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Fathers For Justice dress up as Captain America, Batman. Then Get Arrested. [PICS]

 
  

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alas
13:24 / 10.02.06
i'll have to mull over exactly how to deal with the NOW bone you threw me. i wasnt going to bring them up, but since i didnt, i may have to really have a go at it.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean to say here, but I think, possibly incorrectly, that I'm hearing some smacking of the lips in this phrase--i.e., that you relish the opportunity of attacking NOW? (Seriously, I may be wrong, in which case some of this post may be unnecessary)

I have no problem discussing or explaining what I take to be NOW's stances on a variety of issues, and, given my expertise, particularly the historical roots of those stances. But I would just like to make clear that, first, I am not a NOW member and I do not mean to imply by any of the above that NOW somehow speaks for all feminists or sets an "agenda" (let alone "the" agenda...) for feminism. There is no feminism, per se, only feminisms. NOW's roots in white, middle-class, mainstream, liberal feminism limits its ability to work on certain issues very effectively (e.g., race, non-dominant sexualities, although it does now espouse those issues and presents itself as a critical ally in those causes for other groups), and, most critically for me, its history and "centrist" approach limits its questioning of capitalism and individualism as intertwined with patriarchal oppression.

I brought NOW up solely because you seemed to imply that no feminist cause had ever espoused the idea that the normative gender expectations for mothers and fathers is oppressive. I state as a point of fact that that idea (essentially) originated in feminist thought, and is basic to even the most centrist of feminist organizations.

I argue as a point of ethics that it would be helpful if you/the father's rights movement, by extension, could acknowledge that debt to feminism in this area--or indeed any area (tactics, philosophy, etc.). If you/they don't, it's really appropriation--and it feels like an appropriation with the specific intent to discredit. And such an action, to me, would warrant the charge of misogyny.

While I welcome discussing NOW's actions in this arena, I hope that your argument will be framed in such a way that acknowledges that I do not represent NOW personally, and that you will be careful to distinguish my stance from NOW's. I also hope your comments will take note of the fact that NOW does not speak for all feminists, and make a genuine effort to distinguish clearly when you are critiquing NOW's actions as opposed to all of feminist thought and political activity.
 
 
Supaglue
14:13 / 10.02.06
I think he means non-custodial, rather than indifferent.

I do. Another ambiguous post by me. Not gonna post until I'm a bit less busy...
 
 
ShadowSax
14:47 / 10.02.06
I do. Another ambiguous post by me. Not gonna post until I'm a bit less busy...

well then you're obviously coming at this from a very wrong point of view, if you consider non-custodial to be interchangeable with non-caring.

alas, yes, i relish the chance to counter an argument that uses NOW as a basis of support. i'm pretty sure they have a poor record of supporting true equality (rather supporting strictly one side of the argument, regardless of its merits).

all organizations have their issues, of course.
 
 
Supaglue
15:42 / 10.02.06
Again. My bad.

I meant caring in the sense of "Watchful oversight; charge or supervision"

Not in the sense of "being concerned of"
 
 
alas
21:34 / 10.02.06
i relish the chance to counter an argument that uses NOW as a basis of support. i'm pretty sure they have a poor record of supporting true equality (rather supporting strictly one side of the argument, regardless of its merits).

I hope you did read the rest of my most recent post, then, and that you made careful note of the precise reasons and degree to which I used NOW in my argument, as well as the degree to which I afiliate myself with NOW. I trust that you will refrain from making NOW's actions a convenient strawman for all of my argument, or for all of feminism, because that would not be a legitimate argumentative move, as I have explained.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:07 / 10.02.06
i'm pretty sure they have a poor record of supporting true equality (rather supporting strictly one side of the argument, regardless of its merits).

In this case, precisely the same side of the argument that you are making - that it is unfair and inadvisable to prioritise nurturing in the female parent or earning in the male.
 
 
ShadowSax
00:29 / 11.02.06
settle.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:50 / 11.02.06
Carlisle. Now get back to the facts.
 
 
ShadowSax
18:46 / 13.02.06
So I put to you AS A FACT that modern feminism did not create the system whereby women’s nurturing abilities were valued over men’s. Feminism did not create the system where males were given financial responsibility for families and women were denied jobs. What you are doing is blaming feminism for the very system that feminists have organized to dismantle for at least the last 40 years.

I'm not saying that feminism invented the idea, but that it created the current system.

The distinction I am making is that from the point that the tender years doctrine was dismissed as a reason for determining custody, the feminist movement has prevented society from moving away from those values by creating a system that sustains that bias. In the 1960s, the tender years doctrine began to be removed from laws. However, because of feminist politics, its outcome remains. So it can be said that feminism didnt create the current situation in that mothers were often given custody beginning in the late 19th century, but it can also be said that feminism revived this bias and legislated it into sustainability.

Here is how: in seeking to move control of finances from men to women (lets assume that the stated goal in this effort is to equalize society), family law has been set up to provide finances to women via the application of the same tender years doctrine that contributed to some of the inequality that led to feminism in the first place.

How? As I said in earlier posts, the way that child support from NCP to CP is set up favors the CP. The laws DONT assist CPs in getting their children off welfare lists. In fact, the laws promote welfare payments to single mothers already receiving child support.

Incentives created to force child support violators to pay up provide money to localities to not only collect money, but to enforce high-as-possible support levels.

And the legal application of status quo, restraining orders, child care, etc., have caused there to be a bias against men in the application of custody law.

Statistics show that there are more parents (CP, women) who interfere with "visitation" (40-75%) than there are parents (NCP, men) who fail to pay child support (10%), yet localities spend 340 times more money on support collection than they do on custody enforcement. The term "deadbeat dad" is much more wellknown than "interfering mom," even though the latter group is significantly larger than the former. This is a direct result the feminist bias and of politicians courting feminist groups.

In order to protect abused people, feminist politics has supported blanket laws that allow for quick legal acknowledgement of abuse (via restraining orders, etc) based on unsubstantiated claims of abuse. Feminist politics has also supported legislation that prevents a mother from notifying her spouse of an abortion without there even existing claims of abuse. HIPA law application means that fathers cant get information about an unborn child because the mother is the only legally recognized individual, even within minutes of actual birth. Feminist politics do NOT promote equality. They promote creating a favored class in legal actions, namely women, in regards to anything related to the traditional roles of mother/spouse/caregiver. The fact is, most divorces dont include claims of abuse, and for the ones that do, women's claims of abuse are nearly equal to those from men. Abuse isnt claimed unless there are custody issues.

I believe that most people who identify themselves as "feminists" do indeed support equality, but I dont think the actual laws lobbied for by the political machine that is feminism has generated equality, or even that it truly seeks it.

That fathers rights groups dont acknowledge their "borrowing" of feminist terminology seems a minor point. That fathers rights groups exist despite feminism's decades-old statements of equality is (to me) a telling point.

The degree of parenting that each spouse does in an intact marriage should have nothing to do with how each parent cares for the child or children after divorce. The family dynamic has necessarily changed, and it doesnt matter who did what prior, because now there are two households.

Lip service doesnt equal facts. Just as you can say that fathers rights groups have borrowed terminology from feminist organizations, we can both say that neither group actually behaves consistent with their mission statements. If we were going to confine our discussion to what different groups claim to be in favor of, it would be a pretty short discussion.

NOW doesnt fight for equality. It fights for the financial gain of women.

HOWEVER: by and large women have paid a huge financial price, and continue to pay a financial price, for making a commitment to be with children.

A recent PBS article noted that American women actually control 51.3% of the wealth in this country.

I believe I've demonstrated that that is a myth. The result of most custody fights gives mothers more money and MORE access to welfare services. Legal precedent values the mother's income even over paternal rights (men proved by DNA tests to not be fathers are still paying child support).

But, the fathers’ movement seems to have only increased male power in this one area as its singular goal. It is therefore not for justice but for male power. That's why the outside world matters so much. Can show me strong evidence to the contrary? There's my gauntlet.

That's incorrect. In fact, most fathers entering a custody fight will argue for equal custody, while most mothers argue for primary custody. Most fathers expressly want equal custody, most mothers want primary custody. This is considered one of the primary reasons that fathers have a hard time overcoming the bias in family courts, because their beginning negotiating position is right in the middle, not to one extreme side.

In regards to "child's best interests," that is no basis for a legal argument. That most custody decisions are based on vague concepts, such as "child's welfare," "best interests," etc., these remove the burden of having to make decisions on facts. This puts subjective power in the hands of the court, which has other agendas as well, such as funding its own survival, getting re-elected, continuing the business of support collection, etc. This is the argument for 50-50 custody. One of the most common arguments against presumptive joint custody is that it only works where there are no conflicts between parents. But, due to interfering with visitation rights, based on who initiates divorces, and a clear financial stake in maintaining primary custody, mothers are most often the ones creating the conflict which then makes the NCP-CP relationship strained, thus preventing presumptive equal custody. What fathers rights groups are fighting for is presumptive equal custody, they are fighting for a system where facts rule over subjective decisions subject to outside influences. Where most feminist-based laws give more power to women in family court in order to overcome a mythical disadvantage, what fathers rights groups want is presumed equality.
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:29 / 13.02.06
In fact, most fathers entering a custody fight will argue for equal custody, while most mothers argue for primary custody

I'm not saying that's your case, SS, but can it be because they can't be bothered with full-time parenting? I mean, where would then find the time to earn fortunes and spending it on women-chasing? Just wondering
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:01 / 13.02.06
Lip service doesnt equal facts.

Indeed not. As such, I'm wondering where you got your statistics from and what their qualia were.
 
 
ShadowSax
20:35 / 13.02.06
"I'm not saying that's your case, SS, but can it be because they can't be bothered with full-time parenting? I mean, where would then find the time to earn fortunes and spending it on women-chasing? Just wondering

i'll let the feminists here attack your statement as grossly sexist instead of doing it myself. i mean, in the name of equality.

haus, the facts i refer to are posted at various places throughout the thread.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:38 / 13.02.06
It's a question, though. If demanding full custody is the best way to get what you want, why don't fathers walk in and do that? That, logically, would then lead to 50-50 custody, by the logic you're applying, SS.

Elsewhere, I asked not where your statistics were, but where they were from, thus:

I'm wondering where you got your statistics from and what their qualia were.

Or do you mean that you are still relying on those two articles you linked to a couple of pages back where you do not give attribution here?

On sources: a quick look at the front page of the Canadian Children's Rights Council seems to show that they have a strange and some would say rather morbid fascination with women sexually abusing children. Do you have extensive dealings with this group, in order to verify their objectivity? Do you have any idea what NOW actually said on this issue, or indeed which other feminist organizations protested and on what grounds? Do you, in short, have anything to go on other than a few angry paragraphs from somebody who appears not to have a whole shedload of journalistic or jurisprudential experience?

The treatment of sources is something I think we keep coming back to. For example, the PBS article has in the sentence directly above the one you pull the 51.3% statistic the statement:

While men as a group may earn more money

That is, the money women "control" is not necessarily theirs. It may, for example, be housekeeping - money given to them to maintain the house as a sort of unpaid bailiff. This statistic therefore seems to do little to refute alas' point - it sort of passes alongside it, is all.

Generally, I find your response a bit thin both on substantiation - most of your statistics are either unattributed, misleading or taken from the websites of people who are pretty clearly massaging the numbers to satisfy what seems in many cases to be a very focussed agenda - and on response to specific points. This is where your apparent reluctance to deal with alas' statistics on domestic abuse is rather telling. You're picking out bits and missing the rest both of your interlocutors here and of your own sources.
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:11 / 13.02.06
i'll let the feminists here attack your statement as grossly sexist instead of doing it myself. i mean, in the name of equality.

I never said I agree with them, dude. AND, you're avoiding my point: do divorcing dads find full-time custody to much of a pain in the ass???
 
 
ShadowSax
00:43 / 14.02.06
egatron, to answer your question, i would say that some mothers and some fathers can find themselves overwhelmed when taking care of their children.

haus, whats the problem? if you simply disagree with me on the significance of abuse, i'm not sure how to reconcile that. you claim my statistics are "massaged," i claim other statistics are presented just as misleadingly. if you're attributing all inequality in family court to the difference between male and female abuse cases, then we have nothing to discuss, you and i. you simply dont believe me and i simply dont believe you.

for myself, i've seen this stuff first hand. if you decide based on the words i've chosen or the opinions i have that what i present is false, then, there you go. we seem to be at an impasse, you and i.

in regards to how men go into custody fights, i think that what men are looking for is an equitable solution. i know for a fact that thats what i've seen. what have you seen? you can make assumptions about things you have no firsthand experience about, and you can decide that i'm lying. either way, it doesnt change the truth of the situation. your understanding of the facts doesnt determine those facts. if your position is that men fight for equal custody because they really dont want it, then my position would be that women fight for primary custody because they want the money from child support.

you've presented no facts or really any opinions, just simply playing some kind of one-sided devil's advocate. you can ignore the facts or decide that any and all sources noted by someone you dont like are erroneous. i would say that many feminist groups have a scary fixation on men abusing children. when 8 yr old kids are arrested for abuse after grabbing a girl's skirt on the playground, something is wrong with our laws, even well-intentioned laws can have adverse affects. when a man proven by DNA to not be a child's father is still ordered to continue child support payments, something is wrong with the laws. i think you have a scary fixation on picking out details of facts you dont like or you feel are too close on a page to facts that are less than believable, while ignoring meaningful facts and not addressing them.

i'm sure you could say the same about me.

so, theres the impasse. it's been GREAT talking with you about this.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:51 / 14.02.06
when 8 yr old kids are arrested for abuse after grabbing a girl's skirt on the playground, something is wrong with our laws, even well-intentioned laws can have adverse affects.

Oh, is that feminists as well? Cool.

I don't have the time for this right now. Suffice it to say that you keep claiming direct experience as a justification for statistics which you clearly could not have experienced directly - unless you, personally, have managed to divorce every feminist in the United States and now Canada, you're relying on unattested statistics, selective reading and wild conjecture. I suspect your direct experience may feature same, but the two are not identical.
 
 
Dead Megatron
09:42 / 14.02.06
egatron, to answer your question, i would say that some mothers and some fathers can find themselves overwhelmed when taking care of their children.

Yeah, but why more fathers than mothers? Any thoughts on that?

One-sided devil's advocate? Is there any other kind?

And do you have a link to this 8-year old being arrested for abuse story? It's so ludricous, I'd like to take a look. You know, for laughs.

Incidentally, egatron?
 
 
ShadowSax
12:44 / 14.02.06
6-yr-old suspended 3 days for sexual harassment.

Other examples of youngsters subjected to laws providing no exemptions.

Consider this analogy: Pro-choice advocates fight against late-term abortion laws that dont provide enough exceptions for the health of the mother, yet lobbyists from overlapping feminist/left-wing groups argue for sexual harassment laws that use "zero tolerance", no exceptions, including no exceptions for children who arent really using sex or gender as a weapon.

Man is now a sex offender for grabbing the arm of a girl who walked in front of his car.

About the 8-yr-=old arrested, it was a child in NJ who was placed on the sex offender's list for lifting a girl's skirt. I cant find the article right now; it was at least a year ago.

Yeah, but why more fathers than mothers? Any thoughts on that?

i didnt say more fathers than mothers. megatron, you implied that, not me. i already explained the reason for the gap.

pay attention, people.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:12 / 14.02.06
lobbyists from overlapping feminist/left-wing groups

Please to name these? Interesting that you've shifted from feminists to feminists and left wingers, btw. Could you explain how that happened kthxbai?
 
 
ShadowSax
13:33 / 14.02.06
feminist groups whose interests overlap those of some left wing groups.

you seem more concerned with very specifically who to blame than with the problems with the system. i suggest moving away from trying to assign personal blame and looking at trends and specific laws. if you're trying to find, in my arguments, some breed of devil human, you're not going to be satisfied.

so instead of who to blame, what do you think about the zero tolerance-type laws that are mentioned?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:43 / 14.02.06
I think they're not ontopic. However, your fixation on "feminists" as the wellspring of American law is ontopic, as you are using it as the basis for your belief that the laws on child custody are unjust.

Therefore, I ask again. The only time you have identified an actual group with an actual policy advanced by that group has been by reference to a badly-written article, which makes no actual substantiation of its claims. As such, I am asking you to demonstrate whether you have any factual basis for your ascription of views to "feminists". So far, you're batting zero.
 
 
ShadowSax
13:59 / 14.02.06
feminists support:

1. laws regarding acquiring restraining orders with no factual evidence.

2. custody decisions based on restraining orders that have no factual evidence.

3. child support laws that value male finances over male nurturing.

4. child support laws that value female nurturing over female finances.

5. child support laws and enforcement valued 350 times more highly than laws and enforcement of custody.

i'm not referring to one or two articles. you do have to do some reading and refer to written journals not available online for some of this information. your insistence that i'm referring to two badly written articles doesnt make it true.

again, if you're dissatisfied with my statements, then fine. the discussion between you and i is over.
 
 
ShadowSax
14:03 / 14.02.06
and just for kicks, pretend that feminist groups werent in support of those laws that i just mentioned.

lets talk specifically about how to get rid of those laws or make them more fair.

then, go to NOW and see where it falls on changing those laws.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:15 / 14.02.06
So, if somebody does not accept your unsubstantiated claims, you are unable to continue to speak with them? This is, with respect, the sort of mumbling inarticulacy that I have decided without substantiation has made the men's rights movement a laughing stock.
 
 
ShadowSax
14:30 / 14.02.06
a father fighting for his right to see his children is a laughingstock, then?

obviously fathers rights groups still have a lot of work to do to get their message heard, that they want to be considered equal parents.

that you consider who to blame is more important (and more ontopic) than the facts of biased laws raises concerns about what you think of men in general, or at least fathers in general.
 
 
illmatic
15:40 / 14.02.06
that you consider who to blame is more important ... than the facts of biased laws

But who's blaming who here? You are making a series of unsubstaniated allegations against a very broad set of movements, and stating categorically they are all the same. Looks pretty much like "blame" to me.

If you were able to specifc your complaints, and accept that all feminsts aren't part of the same evil cabal, you'd might even feel have some chance of making common cause with them, building bridges and open dialgoue, which is the only way you'll achieve anything. Continue to see a huge range of movements as *them* - the enemy - is, I think, doing your cause a diservice.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:21 / 14.02.06
ShadowSax a father fighting for his right to see his children is a laughingstock, then?

I'll help you out here, because I'm nice like that. Let's reread Haus's previous statement again, with my magic emphasis button.

Haus So, if somebody does not accept your unsubstantiated claims, you are unable to continue to speak with them? This is, with respect, the sort of mumbling inarticulacy that I have decided without substantiation has made the men's rights movement a laughing stock.

Now, think about what Haus has been complaining about your debating technique in your last few exchanges. Then reread his response again... There you go, are you getting it now?
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:48 / 14.02.06
Considering SS thought I was supporting fathers who rather go "women-chasing" instead of fighting for full custody a little up there, it is possible he does not grasp the concept of sarcasm...
 
 
ShadowSax
19:10 / 14.02.06
i cant keep itemizing responses. your responses arent making sense. i never said women were an evil cabal, or even that feminists are an evil cabal. first impressions matter most, and obviously a few of you havent gotten over first impressions and arent reading into the argument on the whole. if you dont like my debating technique, oh well.

if you have something specific to say about something i specifically said, then feel free. otherwise, carry on with your inane ganging up. i know it's easier to address someone's debating technique than the issues at hand. but it's also very very boring, at least for me. i'm bored. you have no counter arguments. your posts have devolved into something very silly and very boring.
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:22 / 14.02.06
I have something specifi to ask. Up there you said:

In fact, most fathers entering a custody fight will argue for equal custody, while most mothers argue for primary custody

Then i made a comment (in a sarcastic tone, I admit) that they might do so because they might find full custody "too harassing", and then asked your opinion of why is that. Instead of answering, you dodged the issue by saying:

egatron, to answer your question, i would say that some mothers and some fathers can find themselves overwhelmed when taking care of their children.

which does not answer my question of why fathers do it more then mothers (Haus had some comment too, which I will not repeat). So, i ask again why more fathers then mother find themselves overhelmed when taking care of their children... No sarcasm this time...

So
 
 
ShadowSax
19:29 / 14.02.06
i answered your question that way because you have no basis for making that statement. on what basis are you saying that more fathers are overwhelmed than mothers?

if you're saying that because more fathers file for equal custody than mothers, who more often file for primary custody, my answer is this: fathers value female nurturing over female finances in the same way that mothers do, because of societal norms. so fathers are more likely to want the children to spend quality time with mothers than the reverse.

still, fathers go in wanting equal and get less. mothers go in wanting primary and get primary. so it's not simply negotiating tactics, if it were, then fathers would have more equal custody.

i hope this answers your question. i'm seriously not trying to dodge it. if i'm not being clear, please let me know.
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:36 / 14.02.06
It does answer my question, thank you.
 
 
illmatic
19:47 / 14.02.06
Okay, upthread I asked you what you thought of feminism, to which you didn't respond to to my satisfaction, seeing the way I phrased it as leading. I didn't intend it that way as I geninely feel that a lot of the actions which have taken place under the feminist banner are very postive - for both sexes. You obviously don't feel the same, so I'm asking can you not see a lot of the acheivements of the feminst movements, outwith the specifics of this debate, as positive things? To be specific, I mean campaigns for reproductive rights, equal pay, to increase maternity leave, to end sexual violence and so forth, as well as the general princple of equality.

To me, you still seem to still see feminism as a totality, to be disagreed with wholesale. Apologies if this is misreading you. This would be my main bone of contention with what you have said.

I say all this because I feel that you're in a stronger position when you can make common ground across causes rather than having an enemy which you "other". If you can engage with feminist such as Alas without being dismissive of the movement wholesale I think you'd stand much more chance of convincing people of your position. I also feel that your current point of view is leading you to over-estimate the power and influence of feminism as a movement. For the record I'm not "ganging up" with anyone, though I have a lot of sympathy for points Alas has expressed.
 
 
ShadowSax
19:52 / 14.02.06
I'm asking can you not see a lot of the acheivements of the feminst movements, outwith the specifics of this debate, as positive things? To be specific, I mean campaigns for reproductive rights, equal pay, to increase maternity leave, to end sexual violence and so forth, as well as the general princple of equality.

i do see a lot of positive achievements from feminism, yes.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:14 / 14.02.06
.i know it's easier to address someone's debating technique than the issues at hand.

You're really not getting it, are you? This isn't about "debating technique" - in fact, that, along with "rhetoric" earlier, are the classic techniques of those who believe that being smarter than them is somehow cheating. It's about you making things up. Lying, if you will. Throwing out unsubstantiated "facts" whcih you claim to be justified through some weird, transcendental quality of "direct experience". Making it harder for adults to have productive discussions.

You're just like my ex-husband.
 
  

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