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My Technique is Unstoppable!

 
  

Page: 1(2)345

 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:59 / 27.10.06
Can anyone tell me more about Wing Chun? I've decided to take up something martial artsy in the, er, quest to be more self-aware/fit/focused. I could train in Aikido, and have previously, but I like the physicality of boxing and kicking. There's a Wing Chun school quote close by.... But I hardly know anything about it. Other than that Bruce Lee practiced what had been a form of Wing Chun, and that it was founded by a woman.
 
 
grant
13:51 / 27.10.06
My file card on Wing Chun is that it's something like tai chi for people who actually hit people. I realize this is pretty damn incomplete, however you're bound to find more about it (and about everything else covered in this thread) over here, at the Kung Fu Magazine forums. Of course, it's heavy on the kung fu, but there's plenty of decent insight on everything from street fighting to acupuncture.

Barbelith user Mr. Tricks is a staffer on the site/magazine. And Gene Ching, editor/publisher, is a really cool guy.

----

Ballet dancers would destroy most people in a fight.

There was a ballet dancer at my tai chi classes. People used to roll their eyes at him all the time because while the rest of us were stretching, he'd be doing these huge freakin' leaps all over the place. Showoff.
 
 
HCE
14:05 / 28.10.06
I'm trying to digitize an old Wing Chun (spelled Ving Tsun in this case) tape I've got. I'll post it if I can.
 
 
illmatic
17:27 / 28.10.06
There's a cool clip of some very fast Wing Chun here

I don't know a lot about it but, from what I can recall, it includes lots of the type of move shown in the clip, which also work as blocks as well as strikes. IIRC it works by trapping and catching incoming strikes and sort of riding them back into one's opponent i.e trapping a hand and sliding back along the limb in a strike. This sounds a bit dodgy to me, but I may have it completely wrong. Centreline or "chain" punching is also included - very quick, alternating punches rising through one's centreline rather than coming from left or right like normal punches. Loads of these are thrown in quick succession up through the centre in a continuous movement, more to blitz and push back an opponent rather than knock them out. Hope this helps.

Where's Pronias gone?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
15:59 / 29.10.06
Thanks people. The Youtube clip was very enlightening. It seems like Wing Chun is a lot about hands and arms and less about using your whole body. Maybe I'll stick with aikido. I really need something fluid and whole-bodied: aikido is fantastic because even though you might not use it in a fight, and it's so gentle, every time you practice a defence technique, you take every movement to its final conclusion, on the floor. There's something very satisfying about being put on the floor 20 times every training session. (I'm kicking myself, because three years ago, I went to one fairly private training session with a kick-boxing instructor who was just marvellous. I don't think he's around anymore, or if he is, he definitely doesn't train where he used to. Damn.)

Perhaps I'm wrong, though, and Wing Chun techniques differ depending on the trainer. Have to check it out.
 
 
Proinsias
19:05 / 29.10.06
Where's Pronias gone?
Just back from a weekend at a caravan park, a present from the inlaws, I feel like I've left a little bit of my soul and my dignity behind.

Anyway back ontopic Wing Chun. The basic principles I have been taught are pretty much what pegs has outline:

1.Stay with what comes

2.Follow as it retreats

3.Strike when the hand is free.

This when put into practice means for me:

Utilising the centreline line as the main line of attack. The reasoning is that most things worth hitting are on the centreline of the body, although many people like to draw it around the abdomen area as there is not much point in hitting someones' six pack when there are far better bits at either side.

The three principles, from what I understand, are only to be used if you do not land the hit. If I try a straight punch to the face and encounter another limb along the way the idea is to feel the direction & energy of the limb then find the easiest way to move it out of the path between my fist and the opponents face. I would not conciously throw an attack or defence, I would throw my hand towards the target - if it hits it becomes an attack if it meets an obstacle it becomes a block.

Most of the videos around are of people doing chi sau(sticky hands) a training drill somewhat similar to Tai Chi's pushing hands but with more emphasis on speed and straight lines of attack. It is fantastic for training sensitivity. The main area used for sensitivity is the wrists - perhaps explaining my reluctance to were watches, wrisrbands of any bulky clothing. Using the wrists to feel enery, direction and tension allows me to make lighning fast decisions about wether to move, move with or move around a limb.

Disco mentions that it looks like wing chun does not really use the whole body, I'd have to agree but of course looks ain't everything. Wing Chuns' body mechanics are rather clinical and to the point. I realise I may be going over what is well known to many who do martial arts but here goes:

When moving, hitting, blocking or pulling wing chun favours speed and postioning. The punch should land whilst the wrist is moving upwards, the elbow joint straightening, the shoulder moving forwards, the hip rotating and the knees and ankles moving in way I can't quite descibe this means that the actual speed of the hand at impact is pretty fast and if it has a decent structuce behind it the opponent should feel like they've been hit by a fast move section of floor, or almost hit the floor with a whiplash effect if you're pulling. Orchastrating all this at the same time and using wing chuns minimum effort philosophy means it looks like we carry out very little movement at all.

If you want to be thrown on the floor stick with Aikido. If you like the idea of taking everything to it's conclusion any reasonably skilled wing chun instructor should be able to slap you repeatedly - it really is amazing how much 10 or 12 slaps to the same area of the face can improve your technique, although you'll probably require a few slaps to the other side of the face to retune the balance. Chi Sau is also very good at simulating various aspects of fighting at very high speed in reasonable safety, most clubs I know punch to the chest or use light slaps to the face.

The simplicity is also evident in the fact that there are only three hand forms:

1. Sil lim Tao. Done standing still moving only the arms. The fist third of this form is considered one of the most useful parts of any form in any martial art and will be taught in the first few lessons, well worth it. This form contains pretty much everything needed for one on one combat.

2. Chum Kui. Teaches foot work and how to use the body to generate power, as opposed to just a solid platform for punching from. Developed, I think, with more than one opponent in mind.

3. Biu Jee. Flee to this form if you fuck up. Much secrecy and hidden meaning surrounds this form, it was traditionaly only taught to the top students. As far as practice goes I only know this form on a fairly surface level, It helps me generate power..

There is also a wooden dummy form, probably only worth it if you have very regular access to a dummy. Butterfly knives and the six and half point pole, as there are only six and a half moves. Much of the weapon forms can be used empty handed and give another angle on the fighing. I appreciated doing a little of the knives and pole as I'd feel a little more comfortable picking up a makeshift weapon if the need arose and most importantly there's nothing like playing with an eight foot pole at sunrise/sunset.

Chain punches seem to one of the main selling points of wing chun, you certainly see people who've had two lessons come back after six months as chain punches saved their lives. I never seen them as much more than an emergency measure. If you've punched someone three times in a row at high speed and you have to keep puching you need to be remedying your rather shit punching ability.

I will now cease my monologue.

Good luck with whatever you choose Disco.

Last, but not least, I'd go with whatever art had an instructor I felt more inclined to train under.
 
 
Proinsias
00:08 / 30.10.06
Sorry, can't resist the double post.

A search for Yip Man on you tube should give an idea of the purest form of wing chun availible for viewing. The vids are not the most exciting but show the forms the way they should be done, there are alot of very flashy versions of the forms out there that I'm not really convinced by.

Also a wing chun magazine with some good info for free download. I thought I was going to pass out when I heard about the wing chun tea room website but, unfortunately it has feck all to do with tea.
 
 
Good Intentions
10:28 / 01.11.06
Speed kills.

Not your opponent, you. Trying to do things speedily will kill you.

Wing Chun is a fine martial art in my estimation, but too many of its practicioners get huge hang-ups about landing as many punches as possible as quickly as possible. Of course, the best thing to do after hitting someone is to hit him again, but concentrating on speed is not the best way to hit your opponent and it disastrously compromises your self defence.

Here's a little trick: stretch out your arm. Anything within that range you can hit at will, with no possible defense against it. This is what Silver called the time of the hand (one of the four true times - check out Paradoxes here for the full story). Many, too many martial arts consist of getting you into that range and then beating the crap out of your opponent - this is the trick of any "all-attack" system, because no defence is possible at this range, simply because you can throw a punch faster than someone can react... as long as you only move your hand. The moment you shift your body weight it becomes time of hand and body, which is defendable (not necessarily easily...). The best defence against a speed freak is to stay out of this range - luckily for you speed freaks tend to have a non-existent sense of space, and you can pop them as they come into time-of-hand range every time if you understand space and tempo.

In short, hitting someone fast does not impress me.
 
 
Good Intentions
10:34 / 01.11.06
Double posting again, sorry:

The important thing when trying to do things fast is to understand tempo. Every action takes a tempo: taking a step takes a tempo, so does punching on the pass and a quick slap. Some are finished quicker than others, sure, but if someone wastes a small tempo (like stomping his foot on the floor - the sound feint) you can use that tempo more constructively (like a lunging attack) quite safely, since he's busy doing something else. Haus and others with western fencing training should know what I'm talking about - this is the mainstay of all European fencing theory since at least the 16th century.
 
 
Proinsias
11:52 / 02.11.06
Here's a little trick: stretch out your arm. Anything within that range you can hit at will, with no possible defense against it

My brain is hurting, if the opponent is inside that distance then they can hit you with no defence possible either. I'm having visions of people beating each other to death as no one can stop a punch. Surely if your arms are at your side and the opponent has a guard up they have a reasonable chance of defence? If you are in that range and in contact with the opponents limb the chance of striking without defence is also greatly reduced - am I missing something fundamental?

My training was always to learn to throw a punch with resonable structuce at a reasonable speed from a static position. The hard bit is then learning to start moving the body only after the hand has moved and getting it into the best position possible in the short time before in lands. No telegraphing is a lifetime of refinement and balance.

The best defence against a speed freak is to stay out of this range

But surely to actually hit the speed freak you must be in this range, unless you attack hands and elbows. I appreciate the use of space & tempo but surely it is a little naive to assume that anyone trying hit you at a close range has no sence of space.

Speed kills

Surely just as often as really taking you time can kill. When you talk about defending against someone puching with their body behind it being not necessarily easy surely there is a rather large speed component to that?

Alot of the high speed traing in wing chun is ensure the pratitioner has plenty time in a real life, standard paced combat situation. If your are used to events unfolding at an incredible pace when a normal attack is thrown it feels like you have a little bit of luxury time. Perhaps akin to a boxer or mma fighter training for more rounds than they fight for so there's still some gas in the tank come the later rounds.

Much of the speed I'm referring to in my posts above is speed at the point of impact, the acceleration that is timed to be in the last inch or so of the punch. The best analogy I can think of is Bruce Lees' bullet theory - throwing a bullet at some does little damage, putting it in a gun and firing it at speed can make a little difference. This is the importance of speed - it is a huge component in the force of the impact and many systems employ it along with good stucture in place of using muscle power.

It's not really about hitting someone fast it's about doing maximum damage with minimun movement.

As far as I was aware Tai Chi has very large part of it's striking technique reliant on speed, It is simply that they pratice, mainly, in slow motion and wing chun practices, in one training technique, at fast forward speeds.

Cheers for the Silver link and the run down on tempo it's something I will have to take quite a while to properly digest and I may be back with quetions soon. My knowledge of any european weapons based arts amounts to no more than "I've seen it in a movie" and read some of Bruce Lees theory in conection with it.
 
 
Hieronymus
14:36 / 02.11.06
A friend of mine, who's a pretty prolific martial artist and has studied many, many schools is teaching me the Wu school of Tai Chi (which I'm really enjoying for its meditative qualities and fluidity) and this volcano of fighting called Baji. His training comes 5 people down from Li Chen Wu (Mao's bodyguard).

The essence of Baji Quan lies in "Jìn" (i.e. power or power methods). Unlike most western forms of martial arts which require swinging motion to create momentum. Most of Bajiquan's moves utilise a one hit push-strike from a very close distance. The bulk of the damage is dealt through the momentary acceleration that travels up from the waist to the limb and further magnified by the charging step "zhèn jiǎo". Jìn has many forms and is developed through many years of practice and "horse stance".

It's fucking incredible. You literally become a furnace of energy, breathing deep, fiery and loud like Darth Vader in a rage. And then channel that explosively in your very short but devastating strikes. To see my friend practice it is to see a skinny scarecrow become an earthshaking (no joke) mushroom cloud.
 
 
Good Intentions
21:47 / 02.11.06
My brain is hurting, if the opponent is inside that distance then they can hit you with no defence possible either.

Yes. All arts that are developed enough to have this sense of space and tempo discourage you from being within that distance unless you are in a bind (with weapons) or clinch with the opponent.

I'm having visions of people beating each other to death as no one can stop a punch.
This is what many fights actually are. Barefisted, however, you do not generate enough force with an action in time of hand to really hurt someone. But with a time of hand strike - sticking my thumb in your eye, poking you in your throat, giving a good prod to your solar plexus - I inconvenience you long enough to put in a more forceful strike using my body weight (time of hand and body), and I and a great many people can really, really hurt you with just one good punch.

If one has a weapon of any sort, however, time of hand attacks kill. Which makes being within that range even worse.

The reason slapfests don't happen all the time is because most people waste a tempo when they hit, doing a wind-up or drawing their hand back or something of the sort. This is wrong. By wasting this tempo you are inviting your opponent to hit you. In the Lichtenauer system there is actually an entire discipline based on exploiting such actions, called nachreisen ("travelling after"). The last master of that tradition, Joachim Meyer, said: "If you want to become a master at little cost, study nachreisen".

The reason it often looks like people are able to defend inside time of hand range is the equivalent of having a shield. Without augmenting your guard in some way (the large modern boxing gloves come to mind) you can strike around or inside any guard in time of hand. If we were together in person I'd show you. What a shield does is to remove any targets from time of hand range (I could hit your legs, but I'd need to move my body to do so, allowing you a time of hand action, or a smaller time of hand and body one, to attack me while I stupidly try to bend forward).
 
 
Good Intentions
21:53 / 02.11.06
The essence of Baji Quan lies in "Jìn" (i.e. power or power methods). Unlike most western forms of martial arts which require swinging motion to create momentum. Most of Bajiquan's moves utilise a one hit push-strike from a very close distance. The bulk of the damage is dealt through the momentary acceleration that travels up from the waist to the limb and further magnified by the charging step "zhèn jiǎo". Jìn has many forms and is developed through many years of practice and "horse stance".
Fair enough, and good on them. But western arts, and not only the old esoteric ones, don't believe in swinging to generate strength. Not even boxing does.

[From memory]
Interviewer:"So, Smokin' Joe, you had the best hook in the business. Any tips for any boxers watching?"
Joe Frazier:"I keep seeing these kids draw their hands back or drop their hands before they throw a hook. They don't need to do that: I just popped a hook out from where my hand was, and you know that I didn't just slap the other guy."
 
 
Proinsias
23:28 / 02.11.06
All arts that are developed enough to have this sense of space and tempo discourage you from being within that distance

From what I know Tai Chi has no problem with being in this range, awaiting conformation from any tai chi practitioners, and it would be a crying shame to call it underdeveopled if this is the case. On the other hand I could be very wrong.

But with a time of hand strike - sticking my thumb in your eye, poking you in your throat, giving a good prod to your solar plexus - I inconvenience you long enough to put in a more forceful strike using my body weight (time of hand and body), and I and a great many people can really, really hurt you with just one good punch.

This is what I'm trying to get at with:

The hard bit is then learning to start moving the body only after the hand has moved and getting it into the best position possible in the short time before in lands

Landing one asap and as soon as the first hit makes contact I'm in , or almost in, a much better position for the second and maybe third hits. So, yes I would try to throw all my strikes in a similar fashion it's just more likely the second & third will have a little more oomph as I've had time to get into a position where I can get much more power in the attack. The only thing you don't mention that I'd be mindful of is doing something to improve my body position while the strike is traveling through time of hand space*

I inconvenience you long enough to put in a more forceful strike using my body weight

Is there much difference between this and:

Many, too many martial arts consist of getting you into that range and then beating the crap out of your opponent

It sounds like you're talking about waiting until you're inside time of hand space, hitting the opponent and then really hurting them.

I and a great many people can really, really hurt you with just one good punch

I don't think I'd be hanging about any class that involves striking if the more advanced students were not able to do some serious damage with a srike.

I suspect the feeling you get when you here martial artists talk about speed is similar to what I feel when I here talk of putting body weight behind strikes - I appreciate its use on occasion but It can get one into seroius trouble and many people use it in such excess that they put themselves in real danger.


*does "time of hand space" make any sense?, I'm new to the phrase
 
 
*
01:24 / 03.11.06
From what I know Tai Chi has no problem with being in this range, awaiting conformation from any tai chi practitioners, and it would be a crying shame to call it underdeveopled if this is the case. On the other hand I could be very wrong.

Within arms' reach? Certainly. Shoulder against shoulder, if need be.

In this photo, take a look at how the practitioner has stepped inside a punch to catch the arm. The student's other hand and arm is free, but by locking the wrist, elbow, and shoulder, the practitioner has near total control over the body of his attacker. He has also shoulder and elbow-checked his attacker, or probably would have if this were a real fight. From here any number of things can happen— the arm can be broken in a number of places, the elbow to the solar plexus can be combined with a dislocation of the arm, a strike under the attacker's arm can affect the lungs and heart, or, as is most probable if the attacker is unskilled and not terribly determined and the practitioner is confident enough to try not to hurt them much, the held arm can be pinned and the attacker sent off gently but with sufficient force to propel him away. More forcefully but still without permanent damage, the attacker could be thrown to the ground. A strike with the attacker's free arm will not have much force, because the practitioner will be aware of the attempt and use his control of the attacker's biomechanics to hinder the attack.

If you can see your attacker and they can see you, you're inside striking range of something— even if it's a gun. It's important to know what you're in range of, and what techniques are effective at that range. Elbow techniques are effective only at elbow distance. But there's always an exception— elbow techniques are effective at kicking range if delivered to the leg the attacker tried to kick you with. In my opinion effective stand-alone arts are flexible enough to provide a practitioner with the tools they need to defend themselves at every possible range. Other arts are best learned in combination with ones that fill in their gaps.
 
 
illmatic
14:34 / 03.11.06
Hieroymous: Can your mate generate that power while moving? Or is it a tatic for use from a static position? Just ties in with some stuff I've read elsewhere (about the one inch punch etc)
 
 
illmatic
14:44 / 03.11.06
Wing Chun is a fine martial art in my estimation, but too many of its practicioners get huge hang-ups about landing as many punches as possible as quickly as possible. Of course, the best thing to do after hitting someone is to hit him again, but concentrating on speed is not the best way to hit your opponent and it disastrously compromises your self defence.

I disagree with this actually. Not in general terms but in specifics, with regard to the Wing Chun chain punching. It's an excellent technique for pushing back an opponent and doing damage to them, though I wouldn't can't speak for the rest of the techniques.(Note for those unfamilar - the stuff on the link above isn't chain punching). I know of several people who've used chain punching under pressure testing (from boxers, actually) and it's suceeded while the other Wing Chun stuff has failed. I think it largely works because of the explosive speed, the opponent doesn't get a chance to regain their composure.

Obviously, I don't think anyone should rely on - or any other single technique - alone, but I think this one is pretty worthwhile.
 
 
Hieronymus
15:47 / 03.11.06
Hieroymous: Can your mate generate that power while moving? Or is it a tatic for use from a static position? Just ties in with some stuff I've read elsewhere (about the one inch punch etc)

He'd probably give you a better answer than I could but from what I've seen, it's a lot of quick charges (the Keysi method reminds me of this) to close the distance between you and your opponent and get in very close for elbows and the like. But it's the combustible breath that seems so distinct to me.

He told a story that when his teacher was instructing him and two other students in the breathing, they stayed in horse stance for about 30 min, just focusing on the deep, furnace-like breathing and were drenched with sweat before they even took a single step.

I need to get him on here. He'd love this thread.
 
 
Hieronymus
16:00 / 03.11.06
Here are two vids on Baji, one of Xiao Baji and another from the Yunqiao school.
 
 
illmatic
16:37 / 03.11.06
Cool, cheers, however I can't pretend I know what they're doing so I can't really comment. I think I was flying down a blind alley with the one inch punch thing so ignore it.
 
 
illmatic
16:48 / 03.11.06
Copy of the account of Wing Chun pressure testing I was thinking of here. I rate the guy for putting his art - not to mention his ass - on the line in this manner. Also, he's open to critques of his art and new learning. Shows a lot of integrity, I think.
 
 
grant
17:03 / 03.11.06
Tai chi up close: old notes I took on nian jing, or "sticking energy."

The link in the first line still works, and goes to an essay with much more detail about fighting with tai chi chuan.
 
 
illmatic
19:11 / 03.11.06
Click here for some shots of absolutely devasting street effective defense. There's no coming back from this one.
 
 
Mr Tricks
21:03 / 03.11.06
LATE LATE LATE to getting back to this thread (end of the month deadlines). . . Let me jot down some of the replies I never got around to posting and then catch up. As grant mentioned(and thanks for the kind words), I work for KungFuMagazine.com Not only to we publish the magazine Kungfu-Tai Chi but our website has a HUGE kungfu/martial arts forum where allot of hardcore practitioners, scholars and masters hang out discuss and argue. Alot of answers can be found there to various degrees . . . Feel free to check it out.

    rm -rf ~/lekvarI just found out that there's an aikijitsu dojo in Berkely. I'd love to attend, but as you said, parenthood.


Berkeley like most of the San Francisco Bay Area is a literal goldmine for martial arts. Masters have been coming over from Asia for generations now much to the benefit of anyone who's interested. Are you referring to the school that's on Telegraph & 52nd street?

    Fred of the DeadI think the question of what's good for small people had come up before -- I believe somebody suggested muay thai?

Much credit to Pegs reply to just about all of this.
my 2 cents; one would have to be rather Hard Core to invest themselves into Muay Thai enough to use it outside a ring (IMO). Like learning boxing, it's very much about surviving the ring. However, any level of training will have the fundamental benefit of a stronger, faster body. In terms of abstract applicability (basic techniques quickly learned and of some potential use) I'd lean toward Wing Chun.


    ProinsiasI started doing Wing Chun under Sifu Paul Smith, who had a reasonably direct line to Yip Chun/Ching through Samuel Kwok. I really appreciate the directness and non-nonsence side of wing chun although it seems ot could do with some sort of grappling and groundfighting, from my very limited experience of Aikido I rekon it could make a rather nice partner. Wing Chun and Aikido seem to operate from very similar priciples of directness, simplicity and conservation of energy and come out with very different applications - the fact that wing chun uses very close quarter fighting could further help its integration with Aikdo.


I first started training in Wing Chun in Collage. I had come out of years in Jujitsu training so I can see allot of what you mean. While Akido and Jujitsu are different, I'd say they do share similar roots. As I understand it, the difference between Akido & Wing Chun can be expressed geometrically. Think of the difference between a circle and a triangle.

Where Akido (and I'm taking this supposition more form my understanding of it's similarity to Jujitsu + a handful of drop in classes) would move to redirect an attackers force, Wing Chun would deflect it while moving forward to strike. It's a subtle difference but as I was learning WC (and unlearning some JUJITSU habits) the difference became more and more clear. I've learned some serious grappling techniques, along side the chain-punches, here I'm thinking of being able to old 2 arms with 1. While full of tripping techniques WC does seem to rely on that triangle, so you might want to remain standing. Akido, like Jujitsu seems more willing to go to the ground; the most extreme example is of course the Brazilian Jujitsu which almost always goes there.

WRT Tai Chi... there are allot of different styles & sects. A good sifu in this matter would contribute major factors in unveiling the many nuances in that art. There are however similarities to WC that aren't initially apparent. Taiji has gain allot of traction with-in a Yoga type of context while the Quan or Taijiquan remains mostly unnoticed.

    Fred of the DeadI'm trying to digitize an old Wing Chun (spelled Ving Tsun in this case) tape I've got. I'll post it if I can.

While they look alot alike and reside side by side on the family tree... Most Ving Tsun school participants would make a point to point out the the differences between the 2 go farther than the spelling. This would be particularly true of Ving Tsun's Grandmaster Leung Ting (who's spoken at length on this here in the office)

    Disco is My Class War It seems like Wing Chun is a lot about hands and arms and less about using your whole body. Maybe I'll stick with aikido. I really need something fluid and whole-bodied: aikido is fantastic because even though you might not use it in a fight, and it's so gentle, every time you practice a defence technique, you take every movement to its final conclusion, on the floor.


While what Pegs has been saying isn't incorrect I'd propose there's more to WC then that. There is an "internal" Qi cultivation aspect that not all Sifus will share. I'd consider the footwork subtle but no less important. Not only is the WC fighter coming from their centerline with their force they are also actively evading their opponent's center line.This can be achieved on a sort of 2 dimensional plane the front "point" of your triangle cracking any of the flat sides of your opponent. It can also be applied by via Chin na where a trapped limb is torqued to the point of breaking or leading the foe's upper body into an upcoming kick, then ultimately the floor.
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:49 / 03.11.06
MMMkay, here's an article featuring Chen Taijiquan superbadass Ren Guangyi. Not only is he a world champion he's the disciple of Chen Taiji's grandmaster and direct descendant to the art's originator. He's also a really cool guy who's currently training people like Lou Reed and Hugh Jackman. I took a mind blowing seminar from him a few years back and I'm still unpacking his lessons.
picking up from here Id started I suspect Taiji, Wing Chun and other such "inside arts" seek to function on 2 levels.
  1. maintaining one's "center" while crossing the "gates" or "bridges" that will ultimately connect 2 foes. Up until that point the key to to guard one's personal gates, though proper stance and attention. It's this area where "soft self defence" works best and in an ideal situation the novice would seek to keep distance and awareness enough to never have to deal with that "crossing." In essence avoiding the actual fight.

  2. 2) Controlling the gate and knowing force, Once inside these arts seem to be about maintaining contact and through contact knowing the force the foe has. Not just where this foe intends to direct his force but knowing when and from where it will come. This insight allows one to use less of their own force in a significantly more efficient way. The strike is delivered over a smaller distance but with greater accuracy, resulting in greater impact. It doesn't mater if it's WC's 1-inch punch or Tajij's Fajing, they both deliver impact greater than the distance they travel. While the foe could deliver strikes that hit, they would ultimately be expending more energy to do so and to a much lesser effect


  3. As I understand it at least.
 
 
Good Intentions
03:55 / 04.11.06
All arts that are developed enough to have this sense of space and tempo discourage you from being within that distance
From what I know Tai Chi has no problem with being in this range, awaiting conformation from any tai chi practitioners, and it would be a crying shame to call it underdeveopled if this is the case. On the other hand I could be very wrong.

You can't be in this range without being in a clinch or bind - what idperfections described is coming into a clinch/grapple with the opponent where it isn't possible for him to attack you. The problem with being within the space of time of hand is that you can't defend an attack, a problem which doesn't exist when your opponent can't attack. This is one of the reasons grappling is of such immense importance. I can't think of a reason the grappling of a trapping art like Wing Chun wouldn't suffice to make oneself safe.

And this is the overriding concern - no art can be worthwhile if practicing it does not make one safe. The first and only aim of martial art is defence.

The hard bit is then learning to start moving the body only after the hand has moved and getting it into the best position possible in the short time before in lands
This is exactly the type of strike we use in the Western arts, but we have a wider range of attacks than you describe - those that use only the arm (time of hand), those that also use body weight (time of hand and body), those that are done while lunging forwards (time of hand, body and foot) and that done while passing (time of hand, body and feet).

Landing one asap and as soon as the first hit makes contact I'm in , or almost in, a much better position for the second and maybe third hits. So, yes I would try to throw all my strikes in a similar fashion it's just more likely the second & third will have a little more oomph as I've had time to get into a position where I can get much more power in the attack.
A more precise delimination is helpful. The first strike is only in time of hand. The subsequent ones are in time of hand and body.

The only thing you don't mention that I'd be mindful of is doing something to improve my body position while the strike is traveling through time of hand space
This is what good form is for. This isn't quite the occasional to go into the minutae of techniques, not when I'm only describing the framework of time and space of the Western arts.

I inconvenience you long enough to put in a more forceful strike using my body weight
Is there much difference between this and:
Many, too many martial arts consist of getting you into that range and then beating the crap out of your opponent
It sounds like you're talking about waiting until you're inside time of hand space, hitting the opponent and then really hurting them.

The difference is between life and death. I will never willingly allow my opponent inside the space of time of hand. I'll very happily bring him into that space on my terms - that is what wrestling is for - but that is something entirely different. I was describing why it isn't safe to stay in this range - as Silver put's it, the first person who thinks of attacking defeats the other. This is why the chain-punch succeeds - because inside that space there is no defence and attacks rule supreme. My defence against the chain-punch and other speed-demon techniques is to incapacitate you as you enter the space of time of hand. Entering that space takes a tempo. Starting an attack takes a tempo. But striking someone as they enter distance takes only one.

What you see in the Western arts, up until very modern boxing (1940s or so) where one can survive inside the space of time of hand, is the exclusive use of space-closing attacks, in the middle ages attacks on the pass, from the renaissance onward attacks on the lunge. This includes bareknuckle boxing. The kicking arts don't really neatly fit inside this taxonomy so in savate it isn't an issue, but in defence dans la rue you have three components: la boxe francaise (savate), la boxe anglaise (bareknuckle boxing) and le methode de Vignee (lethal use of the walking stick) where the other two components are both tied hand and foot tothis conception of space (but they don't use this meta-HEMA terminology, of course).
 
 
Good Intentions
04:10 / 04.11.06
Silver's (supremely useful) taxonomy of time and space is one of crossing distance. Each time has a distance one can cover within that tempo - with time of hand that is the distance you can reach by stretching out your arm, in time of hand and body the distance you can reach with a body lean, in time of hand, body and foot the distance of your best lunge, in time of hand, body and feet the distance you can cover in one step (putting the one foot in front of another is the border between time of ... foot and time of ... feet). It is worthwhile to again say that a martial tempo is not a fixed time increment but like a 'tick' of variable length.
 
 
Good Intentions
04:17 / 04.11.06
Oh yes, an there are the 'false times', when someone covers less distance within a tempo than he would optimally be able to. For someone who is sensitive to the 'true times' (the taxonomy of time and space) it becomes trivial to exploit an opponent's use of false times. The best example for us empty-handed art users is the false time of time of body, consisting only of a body lean - a body dodge is a good example. While swaying away from attacks might frustrate an unskilled opponent, a skilled opponent will punish this behaviour by 'chasing' the swayer, 'upgrading' his time of whatever attack to a time of whatever + 1 allowing him to close the distance of the dodge and striking home, because the dodger has thrown away the extra defense that he could have had had he used his 'free' hand movement afforded by the slower movement of his body. One of the reasons the Dempsey Roll was so devestating is because Jack Dempsey didn't just sway, he punched, a 'free action' after you've committed to the body movement. This is also why it is always better to throw a hook than to sway away.
 
 
illmatic
10:47 / 04.11.06
Cheers for the compliment, Tricks.

There's a nice women's self-defence video here from London based instructor Debi Stevens. I like it 'cos it isn't "martial arts" - it's much more sensible, simple self-protection stuff. Her website is here and the training company she runs tends to stick to this approach - tbh, this is the sort of stuff I'd like to recommend to Fred, but I know nothing in her area. Clicking around her site for five minutes shows up the difference between self-protection and martial arts, I think.

Not knocking MA, I love it, and have respect for anyone who trains. It's just that they can make simple subjects rather arcane....
 
 
HCE
07:02 / 05.11.06
Thanks a lot, Pegs and everybody -- and hi Mr Tricks!

I haven't been able to actually do anything for a few weeks now because of the knee problem that won't quit, but I am following the discussion here with great interest.

Thanks very much, everyone.
 
 
Mr Tricks
17:01 / 06.11.06
Hiya FRED . . . it's been a while eh? glad this dialogue's of interest and hopefully inspiring to you.

A couple of Martial Artists in the Southern California area you might want to look up.

Sifu Todd Shawn Tei is a nice guy. He's made some headway in women's self defence classes. He's not Chinese which some people tend to hold against him.

Buck Sam Kong is an old school traditional Master. While getting a class directly from him would probably be expensive and not recomended for the novice his studants are extremely loyal. Being very traditional you can probably count of a high degree of compitance from anyone teaching under him.

There certainly are many other teacher in an area as large as that. Those are just 2 people I've personally met. Wing Chun, we've been discussing at length, much to the credit of PEGS. Hung Ga is considerably different and I would also mention it in the light of the question of Body type. It's an art that large people can use to very great effect.

Still I know women to practice it with a great effect on their attidude on self defence.

If you are truely determined to find a suitable teacher (sifu), Then I would suggest you joing theKung Fu Magazine Forum and ask your questions there. lots of members are teacher in their own right and you could very probably get some solid recomendations from members of the community in your particular area.

Good Intentions, I continue to be blown away by what you're saying here as well. Just to throw it out there, what's your opinion on the MMA/wrestling "SHOOT" into a grab vs. say the long fist tendancy to keep the action almost always in the kicking range.

Also a quick tid-bit on TKD (tae Kwon Do) historicly this MA was develop for the express intention of dismounting Japanese cavalry. Hence the emphasis on flying, leaping kicks.
 
 
Good Intentions
22:48 / 06.11.06
Shoot-wrestling is great, but not the be-all and end-all. People who concentrate near-exclusively on shoot-wrestling (in MMA, normally) are doing themselves a disfavour on two fronts: firstly, they open themselves up for some terrible striking - the MMA guys get around this by shooting harder and faster, which leads to - secondly, they open themselves up for being countergrappled really badly. When you shoot you commit your bodyweight, and to an experienced grappler that is all he needs to turn you upside down. The best defence against being grappled remains to grapple back harder, so when the agent (the initiator) shoots at the patient (the target), and the patient doesn't take the natural reaction of trying to escape but instead stays his ground, it comes down to who's a better wrestler. And if the agent overcommits his body weight, like MMA guys do to avoid getting hit on the way in, it is that much easier for the patient to flip him over.

I'm more comfortable striking than grappling, but I'm a far better grappler than most people, so I'm comfortable allowing my opponent to come to me. If he sinks low into a shooting crouch I'll make use of his immobility (in any direction other than forwards and down) and kick his legs out from under him at long range with coups de grace, and it will be a very short fight. If he rushes at me and shoots for my knees I'll pivot on my left leg and place my right hand inverted behind his head to guide him down and outwards (one tempo: time of hand, body and foot to his time of hand, body and feet) to steal a tempo from him (that phrase describes the very keystone of grappling, all of which must be done on tempos taken from the opponent - there's a book in that phrase), and as he readjusts to where I am and regains his balance I place my other hand inverted under his ass (or below his knee, or grab his belt) and lift with my left, press down with my right and flip him onto his head. That will also be a short fight.
 
 
Good Intentions
22:51 / 06.11.06
To long fist practicioners I say: you must be able to fight at every range.

As for TKD, it isn't the flying kicks that bother me (though I'd be careful about talking of the history of TKD or any other modern martial art) but the fact that they don't understand balance and have a really shoddy grasp on space. No art which requires an equal weight distribution understands balance.
 
 
Good Intentions
23:03 / 06.11.06

There's a nice women's self-defence video here from London based instructor Debi Stevens.


A few comments, in order of seriousness:

Firstly, the law is the exact last thing you should worry about. The exact last thing.

Secondly, I'd always use two feet when stomping. And I wouldn't hesitate to stomp on someone's chest, with two feet. But hammer the first thing that comes available.

Thirdly, she did the face claw admirably, but didn't give the instructions that would make someone watching the video do the same. When you manipulate your opponent's body you don't push or pull in a straight line, but around a circle, in arcs. You saw the way the patient's head moved back and away from her hand, and upwards? What she did was to move him off his stable base: people easily resist linear movement, they're designed to do so, but by moving on the circle you nudge them off their center of gravity. She moved him along two circles (vertical and horizontal), which is great, and towards the point of least comfort for a person, above and behind him, which is even better. She should have said "push back, across and up".

Fourth: It's no good saying "knee someone" and not telling them how. Same with kicking shins. And since you're willing to break your attacker's ankle (good on you) you might as well show the coup de talon.

The coup de talon: place your foot on the top of your opponent's, wrapping the ball of your foot around his ankle. Then, throw your weight onto the ball of your foot as you try to put it where the heel of his foot is. As you succeed you will break his ankle. This is best performed right after a kick to his shin or knee, by sliding your kicking foot onto the foot of the leg you targeted.

Not knocking MA, I love it, and have respect for anyone who trains. It's just that they can make simple subjects rather arcane....
Doing it wrong gets you killed. Most self-defense courses would get their students killed if push comes to shove.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:15 / 07.11.06
Does anyone here have experience of regular, life-or-death street fighting? I think I'm increasingly realising that what I'm looking for is the ability to mess people up really badly, and it strikes me that the best way to learn that would be from people who have been in real fights. Pegs, I know you have many contacts in the shadowy world of nightclub bouncers and bare-knuckle grapplers. Any recommendations?
 
  

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