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Sell Out?!!!

 
  

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ZF!
07:39 / 04.10.05
"a betrayal"

Copey, why did you start this thread if you could've just looked up a definition in the dictionary?

lovely um... er... fish you have there Mr Z.....

It's not a fish it's a lemur, you just don't realise it's an Aye-Aye.

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:47 / 04.10.05
Well, you might want to start with the blues, in which "creation" revolves neither necessarily around the writing of music or lyrics. Jazz has already been mentioned as an area in which the writer of the music is not the arbiter of how a piece sounds, and aso an area in which creation is a more collaborative process than your model allows. Performances of classical music might have a number of loci of "creation" - the writer of the piece, most obviously, but also the conductor, the soloist and so on. You say that you believe that everyone has a need to create, but appear unable to get your head around the idea that creation can inhere in something other than writing a song and then performing the song what you wrote. A top-class classical musician may have no desire to create, in the sense of write a song and then perform it, but may instead feel that their urge to create is satisfied by creating new artefacts, those artefacts being performances or recordings.

Those are a few examples off the top of my head.
 
 
Are Being Stolen By Bandits
09:42 / 04.10.05
As far as specific recordings go, you could do a lot worse than checking out either Miles Davis or John Coltrane - listen to Davis' Kind Of Blue, and remind yourself while doing so that the backing musicians are essentially laying down a rigidly-defined framework over which the soloist can "do his thing". If you can subsequently dismiss their work as some kind of sell-out, or uncreative, then...well, you may want to invest in a new pair of ears, because the ones you have would appear not to be working correctly.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:55 / 04.10.05
Alas, I'm in for the ignore button I suspect, but I fear it's what is (or isn't) between said ears that appears to have some, er, functional issues.
 
 
ZF!
10:40 / 04.10.05
Those are a few examples off the top of my head.

I'll certainly read into them a bit more.
Z
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:46 / 04.10.05
The notion of creation also leads into some stranger areas- for example, a Christian would by that definition consider John The Divine a sellout in writing terms because the Book of Revelation (There's no "s", it's "The Book Of Revelation/As revealed to St John The Divine") was pretty much given to him, whereas an atheist would consider him a "proper" writer. And that seems... kind of ass-backwards, really.

Spare's automatic drawings and a lot of Crowley's stuff fit in here as well. By this definition, they're either liars or sellouts. No room for being "good" creators in there.
 
 
haus of fraser
11:03 / 04.10.05
Copey, why did you start this thread if you could've just looked up a definition in the dictionary?

Cos I hate the term- it always gets bandied around in threads and really doesn't mean a great deal IMHO- by fleshing out the ideas behind the term- i guess i hoped that i could stop people from using it- or at least think about why they use it- rather than an easy get out- I hate that cos its corporate/ sell out IMHO is largely a bullshit argument....

Boycott a band for political reasons - i'm remembering Queen playing Sun City in the apartheid days, or for taking sponsorship from companies with nasty overtones- Justin T / Destinys child with McDonalds etc. Even say i just dosn't like the songs they play/ the way they look - i prefer another style of music etc- at least its honest.

But to criticize the way someone plays music is bullshit IMHO and stinks of snobbery, superiority and naivety. I think you know your argument stinks zenfroglet- but your too proud to backtrack and say 'i'm wrong'- or even 'you have a point' it seemed like we were getting somewhere and you started to realise that your arguments were flawed but then as soon as we pointed it out you backtrack...

ho hum...
 
 
ZF!
11:07 / 04.10.05
And that seems... kind of ass-backwards, really

Why? Why should things have absolute definitions for everyone?

Spare's automatic drawings and a lot of Crowley's stuff fit in here as well. By this definition, they're either liars or sellouts. No room for being "good" creators in there.

I'm not sure I follow, don't know this work, but Spare's automatic drawings, the idea seems to be to create sub-conscious art. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) And this certainly isn't false (to me) more like spontaneous.
Z
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:17 / 04.10.05
(Oh, by the way, in response to your earlier question, yes you can call me Stoatie).

Hmm... dashed that one off rather quickly- I'll elaborate after I've had some food and a bit of a sleep.
 
 
Ganesh
11:45 / 04.10.05
But to criticize the way someone plays music

To say nothing of criticising what they're thinking at the time they're playing music. But we're back to the "I can call my cat a fish if I want to" thing. Given that, on a message board, discussion is attempted through a common language (in this case English), it'd be useful if, in future discussions, Zenfroglet could alert us to other terms whose commonly-accepted meanings he decides to change, in the privacy of his own head.
 
 
Are Being Stolen By Bandits
13:18 / 04.10.05
Zenfroglet - I'd suggest that, if you have to stretch the definition of a term beyond breaking-point in order to even attempt to justify your use of it, there's probably something wrong with your argument. Just a thought.
 
 
Ganesh
16:07 / 04.10.05
(Off-topic: I just misread previous poster's name as Arse Being Stolen By Bandits. All very Millaresque...)
 
 
ZF!
18:32 / 04.10.05
But to criticize the way someone plays music is bullshit IMHO and stinks of snobbery, superiority and naivety. I think you know your argument stinks zenfroglet- but your too proud to backtrack and say 'i'm wrong'- or even 'you have a point' it seemed like we were getting somewhere and you started to realise that your arguments were flawed but then as soon as we pointed it out you backtrack...

I don't think my arguments stink at all. I didn't backtrack, I thought, if I clarified my stance, then it would solve most of the issues people have, which on the most part seemed about definitions (people going on with various scenarios).

I can take a point that I may not know enough about the process of the creation of music, to just apply my criteria to everything. Obviously I can accept my view of music is limited. I mean who can honestly say their view isn't limited. There's always something you don't know.

What I'm saying is that right now, what I know about music and it's creation, this is how I draw the lines.
I'm not proud, I just think for my purposes, I'm right. I don't think I'm trying to be superior or snobby, probably am being naive though. I have ideas about music, I feel people should aspire to the same. Maybe there are better ideas out there somewhere, I haven't heard them yet.

The general consensus here (for the moment) it seems is that we shouldn't use the term "sellout". The term is meaningless. It's derogatory, all musicians are creators, it's not fair to impose lofty ideals on people who don't know jack about them? Music just is.

Why? Perhaps you can tell me.

Give me an antithesis, Instead of telling me the exceptions to my "rules". Fine if you've said it before, indulge me.

"There is no such thing as a sellout because..."

Z
 
 
ZF!
18:48 / 04.10.05
Zenfroglet - I'd suggest that, if you have to stretch the definition of a term beyond breaking-point in order to even attempt to justify your use of it, there's probably something wrong with your argument. Just a thought.

it'd be useful if, in future discussions, Zenfroglet could alert us to other terms whose commonly-accepted meanings he decides to change, in the privacy of his own head.


Mm, so you're saying a term that is subject to so much scrutiny and debate cannot have any other definition than that in a dictionary? Nearly all my postings have been about what this term means to me. Now you tell me I've just had the wrong definition?

Why, this is obviously right, this entire debate is concluded for me.

Thank you

Z.
 
 
Ganesh
19:08 / 04.10.05
No, I'm telling you your definition's essentially shit because it lacks any sort of meaning or application beyond the confines of your own head. Shit for discussing with other human beings, anyway.
 
 
Jack Fear
22:20 / 04.10.05
right now, what I know about music and it's creation, this is how I draw the lines.

Let me say in no uncertain terms: You need to learn more about music and its creation.
 
 
ZF!
11:36 / 05.10.05
No, I'm telling you your definition's essentially shit because it lacks any sort of meaning or application beyond the confines of your own head. Shit for discussing with other human beings, anyway.

Haha, well I have been trying to explain that but nobody minded until now.

Z.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:27 / 05.10.05
DIE THREAD!!

DIE!!
 
 
Ganesh
13:37 / 05.10.05
Haha, well I have been trying to explain that but nobody minded until now.

No need to explain. Just don't bother talking about it in the first place - unless you plan to use, y'know, language.
 
 
ZF!
14:02 / 05.10.05
For you Ganesh, anything.

Z
 
 
_Boboss
09:10 / 06.10.05
Sorry Money$, this thread must LIVE! it's doing quite a good job of containing zenfroglet - potentially the most dangerous threat the board has ever had to face – if he starts spreading his personal idiocy into other fora we could all be in for a world of hurt. Imagine in the comics threads – ‘you guys are talking about spider-man as if he’s some fictional tight-wearing do-gooder. What I mean by spider-man is a guy who’s got a phd in arachnology and lots of tarantulas and stuff in glass boxes in his living room. And nothing any of you say will ever make me change my mind’.
 
 
haus of fraser
10:38 / 06.10.05
Just curious Zenfroglet.... Where do you stand on Dance music?
 
 
ZF!
11:48 / 06.10.05
It's allright.

Z
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:54 / 06.10.05
(Oh FFS! If it must continue, then...)

...Particularly 'dance' music such as DJ Shadow / Norman Cook / That-Australian-band-i-forget-the-name-of-with-the-video-of-wrkmen-emerging-in-a-ballet-school / The Verve on 'Bittersweet Symphony' where samples form the basis or even entirety of the creation?

Bear in mind, unlike Copey (maybe), I don't really care where you stand anymore (so that turned out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy - wyrd, huh?), but I am increasingly amused by your complicit public display of intransigent pouty nonsensical preposterousness.

Come on, folks, move along. Nothing to see here. Move along now. Don't be ghoulish. This is an accident, here. Move along.
 
 
Ganesh
12:22 / 06.10.05
It's allright.

Well, for me, "allright" means "wrong in the head". It's just my own perception, and you're free to believe otherwise, but nothing's going to change my mind on this.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
13:36 / 06.10.05
If I was to say, put a £50 note in front of you, would that change your mind?

Look at it, it want's you it does. I think i can hear it calling to you. Ssshhhh, listen....!!!!
 
 
Ganesh
14:26 / 06.10.05
Well, for me, "£50" means... oh, sod it.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
14:36 / 06.10.05
everyone has a price! You didn't even haggle!!
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
14:38 / 06.10.05
What a massive SELL OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!

:@)
 
 
haus of fraser
14:55 / 06.10.05
Ganesh -take the money, write a song about it, sing it to us and your no sellout man!
 
 
ZF!
15:01 / 06.10.05
This is just insane.

:-)

Z
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:04 / 06.10.05
As long as you play every instrument, write it, produce it, perform it, program it, engineer it, make all the tea, do the shopping, clean the lab afterwards, deliver it to the mastering rooms personally, master it, take it to the cutting rooms, which you own, cut it, deliver every single copy, personally, to the distributors (you), and get every copy into the shops yourself. Also, you should be the only one to ever buy it, because when other people like stuff you like it becomes TEH CR4P!!1!

Then, and only then, will you be able to adorm yourself with the label of a creative individual. An artist. Otherwise, you are a sellout sheeple and enjoy being anally raped by this guy:
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Regrettable Juvenilia
15:08 / 06.10.05
I'm this close to proposing that this thread be moved to Conversation.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
15:12 / 06.10.05
Oh really is that so Harold Bishop?

corrected post!
 
 
haus of fraser
15:17 / 06.10.05
that would seem a little extreme. Any ribbing that's been done has been vaguely on topic- and there are plenty of good arguments that can be linked back to this thread for future musical debates- to move it to conversation would effectively kill all of that...

However as we've now been told off by Mr Bishop i suggest that threadrot ends...
 
  

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