BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


My Technique is Unstoppable!

 
  

Page: 12(3)45

 
 
illmatic
16:18 / 07.11.06
Firstly, the law is the exact last thing you should worry about. The exact last thing.

Good Intentions (and you may well have 'em), with respect, that's bollocks. Any self-defence instructor worth, well anything should be familar with the laws of the land regarding assault and self-defence and should be able to instruct you in them, and how they apply to the situations you might face. For instance, not being familar with these laws is responsible for the lametable state of a lot of martial arts defences i.e. he strikes, then I block, which normally work as well as a chocolate fireguard. Familarity with UK Law will tell you that if - and only if - you are convinced you are in genuine danger, it is legal to strike first. Thus the doctrine of pre-emptive striking which is a lot more effective than having to defend yourself while someone is trying to hit you.

Another instance - if you have been involved in a real confrontation, you will required to give a statement to police. Knowing what to say here and how to present your case i.e. referring to genuine fear of an assault that was imminent may well save you from doing jail time. In the aftermath of a fight, the police will not normally look favourable upon the person left standing, unless he can convince them that he was not the aggressor which can be shall we say, an uphill struggle. Loudly proclaimeing your non-violent intentions and desire to be left alone before witnesses is also useful here if it's possible.

A final instance - knowing the laws about reasonable force. If you stamp on someone's ankle when they are unconscious, or otherwise incapciated, you will go to prison. If you carry out this ation and then cannot give a reasonable justification for it, one that emphasises, convincingly, why it was justified in the cause of your continued safey, then you are fucked, basically. UK Law states that you must cease any assault immediately when the threat is nullified. There's plenty of people doing time in UK prisons because they didn't heed this. Tony Martin is probably the most famous example of disproportionate use of force in the UK, but there's plenty of others.

As they saw, "ignorance of the law is no defence". If you're interested in self-defence, not being familar with the law is fucking stupid, to be frank.

As for your other criticisms, I find them nitpicking to be honest. You're ignoring what the video actually is, a short promotional tool for her, probably provided free of charge to give Video Jug some content. All it offers is brief coverage of some simple techniques. It's not "Definitve Street Fighting Vol 1" and doesn't deserve critque as such.

Does anyone here have experience of regular, life-or-death street fighting?

Good question. No, is the short answer. A couple of undignifed sprawling messes dating from before I started training, but twice in the last 18 years, I think (date I left school). But my "soft skills" and Run Fu have served me well several times since I began to take an interest in self-protection.

it strikes me that the best way to learn that would be from people who have been in real fights

That's always something that comes to mind for me as well. Unfortunately, the bulk of my training has not been with dangerous bruisers (the bit that has been was hella fun, though) so I take it in this light - "might work, as yet untested".
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:24 / 07.11.06
hmmm . . .I suspect the only real way to learn how to mess someone up in a real fight, is to get into alot of real fights. Martial arts training can help transfer theory into muscle memory and reflex. Boxing and sports fighting will train your body to endure excessive use under extreme situations. In the end, nothing's really going to teach you how to not flinch from a punch to the head like getting punched in the head; alot.

Many of the Bouncers I know don't really want to get into a fight. Most will count on greater size to intimidate and greater numbers to subdue. It's rare that they will let themselve get caught in a slugfest. More likely it's a grab and a toss.

"fight clubs" are growing in popularity just about all over the US. I would imagine the same is true for most other urbanized areas. With a bit of effort one can surly find the local pack of misanthropes and arrange a beating or a fight and even have it placed on Utube.
 
 
illmatic
19:12 / 07.11.06
Pegs, I know you have many contacts in the shadowy world of nightclub bouncers and bare-knuckle grapplers. Any recommendations?



This guy. Check the outfit. Wanna take a roundhouse to the face while he's wearing those bad boys? Fuggedaboutit.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:49 / 07.11.06
Isn't that the Question?
 
 
Good Intentions
23:50 / 07.11.06
I suspect the only real way to learn how to mess someone up in a real fight, is to get into alot of real fights.
I disagree. Firstly, this is at best learning through trial and error, and the stakes are rather disastrously high for that. Secondly, an art that does not prepare you for real fighting is a deficient art.

One of the people who does HEMA with me is Steve. We call him our "Real World Effectiveness Tester". Steve is a repo agent. Before that he was a bouncer and security guard (we also have another security guard, but Steve is far more in the line of fire). His experiences confirm the immense and immidiate rewards from doing real training in a real art.

For fuck's sake, don't go out into the streets and start fights. Fights are nasty and immensely dangerous and to be avoided.
 
 
Good Intentions
00:28 / 08.11.06
As they saw, "ignorance of the law is no defence". If you're interested in self-defence, not being familar with the law is fucking stupid, to be frank.
I am quite familiar with the law. All of that is irrelevant when push comes to shove.

There is only one way to fight, and that is to fight for your life. Going halfies is a very good way to get killed if the other party is serious. If the other party isn't serious, why the flying fuck are you in a fight?

The police are bastards and they intensely dislike other people infringing on their monopoly of force. But it's a surmountable problem. "It happened so fast" etc. etc. Everybody should know what they tell the police after breaking some guys elbow - I know what I will. No premeditation, just doing what I needed to protect myself, it happened so fast, what happened?

I am not advocating gratuitious harm to your opponent. Far, far from it. I subscribe to Cobb's Traverse as an effective tactic whenever possible. You should hit as hard as you can as fast as you can and get the blazes away. You definitely shouldn't stick around to cave in your opponent's ribs - you don't know if any of his friends is about to turn up. Thump him, dump him and move on.

But to worry about legal repurcussions is straight-out dangerous. I'll say it again: the only way to fight is to fight for your life. If you get attacked or cornered, do whatever you need to to get out. And get out. When you are in the line of fire, the only thing you can afford to keep on your mind is how to defend yourself. If you are too worried about not being an inconvenience to the police, you might find yourself being the last person to resort to violence, which will leave you hurt or dead.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:56 / 08.11.06
When I "mind-map" breaking other people's elbows, one of the WPCs investigating my fierce beatdown of a mugger (or perhaps a guy who was threatening ladies or kids with a blade) ends up going for dinner with me and then doing sex. With handcuffs!

However, back to reality, and Tricks' advice seems good. Except that, as Pegs says, blocking does nothing to slow down your opponent, and I take that to include blocking punches with your head. Therefore, it seems to me much more useful to learn how to punch people in the head.

As such, I'm looking for somebody to punch repeatedly in the head. I'm prepared to offer small cash incentives, but if you're just doing it for the money you might be out of luck, so a degree of self-disgust or perhaps a paraphilia of some sort - or just a philosophically different attitude to self-defence - might come in handy. London area, have own car, will travel but not outside M25. Sound good?
 
 
illmatic
09:04 / 08.11.06
I am quite familiar with the law. All of that is irrelevant when push comes to shove.

No, dude. I wasn't asking how much you know about the law. Above, you were responding to video link posted and you said firstly, the law is the exact last thing you should worry about. The exact last thing.Furthermore, you said your comments were in order of seriousness - I take this to mean that the videomaker has commited some kind of martials arts cardinal sin in mentioning legalities. Why it is a problem - when offering self defence training - to talk about legalities? You personally may know what to say after a fight, or where to stop it. However, there are plenty of people out there who don't know - why then is a serious problem, the exact last thing that these people should be told?

Fights don't exist in a social vacumn. More later.
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:33 / 08.11.06
For fuck's sake, don't go out into the streets and start fights. Fights are nasty and immensely dangerous and to be avoided.

I agree whole-heartedly, the best way to win a fight is to not get in one.

However . . .
Firstly, this is at best learning through trial and error, and the stakes are rather disastrously high for that. Secondly, an art that does not prepare you for real fighting is a deficient art.

To loosly quote Chin Wu founder Huo Yuan Jia . . . "there is no martial art that is better than another. Onlyt better fighters." Or something to that effect.

Yes there are arts out there that do not take certain factors into account. Some ignor the "realities" of grappling or ask you to achieve feat that are impossible with today's fashions.To put it extremely, GUN-fu will trump kung fu almost every time; If the goal is to defeat every foe, carry a gun. Not always realistic though.

Trial and error is a major factor of every martial art lesson. As Pegs mentioned earlier, there's nothing like repeated slaps to the head to correct one's blocking technique. It's in that light that I refered to learning to fight by fighting. With-in the context of learning a martial art this can be helped via sparring, and other training drills Chi Sau etc.

Still . . . a punch (or a kick) to the head is a shocking experience. Experiencing it for the fist time can pretty-much pull the fight out of someone even if the damage done is actually not that severe. Only after being punched (or kicked) an unspecified number of times will someone learn to differentiate between those strikes that do harm and those the merely hurt or shock. This is vital IMO if one intends to survive a fight.

So it comes back to the artist, not the art. The art can be perfect and complete but the artist can still get whupped if after getting punched once they revert to blind flailing. Conversely, a local tough can have no martial training what-so-ever and have taken enough blows to the head, face, balls to be completely unphased by Martial Artist's technique.

Let me take a moment to link to this video. It's frequently deconstructed on Martial arts forums. It may be interesting to break it down here.


as Pegs says, blocking does nothing to slow down your opponent, and I take that to include blocking punches with your head. Therefore, it seems to me much more useful to learn how to punch people in the head.


I suppose a block is only useful for increasing your hit ratio in relation to your foe. If you can block "better" than your foe, chances are you should be able to land more strikes. Only Homer Simpson can hope to win a fight by letting his foe get tired from constantly punching the head.

I'm looking for somebody to punch repeatedly in the head. I'm prepared to offer small cash incentives, but if you're just doing it for the money you might be out of luck, so a degree of self-disgust or perhaps a paraphilia of some sort - or just a philosophically different attitude to self-defence - might come in handy.

cute, but unless this fellow is also actively interested in punching you in the head during your sessions there will be little learned. However, there is something to be said for the conditioning earned by repeatedly punching something like a brick.
 
 
illmatic
16:59 / 08.11.06
Tricks, I've seen that video before. I think it's hilarous. The guy in the red T-shirt, what a clown, he deserves a slap just for taking that ridiculous stance. His style only "works" in so far as it intimidates the other guy and causes him to back off a little, rather than steaming in with aggression. If you watch the few seconds when they're actually in contact with each other, the stance has totally disappeared and it's all wild swinging haymakers. Red T shirt gets lucky and connects. It's an interesting how quicly anything resembling martial arts falls apart under pressure.
 
 
Proinsias
18:01 / 08.11.06
I certainly agree that there should be a legal aspect to self defence training but it's something that can be covered fairly swiftly near the begining of training and really only needs the occasional update or reminder.

Haus - It might even be worth looking into punching the person on the head with one hand and blocking with the other, or perhaps some art that will teach you the double palm strike(like a street fighter fireball!!) think of how much time you could save if each punch was effectively a double punch.

GI - With regards to the comment about needing to be in a clinch or grappling when in close range I'm not sure I understand, from what I've practiced, where the situation turns to grappling/clinch. By this I mean when training I would ideally like to have one forearm/wrist in contact with one or two of the opponents arms, this would be used to either feel if it was a good time to punch, if I had to trap or if I had to simply move something out of the way. Are you meaning it is safe when you have contact with your opponents body, aside from landing a punch, or only when you are in full lock/grapple type thing. I realise I'm probably not being very clear and will try to clarify any problems.

Mr Tricks - To loosly quote Chin Wu founder Huo Yuan Jia . . . "there is no martial art that is better than another. Onlyt better fighters." Or something to that effect.

Yeah definitely, but when wanting to learn it's worth remembering that there is a diifference between a great martial artist/fighter and a great teacher.

I've had some intertron problems lately, so I've not had much time to take in many of the links. I will rectify this soon.
 
 
illmatic
18:07 / 08.11.06
Proinsias - What, you mean that the legal aspect isn't the exact last thing we should teach someone?
 
 
Proinsias
18:22 / 08.11.06
Ah Christ, I really should use the preview button before posting.
 
 
Proinsias
18:26 / 08.11.06
Oh and apologies to all Christians offened by the above comment.
 
 
Good Intentions
23:05 / 08.11.06
So it comes back to the artist, not the art. The art can be perfect and complete but the artist can still get whupped if after getting punched once they revert to blind flailing. Conversely, a local tough can have no martial training what-so-ever and have taken enough blows to the head, face, balls to be completely unphased by Martial Artist's technique.
Certainly. But oneself being a better fighter can only be helped by not learning the bad habits that some arts have become.

It's less a matter of arts being all-round bad than them becoming optimised for a particul, non-martial context. Probably the single best example is fencing - foil and epee are both direct extensions of smallsword duelling, which was a fight with naked steel, and sabre fencing comes directly from the highest modern form of swordsmanship, the military sabre. Modern fencing, however, has been practiced solely as a sport for well over a hundred years, and the techniques and prtactice has changed as the type of actions that get rewarded have changed from surviving a duel with naked steel to scoring the points first.

I'm not saying that if someone beamed a perfect art (and in my - Silver's - terms there can and are a number of 'perfect' arts) he will instantly become unstoppable. And I learnt a lot from my background in boxing, where the art has been reduced to easily-overlooked rules-of-thumb.
 
 
Good Intentions
23:08 / 08.11.06
It's an interesting how quicly anything resembling martial arts falls apart under pressure.
In this case. The guy in red looks like he's imitating a movie. Both of them were pretty terrible. They look like they might consider Haus' offer, though.
 
 
Good Intentions
23:17 / 08.11.06
Above, you were responding to video link posted and you said firstly, the law is the exact last thing you should worry about. The exact last thing.Furthermore, you said your comments were in order of seriousness - I take this to mean that the videomaker has commited some kind of martials arts cardinal sin in mentioning legalities.

It was the most serious of a number of niggles, the only one even moderately serious. Unlike most self-defense tips, following hers would probably not get you killed. But it is a dangerous mistake to emphasise legal considerations when you are fighting for life and limb.

When you are defending yourself, the only, only, consideration must be your safety.

Just like I criticise the current wave of "brutal" martial arts (krav magah, etc) for losing track of the important things, I do the same for the opposite tendency.

Why it is a problem - when offering self defence training - to talk about legalities?
Time and place. By mentioning it, especially as prominently as she did, you are emphasising something which can only be detrimental to your ability to defend yourself.
 
 
Proinsias
23:24 / 08.11.06
When you are defending yourself, the only, only, consideration must be your safety.

I believe going to prison would seriously compromise my safety.
 
 
Good Intentions
23:44 / 08.11.06
With regards to the comment about needing to be in a clinch or grappling when in close range I'm not sure I understand, from what I've practiced, where the situation turns to grappling/clinch. By this I mean when training I would ideally like to have one forearm/wrist in contact with one or two of the opponents arms, this would be used to either feel if it was a good time to punch, if I had to trap or if I had to simply move something out of the way. Are you meaning it is safe when you have contact with your opponents body, aside from landing a punch, or only when you are in full lock/grapple type thing. I realise I'm probably not being very clear and will try to clarify any problems.

You're right that any contact is already a lot - any experienced grappler can feel every tensed muscle in your body if he has any grip on you, as I'm sure you know. It's also worth noting that Silver, who raves for half a book about how terrible it is that people don't wrestle anymore, has a system of grappling that consists of very little more than checking the opponent's weapon.

To be precise about it:
Having a hold on your opponent is always a good thing - if needed you can let, whereas getting a grip on someone can be difficult and dangerous. But if you let your opponent have a hand unencumbered, and that hand is within the space of time of hand, he can strike you before you manage a defense. If you have a grip on another part of his body he would need to be very good pull this off, but he could still manage it. This only counts within the space of time of hand (though it is a very dangerous game to be in the space of time of hand and body without some grip on your opponent) and only for entirely unencumbered opponents. If you have your arm in contact with his that already is (or can be) a grip/grapple/clinch of some sort. Not the type I'd like, but I probably fight differently to how you do, and I know there are arts that excel at exactly that type of thing.
 
 
Good Intentions
23:46 / 08.11.06
When you are defending yourself, the only, only, consideration must be your safety.
I believe going to prison would seriously compromise my safety.

Worrying about excessive force can very easily mean you won't even make it to the trial.

Of course, I am explicitely recommending people not use excessive force.
 
 
illmatic
04:53 / 09.11.06
Time and place. By mentioning it, especially as prominently as she did, you are emphasising something which can only be detrimental to your ability to defend yourself.

Dude that's bullshit.

1) The actual video mentions the law very briefly one sentence, in section two, alongside some video footage of "what not to do" before going into techniques that she tells you to apply "hard and fast" until you are safe. Could you explain to me how mentioning the law ONCE is making inappropriate advice "prominent", or are you simply (as I said) nitpicking in an attempt to establish yourself as an authority?

2) More generally - every prominent self-defence expert under the sun - and in this I only include people with extensive real world experience - mentions legalities in their work . This is because, unlike I supect yourself, they have used violence for real and have encountered the consequences of doing so. If you are teaching someone self-defence, you must emphasis that violence is a last resort that you may have to face legal consequences for. Anything else is, as I said, fucking stupid, and may lead to you going to prison. (And indeed, does lead to lots of people going to prison every year).

Obviously, this shouldn't compromise your ability to defend yourself if it does get physical. But if you actually WATCH THE VIDEO you'll be very hard pushed to find a place where she suggest so. If you still maintain there is one, perhaps you would be kind enough to point out where it is?

Worrying about excessive force can very easily mean you won't even make it to the trial.

Of course, I am explicitely recommending people not use excessive force.


Can anyone else spot the contradiction here?
 
 
illmatic
05:08 / 09.11.06
More generally and less annoyed:

A useful (if a bit daft) metaphor is that of a sandwich*.
One slice of bread = what precedes a potential violent encounter. This would include your "soft skills"/awareness of personal safety issues (might feature route planning, checking every person you pass etc), awareness of legal issues, verbal and conflict mangagement skills (ie how not to wind someone up so you end up inciting attacks etc etc), assertiveness. Anything that you might help you improve your personal safety.

The other slice of bread = post-conflict. This includes the impact of delayed shock and adrenaline, injury assessment, what to say to the police, consideration of revenge attacks or other comebacks. It might even include post-trauma counselling if you've come off badly.

The meat of the sandwich = any fighty fighty techniques. Most martial arts emphasis this section only, and often that quite badly. Any system that claims to be preparing you for a real world encounter should be dealing with these others two sides as well.

*The "sandwich idea" unashamedly stolen from Dave Turton.
 
 
illmatic
12:35 / 10.11.06
Mr Tricks

What did you think of the video then?

Incidentally one answer to the problem you posed above: I suspect the only real way to learn how to mess someone up in a real fight, is to get into alot of real fights. .. might be what is known as "padded assilant training" which is well, what it sounds it sounds like. A fully padded up attacker assaults/provokes you and you get to retailate at full force. I think this would be interesting for any martial artist because you get to see what works under pressure, and to experience the effects of adrenaline and the rapid pace of a realistic fight.

A few people run courses in this sort of thing - I think the best known is Peyton Quninn (good article here. Going on a course sounds a good way to go about it as training with people outside your school would avoid any unconscious compliance.

I haven't done this sort of thing myself but I'd like to sometime in the future.
 
 
illmatic
12:47 / 10.11.06
bTW, this is the sort of testing the Wing Chun guy upthread is doing.
 
 
Mr Tricks
17:20 / 10.11.06
    What did you think of the video then?


well in short that video was a remix of the "my hands are registered as deadly weapons" schtick.

Both guys seemed evenly matched in terms of physical size, health and temperment. While the one guy resorted to "street cred" to intimidate his foe the other countered with a little kung fu show.

His stance seemed decent, at a guess maybe he took a few Hung Ga or Choy Lay Fut classes. He obviously had no idea how to move around in such a "stance" and probably never considered that such a stance is meant to be a transitional movement rather than a starting point. And yes once the fight started any of that was out the window.

Still it worked to intimade the other guy. In what kind of fight does a foe wait for his opponent to tie his shoes and tighten his belt? Presumably is was a sort of duel of honor but more like a set of over inflated egos.

So he either landed more punches or got lucky and landed one strike to a vital area (more likely IMO). At a glance it looked like a shot to the carotid artery. How classic is it that a "Karate chop" to the neck takes the guy out? Dispite the slopiness of that fight, it could be presumed that those couple of classes our "kung fu" guy took were useful enough to give him a bit of confidance, and some theories on where and how to strike.
 
 
Grey Cell
21:53 / 10.11.06
What did you think of the video then?

Seen it before, discussed to death on various MA forums. The guy in the red shirt was indeed a beginner in some type of Kung Fu (can't remember exactly which, never really took an interest in it)

it could be presumed that those couple of classes our "kung fu" guy took were useful enough to give him a bit of confidance,

Unfortunately that confidence would not have stopped even a moderately-trained fighter from cleaning his clock. He was fortunate to run into a clown with more attitude than fighting skills.

In my experience, martial arts practice will indeed boost your overall confidence like few other things can, intially. But the martial ability to back it up takes a while longer to develop. It's the ultimate example of how a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing.
In the past couple of years I've seen several newbies enter the dojo one day looking like something the cat dragged in, because they got themselves into situations they couldn't handle. One brand-spanking-new yellow belt even tried to get his money back, because obviously "our shit didn't work" against that kickboxer he tried to pummel so he could impress his girlfriend.
 
 
Proinsias
00:16 / 11.11.06
I get the horrible feeling that the guy in the video has had his confidence boosted more than enough to get him into a heck of a lot of shit during his next disagreement, alternativley the guy has built up so much confidence he will put off the next half serious idiot he has an encounter with.

Either participent using the first slice of bread in pegs' sandwhich could have avioded the conflict.

GI It's easy to represent striking as a form of grappling

I'd been chewing over where striking ends and grappling begins for a few days. I reread this thread, came over the line above and again I'm confused. I'm thinking many of the problems I'm having digesting what you(GI) say is due to me being ignorant of the terms used in many european martial arts, I think many eastern arts blur the boundry between striking and grappling.

Mr Tricks:
As I understand it, the difference between Akido & Wing Chun can be expressed geometrically. Think of the difference between a circle and a triangle.

I've heard this before but it breaks down outwith the surface level:Aikido goes in circles, wing chun in straight lines.
In wing chun there is a great emphasis on circles. It appears to be based on straight lines only but in fact uses circles in a typically obsessive efficient way, the use of quite small arcs is paramount in redirecting force and generating power. This is what appeals to me, the fact that Aikido doesn't stop with a small arc but keeps it going, in using Aikido as a progression of what I do.
 
 
illmatic
17:11 / 11.11.06
Still it worked to intimade the other guy. In what kind of fight does a foe wait for his opponent to tie his shoes and tighten his belt? Presumably is was a sort of duel of honor but more like a set of over inflated egos.

I thought this was quite an interesting moment, actually, perhaps more interesting than the actual fight! I thought this pause showed he (black t shirt) didn't really want to fight, and would have taken any face saving "honourable exit" the other guy offered him. Like a lot of aggressors, he was looking for a victim rather than a fight. However, I don't think he could face backing down in front of an audience. Overinflated egos is right. Pair of dicks.

I guess you can take from it "learn how to give aggessors an exit that doesn't humilate them", and if that fails INTIMIDATE!

The actual blow looked more like a punch than a chop to me, and I'm guessing it was lucky, rather than targeted, as the whole thing seems pretty random. I might be wrong. Cartoid artery or jaw, I think.
 
 
Good Intentions
04:37 / 13.11.06
Worrying about excessive force can very easily mean you won't even make it to the trial.

Of course, I am explicitely recommending people not use excessive force.


False dilemma. Me recommending someone to not go out of their way to not hurt someone does not mean I encourage them to hit their incapacitated opponents with heavy objects.
 
 
Good Intentions
04:46 / 13.11.06
Obviously, this shouldn't compromise your ability to defend yourself if it does get physical.
This is exactly what I am saying. Nothing more, nothing less

But if you actually WATCH THE VIDEO you'll be very hard pushed to find a place where she suggest so.
I'd have been a good deal unkinder than I was if she did. I did watch the video. Perhaps you're being as excessively belligerent at deflating me as I perhaps am at making myself appear big? I think rather we should avoid the dilemma of reading each other in the unkindest way possible.
Her warning against excessive force left a bad taste in my mouth. It was too prominently mentioned in a case where it is of a lesser concern - a women defending herself against a stronger aggressor, in my reading - and rubbed me the wrong way.

If I was really nitpicking I'd have pointed out that ripping off someone's ear doesn't actually incapacitate him. Also, in most cases I wouldn't at all attack someone I've put to ground, rather using my head start, and his very real shock at being upside down, to get away. But I understand her motivation in doing what she did in the video.
 
 
Good Intentions
05:01 / 13.11.06
GI It's easy to represent striking as a form of grappling

I'd been chewing over where striking ends and grappling begins for a few days. I reread this thread, came over the line above and again I'm confused. I'm thinking many of the problems I'm having digesting what you(GI) say is due to me being ignorant of the terms used in many european martial arts, I think many eastern arts blur the boundry between striking and grappling.


Well, I expect the things I'm saying here to be hard to digest. The entire HEMA movement, a few thousand interpreters strong, have been trying for decades to understand the sources we have and reconstruct these arts. They're not easy to digest. What I've given here is some parts of my interpretation of these sources.

From the Renaissance onwards grappling became strongly disemphasised in Europe, with only some grappling arts surviving and they only on the fringe (catch wrestling is a good example). I put this down to the domination of light fencing weapons in the battlefield (the military sabre, cutlass, etc) and duelling ground (rapier, smallsword, etc), where grappling isn't as important. So, from about 1600 onwards, the split between striking and grappling is very strongly made since the mindset becomes very striking-dominated and grappling becomes something strange.

But the medieval arts are built from grappling upwards, with wrestling being an important folk-sport in many parts of Europe. Here strikes are mostly used as a preparation for a clinch, and their forms betray this heritage (in ringen - German medieval wrestling - strikes are almost always made on the pass... imagine that in the modern boxing ring). But the framework for grappling allows for striking and can lead to a very sophisticated understanding of striking (Fiori dei' Liberi, with his Flos Duellatorum, is an excellent example) since grappling is all about the manipulation of your weight/strength and thereby that of your opponent. But if striking is your starting point the vast bulk of an understanding of grappling is unnecessary, time studying could rather be spent learning to strike better. Boxing is the best example of that - the art has almost entirely disappeared from it, but boxers are by far the hardest hitters in the world.
 
 
illmatic
07:33 / 13.11.06
I think rather we should avoid the dilemma of reading each other in the unkindest way possible.

Fair enough. I was reading your comments as the product of "not created here" school of martial arts criticism (found all over the internet), "I didn't post the link/It's not my style/I've never heard of the technique, therefore I'll slag it off and nitpick to pieces", thus my annoyance. As this dwasn't your intention, my apologies.

Onto other matters. I got some bumph through the post which might interest you or others in HEMA. Dave Turton (interview link upthread) has released a new DVD set on the "lost arts". 7 DVDs, subjects on Pugilism, Purring, Lancashire Catch, Cudgel and Short stick/sword and several others. I can't recall what exactly as the advertising copy is so bad it made my eyes burn, and I had to throw the advert away, but it sounds fascinating. I would love to see it, but it's very expensive.

The company that do 'em don't have a website unfortunately, but they'll be ads in the British martial arts press soon, I should imagine.
 
 
illmatic
18:17 / 13.11.06
Oh, and the other thing, why I was annoyed... I sincerely think that if you are interested in self-defence, as opposed to getting good at a martial discipline, you owe it to yourself to make a study of both the build up to, and the consequences of, violence.

I mentioned that I think my "soft skills" and awareness of fight/crime rituals have got me out of some situations that could have gone bad. I can think at least three offhand, though there's probably more. Studying this stuff is just as important if not more so, than studying martial arts. Same goes for the post-violence strategies. This is why your comments about the video irked me.
 
 
Good Intentions
23:47 / 13.11.06
I don't know any catch wrestling, but the demonstrations thereof I've seen have been hugely impressive. I've done a bit of cudgel work (a solid amount of La Canne and all of 2 hours at the shillelagh), and single-stick is a lot of fun and very, very useful. I don't know what purring is, and I know a heap of pugilistic systems but only know two. HEMA DVDs are very hit-and-miss, in my experience: The Ochs group have released a DVD on the Lichtenauer system which is widely lauded (I haven't seen it), but most DVDs of the medieval arts look like people doing modern techniques in SCA costumes.

I'll ask my UK HEMA contacts if they've seen this disc. Thanks for the heads up.
 
 
illmatic
06:27 / 14.11.06
It has just come out - I'm on their (NAP's) mailing list. Adverts will probably start circulating soon, but the company copywriter is insane, so that might put people off.

Purring was a kicking art/sport. The NAP publicity came with a photo of someone's damaged shins! Don't know much about it beyond that.
 
  

Page: 12(3)45

 
  
Add Your Reply