the government they have an income of zero.

Now, would you argue that my buying food and clothes for my kids is a redistribution of wealth, and that those expenses should be deducted from my income for tax purposes?

Of course not, because that would be retarded. Those are necessary expenses for the upbringing of my kids. and that's how money works, Sunshine: it comes in as income, and it goes out as expenses.

Try another one.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:04 / 20.01.06
And this...

i cant argue with feminists, sorry. i know all the arguments.

And yet you have no effective counter-arguments. Might this not be taken as, perhaps, a clue that your position is really not all that strong to begin with?
 
 
ShadowSax
13:11 / 20.01.06
this is the wrong place. i seriously apologize. these easy and quick comments are precisely the uphill battle dads face. the bottom line is that dads want to go into court and have the same right to their children that moms have. they dont. i didnt realize that i needed to be briefed of barbelith's view of feminism before i could mention the word.

at any rate, i'm glad to have gotten into the mix with such a hot topic. i'm used to being ripped apart. i'm pro life, pro gay marriage, anti war, pro fathers rights, pro monkeys and very anti other people. so i'm bound to ruffle feathers. i'm glad i stayed away from saying "chicks" tho. at least i have that going for me.
 
 
w1rebaby
13:13 / 20.01.06
You see, this is a perfect example of the problem I have with the "fathers rights movement". I read through things and nod and agree with quite a bit of it - my father had custody of me, I recall a lot of legal problems, and do think that there are problems with the law as it stands. Then I get to something like

remember one other thing - the only reason that fathers are in this situation is because of a massive and often angry, disruptive feminist movement. they got what they wanted. dads are trying to fight the remnants of that whole thing. you know, "all heterosexual sex is rape," that kind of stuff.

and I just think "cobblers". Because it is. It's either just delusional ("look! the all powerful feminazi conspiracy! they own the banks too!") or actively malign if not (yes, if women didn't have the legal rights they do today, fathers probably would have an easier time in courts, buuuut...).

I frequently find that organisations like F4J have far too much tolerance for anti-feminist bullshit and that means I have no wish to associate myself with them. It's like a group about freeing Palestine that lets neo-Nazis in. There are very good points about the feminisation of anything to do with children in this society and the reinforcement of traditional gender roles - which no feminist I've ever met is in favour of - but I'm not going to associate myself with misogynists, sorry.
 
 
w1rebaby
13:15 / 20.01.06
Annoyingly there've been a whole load more posts in-between while I was typing that and getting distracted by a co-worker but anyway. Yeah.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:17 / 20.01.06
i'm not sure however how focusing on an offtopic argument i was using as a quick example deflates the arguments i was making about the custody situation specifically.

Well, I think it was a handy way to suggest that your red-mist hate-on for women might just be affecting your ability to, for example, believe statistics about pay disparity, as they might your ability to understand statistics relating to the allocation of custody. Since you refuse to accept the validity of any statistical information that does not support your beliefs as the deceitful work of:

a) Feminists
and
b) Evil governments, ideologically dominated in some obscure way by feminists

you are quite correct that you are not able to argue with feminists, or indeed with anyone else who values some connection to objective reality in their interlocutors.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:19 / 20.01.06
these easy and quick comments are precisely the uphill battle dads face.

Sorry, whose quick and easy comments?

i didnt realize that i needed to be briefed of barbelith's view of feminism before i could mention the word.

Barbelith is not a person or a monolith, it doesn't have one view of feminism. You don't need to be briefed on the views of feminism on the board - just any view of feminism other than your own. But if you want to take part in discussions on the board, previous discussions might be of interest and/or informative, might they not?
 
 
ShadowSax
13:20 / 20.01.06
ha ah. i'm so not a misogynist. but not the point. i like speaking in general terms. riles em up.

funny about the palestinian thing via nazi supporters. what is the argument against "FREEING" palestinians. funny how quick it is to fall in line with the normal opinion and move away from the uncertain side because of some shady characters. nevermind that we're talking about apartheid in israel against the palestinians, that zionists also call for mass murder based on race.

lots of slippery slopes here.

besides, so what if i WAS a misogynist! does that mean i shouldnt be allowed to raise my kids? married people with unpopular views get to raise kids all the time. why should a divorce result in the state determining who gets to raise the kids? hm?

wait. i begged out already. sorry.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:27 / 20.01.06
so what if i WAS a misogynist! does that mean i shouldnt be allowed to raise my kids?

IMO, yes.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:32 / 20.01.06
so what if i WAS a misogynist! does that mean i shouldnt be allowed to raise my kids?

Not relevant. However, it does mean that your pronouncements on women and feminists and feminism would be profoundly biased, skewed and untenable.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:38 / 20.01.06
funny about the palestinian thing via nazi supporters. what is the argument against "FREEING" palestinians. funny how quick it is to fall in line with the normal opinion and move away from the uncertain side because of some shady characters. nevermind that we're talking about apartheid in israel against the palestinians, that zionists also call for mass murder based on race.

lots of slippery slopes here.


Don't tell me... "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a historical document, and anyone who says otherwise is a dirty feminist?

If all you hope for in life is to "rile" some unspecified "them" (women? Mothers? Feminists? Does your tiny fevered brain admit a difference between the three?), ShadowSax, then I wish you luck in achieving your limited objectives. However, we hope for better. Try addressing any one of the many points and documents raised by other contributors to this thread was a slightly broader sweep.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:39 / 20.01.06
i'm used to being ripped apart. i'm pro life, pro gay marriage, anti war, pro fathers rights, pro monkeys and very anti other people. so i'm bound to ruffle feathers.

[cheapshot] But have you ever seen a real, live tiger? [/cheapshot]

Seriously: Bringing up your right-on views in other areas does not bolster your argument on this particular topic. Nor does your self-serving "I'm so controversial, me" chest-puffery.

You can't get a slamdunk by moving the basket.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:40 / 20.01.06
ha ah. i'm so not a misogynist. but not the point. i like speaking in general terms. riles em up.

Riles who up? Oh, wait, sorry, you've "bailed out". You don't feel like substantiating or defending any of the supposedly strongly-held opinions and FACTS you posted earlier. Instead, you prefer to emulate the following moment in The Simpsons:


Nelson: Well.. you're gay!
Lisa: People who call other people gay are often covering up their own homosexualities.
(Nelson panics and open the emergency exit at the back of the school bus. He bounces off the tarmac, rolls and then gets back up)
Nelson: BULLIES RULE!
 
  

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