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My Technique is Unstoppable!

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
illmatic
08:29 / 26.11.06
Okay, an attempt to revive this thread...

A question, for those of you who train. What would you do against a knife weilding attacker? We can assume different scenarios - someone making a reach for what might be a weapon, someone with a knife deployed in threat and someone actually trying to stab you. I'm asking this I wonder how your respective arts deal with this hypothetical but increasinly likely scenario in training.

Personally, I like Geoff Thompson's response to the question "What would do against a knife?", his answer being "About 50 miles an hour!", which seems a fundamentally sensible response.

BTW, I don't have any kind of "answer" to this myself. Neither do most martial arts that I'm aware of.
 
 
jrcoup1
01:33 / 02.12.06
Hello,

I've been doing shotokan for a few years now and I have a couple of ideas about the phenomenon that Proinsias points out:

"... the beginners are all in horse type stances doing fairly solid looking movements and the high grade fighters seem to float around like Bruce Lee lightly slapping roundhouse kicks out of the way. Do they take you to a certain level and the tell you how to actually fight?"

The deep stances and solid movements are mainly about achieving physical development during training. The exaggerated movements increase flexibility and muscle strength. I once heard this described as "geometric karate" which seems to cature the mechanical, solid aspects quite well. At the other end of the scale much competitive karate (kumite) is fought as light contact where power (and some would say technique) are sacrificed for speed, indeed heavy contact could get you disqualified. I've heard this called "sports karate" by quite a few colleagues.

In our dojo we try to develop mobility with a shorter front stance and a bend in the back knee whilst aiming to maintain good spirit, power and technique.

Other dojos in the association make a lot of use of kibidachi stance to increase their mobility.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
05:18 / 02.12.06
Ok, a general question; I'd like my hands to become deadly weapons, but a lot of the time it's all I can do to get out of bed in the morning. But I feel as if I should do something ... Accordingly, which martial arts discipline would be the one to pursue, under the circumstances?
 
 
*
16:00 / 02.12.06
Eggs: Assuming that there's no way you can get away or end the conflict, which is what I would try first, I'd reach for a weapon with more distance and try to take out the weapon hand. A chair would probably be a good choice if there's one nearby. Coats and jackets can be used to tangle up the weapon arm but you have to know how to do that using your bone shields so you only get cut where you can take it. Make peace with the fact that you're going to get cut and try to make sure you only get cut on the tops of your forearms, your shoulders, etc. so you're not as likely to bleed to death quickly and you can still fight. Use your bone shields to protect your tender bits.

In most situations though it is possible to just give the punk your wallet and thank the Divine for the experience.
 
 
Good Intentions
05:36 / 03.12.06
Well, yes. Obviously.

As to incapacitating your opponent: There's a technique I studied, called locking up, where you put your opponent in some type of bar, normally an arm-bar. I couldn't really understand the point of this, because: you're opponent is right next to you, and still has everything in working order, thus if your lock-up fails you have trouble right there standing next to you; and, you are fully occupied with keeping your opponent locked up, whereas I'm predisposed towards a thump-em-dump-em-move-on type of fight. So I played around with this technique until I could pull it off (in sparring conditions) all the time trying to understand why the immensely practically-minded masters included and recommended these techniques. But this particular technique - you end up with your opponent's arm stretched out in a reverse-elbow-lock across your chest, standing next to and slightly behind him - is devestating in how much control you gain over your opponent - it's simply staggering. I've managed to walk an unwilling opponent willy-nilly around, making him go to ground, making him stand up, even running him into a wall, while he's entirely helpless. Just to further drive home the point that one aims to make oneself safe, not to hamr the opponent.
 
 
Good Intentions
05:39 / 03.12.06
Now I can't see the post I posted that response to. Perhaps at the end of a different page? Oh well.
 
 
Good Intentions
05:49 / 03.12.06
If someone has a weapon, and you don't, get the blazes out of there. This is not the type of situation where you can afford to work at a disadvantage.

If you can't get away, get something solid between you and the attacker, and make sure you are on the other side of it at all times, till you can get away.

If you have to, have to fight, you need to go for a disarm, and quickly. There are reliable barehanded defenses against knife strikes, but someone can attack you repeatedly with it, and eventually you will be overwhelmed. So you use of these barehanded defenses to set up a disarm. This course of action is to be avoided at all costs, since the first rule of grappling is never to grapple against someone with a knife - he can kill you even if he isn't trying. Keeping this rule in mind, your disarm needs to be decisive in the extreme - I haven't been in this situation, but a friend of mine has, and his disarm (stock-standard reverse-elbow-lock) broke his assaillant's arm in three places (hand, wrist and elbow).

The other fighting option, better but also a bit unlikely, since you must see the guy coming, in which case you should have gotten away, is the savate one - keeping your opponent out of distance with long-range kicks. The coup de chase exists largely for this reason, where you disable your assailant's knees while keeping your torse out of knife range.
 
 
Good Intentions
05:50 / 03.12.06
Alex's father, I recommend aikido. One, you learn how to use your opponent's energy, two, your bruised bones will give you all the more incentive not to get out of bed.
 
 
Good Intentions
05:55 / 03.12.06
I wouldn't attack the knife-hand unless I had a blade of my own - striking a hand is simply not effective unless you have a honest-to-god weapon, or your opponent is an idiot with his knife in the Clench of Death. Never assume that your opponent is an idiot. Even if I had a weapon, I'd only strike his hand if he tried to thrust at me as I was attacking him (the old double-kill, remarkably popular for a lose-lose situation) or, more likely, he was leaving it out there to be hit. Probably the best example of how an understanding of time and space will keep you alive.

If I had a weapon, I would try to take my opponent down whatever way possible. Thankfully, these situations are very, very rare.
 
 
Ticker
13:42 / 16.01.07
I'm very excited by my new Aikido class! The local school has grown up using the very spiffy local YMCA and been around for almost 12 years. The head instructors are all women and the school prefers a non competitive approach. The school has a very cool relationship with a much bigger dojo in boston and there are many guest instructors.

I've been eyeing the flyers for a couple of years now but I've always had an inhibition about going and doing it. I realize it sounds silly but as my physical learning curve is a lot longer than other people's I always end up feeling like the worst student and a general bother. I'm starting to get this is some weird baggage and not reality but hey it takes time. What finally pushed me over the line was a combination of other people discussing martial arts and that the school offers a 8 week beginner's course.

My first class was sunday and the sensei is a very wonderful older woman. She is surrounded by this incredibly peaceful friendly vibe. All the traditions of the dojo were explained in terms of etiquette, school lineage and the history of aikido. Half of the class was comprised of senior students who were very welcoming and encouraging. It was really great to keep being reminded that it is okay not to know anything! Overall I was very impressed with the serene manner in which the demo'd attacks were transformed. There was a bit of sweat happening but the very playful joy of the senior students and sensei was the thing. It was a lot of fun to learn how to fall!

A group of my friends take jujitso and are all about the joint locks but I figure I spend a lot of my life falling down so I might as well learn how to do it properly.

As so much of the art seems to be working with another body I'm curious what people focus practicing solo on?
 
 
illmatic
15:42 / 16.01.07
Well done for taking the plunge, XK.

As so much of the art seems to be working with another body I'm curious what people focus practicing solo on?

Do you mean with Aki or people in general? I practice a lot solo myself but I think you're always at a bit of a disadvantage without feedback from another person. When practicing on my own, I work on my forms and trying to get the subtle body* movements correct, relaxed (when appropriate) and flowing in an unforced way into the next move. I try and coordinate this with my breathing and with the general principle of doing most with minimum effort, but this is hard to judge without the weight of a real person hanging off you. Anyhow, solo practice is fund with Ba Gua as the movements are of sufficient complexity to make this quite a challenge!

TBH, I see it as more an exercise in balance and coordination than getting ready to rumble.

*Not that sort of subtle body, XK.
 
 
grant
17:04 / 16.01.07
*Not that sort of subtle body, XK.

If you're doing ba gua, isn't it that sort of subtle body too?

Or did I just miss something....
 
 
Ticker
17:42 / 16.01.07
thanks!

Well I'm practicing the few solo moves I learned sunday mostly how to sitdown into a fall and then roll back up into a crouch. I love rolling on my spine though I have to use my yoga mat at home. After watching the senior students slamming about I can see what Good Intentions means about bruised bones!

After the 8 week course of being gangly puppies sprawling about on the mat making messes I believe we can start attending the regular practice nights. How often do you folk go to classes or practice with other people?

Also does anyone have any suggestions for a four eyes? Should I go get sport glasses or some such? I'm bat blind without me specs....
 
 
Ticker
22:14 / 16.01.07
my eye doc suggests contacts over the plastic visor gear of my youth. Says impact with a wee sliver of plastic on the eyeball is a lot less damaging then impact on a hard plastic cup around the socket.
 
 
Ticker
19:32 / 09.03.07
Anyone have suggestions on how to learn shikko? I've been trying to find a video clip online without much success.

It seems like one of the few things I can safely practice at home but I'd rather not rely on my memory of how it is supposed to look at this point.
 
 
Grey Cell
19:28 / 10.03.07
"As so much of the art seems to be working with another body I'm curious what people focus practicing solo on?"

Proper posture and movement, relaxation, breathing. Everything else comes from your partner, and training with an imaginary partner mostly just breeds bad habits.

"Anyone have suggestions on how to learn shikko? I've been trying to find a video clip online without much success."

After two months I expect you already learned the basics, but I'll repeat them anyway since it makes it easier for me to explain some other stuff too...

1. Sit down like you would in seiza, but stay on the ball of your foot (toes forward)

2. Left leg goes up and forward, like you would do when getting up. Knee in the air, foot ends up where the knee was (= more or less next to the other knee)

3. Move the right foot underneath your body, rotating on the knee, so that it goes right behind the foot that is facing forward. Both legs now make an almost 90° angle.

4. Keeping the left foot in place, your left knee goes back down, so your body moves forward with it. Now pull the right leg back into seiza position, so you end up back in the starting position.

5. Repeat the same steps, but now starting with the right leg. And so on...

Now, some important details:

While doing this, make sure your upper body stays straight up and facing forward (as much as possible anyway). Concentrate on something that is right in front of you, and keep watching that as you move forward — just like when doing techniques: keep your center facing your uke, always.

Basically, you should try to make the same kind of movement as when you're walking normally, except your legs are gone and your feet are now right underneath your hips. Don't lean on the knees, and don't jerk your upper body forward (monkey walk), just keep your centerline vertical and stable.

You can turn around by doing step 1 and 2, and then putting the knee that is pointing up down, while the oher goes up. As long as you only move your knees and don't twist your upper body, it wll automatically turn along. (it's kinda hard to explain, just try it...). Almost essential for doing suwariwaza techniques without stumbling over your own legs.

Also: don't overdo it. These exercises are very hard on the knees, especially when you don't have a tatami or kneepads. Quality > quantity.

The best things to practice when you're alone and at home are IMO weapon techniques — bokken exercises, jo kata, ...

I've trained with contact lenses for the past seven years, and lost only a few (and that only during really rough randori sessions). Keeping glasses on during practice is a bad idea, and having to put them on and off again inbetween exercises so you can see what your sensei is explaining is a hassle.

And finally, with regards to the earlier remarks about weapons, always keep in mind that the exercises in aikido training are, indeed, exercises, and not realistic at all, period. You can learn many things from them that will help you in real-life situations (both physical and otherwise), but don't make the mistake of wanting to do "dojo aikido" outside of the dojo.
 
 
Ticker
19:58 / 10.03.07
thank you Grey Cell! Arigato gozaimasu!

..and my mates do jujitsu so if I take my aikido out of the dojo chances are I'd end up in some complex painful wrist lock and forced to lick the sidewalk.
 
 
Ticker
20:37 / 27.05.07
Otay then it's been about 5 months of 2-3 classes a week for me. My forward rolls are improving if still a bit sloppy and my backrolls exist. I'm ok taking ukemi even if my breakfalls are sort of like throwing putty at the mat. Improvement is visible and my sensei is happy with my efforts.

Now there's a Summer Camp option of attending a week long seminar for all levels of Aikido coming up. Not too pricey and it comes highly recommended. I'm sort of on the fence about it. I can take the time off but I'm wondering if I'll get burned out practicing for eight hours (or at least 4+) a day for seven days. Or I could really get a handle on the rolls. After 2 1/2 hours of practice today I feel a bit sore but not beatdown.

Any long term practitions have any opinions on these long intensive training sessions?
 
 
illmatic
04:56 / 28.05.07
I've done a couple of week long retreats and well, what's not to love? You get to practice for four hours a day! And then some more while drunk in the evening!

Erm, more seriously, eight hours a day does sound a bit much, and would obviously increase the chance of injury. I'd check with your instructor to get a more accurate picture of the demands you'd be putting yourself under. I've always been fine with four hours, but my art isn't very hard contact. I am still tempted to say "go for it" regardless - your skills do improve a lot and it's a lot of fun. I was absolutely exhausted for two days following the first retreat I went to though.

One other problem is of course, that you get these sort of thought: "What if I practised all the time?I'd only have to leave my job, my partner and so forth and go and live in a monastery. Wouldn't take more than ten years.... is there any way that...." NO. STOP THESE THOUGHTS.
 
 
hachiman
02:41 / 04.06.07
Only if your under 25. Neal-Stephenson-rules.

:}
 
 
illmatic
08:48 / 15.06.07
Way of the Ninjab

I was really unsure where to put this - in threads about Islamophobia, the veil, in Conversation or what. It'll have to be here I guess. I'm a bit disturbed (but unsurprised) to hear that Islamophobic attacks have increased so hugely. It's good to read of people taking pro-active empowering action. I just hope the training is realistic.

More and more Muslim women are taking up martial arts. Is it because they are under increased attack? Sara Wajid attends a Ninjabi class to find out

Friday June 15, 2007
The Guardian


In a grim part of east London a powerful Somalian teen is giving me a beating while a friend eggs her on - they are both clearly enjoying themselves. As the blows rain down, I curse myself for responding to the advert for this unusual self-defence class at a Newham sports centre. "From the mean streets of London," it had read, "where Islamophobic attacks from chavs, hoodies and pervy so-called Muslim men have become increasingly common ... it's time our sisters stood up and defended their honour! Enter the Ninjabi."

Ninjabi is a play on the word hijabis - women who wear hijab. This six-week self-defence course for Muslim women was set up by a community group, Islamic Circles, in response to a growing demand for women-only classes and has attracted attention throughout the Muslim world. There are plans for follow-up courses, most titled in homage to Bruce Lee: Return of the Ninjabi, Way of the Ninjabi and (more Newham than Hong Kong) Ninjabi vs Minicabi.
Attending the class on a drizzly Saturday afternoon I find 30 young women jumping around energetically - the jilbab-wearers floating like black butterflies as they spar and dodge. The women are a mixture of young, British Asian mothers in M&S tracksuits and students in hijab'n'hoodie combos. One strikingly cool young woman could be the poster girl: her large, kohl-rimmed eyes are accentuated by the jet-black headscarf she's wearing, and the elaborate symbol emblazoned on the back of her matching hoodie is in Arabic script. "May Allah protect me from Satan," it reads.

The instructor, Dee Terret, talks us cheerfully through knee strikes to the groin and how to respond if an attacker grabs your headscarf - essentially, give it up. (She also advises that, on this basis, Velcro is a better bet than safety pins). At the end of the two-hour session we line up, cadet-style, put the moves together in sequence and shout in sync. It feels pretty good.

Similar classes have sprung up around the country in the past few years, in Leicester, Loughborough, Birmingham and Manchester. According to the Muslim Directory, a devout sister in London now has a whole range of fitness classes to choose from, including taekwondo in Bethnal Green, kickboxing in Harrow, "sisters' football" or a joyless-sounding "100% halal" music-free exercise session in Tottenham.

Why this surge of interest in self-defence though - does it reflect a need for young Muslim women to defend themselves from increased attacks? After all, in the three weeks following the 7/7 bombings the Metropolitan Police recorded 269 Islamophobic crimes, compared with 40 in the same period of 2004. Verbal abuse, spitting and pulling women's hijabs off were typical.

According to the Ninjabis, this phenomenon isn't a reaction to Islamophobia at all. They see self-defence classes simply as a normal part of any modern, independent urban woman's armoury. The only relevance their Muslim identity has is that they share a need for a women-only training space and a female instructor sensitive to their clothing restrictions. The fact that the community has the economic clout and initiative to make provision is a testimony to the growing influence and confidence of their generation. In London there are currently 296,606 muslim females and we're a fast-expanding market; 30,000 of those are less than four years old.

Uzma Naseem, a solicitor and mother who has been attending the classes, says: "It's not a question of being a Muslim woman, it's a question of being a woman and of self-protection generally ... It's hard for people to acknowledge that Muslim women need to go out and about in the city and be able to defend themselves. My mum's generation might think, 'Muslim women just go out with their men so they'll be protected.' But my generation is just so much more independent. It's not about being vulnerable women - it's just a good qualification to have." She plans to enrol her four-year-old daughter in martial arts classes as soon as possible.

Aisha Gill, chair of the Newham Asian Women's Project, a centre for domestic violence victims, welcomes the Ninjabis course. "This is an excellent idea because Muslim women are often seen as passive and submissive, as a problem within the Muslim world. Whereas I'm surrounded by young women who wear hijab as a symbol of freedom and with pride. This course would help build their identity and enhance their own safe spaces."

According to Rimla Akhtar, 24-year-old chair of the Muslim Women Sports Foundation (an organisation set up in 2001 to support elite British Muslim women athletes), an increasing number of Islamic societies on university campuses offer women-only self-defence, as do many mosques, but most mainstream leisure facilities have yet to catch up. She ascribes the interest to the growing popularity of self-defence for women, the Qur'anic emphasis on an individual's responsibility to look after the body, and the childhood influence of Jackie Chan films on second- and third-generation British Asians.

A straw poll I took of young British women wearing niqab and hijab in Brick Lane suggests the market for these classes could be huge. Most of the women were interested in taking them up, with only three exceptions. One said, "I don't need classes, I'd just give anyone who tries to give me any nonsense a good wallop - that's the way to deal with that!" A woman in niqab pushing a buggy had already done taekwondo so didn't feel the need. And the third, a 20-year-old student, had seven years of Shotokan karate under her purple belt - her main concern was simply to find a more advanced class.
 
 
Ticker
13:08 / 15.06.07
While the reasons why one would need to defend herself are depressing/enraging the thought of young women of any faith attending martial art classes enmasse is very exciting to me. Especially ones that are geared toward respecting the religious/cultural restrictions of the students.

Maybe my Heinlein 'losophy is showing but I would prefer to live in a world where people are taught they are strong and capable with the skills to manifest it.

On the subject of people tearing off the hijab, what kind of asshole shit behavior is that? I suppose this chunk should go into the Veil thread...

One other problem is of course, that you get these sort of thought: "What if I practised all the time?I'd only have to leave my job, my partner and so forth and go and live in a monastery. Wouldn't take more than ten years.... is there any way that...." NO. STOP THESE THOUGHTS.

Yes. It has happened and I reflected on my nonmonastic needs enough to nip it in the bud. Three nights a week plus seminars is going to have to do. I'm going to have to pass on the week long event this year due to family vaction obligations but there is always next year when I won't be so clumsy on the mat anyway.
 
 
Ticker
17:52 / 21.08.07
Um kind of a silly question but...

What do people do for a meal before going to their martial art class?

Being a high activity level time period I need something fueling me but not weighing me down or causing internal combustion. I've been experimenting with eating a few hours before but having mixed results.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
17:57 / 21.08.07
Quick question: what would you-all recommend for a 34-year-old man who is quite fit and has a vague interest in the martial* arts, but is about as flexible as a steel rod and has absolutely no desire to hit anyone ever, even in mock combat?

*mistyped as "marital". Freudian slip? Don't tell Kali!
 
 
Ticker
18:13 / 21.08.07
Well as one of the newly converted (8 months) I have to rave about Aikido as non violent non conflict centered martial art.

It's a really fantastic experience learning how to roll, fall, and put people in very interesting pins. My sensei explains having an attacker pinned to the floor is a great moment to have a quiet conversation about why they might want to reconsider their course of action.

So it's basically a peaceful but powerful means to protect yourself. It's also a HUGE amount of fun to play with other adults in a supportive learning environment. We learn a lot about welcoming energy that is thrown at you and blending with it. What you learn in the dojo you apply mentally out in the world.

Flexibility comes with practice.
 
 
Ticker
18:14 / 21.08.07
oh and it is non competitive and no solid hitting, it's more grappling.
 
 
grant
19:16 / 21.08.07
Matt: Also consider qi gong, which is a vague sort of term for any of a number of martial-arts-related exercises from China. You'll get a little more flexible, you won't have anybody trying to hit you. It's a lot like yoga (which is also related to some lesser-known Indian martial arts - as would be anything used to improve your body's efficiency, I bet).

I'm also a fan of tai chi, although the parts I like best are the pushing other people around parts. Gently. I've fallen badly out of practice, but still do a move or two while waiting around for things when I think no one's watching.
 
 
Ticker
19:18 / 21.08.07


I love the image of grant sneaking in some moves in line for the ATM.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
19:44 / 21.08.07
What do people do for a meal before going to their martial art class?

I was having similar trouble with my swimming class. I had trouble with almost everything filling me up too much.

You might actually want to try a fancy pants energy bar thing. They pack a lot of calories into not much food. And some of them aren't completely ridiculous price/content wise. Cliff and Luna bars come to mind.

I have friends who make a point of only going to their Muay Thai class when they're hungover, but I cannot imagine any rational reason.
 
 
Ticker
19:58 / 21.08.07
huh energy bar thingies... I have so many weird food reactions I'd probably have to either make them from scratch or get some crazy expensive hippy type.
How far in advance of the activity do you eat 'em? (and thanks!)

Anyone had luck with the smoothie route?

The peeps I know doing Muay Thai are tiny ass kicking girls. I can't imagine facing them hung over.
 
 
Grey Cell
07:50 / 13.09.07
I have friends who make a point of only going to their Muay Thai class when they're hungover, but I cannot imagine any rational reason.

We used to have a tradition where people were required to get roaring drunk the night before an upgrading test (all based on a somewhat misunderstood anecdote told by our sensei, but that's a different story).

After about an hour of vigorous hungover training and wishing for a mercy killing, you'll suddenly realize you have completely sweated out that hangover and are feeling light as a feather, ready to throw and pin Godzilla if need be. (That is, if you have the common sense to shower and empty your stomach before entering the dojo. Puking all over everything in the middle of your upgrading test is a definite no-no.)

Some people think it's worth it. Personally I don't agree, but it has become sort of a rite of passage and it's always hella fun in a twisted sort of way.

I never eat much before practice, but occasionally some slices of bread + jam or a fancy energy bar will help. Don't want any liquid stuff I can feel sloshing around in my stomach while breakfalling though (except in the summer or during Hungover Training where I'll sometimes drink some water halfway through the training to stay hydrated)
 
 
Ticker
14:20 / 09.01.08
I'm excited to say it's been a year of Aikido and I'm still loving it. Last night during practice I could tangibly see my improvement during techniques and my Sensei also commented. I'm scheduled to test in March with a lot of extra hours by then but I'm more focused on competency than rank. I'm finally getting comfortable with tsuki kotegaeshi so that leaves six more techniques to get comfy with before testing.

It's been very helpful to embrace the whole philosophy of the art rather than just the physical movements. Lot's of reading and talking to people and practice. I do wish my dojo could offer more classes but I'm once again looking at taking myself to our sister and mother dojos to get more time in per week.

I really appreciate the support I've gotten from other people encouraging me to keep trying even when I felt like a unskilled lump of a clumsy oaf. Thank ya!
 
 
Jackie Susann
18:07 / 14.02.08
I went to my first jujitsu class on Tuesday. It was supposed to be the beginner class but if it was really pitched at beginners, I felt like I needed the pre-beginners prep class. For two days afterwards, my back and ribs were just pulped from all the falling to the mat. I think I will go back at least once, even though I kind of hated it. Mostly because when you sign up, you get two classes for the price of one, and I hate to waste that kind of bargain.
 
 
grant
20:07 / 14.02.08
Did you do anything more than fall down? Joint locks or anything?
 
 
Jackie Susann
00:51 / 15.02.08
Ha, yeah, we did a couple of different takedowns, including one into an armbar. That was pretty rad. I was surprised that the technique for applying an armbar was relatively simple.
 
  

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