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Fathers For Justice dress up as Captain America, Batman. Then Get Arrested. [PICS]

 
  

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redtara
00:14 / 28.09.06
Wow, do I need to get me some proper advice... but thanks 'Sis, fore warned is fore armed.

The status quo before any application is one of those factors, so a married Mother who is the child's primary carer before relationship breakdown is in a better position to that extent

I take it then that if a father has never been involved in the care or support of a child, has never shared a residence or shown anything, but the most superficial of interests in the child, he is unlikely to get access 'cos he wakes up one day and decides he wants to be a dad?

As for parental alienation, it's not a legal concept so there is no legal formulation

There have been other notions that were not legal concepts that somehow managed to get legal formulation when the political climate deemed it necessary. I'm thinking of some of the insightment law within the recent anti-terrorism legislation. The whole asbo legal house of cards seems to fit the bill too.

Is it inconceivable that under the right set of moral panics PAS might get taken seriously here (in the UK)?
 
 
redtara
00:18 / 28.09.06
Since December 2003, unmarried Fathers now have PR automatically if they are named on the child's birth certificate.

Am I right in thinking that PR stands for Parental Responsibility and not Parental Rights? Does anyone have any idea of what the subtle yet important distinction between the two is if this is the case.

(Sorry for double post)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:48 / 28.09.06
Again, I'm afraid I'm no expert, but Parental Responsibility is a term in law, which acknowledges a person as having the status of parent (or equivalent) in law. Parental responsibility confers rights (the right to consent to medical treatment on your child's behalf) and responsibilities, relating to the status of parent.

Parental rights is not to my knowledge a term in law, but is often used to describe the rights pertaining to being a parent - so, paternity or maternity leave, child support, that sort of thing. Then we get onto "fathers' rights", which brings us back to the start of this discussion, which broadly describes the platform advanced by a group of fathers who are protesting about inequalities they feel have unfairly affected their access to their children.
 
 
Janean Patience
10:26 / 05.10.06
So what access should a father who has been physically abusive to the mother have to his children? None?

I'm not trying to be provocative. Fathers 4 Justice hoped to raise the issue of fathers being denied access to their children. They probably hoped to avoid the question of why these particular fathers are denied access to their children. F4J have taken heavy, and justified, criticism on this thread. I've met them myself, and many were ex-forces; all seemed to have a propensity to quickly resort to violent solutions to their various problems. The correct association wouldn't have been with superheroes but supervillains: these were men who, given the skill to build a sonic disruptor, would have held the city hostage to achieve their aims rather than filing a patent.

They did want access to their kids, though. That was the motivation, and again from personal experience I'd say it wasn't just an attempt to get back at an ex-partner. Is there any way that can be arranged, when the father bears a heavy grudge against an ex and (invariably) especially her new partner? Does the fact, proven or unproven in law, of past abuse necessarily mean they shouldn't be allowed any access, or just for practical reasons?

What about the kids? Children tend to love their parents and want to see them, no matter what they've done wrong. If we assume that the children weren't direct victims of abuse, do they have the right to see their fathers? Will they be better off, in any sense, not seeing them?

I know this has been a hornet's nest of a thread. These are questions that niggled at me because they remained unconsidered.
 
 
Supersister
20:32 / 08.10.06
Supervised contact in a specially designated 'contact centre' is usually the solution in that situation. However, many abusive parents resent this level of intrusion and, in addition, the service usually has to be paid for if it's to provide a solution in the long term and they are often reluctant to pay, although sometimes social services will get involved and foot the bill. It's generally recognised that some form of contact even with a severely abusive parent is very important for a child, especially where there is a pre-existing bond and so long as it can take place safely, but unfortunately this is not usually what the parent is seeking. To give a common example, in a male on female domestic violence situation, the Father is frequently seeking to continue the abuse by imposing himself on the Mother and remaining involved in her life. Once this element is removed by offer of contact in a neutral venue without the need for the parents to meet, sadly, more often than not, he will lose interest.

I take it then that if a father has never been involved in the care or support of a child, has never shared a residence or shown anything, but the most superficial of interests in the child, he is unlikely to get access 'cos he wakes up one day and decides he wants to be a dad?

Not necessarily. It depends very much on the circumstances including the child's wishes and their age, but in that situation usually the court would assess the Father's commitment and then appoint a social work trained court reporter to monitor an introduction and gradual increase in contact. After a suitable period of time, providing he was reliable and committed, they would in my experience order Parental Responsibility. It's not unheard of, usually because of the impact of a positive new relationship or birth of a further child. Unless there has been some formal severance of parental rights, eg. in the case of adoption or sperm donation, it is usually considered to be in the child's interests to have the opportunity to know both biological parents.
 
 
redtara
21:46 / 08.10.06
Cheers Supersister, again. And Haus as well. Was too tail-spinny to thank you for taking the time to reply before.

Well, my daughter reported seeing the Fathers for Justice guys on a monument in Liverpool town center on her way home today. I will post the details of the matter tomorrow when I have spoken to the femenist stasi (femenasi) I use to keep tabs on the remnants of that unfortunate organisation.
 
 
redtara
21:22 / 11.10.06
Not much fuss generated by demo although their banner remains at the top of our 'Nelson's column'. Couldn't read it as I flashed past in a taxi on way to the dental hospital A&E yesterday.

So what access should a father who has been physically abusive to the mother have to his children? None?

I think access should be dependant on a course of anger management and should most certainly be supervised in the first instance even if just to allay concerns of mothers. Failing that I don't think it is unreasonable for abusive partners of any gender to loose access.

To give a common example, in a male on female domestic violence situation, the Father is frequently seeking to continue the abuse by imposing himself on the Mother and remaining involved in her life. Once this element is removed by offer of contact in a neutral venue without the need for the parents to meet, sadly, more often than not, he will lose interest.

To be honest this rings true with experiences of friends of mine. Abuse is not about violence, but about control and until an abuser is encouraged to examine and develop that aspect of their personality why should they have access to their kids and by extention their partner.

What about the kids? Children tend to love their parents and want to see them, no matter what they've done wrong. If we assume that the children weren't direct victims of abuse, do they have the right to see their fathers? Will they be better off, in any sense, not seeing them?

With respect I don't think that this is even a little bit true. Again I only have anecdotal evidence. Over last Sunday lunch this idea came up in conversation. My aunt and the son of a neighbour in attendance both described how during the breakup of her relationship and his parents relationship the sibling children had different reactions. The older boy, better able to see what was happening and make judgements about appropriate behavior cut thier fathers loose not bothering to keep in touch right up until today. The younger brother in both instances was too young to be aware and had maintained a relationship.

I think as in all things you reap what you sow and if the relationship wasn't up to much before the breakup who is to say how a child might feel about the exit of a parent.
 
 
Supersister
09:24 / 12.10.06
What children feel and what is in their best interests may be very different things. I believe strongly that children have a right to maintain contact with both parents and, where practicable, other interested adults as well such as former social or step-parents, aunts, uncles, cousins and grandparents. I have been involved in cases where the Father has murdered the Mother and the child is still taken to prison a couple of times a year to see him. It helps them to make sense of their history. Where a child and parent are separated from one another altogether that parent can become a mythical figure and this can lead to painful identity problems in later life.
 
 
grant
14:33 / 14.11.06
Here's a bizarre news story that illustrates why getting courts involved in families can be troublesome, and why the system is, well, vexed:

A proposal from the Licking County Prosecutor's Office might put an end to an Upper Arlington man making child support payments to his ex-wife -- even though she died in April, and he has custody of their three children.

Joe Randolph, 44, has been instructed by Licking County Child Support Enforcement Agency officials that he must continue the payments until a court tells him he can stop. Thus, he has been paying more than $1,300 per month to nobody in particular.


and


...said Randolph's attorney, Jerry Swank. "I think it's just pure silliness. We have a court date in January. I hope it will be resolved before then."


More here.
 
 
Sax
07:06 / 15.11.06
(thread rot)

Licking County? Jerry Swank? You Americans are bonkers.

(end threadrot)
 
 
Elettaria
17:18 / 06.01.07
(continues threadrot)

There are some pretty barmy place names in the UK, such as Ogle or Lower Slaughter. I still get the giggles at "please send a reply to rabbi@maidenheadsynagogue" (Leatherhead is on the same train route, I believe), and the founder of the Edinburgh vet school was William Dick, who may well have been known as Willy.

(end threadrot)

My parents divorced in 1993 when I was 16, and my main reason for ceasing contact with my father was his unacceptable behaviour towards my mother, though one of the more minor reasons was the way he treated me as property during the divorce proceedings. My mother, responding partly to media pressure (there was lots of it at the time, waffling on about how children must have two parents), emotional blackmail from my father, and the excellent reason that she was forced to see her father (also a shit) when she was a teenager, nagged me on and off for years to resume contact, but I held firm. I've never regretted doing so for a moment, I've never sat around being troubled by the business, I don't have noticeable identity issues as a result (as I pointed out to my mother, she's the one with a record of dating older men, not me, and far from throwing a wobbly when my mother remarried, as everyone seem to expect, I was utterly delighted that she had found someone wonderful who adores her), and I only wish he'd got out of our lives earlier. My mother eventually ceased contact with him years later and was noticeably happier for it, and hopefully my family has stopped feeding him information about me without my consent (I was told years later that he had used to sneak into my school concerts without being seen, which I found really creepy). Plenty of children are far better off away from a bad parent.

Reading twelve pages of thread at once is beyond my powers, alas, but did anyone bring up the stats F4J use to support their claims? They're irritatingly misused - they do things like saying that because the majority of incidents of parental violence towards a child are committed by mothers, women are unfit to parent, when the obvious reason is that mothers are far more likely to be the parent who's around the child to begin with - but they did provide food for thought. I've always heard that the most common reason for marital breakdown is domestic violence, which is most often committed by men against women, and that a fairly high proportion of men who are violent towards their partners are also violent towards their children.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:24 / 07.01.07
Regrettably, the only answer to the question, really, is that various statistics are put forward during the thread, and refuted in various ways. There's a great one where it is proven that, in fact, women are far more domestically violent than men, because when you factor in the obvious truth that all men who are reported as dying of heart attacks are in fact poisoned by their wives, women kill far more spouses than men. It was a classic. In fact, this thread provides some really interesting examples of how people defend entrenched positions...
 
 
Elettaria
16:02 / 07.01.07
Good heavens. I skimmed through a few pages and noticed that the conversation was fairly, er, wide-ranging, but must have missed that particular gem. Do I actually want to read it? If not, could some kind person inform me who's poisoning the women who die of heart attacks?* Hey, I could sidetrack this into a rant about how heart medication isn't at all geared towards women, although they have different medical needs in that respect, because drug trials are done solely on men as far as possible! Or is that just not up to scratch as thread rot goes?

* My personal theory is that it's the lobsters. They're out to destroy us all!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:01 / 07.01.07
Discussed here.
 
 
Elettaria
18:36 / 07.01.07
Interesting. From that bit of the thread:

"The vast majority of accusations of child sexual abuse made during custody battles are false, unfounded or unsubstantiated."

That's probably true (if phrased in such a way that it implies that the answer is usually "false", which irks me), simply because substantiating any sort of sexual crime to the degree required by the courts is most often impossible (the incredibly low conviction rate for rape isn't just because the police don't behave quite as well as everyone would like), and it gets harder with children. A friend of mine split up from her bastard of an ex, with whom she had a four year old daughter. Not too long afterwards, the daughter told her that he had been abusing her (early stages, no touching yet, but still). Horrified, my friend sought to deny him access. The problem arose in proving the case: the child, who had also told some of her mother's friends, has to tell a figure of authority (teacher, social worker, police officer) of her own free will. You are allowed to set up meetings, I think, but you can't lead a four year old, and of course any child is highly unlikely to mention in a random conversation to one of the above figures that s/he is being abused. So access continues to be granted, though I believe she's managed to keep it at supervised access. She's ended up planning on moving to Canada in a few months; she should be able to manage it legally, her ex-husband, who is the father of her other child, lives there.

On the other hand, and going back to the idea of domestic violence accusations being "inflated", it would help if the courts didn't have such ludicrous requirements of proof. I knew someone who was kicked down a full flight of stairs by her abusive husband. The doctor took one look at her bruises and decided to photograph them. The lawyer looked at the photos and said that they wouldn't be any use as evidence, it wasn't considered bad enough. This was a while ago, but judging from my best friend, who's just started his first post-traineeship job as a family lawyer and is doing a lot of matrimonial law, it hasn't improved. He was telling me all about the huge numbers of devoted fathers who get unfounded allegations of abuse thrown at them during divorce proceedings. I'm sure it does happen sometimes, and I know that divorce is renowned for turning perfectly amicable people into scheming monsters, but I just hope he isn't being fed the same propaganda his police officer sister got when she was in the Family Protection Unit and was taught that the vast majority of rape accusations are false. It's a nightmare all round with such (largely) unprovable crimes, I just wish more people could tell the difference between "unsubstantiated" and "untrue".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:21 / 07.01.07
We touched on this as well. ShadowSax claimed that abuse was routinely falsified. I mentioned a report from New South Wales that suggested this not to be the case. He ignored it, no doubt on the grounds that it had been nobbled by feminists.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:54 / 08.06.08
Fathers 4 Justice are back, no new tricks, no new ideas, unless you count claiming that being denied access to their kids was 'the biggest abuse of our human rights since the Holocaust'. Even ignoring the fact that they probably didn't mean to imply that they actually went through the Holocaust themselves it's still a ridiculously stupid thing to say.
 
 
Dead Megatron
11:20 / 09.06.08
I didn't see where the holocaust reference was made(nor did I hear it in the video).
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:38 / 09.06.08
Sorry, I should have said that I copied that from an interview the ringleader did on News 24 by phone. I didn't watch the video on the site to see if it had that in it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:20 / 12.06.08
Ms Harman, who is also Secretary of State for Equalities and Minister for Women, said the men had not requested a meeting (Italics mine.)

Typical of F4J, really. If they demonstrated this kind of half-cocked idiocy--failing to even attempt dialogue, and instead skipping straight to the less difficult but crucially less useful showing off until I get what I want part--in the courtroom, it's no wonder they weren't granted custody.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:23 / 13.06.08
Spiderman did claim in the same News 24 that they had tried to see Harriet Harman but she refused, which possibly means they didn't make an appointment, barged in to her surgery etc etc so who knows where the truth lies, it's another of those "I wish both sides could lose" situations.
 
  

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